5658 49EESAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 September 14, 2004 8 9:35 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5659 49EESAT1 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 (Trial continuing) 3 THE COURT: Good morning, all. A few matters. 4 We will break today at 12:00 until 2:00 so that the 5 jury can go out to lunch. 6 I received the government's redacted version of 544. 7 And did the defendant want to be heard on the redactions? 8 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, we did, your Honor. And I don't 9 know if you want to do that now or if we're not going to reach 10 that until after lunch, especially breaking at noon for lunch. 11 Maybe we could all do -- or I can speak to it now if you want. 12 THE COURT: Well, I hear the jury ready. 13 There are some technical problems that are being 14 worked on with the equipment? 15 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, it's just our LiveNote 16 computer isn't working, but we can start without it. We've 17 been having a problem with it the last few days. 18 THE COURT: If you want to hold it until 12:00. 19 MR. RUHNKE: I was just thinking in terms of the jury. 20 THE COURT: In terms of the newspaper articles, I 21 still need copies of the newspaper articles. 22 And I'm also waiting for the answers with respect to 23 the translator. 24 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, with respect to the 25 translator, I spoke with the translator yesterday and this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5660 49EESAT1 1 morning. She's faxed over to one of the agents who are working 2 with us copies of some e-mails, which is similar to the way I 3 described them yesterday, which was they were merely 4 transmittal e-mails indicating to her superior that she 5 finished the work with respect to particular translation. I 6 should have them in hand either late this morning or this 7 afternoon when I hear -- I'll examine them, then I'll report 8 back to the Court as to what I've reviewed. 9 THE COURT: All right. And the parties should let me 10 know when a ruling is going to be needed with respect to the 11 newspaper articles and main -- well, the exhibits from the 12 search of Ms. Stewart's office as to which there are 13 objections. 14 OK. As soon as the -- 15 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, after we play one recording 16 this morning, it's our intention to put an agent on the stand 17 who participated in the search of Ms. Stewart's office. As 18 your Honor is aware, 20 of the exhibits -- actually, now it's 19 21, I just received a letter this morning from the defense that 20 they're objecting to an additional exhibit. Twenty-one of 21 those exhibits obviously are being challenged. 22 There is approximately 24 that are not, at least are 23 not to date, being challenged. It's our intention during the 24 agent's testimony to offer those into evidence. I just wanted 25 to alert the Court. I will obviously identify them at the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5661 49EESAT1 1 appropriate time. 2 MR. BARKOW: And, your Honor, with respect to the one 3 call we're going to play, I just wanted to make the Court and 4 the parties aware, this is Government Exhibit 1193, which is in 5 evidence. It's a call in English so we're going to play it 6 with an accompanying transcript. It is in evidence and it's 7 the subject of a stipulation that's also in evidence, 8 Government Exhibit 1319. 9 That call, 1193, has been redacted because the call 10 was excerpted. And that stipulation, 1319, is the stipulation 11 that explains the redacting process. It ended up on a new CD. 12 At each point that the call breaks, that is, each excerpted-out 13 portion, we have to switch to another audio file. And so 14 there's going to be interruptions in the playing of that call, 15 and I just -- when I introduce that call and ask for permission 16 to play it, I'd ask that I just be permitted to say we're going 17 to stop at each point there is an excerpt to switch to another 18 audio file. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, just to be clear, actually 21 I've just been told it's only going to be a break of about a 22 half a second to a second. So I'll explain why it's stopping, 23 but there's not going to be that long of a gap. 24 THE COURT: All right. Are we ready? 25 MR. TIGAR: Is it your Honor's intention to hear from SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5662 49EESAT1 1 the parties on the newspaper article, explaining the letters? 2 We did receive Mr. Dember's letter. 3 THE COURT: I'm perfectly to happy to -- 4 MR. TIGAR: We would like to be heard, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: OK. It would be useful for me before 6 listening to the parties to have the newspaper articles. And 7 I -- and Mr. Dember also is going to get back with respect to 8 the translator, so you can think about when the appropriate 9 time to do this is. OK. 10 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we'll try to get copies of 11 those newspapers to you at the break this morning. 12 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring in the jury. 13 It would also be nice if we could turn the temperature 14 down. 15 (Pause) 16 THE COURT: The marshals need the personnel at the 17 lunch hour so that we really can't take something up at the 18 lunch hour. And so I'll listen to you at the break with 19 respect to 544 rather than at the lunch hour. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5663 49EESAT1 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated. 3 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It's good to see 4 you all as always. 5 All right. Government? 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 7 requests permission to play with an accompanying transcript 8 Government Exhibit 1193A, which is in evidence and which is a 9 redacted, excerpted version of Government Exhibit 1193, which 10 is in evidence. And we'd ask that we view this with an 11 accompanying transcript. 12 This call, your Honor, because it is redacted pursuant 13 to a stipulation, it will be -- there will be breaks at the 14 point where the call is redacted for about a half a second to a 15 second each time. 16 THE COURT: All right. So, ladies and gentlemen, you 17 can put your headphones on, dot forward, turn them on. And if 18 any of them aren't working, just raise your hand. 19 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is a call on October 11, 20 2000, at 9:05 a.m. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 (Government Exhibit 1193A was played for the jury). 23 THE COURT: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Take the 24 head phones off, make sure to turn them off. 25 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time the government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5664 49EESAT1 1 calls Tracy Stumf. 2 TRACY STUMF, 2 3 called as a witness by the Government, 4 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. DEMBER: 7 Q. Ms. Stumf, by whom are you employed? 8 A. With the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 9 Q. What's your position with the Federal Bureau of 10 Investigation? 11 A. I'm a special agent. 12 Q. How long have you been with the FBI? 13 A. A little over 13 years. 14 Q. And have you always held the position of special agent? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Would you tell us where you currently are assigned. 17 A. In the New York office at 26 Federal Plaza. 18 Q. And what kind of work do you do now with us? 19 A. Criminal investigations. 20 Q. What type? 21 A. Includes crime scenes, children and civil rights cases. 22 Q. During your time with the FBI have you participated in the 23 execution of search warrants? 24 A. Yes, I have. 25 Q. Can you approximate for us how many search warrants you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5665 49EESAT1 Stumf - direct 1 participated in executing? 2 A. Well over 100. 3 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to April 9, 2002. Did 4 you conduct a search on that day? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. And where did you conduct that search? 7 A. At the law offices of Lynne Stewart, located at 351 8 Broadway, Suite 3F here in Manhattan. 9 Q. And now, before conducting that search of those premises, 10 did you or another member of the FBI obtain a search warrant 11 for those premises? 12 A. Yes, someone else did. 13 Q. And was that search warrant signed by a magistrate judge? 14 A. Yes, it was. 15 Q. In what court was that warrant signed? 16 A. In the Southern District of New York. 17 Q. In a district court? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, what kind of premises are 351 Broadway in suite 3F? 20 A. It's a law office. It's a suite filled with a bunch of 21 offices. And that particular location had a number of 22 attorneys' offices to include Lynne Stewart's. 23 THE COURT: Please keep your voice up. Speak into the 24 microphone. 25 Q. Now, in general terms what part of that suite of law SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5666 49EESAT1 Stumf - direct 1 offices did you and other agents search? 2 A. We limited our search to Lynne Stewart's office and other 3 areas of that suite that were common to her where she would do 4 her work, like the law library and paralegal's office, file 5 storage area. There were other offices in that suite that 6 belonged to other attorneys that we did not search. 7 Q. By the way, besides yourself, approximately how many other 8 agents participated in the search? 9 A. Maybe eight other agents and some personnel from the New 10 York City Police Department's joint terrorism task force. 11 Q. They were members of this task force as well? 12 A. Yes, everyone was. 13 Q. Now, how were you able to identify which office within the 14 suite belonged to Lynne Stewart? 15 A. When we arrived at the suite, we were met with Susan 16 Tipograph, who was an attorney in that office. And she -- we 17 explained why we were there. We let her read the search 18 warrant and we told her that our search was only going to be 19 within the parameters of the warrant, which included Lynne 20 Stewart's offices and places that were common to where she 21 would do her work. We were not interested in searching anybody 22 else's office. 23 She then showed us where Lynne Stewart's office was 24 and then pointed out all the other offices, who they belonged 25 to and where the file storage room was, where the paralegal's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5667 49EESAT1 Stumf - direct 1 office was. 2 Q. By the way, did you or your fellow agents search any other 3 office that belonged to a lawyer in that suite other than 4 Ms. Stewart's? 5 A. No, we did not. 6 Q. Now, approximately what time was it that you started 7 yourself on that day? 8 A. At approximately 11:20 a.m. 9 Q. And from the time that you first -- withdrawn. 10 By the way, did you show Ms. Tipograph -- by the way, 11 is she a lawyer? 12 A. Yes, she is. 13 Q. Did you show her the search warrant that you had? 14 A. Yes, we showed it to her and we let her read it. 15 Q. Now, when you entered the premises that morning, 16 approximately what time was it? 17 A. Approximately 11:20 a.m. 18 Q. Was Ms. Stewart present? 19 A. No, she was not. 20 Q. Was Lynne Stewart present during any of the time that you 21 or the other agents were conducting the search? 22 A. No, she was not. 23 Q. Were there other people other than agents working with you 24 at the time present in those offices during the time that you 25 conducted the search? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5668 49EESAT1 Stumf - direct 1 A. Yes, there were. 2 Q. And who were those people? 3 A. One, I believe the woman was a secretary; another was a 4 paralegal; and then throughout the course of the search there 5 were other attorneys either assigned to that office or 6 attorneys from other offices that were coming in and out of 7 that office during this search. 8 Q. And were those other lawyers allowed to conduct their 9 business as normal? 10 A. Oh, yes. Yes. 11 Q. By the way, you indicated when you started the search. 12 Approximately when did you and your fellow agents finish 13 conducting the search of Ms. Stewart's offices? 14 A. Approximately 6:20 p.m. 15 Q. And during the time that you -- I'm speaking specifically 16 of the office that was identified to you as Ms. Stewart's 17 office. 18 When you and your fellow agents were searching that 19 particular office, was anyone else allowed into that office 20 other than an agent? 21 A. We -- anybody who wanted to go in that office was free to 22 go into that office. 23 Q. Now, Agent Stumf, besides your involvement in conducting 24 this particular search, did you have any other involvement in 25 this case? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5669 49EESAT1 Stumf - direct 1 A. No, I did not. 2 MR. DEMBER: Now -- your Honor, may I approach the 3 witness? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 Q. Agent Stumf, I'm going to hand up to you a number of 6 documents which are marked for identification as Government 7 Exhibits 2680, 2689, 2690, 2691, 2692, 2693, 2695, 2696, 2697, 8 2698 and 2699. 9 Agent Stumf, let me first direct your attention to the 10 document that is marked for identification as Government 11 Exhibit 2680. First of all, do you recognize the document? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. And how do you recognize it? 14 A. This is a document -- 15 Q. Don't tell us what it is quite yet, just tell us how you 16 recognize it first. 17 A. I was there at the sketch -- at the search. And the 18 individual who sketched it, I was there, he handed it to me 19 when he was finished. 20 Q. Did a fellow agent prepare that sketch? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, that's a three-page exhibit, is it not? 23 A. I'm sorry, yes. The other two sketches, the one in the -- 24 the next one is a sketch of Lynne Stewart's office. That 25 sketch I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5670 49EESAT1 Stumf - direct 1 Q. OK. And the third? 2 A. And the last sketch is a sketch of the file storage area. 3 Another agent sketched this. 4 Q. Are you familiar with those sketches? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And those sketches are not to scale, are they? 7 A. No. 8 Q. They're rough sketches of those premises, is that correct? 9 A. Yes, that's correct. 10 Q. Do they -- besides the fact that they're not to scale, do 11 they fairly and accurately depict the way the offices at 351 12 Broadway, suite 3F, appear or are laid out? 13 A. Yes, they do. 14 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time the government 15 offers Exhibit 2680. 16 MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 18 Ladies and gentlemen, raise your hand if you can't 19 hear or there's a problem. 20 MR. TIGAR: May I -- with your Honor's -- may I give 21 Mr. Dember's papers back to him. 22 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. TIGAR: 24 Q. Agent Stumf, would you take a look first at page 1. Now, 25 it says that there's -- there were six sketches made, is that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5671 49eesat1 Stumf - Voir Dire 1 right, at the top right-hand corner? 2 A. Says -- 3 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I'm objecting to the 4 question, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Do you understand? 6 Rephrase. 7 MR. DEMBER: I'm sorry, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: I said rephrase. 9 BY MR. TIGAR: 10 Q. The group of sketches you've been handed consists of three 11 sketches, correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And they are numbered one, three and five, is that correct? 14 A. These are numbered one, three, five, that's correct. 15 Q. Do you remember what two, four and six were? 16 A. No, I do not. 17 Q. Do you remember two, four and six as sketches that were 18 made at or about the time of one, three and five? 19 A. I believe, since it says one of six, we probably did six 20 sketches, maybe one of the reception area, but I don't 21 remember. 22 Q. Turning to sketch three, is that a sketch of Ms. Stewart's 23 office? 24 A. Yes, it is. 25 Q. And it says windows there, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5672 49eesat1 Stumf - Voir Dire 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Now -- and you made that sketch, right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Were you the agent or one of the agents that actually 5 looked through the items of Ms. Stewart's office to decide what 6 should be taken and whatnot? 7 A. I was one of the agents, yes. 8 Q. And were the other two agents the ones whose names are 9 listed here? 10 MR. DEMBER: Objection, your Honor, improper voir 11 dire. 12 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained. 13 MR. TIGAR: Sustained? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 16 BY MR. TIGAR: 17 Q. Turning to sketch three, that's a file room or the third 18 page, actually, sketch number five? 19 A. Yes, it is. 20 Q. And from your personal knowledge, do you know whether 21 that's an accurate sketch or not? 22 A. It's not to scale but it's accurate. It's the way the room 23 was depicted. 24 MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 2680 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5673 49eesat1 Stumf - Voir Dire 1 received in evidence. 2 (Government's Exhibit 2680 received in evidence) 3 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I publish it to the jury? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 BY MR. DEMBER: 6 Q. Ms. Stumf, do you have a copy in front of you, and I have 7 it up on the screen as well? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. That's the first page of Exhibit 2680, is that correct? 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. Would you, with the aid of the sketch, describe the layout 12 of the offices that you searched. 13 A. The layout is when you come up into the elevator -- 14 Q. Where would that be on this sketch? Point on the screen. 15 A. Right there. 16 Q. I'm sorry. Point again, please -- touch the screen. 17 A. Is it working? 18 Q. I'm sorry. Can you describe it for us on the sketch 19 itself, where it would be. 20 A. It was right in front of -- directly off the elevator is 21 the reception, office area. 22 THE COURT: You put a blue dot on the screen. I think 23 you can make it a little bigger. All right. 24 Q. There's an arrow there. Is that where the elevator is? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5674 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Q. Why don't you take us through the sketch now? 2 A. Directly in front of the elevator where you get off is the 3 reception area, right there. And then down in this direction 4 is Lynne Stewart's office. 5 Q. Which direction is that? 6 A. To direct towards Broadway. So facing the reception area 7 towards the right, Lynne Stewart's office. 8 Q. Is the name Lynne Stewart's office written in that box? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. That's where her office is? 11 A. Yes, it is. Next to that was another attorney's office. I 12 don't recall who that attorney was. 13 Q. There's a sideways letter B and a circle? 14 A. That's correct, yes. And the other direction, you go down 15 the hallway, there's a paralegal's office off the hallway, 16 another attorney's office, then there's the file room. 17 Q. Where's -- I'm sorry. Where's the file room? 18 A. Right in this location, right there. 19 Q. Why don't you continue? 20 A. Geoffrey Stewart's office is next. I believe this 21 individual's name is Donald Yanella, that's his office. 22 Q. Is that another lawyer's office? 23 A. Yes, it is. There was a kitchen area with a bathroom and 24 then the law library off the hallway. 25 Q. Let me ask you to turn and put the second page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5675 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Government Exhibit 2680 on the screen. 2 Can you -- that's your sketch of Ms. Stewart's office? 3 A. Yes, it is. 4 Q. Can you tell us, there are a number of circles with numbers 5 in this sketch. Can you tell us what those numbers and circles 6 represent? 7 A. Those numbers represent items that we seized from her 8 office and the location of where we seized them. 9 Q. Was the office itself designated by way of any number or 10 letter itself? 11 A. Yes, it was. 12 Q. What was that? 13 A. Letter C. 14 Q. And so how would you designate an item that was seized from 15 her office in terms of recording its recovery? 16 A. We would put the information on an evidence recovery log 17 which would record what we found, where we found it, who found 18 it. 19 Q. And so how would the numbers on this part of the sketch, 20 this page be sketched to help you to indicate where an item was 21 recovered? 22 A. If you looked at the evidence recovery log, it would give 23 the description. So it would be item C3, then on this diagram, 24 since it's room C, you look for the number 3. And that would 25 be where the evidence is found. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5676 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Q. So any item from, for example -- any document from item C3 2 would be from Ms. Stewart's office? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Because it's room C? 5 A. That's correct. So all of these items, all of these 6 numbers were found in her office. 7 Q. And the item 3, whatever that is, would be -- would have 8 been the location in the circle that is designated on the 9 sketch? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. By the way, where is item 3 located? 12 A. Right in this corner here. 13 Q. Do you remember what item 3 was? 14 A. It was a box of three Redweld envelopes and three manila 15 folders. 16 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor, personal knowledge. 17 Q. Were you present in that office? 18 A. Yes, I was. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 Q. Did you see that box? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Did you see those file folders as well? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 Q. Agent Stumf, I'm going to show you the last page of this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5677 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 exhibit, Exhibit 2680. And what is depicted in this part of 2 the -- in this page of the sketches? 3 A. This is a file storage area located within the office, the 4 suite. 5 Q. And was the file room designated by a certain letter as 6 well? 7 A. Yes, letter H. 8 Q. Were there other rooms, by the way, designated by different 9 letters? 10 A. Yes, there were. 11 Q. Thank you very much. 12 Now, Agent Stumf, I've handed you -- I've given you 13 the numbers before, a number of -- let me direct your attention 14 to the exhibits with the numbers 2689, 2690, 2691, 2692 and 15 2693. 16 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Dember for a moment, 17 please, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, Mr. Tigar's indicated he has 20 no objection to these five photographs. The government offers 21 these photographs into evidence. 22 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibits 2689, 23 2690, 2691, 2692 and 2693 are received in evidence. 24 (Government's Exhibits 2689, 2690, 2691, 2692 and 2693 25 received in evidence) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5678 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 MR. TIGAR: May I have another moment, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Sure. 3 BY MR. DEMBER: 4 Q. Agent Stumf, the photographs that we've just -- the Court 5 just received in evidence, what are those photographs of? 6 A. These are photographs of Lynne Stewart's office. 7 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may we publish for the jury 8 Exhibit 2689. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. And that photograph depicts Ms. Stewart's desk, is that 11 correct? 12 A. Yes, it does. 13 Q. And that's the window behind her desk -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- as depicted in the sketch as well? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. DEMBER: May we publish to the jury, for the jury 18 Exhibit 2690. 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. Agent Stumf, that's another part of Ms. Stewart's office as 21 well? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. DEMBER: May we publish for the jury Exhibit 2691, 24 your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5679 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Q. Again, Agent Stumf, that's another view, another angle, 2 portion of Ms. Stewart's office? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. DEMBER: And may we publish Exhibit 2692, your 5 Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Agent Stumf, that's also a photograph of Ms. Stewart's 8 office? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. DEMBER: And finally, in this series, your Honor, 11 may we publish Government Exhibit 2693? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. Agent Stumf, would you take a look at the photograph and 14 just confirm for us that's another part of Ms. Stewart's 15 office? 16 A. Yes, it is. 17 Q. By the way, Agent Stumf, when we talk about Ms. Stewart's 18 office, we're talking about the one that she actually had her 19 possessions in, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Were there photographs taken of the other offices within 22 the suite? 23 A. Yes, there were. 24 Q. Other than taking photographs of those offices, were they 25 searched? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5680 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 A. No, they were not. 2 Q. And do you recall whether sketches were made of the other 3 offices or other rooms within the suite? 4 A. There were some sketches of other rooms but none of the 5 offices. 6 Q. Agent Stumf, let me ask you to take a look at five 7 additional photographs which I placed before you earlier, which 8 are Exhibits 2695, 2696, 2697, 2698 and 2699. Do you have 9 those before you? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. Do you recognize those photographs? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. And by the way, do you know who took the photographs, all 14 these photographs of Ms. Stewart's office? 15 A. Another agent who had participated in the search. 16 Q. Do you remember who that was? 17 A. I believe it was Adam Cohen. 18 Q. Did you have any role in the photographing of the various 19 parts of the office? 20 A. I took the photographic log which noted what each of the 21 photographs were, what electronic location. 22 Q. Did you do that when Agent Cohen was actually taking the 23 photographs? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. He would take the photograph and you would make note of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5681 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 what he was photographing? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do those photographs -- first of all, what is generally 4 depicted in those five photographs, what -- 5 A. This is a -- these pictures are pictures of the file 6 storage area. 7 Q. And do those photographs fairly and accurately depict the 8 way that particular room appeared on the date of the search? 9 A. Yes, they did. 10 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the government offers those 11 exhibits into evidence. 12 MR. TIGAR: No objection. 13 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibits 2695, 14 2696, 2697, 2698 and 2699 received in evidence. 15 (Government's Exhibits 2695, 2696, 2697, 2698 and 2699 16 received in evidence) 17 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may we publish first Exhibit 18 2695. 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 BY MR. DEMBER: 21 Q. Agent Stumf, that's a part of the file room? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. DEMBER: May we publish photograph Exhibit 2696, 24 your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5682 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Q. That's a different part of the file room, Agent Stumf? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. DEMBER: May we publish Exhibit 2697, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 Q. Again, that's a photograph of a different part of the file 6 room? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. DEMBER: May we publish Exhibit 2698. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. Again, a photograph of the file room? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. DEMBER: And finally, may we publish to the jury 13 Exhibit 2699? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 Q. Now, Agent Stumf, during the course of the search itself 16 what was your primary responsibility? 17 A. Can you repeat the question. 18 Q. Sure. During the conducting of the search itself what was 19 your primary responsibility? 20 A. I was primarily the search team leader, took the evidence 21 recovery log and photo log, and I also took custody of the 22 items after we had completed the search. 23 Q. Now, you indicated that you prepared the evidence recovery 24 log? 25 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5683 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Q. Could you describe for the jury what an evidence recovery 2 log is. 3 A. It's a document that we keep indicating what items were 4 found, where they were found, who found them. 5 Q. And did you make note of all those things? 6 A. Yes, we did. 7 Q. Do you recall, Agent Stumf, generally how the search 8 proceeded itself, how it started? 9 A. We started with -- I think we might have started with the 10 library and reception area. We realized pretty quickly that it 11 was more than the few of us that were there, we would be there 12 all -- much later than we were, so we needed to call extra 13 people, extra agents over to help us with the search. 14 Q. Did you do that? 15 A. Yes, we did. 16 Q. And did additional agents come to Ms. Stewart's office to 17 help with the search? 18 A. Yes, they did. 19 Q. At some point in time was Ms. Stewart's office searched? 20 A. Yes, it was. 21 Q. And what other rooms were searched besides the reception 22 area and Ms. Stewart's office? 23 A. File storage area, the library and I believe the 24 paralegal's office. 25 Q. Now, in general terms what type -- did you actually seize SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5684 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 any items from Ms. Stewart's office? 2 A. Yes, we did. 3 Q. In general terms just what kind of items did you seize? 4 A. They were file folders full of documents, calendars, 5 diaries, telephone books, things like that. 6 Q. Did you actually seize any items yourself? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. And when other agents seized various items, what -- when 9 another agent actually seized an item, what would the other 10 agent do with the item? 11 A. The other agent would point out where they located -- they 12 would show me where they found it so that I could note it on 13 the sketch, and then they told me what it was. We put the 14 description in the evidence recovery log and where it was found 15 in the evidence recovery log. 16 Q. Was that done with all the items that were seized at 17 Ms. Stewart's office that day? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How was it determined what should or should not be seized 20 during your search? 21 A. We kept our search within the parameters of the search 22 warrant, and if there was anything that we thought was 23 questionable, we would call an assistant US attorney who was 24 assigned to our search and ask him whether he thought this was 25 something that should stay or go. We would pick up -- say pick SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5685 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 up a file folder, do a cursory examination, try and look 2 through it to see whether or not anything in there immediately 3 fit the search. And if it did not, we did not keep it. 4 Q. Do you remember the name of that assistant United States 5 attorney? 6 A. Yes, Gary Stein. 7 Q. Do you know what Mr. Stein's position was at the US 8 Attorney's Office at the time? 9 A. He was an assistant US attorney. 10 Q. Do you know whether he had another title within the office? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. By the way, did you seize every item and every document 13 that you found in Ms. Stewart's office? 14 A. No, we did not. 15 Q. Now, after the items were seized, what was done with an 16 item? 17 A. After an item was seized we would put it into a box or bag, 18 note on that box or bag the file number, person who found it 19 and then we would seal it. 20 Q. Did you put some of those items in boxes, boxes and bags? 21 A. Yes, boxes and bags. 22 Q. And eventually what was done with those boxes and bags of 23 seized items? 24 A. Those items were transported to our office to be put into 25 our evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5686 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Q. And who had a responsibility while still in Ms. Stewart's 2 offices to take custody of all the seized items? 3 A. I did. 4 Q. And who had responsibility of transporting those items to 5 the FBI's offices? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. And what did you do after you transported those items that 8 were seized from Ms. Stewart's office? 9 A. We transported them to a secure storage area in our office. 10 Q. And did you secure them in that area? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Agent Stumf, I've just handed up to you a number of items 15 which have been marked for identification as Government 16 Exhibits 2600, 2601, 2634, 2635, 2636, 2637, 2638 and 2639. 17 First of all, do you recognize all those items? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And were those among the items that were seized from 20 Ms. Stewart's office? 21 A. These items were seized from the file storage area. 22 Q. Now, without reading from anything -- from any document 23 that's before you, would you tell us what type of an item 24 Government Exhibit 2600 is? 25 A. 2600 is the evidence bag that we put the folder into that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5687 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 we seized. 2 Q. Is that an FBI evidence bag? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That's the kind of bag the FBI uses when they conduct 5 searches? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And would you tell us, again, without reading anything from 8 the exhibit itself, what Exhibit 2601 is. 9 A. 2601 is the Redweld that contained documents that we placed 10 into the evidence bag. 11 Q. Was that a Redweld that was found in Ms. Stewart's office? 12 A. This Redweld was found in the file storage area. 13 Q. And the other exhibits that I just read off in the series 14 I've just read, were those documents found within that Redweld? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. By the way, were there also other documents that are not 17 exhibits also found in that Redweld? 18 A. Yes, there were. 19 Q. Now, can you tell us who actually found that Redweld and 20 the documents that are the exhibits numbers that I've just read 21 off? 22 A. I believe it was Agent Pat Carnahan. 23 Q. And you indicated that was found in the file room or 24 storage room? 25 A. In the file storage room, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5688 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Q. Was that found within a file cabinet or somewhere else? 2 A. I believe it was found within a file cabinet. 3 Q. Agent Stumf, why don't you put that Redweld full of 4 exhibits aside for the moment. 5 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness 6 again? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 BY MR. DEMBER: 9 Q. Agent Stumf, I've just handed up to you a whole series of 10 exhibits or documents that have been marked for identification. 11 I'm going to read the numbers off now. They are marked for 12 identification as Government Exhibits 2602, 2603, 2643, 2644, 13 2645, 2646, 2647, 2648, 2649, 2650, 2651, 2652, 2653, 2654, 14 2655, 2656, 2657, 2659, 2662 and 2663. 15 Agent Stumf, first of all, do you recognize all the 16 documents and the exhibits that I have just read off that are 17 within that open Redweld I handed to you? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you recognize them as having been items, exhibits 20 which were seized from Ms. Stewart's offices? 21 A. These were items and exhibits that were seized from the 22 file storage area. 23 Q. And first, let me ask you specifically about the item 24 that's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 2602. 25 Again, without reading anything printed on that particular SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5689 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 item, can you tell us what type of an item that is. 2 A. This is also an evidence bag that we use. 3 Q. That's an FBI evidence bag? 4 A. It's an FBI evidence bag. 5 Q. And were the other contents of that open Redweld that I 6 handed you with all those exhibits, were they found or were 7 they placed in that evidence bag in Ms. Stewart's offices? 8 A. Yes, in the file storage area. 9 Q. Let me direct your attention to the exhibit that is marked 10 for identification as Exhibit 2603. Again, without reading 11 anything off of that document or item, what kind of an item is 12 that? 13 A. This is a manila folder. 14 Q. And was that manila folder seized from Ms. Stewart's file 15 room in Ms. Stewart's offices? 16 A. Yes, it was. 17 Q. And were all those other exhibit numbers -- exhibits, were 18 the other exhibits that I read the numbers for a moment ago 19 found within that file folder when it was seized in 20 Ms. Stewart's file room? 21 A. Yes, they were. 22 MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. I was not able to 23 copy down those exhibit numbers. May I have them again, 24 please -- oh, Mr. Barkow just offered me a piece of yellow 25 paper that will serve that. Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5690 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 THE COURT: Sure. Hold on for a moment. 2 OK. Thank you. 3 Q. Agent Stumf, can you tell us who seized all those exhibits, 4 the numbers of which I read off and because they're a long list 5 I won't read them again at the moment. Who seized those 6 exhibits that are before you? 7 A. These items were seized by Agent Pat Carnahan. 8 Q. Again, where were they seized from? 9 A. From the file storage area. 10 Q. And do you know if they were seized from a file cabinet or 11 from some other part of the file storage area? 12 A. I believe they were seized from a file cabinet. 13 Q. And by the way, the manila file folder that you refer to we 14 just asked you about which is marked Exhibit 2603, other than 15 the long list of exhibits that are before you that you 16 indicated were found in that file folder, were there also other 17 documents not marked as exhibits found in that file folder? 18 A. Yes, there were. 19 MR. DEMBER: May I approach the witness again, your 20 Honor. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Agent Stumf, I've just handed up to you a number of 23 exhibits which are marked for identification as Government 24 Exhibits 2604, 2610, 2611, 2612, 2614, 2618, 2619 and 2620. 25 First of all, do you recognize all those exhibits, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5691 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Agent Stumf? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And how do you recognize them -- excuse me. What do you 4 recognize them to be? 5 A. These were documents that were found in a manila folder in 6 Lynne Stewart's office. 7 Q. And what is Exhibit 2604? 8 A. It's a manila folder. 9 Q. And is that the manila folder you're referring to? 10 A. Yes, I'm sorry. 11 Q. And were the other exhibits, the numbers of which I've just 12 read out, were those exhibits found in that manila folder at 13 the time of the search? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Were there also other documents found in that folder as 16 well? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And can you tell us who found those exhibits during the 19 search? 20 A. These exhibits were found by Sergeant Kevin Butler. 21 Q. And where were they found? 22 A. They were found on the floor in Lynne Stewart's office in a 23 box. 24 Q. In a box? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5692 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 Q. When you say Ms. Stewart's office, you mean her -- 2 A. Her individual office. 3 Q. The one designated with the letter C on the diagram? 4 A. Yes. Yes. 5 MR. DEMBER: May I approach again, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Agent Stumf, I've just handed up to you a number of 8 exhibits which have been marked for identification as 9 Government Exhibits 2605, 2622, 2623, 2624, 2625, 2629 and 10 2630. First of all, do you recognize all those exhibits? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what do you recognize them to be? 13 A. These are documents that were found inside this Redweld 14 that were found in Lynne Stewart's office. 15 Q. And the Redweld you're referring to, is that Government 16 Exhibit 2605? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 Q. And the other exhibits that I just listed were found 19 with -- inside that Redweld? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Were there other documents not exhibits in this case that 22 were also in that Redweld? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Can you tell us who recovered that Redweld and the other 25 exhibits we just listed? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5693 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 A. This Redweld was also recovered by Sergeant Kevin Butler. 2 Q. And where was the Redweld and the other exhibits seized -- 3 found? 4 A. In a box on the floor of Lynne Stewart's office. 5 Q. Is that the same box that the other Redweld you just 6 testified about was found? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that's Ms. Stewart's actual office? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Within the suite? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. DEMBER: May I approach again, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Agent Stumf, I've just handed you a series of exhibits 15 which have been marked for identification as Government 16 Exhibits 2606, 2626, 2627, 2628, 2631, 2675 and 2676. Do you 17 recognize those exhibits? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And what do you recognize them to be? 20 A. These are documents found in the Redweld of Government 21 Exhibit 2606. 22 Q. And 2606 is a Redweld? 23 A. Yes, it's a Redweld. 24 Q. That was found during the search? 25 A. In a box, that same box as the other two items on the floor SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5694 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 in Lynne Stewart's office. 2 Q. And the other exhibits that I listed were found within that 3 Redweld? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Which is 2606? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And were other documents, as well, not marked as exhibits 8 found in that Redweld as well? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you tell us who seized this particular -- these 11 particular exhibits during the course of the search? 12 A. Sergeant Kevin Butler. 13 Q. And you indicated this came out of the same box in 14 Ms. Stewart's office you were in before? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. DEMBER: May I approach again, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Agent Stumf, I'm just handing up to you two exhibits 19 actually, exhibits -- marked for identification as Government 20 Exhibit 2607 and 2671. Do you recognize those exhibits? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What do you recognize them to be? 23 A. These are also documents that were found inside 2607 24 Redweld, in the box on the floor in Lynne Stewart's office. 25 Q. That's the same box that the other Redweld, other files SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5695 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 were found in? 2 A. Same box. 3 Q. You just testified to? 4 A. Yes, same box. 5 Q. And Exhibit 2607 is the Redweld itself that was seized? 6 A. Yes, yes. 7 Q. And 2671 is one document that -- that was in that Redweld? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Would you tell us who recovered these two exhibits? 10 A. Sergeant Kevin Butler. 11 Q. And you indicated where they were recovered from, right? 12 A. Yes, same box. 13 Q. Now, you can put that aside. 14 Agent Stumf, all the exhibits that you just -- I just 15 placed before you, other than the exhibit which is marked at 16 this point for identification as Government Exhibit 2634, other 17 than that exhibit, are all the other exhibits that you've just 18 testified about the actual original document that was actually 19 seized during your search of Ms. Stewart's offices? 20 A. Yes. 21 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time I would offer -- 22 I'd like to offer in of this group at this point approximately 23 25 exhibits. Shall I read them off? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the government offers into SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5696 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 evidence at this time the following exhibits: Exhibit 2600, 2 2601, 2635, 2636, 2602, 2603, 2643, 2644, 2645, 2646, 2647, 3 2648, 2649, 2650, 2651, 2652, 2653, 2654, 2655, 2656, 2657, 4 2659, 2662 and 2663, 2610, 2618 -- I'm sorry. 2604 as well, 5 2605, 2606, 2675 and 2676. I'm sorry, two more. 2607 -- I'm 6 just going to offer those at this point, your Honor. 7 MR. TIGAR: May I have a moment, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. TIGAR: No objection -- excuse me, your Honor. 10 May I ask one question about one exhibit? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Dember? It might 13 just save the question. 14 THE COURT: Please. 15 (Pause) 16 MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: All right. Those exhibits that have just 18 been listed are received in evidence. 19 (Government's Exhibits 2600, 2601, 2635, 2636, 2602, 20 2603, 2643, 2644, 2645, 2646, 2647, 2648, 2649, 2650, 2651, 21 2652, 2653, 2654, 2655, 2656, 2657, 2659, 2662 and 2663, 2610, 22 2618, 2604, 2605, 2606, 2607, 2675 and 2676 received in 23 evidence) 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5697 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 May I approach the witness, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. DEMBER: Actually, before I do that, may we 4 publish to the jury Government Exhibit 2656, which is now in 5 evidence. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 BY MR. DEMBER: 8 Q. Agent Stumf, can you take a look at Exhibit 2656. Can we 9 look at the first page and second page. And is there a third 10 page? Go back to the first page, please. 11 MR. DEMBER: May I approach, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, before I start with this 14 questioning, would your Honor care to take a break at this 15 point? 16 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll 17 take our midmorning break. Please remember my continuing 18 instructions not to talk about the case, keep an open mind. 19 (Continued on next page) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5698 49eesat1 Stumf - Direct 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: All right. 544. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. Before we just begin 4 the discussion, I would just like just for my own information 5 for the government to reiterate what purposes its offering this 6 newspaper article for. I forget frankly as to Mr. Yousry and 7 Ms. Stewart. It's obviously not for the truth of it but -- 8 MR. BARKOW: May I just have one second, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Do the parties want to take five minutes 10 and we can resume? 11 MR. RUHNKE: That would probably be useful. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 (Recess) 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5699 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, on the issue of Exhibit 544, 4 conferring with the government for a while during the break, it 5 is problematic whether we'll get to it today, but we may as 6 well discuss it since we set this time aside for it. 7 Government Exhibit 544 is actually being offered only 8 against Ms. Stewart and Mr. Sattar. However, when the search 9 of Mr. Yousry's residence comes up, an identical copy of the 10 article in an envelope transmitted to him from Ms. Stewart's 11 office will also be introduced. 12 The government has agreed that whatever redactions 13 apply to the one that is 544 will apply equally to the exhibit, 14 whatever number it is going to bear, that is seized from 15 Mr. Yousry's apartment. The particular objection I have to the 16 government's proposed redaction are that they continue to 17 contain statements attributed to Mr. Bin Laden and to Ayman 18 Al-Zawahiri. 19 Your Honor had ruled last week and instructed the jury 20 that neither Mr. Bin Laden nor Dr. Zawahiri are co-conspirators 21 in this case; and so, therefore, I had asked the government -- 22 again we discussed this this morning before your Honor took the 23 bench -- to redact further, and the government declined to do 24 so. 25 The argument, in its essence, is if Mr. Bin Laden and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5700 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 Dr. Zawahiri are not co-conspirators, what is the purpose for 2 which this is offered as to Mr. Yousry and Ms. Stewart and, 3 indeed, as to Mr. Sattar, since they're not a conspirator in 4 any of the counts of the indictment? 5 Obviously, it is a newspaper article, so generally it 6 is not offered for the truth; and, therefore, it must be 7 offered for some relevant other purpose, and the government 8 says well, state of mind and knowledge. 9 But if Bin Laden and Zawahiri are not members of the 10 conspiracy, and if the idea of knowledge is knowledge of the 11 existence of the Count 2 conspiracy, and these people aren't 12 members of that conspiracy, it certainly can't satisfy that 13 criteria. Therefore, I've asked that the four or five 14 references to statements of Bin Laden and Zawahiri come out of 15 Exhibit 544 and whatever counterpart it is going to bear when 16 it is introduced during the Yousry search. 17 That is my argument. 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I guess just I have a few 19 preliminary points. 20 We did discuss with Mr. Ruhnke that we would be 21 willing to make the same redaction to all -- actually, it is 22 all three copies because there is also a copy of this article 23 found in the Stewart search, and we discussed with 24 Mr. Ruhnke -- although not with other counsel -- the notion 25 that there would be a stipulation, that the copies found in the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5701 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 Stewart search and the Yousry search were copies that appear to 2 be made at the same time because they're laid out in the paper 3 in the same way. The way you can tell that is that the title 4 of the article, the headline of the article is in the same 5 place. If we redact out the headline and substantially redact 6 the article, you might not be able to tell that quite as 7 easily. I wanted to make that clear as well. Our discussions 8 of making a similar redaction and our agreement to that is 9 premised on that notion. 10 With respect to the objection as to the content, what 11 I did is I redacted out what I thought was everything in the 12 article that did not relate to the videotape, and when we 13 previously discussed this article in the context of Call 1201. 14 I thought it was established that the article's relevant to 15 show Ms. Stewart's and Mr. Sattar's state of mind because this 16 article was discussed in that call, and Ms. Stewart makes 17 evident that she read the article. Therefore, the article and 18 the contents about the videotape demonstrate her knowledge. 19 As to the point that the court instructed the jury 20 that Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri are not co-conspirators, that 21 doesn't change the fact that the people who read the article 22 knew about the statements and knew about the events, and the 23 Bin Laden, Al-Zawahiri, Taha conference is evidence of the 24 Count 2 conspiracy even if, as the court instructed the jury, 25 Bin Laden and Zawahiri are not deemed for the purposes of this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5702 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 case -- because the court is aware of the arguments Ms. Baker 2 made and the government's position on that are not deemed to be 3 members of that Count 2 conspiracy. That is evidence of it. 4 It shows their knowledge of that event and it explains 5 the conversation in Government Exhibit 1201, and then the copy 6 that was found in Mr. Yousry's possession, obviously, the 7 argument is there he was aware of its contents as well. For 8 that reason, we think the proposed redaction is appropriate 9 because it has been redacted down to the point where all it 10 does is talk about that event. 11 Specifically and in particular, although we view what 12 is left in the redaction as relevant, it does mention the 13 statements by Abdel Rahman's son Assadullah, called for armed 14 action to release his father and to "shed blood" until this 15 father is released from prison. That fact is relevant to the 16 state of mind of the defendants for Counts 4 and 5 as well, 17 their specific knowledge he is out there making such 18 statements. 19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we had not taken your 20 Honor's, taken your Honor's earlier rulings, we had not 21 objected or sought further redaction to statements or 22 references to the statements by Taha and Sheikh Rahman's son 23 because your Honor ruled they were co-conspirators. The ruling 24 stands. 25 The references to Bin Laden and Dr. Al-Zawahiri, we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5703 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 believe, should come out. In one reference, Dr. Al-Zawahiri's 2 identified as the leader of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad. We 3 have agreed that is not the group that is charged in this 4 indictment, but a similarly-sounding group. 5 Basically, that is our position. I won't repeat what 6 I said earlier. 7 MR. PAUL: My understanding is that this exhibit, when 8 we first brought it up, is not being offered against 9 Mr. Sattar, was not found in his possession. 10 There is no reference anywhere in the conversation of 11 1201 that it is stated that he has read it. I believe that is 12 from Ms. Stewart's end of the conversation, and that was my 13 understanding when we first, initially this exhibit was 14 presented. The first thing I asked, was this being offered 15 against Mr. Sattar, and the government said no. 16 I just want to clarify that. 17 MR. RUHNKE: That may be correct, your Honor. If I 18 misspoke, I apologize. 19 MR. BARKOW: I think it is me that might have 20 misspoken, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Paul is right. 22 MR. BARKOW: Then that is correct. 23 I just misspoke. 24 THE COURT: It was not offered against Mr. Sattar, and 25 1201 reflects that Mr. Sattar had not read the article, and Ms. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5704 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 Stewart describes portions of it to him. 2 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I would just add that I think 3 the line that Mr. Ruhnke is referring to is in the first 4 unredacted paragraph, and we can redact out the reference to 5 Egyptian Islamic Jihad in that sentence as well to avoid the 6 possible confusion between the two groups because, as I said 7 the other day, we don't disagree they are two different groups. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 If it is not being offered against Mr. Sattar and at 10 the moment it is not being offered against Mr. Yousry? 11 MR. BARKOW: This copy, your Honor, will never be 12 offered against Mr. Yousry. It is the one in the Yousry 13 search, but Mr. Ruhnke, I think, because we had discussed 14 treating them all the same, I guess -- 15 THE COURT: All right. But the reason that I raise 16 that is when 544 is introduced, the appropriate limiting 17 instruction is that it is being offered only against Ms. 18 Stewart, and it is not to be considered for the truth of any of 19 the matters asserted in the article. It is not received -- 20 first, I agree with the government that it is relevant to 21 knowledge, intent, state of mind of Ms. Stewart and can be 22 received for that. 23 Second, I agree with the redactions, but I also agree 24 there should be the redaction for the reference to the Egyptian 25 Islamic Jihad, and I also believe that the final paragraph SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5705 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 should be redacted because it does not directly relate to the 2 event on the tape and it was not specifically discussed by Ms. 3 Stewart in Government Exhibit 1201. Therefore, the final 4 paragraph should also be deleted out. 5 All right. Again, if there is any instructions that 6 you think I should give, I am perfectly happy to give, but 7 based on all the arguments, it appears 544 is offered only 8 against Ms. Stewart and is not to be taken for the truth of any 9 of the matters asserted, okay? 10 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, should I get Agent Stumf back 11 on the stand? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. TIGAR: Judge, in your limiting instruction, would 14 you say this is a newspaper article; and, therefore -- 15 THE COURT: Sure. 16 MR. TIGAR: -- subject to the same newspaper article 17 limitation? 18 THE COURT: Sure. Bring in the jury. 19 (Jury present) 20 THE COURT: All right. Agent Stumf is on the stand. 21 THE CLERK: Agent Stumf, you're reminded you're still 22 under oath. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I approach? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5706 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 (Pause) 2 BY MR. DEMBER: 3 Q. Agent Stumf, I am going to hand up to you two government 4 exhibits which are now both in evidence, Government Exhibit 5 2656 and Government Exhibit 2021. Would you look at both of 6 those exhibits, Agent Stumf, and compare them. 7 First of all, take a moment or so and compare the two 8 exhibits to each other. 9 A. (Pause) 10 Q. Have you had a chance to compare them? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What did you find in comparing those two exhibits? 13 A. These appear to be the same documents. 14 Q. Can you describe what the documents are. Why don't you use 15 2656 to describe them. 16 A. It appears to be a fax, and the title of it begins NBC news 17 production systems, NBC mail, and the lines to the story -- 18 shall I continue? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. The "from" line is Windrem, W I N D R E M. 21 MR. DEMBER: May I interrupt? May we publish to the 22 jury on the screen Exhibit 2656? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MR. DEMBER: Thank you. 25 BY MR. DEMBER: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5707 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 Q. That is the page you just read from, Agent Stumf? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That is apparently a news report? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Would you read for us, see where it says Dubai, September 6 22, and then parentheses AFP? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Would you read from that point. 9 A. Alleged terrorist mastermind Osama Bin Laden vowed to free 10 an Egyptian Islamist jailed in the United States for the 1993 11 World Trade Center bombing, in a statement broadcast on Friday. 12 We promise to work with all our power to free our, 13 brother Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, and all our prisoners in 14 America, Egypt and Riyahd, Bin Laden said in a video recording 15 of a meeting with a group of Islamists. 16 Qatar's satellite TV channel Al-Jazeera broadcast the 17 video without giving a date or place for the meeting, in which 18 to Egyptians condemned to death in absentia took part. 19 Bin Laden, a dagger in his belt, was flanked by the 20 Egyptians, Ayman Al-Zawahiri considered his right-hand man, and 21 rifai Ahmad Taha, a leading figure in the armed Egyptian group, 22 Jamaa Islamiya. 23 Assad Allah, son of Sheikh Abdel Rahman who was 24 accused of organizing the bombing of the World Trade Center in 25 New York that killed six people and wounded more than one SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5708 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 thousand, was also at the pleating. 2 The Federal Bureau of Investigation, (FBI) has placed 3 a $5 million price on Bin Laden, who took refuge in Afghanistan 4 in 1996, for the bombing of two embassies in East Africa in 5 1998. 6 Bin Laden, his beard turning white and looking thin, 7 also said one of his followers had been caught "during an 8 operation" in Saudi Arabia. 9 He was arrested trying to fight injustice, atheism and 10 shame, Bin Laden said, without revealing any details. 11 Enough of words. It is time to take action against 12 this iniquitous and faithless force (the United States) which 13 has spread troops through Egypt, Yemen and Saudi Arabia, said 14 Al-Zawahiri, who is applauded by people off camera. 15 Assad Allah, thrice urged Muslims, "Forward to shed 16 blood." 17 Q. Would you turn to the next page would you read that for us. 18 Is that a -- 19 A. It appears to be a fax cover sheet from the law offices of 20 Lynne Stewart, and it gives the address 351 Broadway, Suite 21 300, New York, New York, with a date of 9-25-2000. Pages to 22 follow. It says one, and says to Sattar, gives the number 23 718-442-3513, from Ms. Lynne F. Stewart and the re line is the 24 Sheikh. 25 The bottom it says if you do not receive all these SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5709 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 pages, call -- 2 Q. That is one of the exhibits you found in the search? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. DEMBER: May I approach again, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (Pause) 7 BY MR. DEMBER: 8 Q. Ms. Stumf, before you put aside Exhibit 2656, was there 9 another page to that exhibit, 2656? 10 A. I have two pages and then two fax sheets. 11 Q. You just read one of those fax sheets to us? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Was there a second fax sheet? 14 A. Yes, there is. 15 MR. DEMBER: May we publish that to the jury, your 16 Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 BY MR. DEMBER: 19 Q. Would you read that fax cover sheet for us. 20 A. Also the top, it says law offices of Lynne F. Stewart. The 21 address is 351 Broadway, Suite 300, New York, New York, and it 22 gives a Telephone No. 212-2626-9696 and Fax No. 212-625-3939. 23 The date is 9-25, the Year 2000. The pages to follow it says 24 two. It says to Mohammad Yousry, No. 718-429-9547, and the 25 from line is Lynne F. Stewart. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5710 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 Q. Thank you. Put that down, Agent Stumf. 2 MR. DEMBER: May I approach, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 BY MR. DEMBER: 5 Q. I am going to hand up to you Government Exhibit 2663 now in 6 evidence. 7 MR. DEMBER: May we publish this exhibit for the jury, 8 please? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 BY MR. DEMBER: 11 Q. Agent Stumf, this exhibit consists of how many pages? 12 A. Five. 13 Q. When these five pages were seized, were they stapled 14 together? 15 A. I do not know. When we seize things, if they were stapled 16 together, we did not take a staple out of it. We left it 17 stapled together. 18 Q. Let me ask you to turn to the page of the exhibit which has 19 the exhibit sticker on it. Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you start at the top and read that for us, please. 22 A. The top it says for release. 23 No. 1. Everything said in the previous statement is 24 correct and, indeed I, said those things. Lynne Stewart has 25 been my lawyer since 1994. She defended me in my trial from SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5711 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 beginning to end. She did her utmost and she continues doing 2 it now. Any statement that comes from her, that she confirms 3 is from me, should be taken as if I said it. And when my son 4 said what I he said, I believe he was unaware of these facts. 5 Q. Please. 6 A. 2. I declare that Ahmed Sattar is a Muslim brother who has 7 worked with me all these years and even on my case as a 8 paralegal. I trust everything I have to the degree he holds my 9 power of attorney to act on my behalf and he is the executor of 10 my will. 11 I trust him to give advice to my children in my 12 absence, transfer my body when I die, and to pay off my debts. 13 I testify that he does not speak anything but the truth. To 14 those who accuse him of being an agent, I tell them to fear 15 Allah, and do not say anything that they are not certain of and 16 to watch their tongues. 17 3. Everything that I said, about Sami Derar is 18 correct. What's not correct is when it was said that he was 19 expressing his personal opinion, and that is in quotes, not the 20 opinion of the Egyptian government. Mr. Derar can express 21 personal opinions regarding his household or family matters, 22 but when he speaks on a public matter, this is not a personal 23 opinion. 24 4. Even though the Egyptian government is still 25 killing the innocents and not releasing the detaiinees from SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5712 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 arbitrary imprisonment, and even though they are terrifying 2 people in their homes and other criminal acts continue, I did 3 not cancel the cease fire. I do withdraw my support to the 4 initiative. I expressed my opinion and left the matter to my 5 brothers to examine it and study it because they are the ones 6 who live there and they know the circumstances where they live 7 better than I. 8 I also ask them not to repress any other opinion 9 within the Gama'a even if that is a minority opinion. This is 10 the way we have been since we founded this Gama'a, and we 11 should continue to be open to all opinions. 12 5. Now, after I made my position clear, and there is 13 no ambiguity, I am asking my brothers and sons to withhold 14 public comment and to consider and fear Allah before speaking 15 out. 16 It is signed A Salaam Alikem, Your Brother; Dr. Omar 17 Abdel Rahman, and dated June 20th, 2000. 18 Q. As part of that package of documents, is there a fax cover 19 sheet there? 20 MR. TIGAR: I object to "package of documents," your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. Rephrase. 23 BY MR. DEMBER: 24 Q. Is there a fax cover sheet in that exhibit? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5713 49EJSAT2 Stumf - direct 1 MR. DEMBER: May we display that to the jury? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 BY MR. DEMBER: 4 Q. Would you read that page for us, please. 5 A. This is also headed, law office of Lynne F. Stewart, 351 6 Broadway, Suite 300, New York, New York, 10013. 7 The Telephone No. 212-625-9696 and fax No. 8 212-625-3939, and the date is 6-21-2000. The pages to follow, 9 it says two. And the to line is to Esmat Salaheddin from Lynne 10 Stewart, and the Phone No. 202-574-7078. 11 MR. DEMBER: You may take that off the screen. Your 12 Honor, may I have a moment? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. DEMBER: Nothing further, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. TIGAR: May I examine, your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 CROSS EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. TIGAR: 20 Q. Agent Stumf, what time did you get to Ms. Stewart's office 21 on the 9th of April 2002? 22 A. I believe it was approximately 11:20 am. 23 Q. How many agents were in the group at that time? 24 A. Total agents in the search? 25 Q. Yes, involved in the search at that time? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5714 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 A. There were probably maybe 11. 2 Q. You mentioned on direct examination, did you not, that at 3 some point you called for other people to come and help you, 4 correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Now, when did you make that call? 7 A. I don't know the exact time, but it was pretty much from 8 the beginning. 9 Q. How many more people came? 10 A. I believe four more. 11 Q. You had a total of 15 folks there, correct? 12 A. I don't know the exact number, but I believe maybe a total 13 of 11. I could look at the paperwork. 14 Q. Would it help you to look at the 302 that you all did 15 collectively? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (Pause) 20 BY MR. TIGAR: 21 Q. I am going to show you what has been furnished to us, Agent 22 Stumf, as 3546 A, and if you could take a look at that and tell 23 us how many people were there at the beginning and how many 24 people were there after you called for more? 25 A. Total people at one time was 11. Initially, there were 7 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5715 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 of us, and then we called for four more people showed up. 2 MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 (Pause) 5 BY MR. TIGAR: 6 Q. You mentioned on direct examination that you maintained 7 frequent contact with an Assistant U.S. Attorney named Gary 8 Stein. Is that right? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Were you one of the people who talked to Mr. Stein during 11 the search? 12 A. No, I was not. 13 Q. Was there another agent who was responsible for doing that 14 coordination? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who was that? 17 A. That was Charles Stern. 18 Q. Did you have occasion to talk to Mr. Stern and ask him to 19 contact Mr. Stein about some of the matters that you were 20 looking at? 21 A. I don't believe that any of the matters I was looking at I 22 had a question about. 23 Q. Did you have instructions as to what you're supposed to ask 24 about to get Mr. Stein's opinion? 25 A. Anything that did not fall within the parameters of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5716 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 warrant. 2 Q. Did you have an understanding that Mr. Stein was supposed 3 to deal with issues of attorney-client privilege? 4 A. No, I did not. 5 Q. His advice was only about the parameters of the warrant, as 6 far as you understood, correct? 7 A. As far as I understood. 8 Q. When you arrived with these other agents at 11:20 am, did 9 you come from the FBI office? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Had you had a discussion before that, a team meeting of any 12 kind to talk about how the search was going to be conducted? 13 A. We met prior to the search, yes. 14 Q. Were you aware that there were other searches going on at 15 that time, the time you would be working? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You knew there would be a search of Mr. Sattar's home, 18 correct? 19 A. I believe so, yes. 20 Q. And there would be a search of Mr. Yousry's? 21 A. I believe so, yes. 22 Q. And there would be arrests, correct? 23 A. I don't know about arrests. 24 Q. Did you know whether or not there would be arrests? 25 A. No, I did not. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5717 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 Q. Did you know whether there were activities planned during 2 the day that would take place after your search began by the 3 Justice Department? 4 A. I don't know what you mean by, "activities"? 5 Q. Were you aware there would be a press conference? 6 MR. DEMBER: Objection, your Honor. 7 A. No. 8 THE COURT: The witness answered. 9 BY MR. TIGAR: 10 Q. 351 Broadway is at Broadway, between what two streets? 11 A. It is between Worth and Leonard. I walk by it all the 12 time. It is across the street diagonally from our office. 13 Q. So you walk by it all the time? 14 I would like to have the jurors to have a picture of 15 what it looks like and I would like to ask you some questions 16 so that we could all have this mental picture of the exterior 17 of it and then we'll look at some pictures, okay? 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. On the first two floors there is one of these buffet, 20 "eats" kind of places. Is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That is where people go in and there is a hot table and 23 cold table and you can get food and that sort of thing, 24 correct? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5718 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 Q. This 351 Broadway is a four-story building, right? 2 A. I don't recall how many floors. 3 Q. I don't speak geography. Is it typical of the kind of 4 buildings you find on Broadway, in that neighborhood? 5 A. In that neighborhood? Is it typical? There are a couple 6 of other buildings that are four floors, sure. 7 Q. This is not a luxurious high rise, is it? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Well, it is not luxurious, is it? 10 A. It depends on what your definition of "luxurious" is. It 11 didn't look that bad to me. 12 Q. Pardon me? 13 A. It looked nice. 14 Q. The office looked nice, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. About how many square feet is this office altogether? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Well, about how wide is it? 19 A. I don't remember. 20 Q. How long were you in Ms. Stewart's office? 21 A. 6, 7 hours. 22 Q. During a part of the time you were in Ms. Stewart's office, 23 did you have the door closed? 24 A. In her actual office or in the suite? 25 Q. In her actual office? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5719 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. It is your testimony you never closed the door? 3 A. Not that I recall, no. 4 Q. During the 6 or 7 hours you were in there -- 5 MR. TIGAR: May I show the witness 2680, your Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we are almost at the lunch 8 hour. Let me not waste the time. I can ask about some other 9 things. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 BY MR. TIGAR: 12 Q. Do you remember about how big Ms. Stewart's office is? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. 15 by 15, does that sound about right? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Well, you came in, as you go out of the elevator, you come 17 into a reception area, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Was anyone sitting there in the reception? 20 A. There was someone standing. 21 Q. Who was that? 22 A. Susan Typograph. 23 Q. She identified herself, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Had you ever met her before? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5720 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. Was Pat Levasseur also in the office at that time? 3 A. I believe she was. 4 Q. And she identified herself later as a paralegal? 5 A. I think we asked her, yes, and she identified herself. 6 Q. And then you started the search, correct? 7 A. After we let Susan Typograph leave, we let her read the 8 warrant. We explained to her why we were there. He pointed 9 out whose office was involved and which location, yes. 10 Q. In addition to taking papers and the things you've talked 11 about here, your team also took some computer items, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you have a discussion with anyone about whose computer 14 was who's? 15 A. I believe so, yes. 16 Q. Weren't you told that the computers that were there were 17 used by -- 18 MR. DEMBER: Objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 BY MR. TIGAR: 21 Q. With whom did you have a conversation about whose computers 22 were who's? 23 A. I don't believe I had a conversation. 24 Q. Did a conversation about that take place in your presence? 25 A. I don't think so. I don't remember. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5721 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 Q. Are you aware of what computer equipment was seized? 2 A. Vaguely aware. I remember. 3 Q. In fact, you seized a hard drive -- how many hard drives 4 did you take? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 (Pause) 9 BY MR. TIGAR: 10 Q. I am showing you now what has been marked to us as 11 Government Exhibit 3546 E. How many hard drives did you take? 12 A. It looks like there's -- 13 MR. DEMBER: Objection. The witness isn't supposed to 14 be reading from the document. 15 THE COURT: All right. You are shown a document and 16 asked whether it refreshes your recollection as to how many 17 hard drives you seized. Look at the document and see if it 18 refreshes your recollection. You're not being asked just to 19 read the document. 20 BY MR. TIGAR: 21 Q. Does that document refresh your recollection? 22 A. Sort of. 23 Q. With your recollection thus refreshed, how many hard drives 24 did you take? 25 A. Some we took and some there were copies made of them. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5722 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 (Pause) 4 BY MR. TIGAR: 5 Q. I am going to show you 3546 A, and would you look at the 6 last two pages and see if that refreshes your recollection 7 about how many hard drives you took? 8 A. There are four hard drives on this document. 9 Q. Well, how many of those did -- 10 A. One -- 11 MR. DEMBER: Objection, your Honor, the witness is 12 reading from a document not in evidence. 13 THE COURT: All right. Agent Stumf, when you're shown 14 a document and asked if it refreshes your recollection, read 15 the document, and then you're not being asked to simply read it 16 into the record. 17 You are being asked whether it refreshes your 18 recollection as to a subject, which is why the question is 19 usually phrased, "having read the document and with your memory 20 thus refreshed, tell us what your current recollection is," all 21 right? 22 THE WITNESS: I believe four hard drives. 23 BY MR. TIGAR: 24 Q. Were seized? 25 A. Were seized. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5723 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 Q. And a computer? 2 A. And a computer. 3 MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 (Pause) 6 BY MR. TIGAR: 7 Q. Did you play any part in downloading information off of 8 hard drives? 9 A. No. 10 Q. That was the computer response team people who did that? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, at this point it had been my 13 intention to go through some of these photographs and ask Agent 14 Stumf to pick out some things. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. TIGAR: But the Elmo doesn't work. 17 THE COURT: That is all right. We are just about at 18 the lunch hour, so we can break for lunch now, ladies and 19 gentlemen. 20 We are going to break for a somewhat longer lunch, 21 until 2:00 o'clock. Please remember my continuing 22 instructions. Don't talk about the case at all. Always 23 remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all of the 24 evidence, I've instructed you on the law, you've gone to the 25 jury room to begin your deliberations. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5724 49EJSAT2 Stumf - cross 1 Have a good lunch. Hopefully, I will see you later 2 today. 3 (Jury excused) 4 THE COURT: Please be back at 2:00 o'clock. Have a 5 good lunch. I look forward to seeing you this afternoon. 6 (Luncheon recess) 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5725 49eesat3 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 2:22 p.m. 3 (In open court; jury not present) 4 THE COURT: Good afternoon, all. Please be seated. 5 You know, all right. The witness is on the stand. I'll take 6 up the letter I just got from Mr. Dember at the break. 7 All right. Let's bring in the jury. 8 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, when you rule on an objection, 9 would you please speak into the microphone clearly, because I 10 was -- 11 THE COURT: Yes, I'm sorry. 12 MR. TIGAR: It was not out of disrespect, I was just 13 having trouble hearing what was being said to me. 14 THE COURT: I know. I'll try. I often speak very 15 softly. 16 MR. TIGAR: Shall I stand at the lecturn, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: As you prefer. 18 (Continued on next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5726 49eesat3 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 3 Good to see you all. 4 Ms. Stumf is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Agent Stumf, you're reminded you 6 are still under oath. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Tigar. 8 MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 BY MR. TIGAR: 11 Q. Agent Stumf, I have placed before you what I've marked as 12 LS46. And could you look on the back of that photograph. 13 That's LS? 14 A. 45. 15 Q. 45. Now, looking first at LS45, do you recognize that as a 16 picture that the FBI photographer took on the 9th of April, 17 2002? 18 A. I believe it is, yes. 19 Q. And is that a picture of the library at the Stewart office? 20 A. I believe it is, yes. 21 MR. TIGAR: We offer that, your Honor, LS45. 22 MR. DEMBER: Can I see it, your Honor. I just want to 23 see which one it is. 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. DEMBER: May I approach, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5727 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. DEMBER: No objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: LS45 received in evidence. 4 (Defendant's Exhibit LS45 received in evidence) 5 BY MR. TIGAR: 6 Q. Now, would you look at LS46, please. Do you recognize the 7 three people not in uniform in that picture? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And are they members of the search team? 10 A. Yes, they're members of the CART team, computer team. 11 Q. Is that CART all caps? 12 A. CART. 13 Q. And does that show them coming out of the door at 351 14 Broadway? 15 A. It shows them coming out of the door. I don't see an 16 address, but I assume it's 351 Broadway. 17 MR. DEMBER: Objection, your Honor, as to assumption. 18 THE COURT: All right. Sustained. 19 Q. Do you remember when you went into the offices at 351 20 Broadway seeing the hat salesman and the other indicators that 21 are around the door there? 22 A. No, I don't. I don't remember. 23 Q. Do you remember anything about the -- what you see in the 24 picture there that would help you to tell the jury whether or 25 not you recognize that as being a representation of something SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5728 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 that occurred on the 9th of April? 2 A. I don't recall that, no. 3 Q. Now, I want to turn to some of the locations of items that 4 you seized and some of the things that you seized along with 5 the matters that have been introduced in evidence. I'd like to 6 begin with Ms. Stewart's office. 7 Now, do you have in front of you the collective FBI 8 302 that you prepared that was dated the 10th of April, the one 9 I showed you earlier? I know I've taken my copy back. 10 Would it help you to answer the questions that I would 11 ask about where things were found if you had that in front of 12 you to refresh your recollection? 13 A. It might. 14 MR. TIGAR: May the government please provide a -- 15 excuse me. May I approach, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. I'm going to give you a copy of 3546A, which is not in 18 evidence, but to make this process easier on all of us, if you 19 need to look at it, please do, but just let us know that that's 20 what you're doing to refresh your recollection. 21 MR. TIGAR: Is that permissible, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. TIGAR: Now, may I show the witness 2680 in 24 evidence, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5729 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 BY MR. TIGAR: 2 Q. I'm going to place on the Elmo, Agent, page three, but it's 3 the second page of the exhibit. That's a diagram you made of 4 Ms. Stewart's office, correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And where it says windows here where my finger is, 7 that's -- those are windows that look out on Broadway, correct? 8 A. I believe so, yes. 9 Q. And the desk is her desk, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And this says over here by my finger long cabinet, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And then you've got two bookcases, is that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, along the window there are air conditioning/heating 16 units, are there not, in the office? 17 A. I don't recall. 18 MR. TIGAR: May I show the witness, your Honor, 2689 19 in evidence? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Q. This is 2689 in evidence, Agent Stumf. That is -- see if 22 we can zoom in just a little bit. Now it's a little dark, but 23 that's Ms. Stewart's desk, correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Where I've got my finger. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5730 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 And then behind it, where I'm running my finger 2 across, do you see that air conditioning/heating unit there? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that provides actually a shelf on which she's got some 5 pictures and a pad and a telephone and a computer monitor, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So that -- she was using that as a kind of credenza, right? 9 A. It appears so, yes. 10 Q. Now, earlier I was asking you if you remember how big her 11 office is, do you recall that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you didn't recall as you sit here today, correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. But the papers on her desk, and I'm going to put my finger 16 here, these are just ordinary sized business papers and 17 business envelopes, correct? 18 A. They appear to be. 19 Q. And where I've got my finger down on the lower right there, 20 that appears to be an ordinary file box, correct? 21 A. Yes, appears to be a box. 22 Q. And when you say a box, and I ask you the question ordinary 23 file box, I'm referring to a banker box which looks like 24 something you would put files in, correct? 25 A. It appears to be. It could be, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5731 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 Q. So if that's what that is, that would give us a hint about 2 how big the office is, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, you told us that you spent seven or eight hours in 5 there, is that right? 6 A. In the entire suite, yes. 7 Q. How much time did you spend in Ms. Stewart's office? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Was it more than three hours? 10 A. I couldn't even estimate. I don't know that. 11 Q. Were you there all the time that the other agents that were 12 working with you in that office were doing their work? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You would be in and out? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you discuss with those agents each item that was seized 17 from her office? 18 A. Each item that they seized from her office? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. I don't think so, no. I don't remember. 21 Q. Do you remember the kinds of -- now, were these agents less 22 experienced than you? 23 A. In terms of years, you mean, or -- 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. I believe one of them might have been, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5732 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 Q. Were they looking to you for leadership in determining what 2 should be seized and what not? 3 A. Myself and the other -- well, there was one agent that had 4 more experience than me, myself and him, yes; to the extent 5 that we could without calling the assistant. 6 Q. Now, before you started work in that office, did you have a 7 talk as to what you were going to be looking for? 8 A. Excuse me? 9 Q. Before you started working in Ms. Stewart's office, did you 10 have a talk about what you were going to be looking for? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And those were the items that were listed in the search 13 warrant, yes? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, in order to find out what you would seize and not 16 seize, did you look at everything in the office? 17 A. I think so. I mean, from what I remember we tried to look 18 at everything, yes. 19 MR. TIGAR: For example -- may I show the witness, 20 please, 2691. 21 THE COURT: In evidence? 22 MR. TIGAR: In evidence, yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 BY MR. TIGAR: 25 Q. Now, this is a view looking back at the corner with those SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5733 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 bookcases, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And do you see where my finger is pointing, that big thing 4 that says bar none; is that what that says? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, you were instructed, were you not, to seize things 7 that related to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 8 A. That's correct. 9 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry. May I approach, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. I'm going to show you what we have marked as LS44. I'm 12 going to ask you if you'd look at it. 13 THE COURT: Show it to Mr. Dember. 14 MR. DEMBER: I have a problem, your Honor, and we 15 object to any further questions about this particular exhibit. 16 And I could hand up a copy if you want to see it. 17 THE COURT: Let's take it up at the break. 18 MR. TIGAR: Well, I'll defer. 19 BY MR. TIGAR: 20 Q. Did you seize that item? 21 A. No, we did not. 22 Q. Did you read it? 23 A. I don't recall reading it, no. 24 Q. Do you know whether anybody else read it? 25 A. No, I don't. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5734 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 Q. Taking a look, please, at the files, the file folders that 2 are in front of you, the Redwelds, can you please tell the jury 3 which ones of those were taken from Ms. Stewart's office. 4 A. Do you want the Government Exhibit numbers? 5 Q. Yes, the exhibit number, please. 6 A. Government Exhibit 2607, Government Exhibit 2606, 7 Government Exhibit 2605 and Government Exhibit 2604. 8 MR. TIGAR: May I show the witness on the Elmo, your 9 Honor, and display to the jury Government Exhibit 2604? 10 THE COURT: Yes. In evidence? 11 MR. TIGAR: In evidence, yes. 12 Q. Now, this is the part of that that we can show on the Elmo. 13 That is in a manila file pocket, is that right, 2604? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And it says Ahmed, Nasser, 2454/96, correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And at the time you seized that, it had in it a number of 18 items, correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And some of those items you had identified for the Court 21 and jury today, correct? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And others that were in there you did not, right? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. When you finished your search on the 9th of April, did you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5735 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 have instructions as to where you were to take the things that 2 you had seized? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You were to take them to the -- to where? 5 A. Back to our office. 6 Q. To the FBI office? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did you know what was to happen to them after they went 9 back to the FBI office? 10 A. We were going to enter them into our evidence. 11 Q. Did you participate in that process? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And was there -- were there agents in charge of logging 14 them into evidence? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who were those agents? 17 A. I brought them up to evidence and our evidence control 18 person logged it in. 19 Q. Did you have any instructions about which agents were 20 entitled to see the things and which ones were not? 21 A. No, I don't recall. 22 Q. If I said the words wall team, would that refresh your 23 recollection about it? 24 A. Yes. Well, we were not to show any of the case agents 25 anything, but the -- if you're talking about the agents on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5736 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 search -- 2 Q. Yes. I didn't mean to interrupt your answer. 3 There was a procedure that you were supposed to 4 follow, correct, that had something to do with a wall team, is 5 that right? 6 A. We just weren't supposed to show them any of the documents. 7 Q. And from whom did you get that direction? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Do you remember ever talking to an assistant United States 10 attorney named Gary Stein about this issue? 11 A. Prior to the search or during the search? 12 Q. Prior to the search. 13 A. I don't recall. I don't think so. I don't think I did. 14 Q. Within the two or three days after the search did you talk 15 to Mr. Stein? 16 A. I might -- I probably did, yes. 17 Q. Did that conversation or did those conversations relate to 18 this evidence that you had seized? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you memorialize that conversation? 21 A. No. 22 MR. TIGAR: Now, may I show the witness, please, 2690, 23 your Honor, in evidence. 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 Q. Now, this is a view similar to the one I showed you before. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5737 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 I have my finger here. These -- this is, where I'm putting my 2 finger, that's Ms. Stewart's desk, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And did you and the other agents read everything that was 5 on her desk? 6 A. I don't think we read it word for word, but I think we 7 looked at it to get the gist of what the document was as to 8 whether or not that was something we should or shouldn't take. 9 Q. And is this picture taken before things were seized or 10 after things were seized? 11 A. I'm not sure. Might have been taken before. 12 Q. So -- but you're not sure? 13 A. But I'm not sure. 14 Q. Now, the item which we've just been looking at a moment 15 ago, Government Exhibit 2604, the manila folder, where was that 16 when you seized it? 17 A. That was in a box on the floor. 18 Q. Now, was it in the same box with 2605, 2606 and 2607? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, that box, was it an ordinary file box like you see in 21 the courtroom? 22 A. I don't recall. I don't remember. 23 Q. Do you see that box in any of the pictures that you have 24 sponsored in evidence today? 25 A. No. The only thing I can think of, that's one of the boxes SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5738 49eesat3 Stumf - Cross 1 behind the chair. 2 Q. One of the boxes behind -- 3 MR. TIGAR: May I show the witness 2690 in evidence, 4 your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. When you say "behind the chair," could you -- is that on 7 the picture? Is that where my finger is pointing right now, 8 behind this chair? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And in this box, then, were -- was this file folder 2604. 11 MR. TIGAR: And then may I show the witness, your