13110 52aesat1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 February 10, 2005 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13111 52aesat1 1 (Trial continuing) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: I have a note from the jury marked Court 4 Exhibit 161, 9:35 a.m., 10 February, 05. 5 Judge Koeltl, we, the jury, are ready to start 6 deliberating. Number 329. 7 Parties are welcome to inspect. 8 Mr. Fletcher will make copies of those other jury 9 notes that we should send to the jury. And when that's done, 10 we'll send a note with those notes to the jury. So I'll be 11 back before that happens. 12 Okay. See you later. 13 (Recess pending verdict) 14 (Time noted, 11:11 a.m.) 15 THE COURT: All right. Good morning. 16 I told you that I would go over the notes with you 17 before sending them to the jury, these notes being the notes 18 that the jury have sent to us so they wouldn't have them. 19 In collecting them, Mr. Fletcher raised the question 20 of what is number 157, which is not in this pile. Can the 21 parties check the transcript for what is 157, or maybe it's 22 just a number that we missed. 23 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: I did check the transcript this 24 morning, your Honor, and I can't find a 157. 25 THE COURT: Okay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13112 52aesat1 1 MR. DEMBER: I think that's right, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. So it's a number that was missed. 3 Okay. 4 Mr. Fletcher has given me a set of the notes. There 5 are two notes which are not in the group for the jury. The 6 jury has not seen them. They were marked as court exhibits. 7 They are 142 and 154. Those are the copies of the fliers. And 8 they've already been publicly reported, but not to the jury. 9 So they're not in the jury group. 10 The press already has copies of those. I have no 11 problem with including them in the of notes that we give to the 12 press, unless anyone has a different view? 13 MR. DEMBER: No, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: No. 15 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: No, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: There is one group of notes that was 17 included in your group, which I am inclined to leave out of the 18 group that goes to the jury, as well as the group of notes that 19 I make publicly available, because they involve personal juror 20 issues. And I believe that when I've had personal juror 21 issues, I've not named the individual jurors who were having 22 personal issues, whether it was the jurors who wanted to talk 23 to me or the jurors who had other personal situations that have 24 arisen in the course of deliberations. 25 And so I would tend to leave out this group of notes SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13113 52aesat1 1 that we send to the jury and make available numbers 140, 143, 2 144, 145 and 148. 3 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: We agree, your Honor. 4 MR. DEMBER: We agree, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. Then I'll give that group to 6 Mr. Fletcher and seal. 7 The group of notes that I would then send to the jury, 8 and you can all check your pile, and you can check the pile 9 that goes to the jury, too -- okay. The numbers are 128, 129, 10 131, 133, 136, 137, 138, 141, 146, 147, 149, 150, 151 and 153, 11 155, 158, 160, 161. And the set for the public includes also 12 142 and 154. 13 Does that correspond with what the parties have? 14 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: It does, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. I have a note for the jury, it 16 will be marked as Court Exhibit 163. 17 It reads: Members of the jury, as you previously 18 requested, I am sending you copies of the notes that you had 19 sent to us. I have excluded the copies of the notes we've 20 previously sent to you and notes that raised individual juror 21 issues. 22 Is that satisfactory? 23 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor. 24 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Please, go over the note and go over the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13114 52aesat1 1 attachments. 2 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: It's satisfactory, your Honor, to 3 admit to Mr. Fletcher. 4 THE COURT: The note to the jury will be marked as 5 Court Exhibit 162. 6 THE DEPUTY CLERK: To the marshal. 7 THE COURT: Court Exhibit 162, and attachments are 8 being given to the marshal to take in to the jurors. Here is 9 the set for the media. I've checked, it includes 142 and 154, 10 but the parties should double check. Mr. Fletcher will give it 11 to the press. 12 All right. Mr. Fletcher will give the notes to the 13 press. And I will see you later. The press has a copy of all 14 the other notes, but we didn't have a copy of the note we just 15 sent in to the jury. 16 Okay. 17 (Recess pending verdict) 18 (Luncheon adjournment) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13115 52aesat1 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 1:46 p.m. 3 (In open court; jury not present) 4 (A note was received at 1:46 p.m.) 5 THE COURT: I have a note from the jury. It will be 6 marked as 163. 7 I also have the envelope with respect to what appears 8 to be the same envelope with -- for the jury payroll clerk, 9 which will be given to Mr. Fletcher to give to the jury payroll 10 clerk, or Mr. Grate. 11 The note from the jury, 1:17, Judge Koeltl, the jury 12 has reached a verdict. Number 329. 13 The parties are welcome to inspect. And I'll take a 14 break. The marshal should call the van. 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we know how soon to be 16 back? 17 A MARSHAL: I'll let you know. If you just hang out 18 for one moment, I'll let you know. 19 THE COURT: Is it all right for the marshals to inform 20 you? 21 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. 22 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. 23 (Recess pending verdict) 24 THE COURT: I just wanted to let you know it will 25 probably be about 3:15 before the transportation is here, and I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13116 52aesat1 1 just wanted to let you all know that so that -- if you weren't 2 expecting it before that. 3 The other thing I wanted to mention to you, I asked 4 the marshal again to make sure that the back corridor is kept 5 quiet. As I sat in the robing room I heard a door go and 6 someone say thank you. I asked him please to keep that 7 corridor quiet. 8 And I will see you later. 9 (Recess pending verdict) 10 (In open court; time noted, 3:11 p.m.) 11 THE COURT: All right. Are we ready to bring in the 12 jury? Okay. Let's bring in the jury. 13 (In open court; jury present. Time noted, 3:15 p.m.) 14 THE COURT: Mr. Foreperson, I've received your note 15 indicating that the jury has reached a verdict. Have you 16 reached a verdict? 17 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Would you pass the verdict sheet up to 19 Mr. Fletcher. 20 (Pause) 21 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Foreperson, will you please 22 rise. And will you please answer your verdict as I question 23 you with regard to the matter of United States of America vs. 24 Ahmed Abdel Sattar, Lynne Stewart and Mohammed Yousry. 25 Count 1, conspiracy to defraud the United States, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13117 52aesat1 1 question one, how do you find the defendant Ahmed Abdel Sattar 2 with respect to Count 1? 3 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 4 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Question two, how do you find the 5 defendant Lynne Stewart with respect to Count 1? 6 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Question three, how do you find the 8 defendant Mohammed Yousry with respect to Count 1? 9 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Count 2, conspiracy to kill or 11 kidnap persons outside the United States, question four, how do 12 you find the defendant Ahmed Abdel Sattar with respect to 13 Count 2? 14 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 15 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Count 5, which one or more of the 16 following was or were the objectives of the conspiracy in 17 Count 2? 18 THE FOREPERSON: Murder. 19 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Count 3, solicitation of crimes of 20 violence, question six, how do you find defendant Ahmed Abdel 21 Sattar with respect to Count 3? 22 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 23 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Question seven, which one or more 24 of the following was or were the crimes, crime or crimes of 25 violence that defendant Ahmed Abdel Sattar solicited? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13118 52aesat1 1 THE FOREPERSON: Murder, conspiracy to murder. 2 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Count 4, conspiracy to provide and 3 conceal material support. 4 Question eight, how do you find defendant Lynne 5 Stewart with respect to Count 4? 6 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Question nine, how do you find 8 defendant Mohammed Yousry with respect to Count 4? 9 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Question ten, which one or more of 11 the following was or were the object or objects of the 12 conspiracy in Count 4? 13 THE FOREPERSON: Both. 14 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Count 5, providing and concealing 15 material support. 16 Question 11, how do you find defendant Lynne Stewart 17 with respect to Count 5? 18 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 19 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Question 12, which one or more of 20 the following acts did defendant Lynne Stewart commit? 21 THE FOREPERSON: Both. 22 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Question 13, how do you find the 23 defendant, Mohammed Yousry, with respect to Count 5? 24 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 25 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Question 14, which one or more of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13119 52aesat1 1 the following acts did defendant Mohammed Yousry commit? 2 THE FOREPERSON: Both. 3 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Count 6, false statements. 4 How do you find defendant Lynne Stewart with respect 5 to Count 6? 6 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Count 7, false statements, how do 8 you find defendant Lynne Stewart with respect to Count 7? 9 THE FOREPERSON: Guilty. 10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Your Honor, should I poll the jury? 11 THE COURT: Poll the jury, please. 12 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 13 please listen to your verdict as it stands recorded. 14 Count 1, conspiracy to defraud the United States, 15 question one, how do you find defendant Ahmed Abdel Sattar with 16 respect to Count 1? Your verdict is guilty. 17 Question two, how do you find defendant Lynne Stewart 18 with respect to Count 1? Your verdict is guilty. 19 Question three, how do you find defendant Mohammed 20 Yousry with respect to Count 1? Your verdict is guilty. 21 Count 2, conspiracy to kill or kidnap persons outside 22 the United States. Question four, how do you find defendant 23 Ahmed Abdel Sattar with respect to Count 2? Your verdict is 24 guilty. 25 Question five, which one or more of the following was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13120 52aesat1 1 or were the objective or objectives of the conspiracy in 2 Count 2? Your answer is murder. 3 Count 3, solicitation of crimes of violence. Question 4 six, how do you find defendant Ahmed Abdel Sattar with respect 5 to Count 3? Your verdict is guilty. 6 Question seven, which one or more of the following was 7 or were the crime or crimes of violence that defendant Ahmed 8 Abdel Sattar solicited? Your answer, murder and conspiracy to 9 murder. 10 Count 4, conspiracy to provide and conceal material 11 support. Question eight, how do you find defendant Lynne 12 Stewart with respect to Count 4? Your verdict is guilty. 13 Question nine, how do you find defendant Mohammed 14 Yousry with respect to Count 4? Your verdict is guilty. 15 Question ten, which one or more of the following was 16 or were the object or objects of the conspiracy in Count 4? 17 Your answer is both. 18 Count 5, providing and concealing material support. 19 Question 11, how do you find defendant Lynne Stewart with 20 respect to Count 5? Your verdict is guilty. 21 Question 12, which one or more of the following acts 22 did defendant Lynne Stewart commit? Your answer is both. 23 Question 13, how do you find defendant Mohammed Yousry 24 with respect to Count 5? Your verdict is guilty. 25 Question 14, which one or more of the following acts SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13121 52aesat1 1 did defendant Mohammed Yousry commit? Your answer is both. 2 Count 6, false statements. Question 15, how do you 3 find defendant Lynne Stewart with respect to Count 6? Your 4 verdict is guilty. 5 Count 7, false statements. Question 16, how do you 6 find defendant Lynne Stewart with respect to Count 7? Your 7 verdict is guilty. 8 This verdict sheet has been signed by the foreperson, 9 number 329, and signed by the remaining jurors, juror 41, juror 10 217, juror 153, juror 250, juror 364, juror 126, juror 292, 11 juror 39, juror 146, juror 240, and juror 82. 12 Juror No. 329, is that your verdict? 13 A JUROR: Yes. 14 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 41, is that your verdict? 15 A JUROR: Yes. 16 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 217, is that your verdict? 17 A JUROR: Yes. 18 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 153, is that your verdict? 19 A JUROR: Yes. 20 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 250, is that your verdict? 21 A JUROR: Yes. 22 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 364 is that your verdict? 23 A JUROR: Yes. 24 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 126, is that your verdict? 25 A JUROR: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13122 52aesat1 1 THE COURT: I don't -- 2 A JUROR: Yes. 3 THE COURT: I -- 4 A JUROR: Yes. 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 292, is that your verdict? 6 A JUROR: Yes. 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 39, is that your verdict? 8 A JUROR: Yes. 9 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 146, is that your verdict? 10 A JUROR: Yes. 11 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 240, is that your verdict? 12 A JUROR: Yes. 13 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 82, is that your verdict? 14 A JUROR: Yes. 15 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Let the record reflect that the 16 jury has been polled and the verdict is unanimous. 17 THE COURT: Please pass the verdict form down to 18 counsel for the government and then for the defense so that 19 they can inspect it. 20 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Defense counsel have inspected 21 it, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. Anything further before I 23 discharge the jury? 24 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: No, your Honor. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Nothing for the government, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13123 52aesat1 1 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, many judges use this 2 occasion when a jury returns a verdict to thank jurors for 3 their service and for their deliberations. And thanks are 4 certainly deserved for the personal sacrifice that all of you 5 have made in devoting over seven months of your lives to the 6 process of jury service. 7 But many years ago I clerked for a great judge of this 8 court who made it a practice never to thank jurors. Because he 9 explained to them that what they had done was to perform one of 10 the highest and noblest obligations of citizenship. They had 11 acted as finders of fact. They had acted as ministers of 12 justice. And for doing that they had performed a public 13 service equal to that of the Court or to any other public 14 servant in our society. 15 And for that the jurors should take away from this 16 experience the deep, personal satisfaction of knowing that you 17 have performed a public service, a service without which our 18 system of justice simply could not exist. 19 So, having sat with you for over seven months, having 20 watched your diligence and your conscientiousness, I believe 21 that all of you take away from this process that deep personal 22 satisfaction of knowing that you have performed a public 23 service. And that is far more important than the ephemeral 24 thanks of the Court for the parties. And my understanding that 25 you all take away from this process that personal satisfaction SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13124 52aesat1 1 gives me satisfaction. 2 There are just a few more details. You have completed 3 your jury service, so I discharge you as jurors in this case. 4 You are no longer subject to any of my orders. You are 5 discharged as jurors in this case. 6 And so, among others, you're no longer under my order 7 not to talk about the case. But I would simply urge you not to 8 talk about the case and to respect the confidentiality of your 9 deliberations and the confidentiality of your discussions and 10 the confidentiality of your fellow jurors. 11 But as I said, you're no longer under my orders. 12 You're free of my orders. I'm simply urging you as a matter of 13 consideration for all of you not to talk about the case. But 14 you are not under any orders from me. 15 All of your paperwork will be taken care of through 16 the mail. You don't have to worry about any of that. And with 17 that, there remains for me only the task of asking everyone in 18 the courtroom to stand as a sign of respect to all of you for 19 one last time. 20 All rise, please. 21 (Jury discharged) 22 THE COURT: There are pending applications. And if 23 the parties wanted me to set any time for applications, I would 24 do that. 25 I also should set a time for sentence. July 15 at SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13125 52aesat1 1 9:30. 2 I have Rule 29 motions that were made but not briefed. 3 And I raise it as an issue. I'd be prepared to decide them 4 based upon the arguments, but if any of you wants to give me 5 anything else or wants time, I would set it. I'm always 6 concerned about the jurisdictional issues of time to make 7 motions. 8 MR. TIGAR: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And so if anyone wanted me to extend time, 10 I'd extend time. 11 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. We had -- with respect 12 to motions under Rule 29, 33 and 34, I think that's the 13 complete catalogue of motions within which the time must be set 14 within the seven days. We would ask for 21 days from today, 15 which would be Thursday, the 3rd of March -- I'm sorry -- I 16 believe that's right. Thursday, the 3rd of March. And at that 17 time -- I understand your Honor's reserved the Rule 29, but I 18 am asking for the opportunity to remake, rebrief and so on, but 19 also with respect to motions in arrest in the trial. 20 THE COURT: That's on -- I always say -- I'll 21 certainly extend the time, to the extent that I have the 22 ability to extend the time. But I always urge parties to 23 double check the jurisdictional requirements for time to make 24 these kinds of motions. 25 So to the extent that I have the power to extend the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13126 52aesat1 1 time, I extend the time to March the 3rd. 2 Government response? 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if we could have three weeks 4 to respond. 5 THE COURT: Government response, March 24th. 6 Defense reply, April 4th. Is that fine? April 4th? 7 Is that okay? 8 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: That's fine, your Honor. 9 MR. PAUL: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Defense reply, April 4th. 11 There are a couple of other issues I wanted to raise 12 with you. The alternates are also now discharged. I'll draft 13 a note with copies to the parties. I don't know who the 14 alternates are, so I'll have the note sent by Mr. Grate with a 15 copy to all of you. And I'll do it after I get a transcript of 16 this proceeding so that I can send the transcript also to the 17 alternates. But they'll be told in the telephone message that 18 they're discharged and that they don't have to call in any 19 further. 20 I intend to send a note to the marshal expressing 21 appreciation for the marshal service who has been with us 22 during the trial, and I would copy everyone on that note. All 23 right? 24 Ms. Baker? 25 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the government has an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13127 52aesat1 1 application with respect to Ms. Stewart's bail conditions. 2 When Ms. Stewart was originally charged in this case, her bail 3 conditions included a restriction on her travel restricting her 4 to the Southern and Eastern Districts of New York. 5 On a subsequent occasion, the travel restrictions were 6 broadened, or perhaps you might consider them removed, so that 7 she could travel within the United States. In light of the 8 change of circumstances of the convictions, the government asks 9 that the Court limit the travel back to the Southern and 10 Eastern Districts of New York and leave the remaining bail 11 conditions as set. 12 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I confer briefly with 13 government counsel. 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. I believe the 16 government will amend its application. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, based on my discussion with 18 Mr. Tigar, the government amends its application to include in 19 addition to the Southern and Eastern Districts of New York also 20 the Northern District of New York. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. Yes, that is the 23 understanding. 24 THE COURT: Defense have any position on that, is that 25 agreeable? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13128 52aesat1 1 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. We had discussed these 2 issues at various times, and that is agreeable to the defense, 3 it being the understanding that all the other prior conditions 4 will remain. 5 I think that to the extent the Court is being asked to 6 exercise its power here based on the parties' consent, there's 7 ample statutory authority for doing so under these 8 circumstances. So unless the Court wants to hear from us, I 9 forebear to say more about it. 10 THE COURT: No, that's fine. I'll amend the bail 11 conditions for Ms. Stewart to include travel restricted to the 12 Southern District, Eastern District and Northern Districts of 13 New York. 14 Okay. Anything else? 15 MS. BAKER: No, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Good afternoon, all. 17 (Recess) 18 (In open court) 19 THE COURT: There was one other issue that I was going 20 to raise with you, which was an issue has been raised before in 21 the case about notes and the like. 22 Mr. Fletcher in the normal course now goes into the 23 jury room and he has to return to all of your respective 24 exhibits. He also has to preserve the Court Exhibits which are 25 there for the file. There may well be -- I know that there are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13129 52aesat1 1 from the prior proceedings, the notes from the alternates. And 2 there may well be notes from the jury deliberations in the jury 3 room now. Normally those are discarded immediately. And that 4 is what Mr. Fletcher will do. 5 But I wanted to advise you all of that. 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, just for logistical planning 7 purposes, when might we expect to hear from Mr. Fletcher about 8 retrieving the exhibits? They may be fairly voluminous and we 9 may need to send someone over with a cart. And we're not in a 10 hurry, I just want to know. 11 THE COURT: Monday. Mr. Fletcher tells me Monday 12 morning. And he will call you, call all of you. 13 Okay. 14 (Adjourned) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300