8117 4b4esat1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 4, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8118 4b4esat1 1 (Trial continuing) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: I received a letter from Mr. Fallick dated 4 November 3 concerning some items. When will the government 5 respond? 6 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I would like a couple of 7 days to submit a response. I don't think this issue is going 8 to come up until probably maybe two weeks when Mr. Sattar 9 actually testifies. If I could submit a response by Monday. 10 THE COURT: Yes, Monday is fine. You say "when." You 11 know, whether Mr. Sattar testifies. And it's completely up to 12 Mr. Sattar advised by counsel. So -- 13 MR. MORVILLO: I just said that because he says in the 14 letter that Mr. Sattar will testify. 15 THE COURT: OK. The reason that I so often repeat 16 that is that I never want anyone to be under any misconception. 17 And I always want to make sure that the defendants understand 18 that it's their right to either testify or not testify, advised 19 by counsel. And it's completely up to them. So I never assume 20 it. I don't presume it. I don't like statements that seem to 21 indicate one way or another what will happen because that 22 decision is always up to the defendants advised by counsel. 23 OK. I got no other correspondence. We're ready to 24 proceed. Is everyone ready for the jury? 25 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8119 4b4esat1 1 THE COURT: OK. Ms. Stewart is on the stand. 2 (Continued on next page) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8120 4b4esat1 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It's 3 good to see you all. 4 All right. Ms. Stewart is on the stand. 5 Mr. Fletcher? 6 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Ms. Stewart, you are reminded you 7 are still under oath. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Dember, you may proceed. 10 MR. DEMBER: Thank you, your Honor. 11 LYNNE STEWART, resumed. 12 CROSS EXAMINATION (continued) 13 BY MR. DEMBER: 14 Q. Good morning, Ms. Stewart. 15 A. Good morning, Mr. Dember. 16 Q. Ms. Stewart, yesterday we talked briefly about the fact 17 that after Abdel Rahman was convicted after trial, there is an 18 appeal was taken in his case, is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And he, as a matter of right, had a right to appeal his 21 conviction and sentence, did he not? 22 A. He did, yes. 23 Q. And I think you told us that you acted as a consultant of 24 some kind with the attorneys who were preparing the appeal 25 brief and who actually argued the appeal before the Court of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8121 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Appeals? 2 A. Well, I wouldn't exactly call it a consultant. I was part 3 of the team that worked on the brief, but it was headed by 4 Ramsey Clark and Larry Schilling. And we consulted but we -- 5 but they carried the main burden of the preparation and then 6 the argument. 7 Q. And I think you told us that you actually reviewed the 8 brief itself, you read through it? 9 A. Yes, I read through it. 10 Q. You were the chief trial attorney representing Abdel Rahman 11 at the trial, correct? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. And so you had the most active role at trial in defending 14 him, is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And obviously -- well, you were there essentially every day 17 to defend him, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Mr. Clark was not there every day? 20 A. No. He came actually rarely, but he was there on some 21 occasions. 22 Q. And Mr. Jabara, was he there every day? 23 A. He was there virtually every day, yes. He was my second 24 seat, yes. 25 Q. And I think you indicated Mr. Schilling assisted on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8122 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 appeal? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was he there at the trial every day? 4 A. I don't think he was in attendance at the trial except 5 perhaps in the audience. 6 Q. Now, you recall yesterday we had some discussion about 7 wiretap evidence that was introduced against your client at 8 trial? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that was a wiretap that had been placed on his 11 telephone? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And we had some discussion about a decision that Judge 14 Mukasey issued about the challenging of the propriety of that 15 intercepted -- those intercepted calls, is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When you reviewed the appeal, did you and the other 18 attorneys raise or challenge Judge Mukasey's ruling on the 19 propriety of the government using that wiretap evidence? 20 A. Not that I recall. And as I said yesterday, it's still my 21 belief that there was some waiver involved at some point in 22 that litigation. I did read the opinion you gave me, but that 23 was my -- 24 Q. The question, though, is: You didn't raise that issue on 25 appeal, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8123 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 A. I don't believe we did, no. 2 Q. You had testified, and we discussed yesterday, the fact 3 that you were not permitted to call certain witnesses at the 4 trial, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You referred to them as expert witnesses, I believe? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And that was a ruling -- that was based on a ruling made by 9 Judge Mukasey, is that correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And you did raise that issue in the appeal, did you not? 12 A. I believe it was raised in the appeal, yes. 13 Q. And the Court of Appeals ruled that Judge Mukasey's ruling 14 was correct? 15 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 Q. Did you on the appeal challenge the sufficiency of the 18 evidence that was presented in the case? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. In fact, you challenged the sufficiency of the evidence -- 21 sufficiency of the evidence that was presented as to each of 22 the charges that Abdel Rahman was convicted of, is that 23 correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And the Court ruled on that challenge? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8124 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 MR. TIGAR: Ask it to be stricken. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken. 5 BY MR. DEMBER: 6 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, I would like, if I could, to move on to a 7 different topic. And during your testimony you discussed with 8 us in direct examination this ceasefire that existed in Egypt. 9 You know what I'm talking about, correct? 10 A. The peace initiative, yes. 11 Q. Peace initiative. I think you used in the press release 12 the word "ceasefire," is that right? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. OK. And I think you told us it was your understanding that 15 the ceasefire went into place or came into being sometime in 16 1997, is that right? 17 A. Yes, that's right. 18 Q. And the people who essentially called for this ceasefire 19 was a group of people known as the Islamic Group, is that your 20 understanding? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. I guess the Arabic is something like Gama'a Islamiyya, is 23 that correct? 24 A. That's what I understand, yes. 25 Q. I'm asking about your understanding, of course. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8125 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 A. OK. 2 Q. And was it also your understanding then -- I'm sorry. 3 Back in 1997 were you aware that this ceasefire had 4 come into existence? 5 A. I think it was reported. I think I was aware on some 6 level. I can't tell you where I got the information from. 7 Q. You may have got it from the newspapers? 8 A. Maybe, or -- 9 Q. Or from some other source? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Perhaps talking to others in the community that you know? 12 A. Yes. Anything is possible. I really can't tell you. 13 Q. And was it your understanding back in 1997 that this 14 ceasefire was essentially a unilateral action taken by the 15 Islamic Group? 16 A. I think I understood that they initiated it; in other 17 words, that it came from them and their leaders. I may have 18 heard that from the attorney, Muntasir Al-Zayat. 19 Q. Have you ever spoken to Muntasir Al-Zayat about the 20 ceasefire? 21 A. It would have been third-hand. I mean, it would have been 22 either through the Sheikh or through Ramsey Clark, would have 23 told me that. But it was my understanding it was -- he carried 24 the message, he was the emissary mainly from the people in the 25 jail that carried the message about the initiative. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8126 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Well, you just said that you may have heard it from Abdel 2 Rahman that the ceasefire was essentially called by the group. 3 Was this during the visit or a telephone call with Abdel 4 Rahman? 5 A. It could have been either. You know, he's read the papers 6 very regularly. I'm sure that was something someone would have 7 approved for him to hear, and he would have had it read to him. 8 I can't really remember, Mr. Dember. As I said earlier, I'm 9 not clear on how I learned it. 10 Q. Well, you say in '97 you learned about the ceasefire at 11 some point somehow, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And did you actually eventually come to learn that, in 14 fact, it was sort of a unilateral action or decision by these 15 members of this Islamic Group? 16 A. I'm not exactly clear what you mean by "unilateral." 17 Q. Let me clarify it, then. Did you have any understanding 18 that it was a result of members of the Islamic Group sitting 19 down with members of the Egyptian government and working out a 20 ceasefire? 21 A. No, I don't think that happened. 22 Q. In fact, you never understood the ceasefire to mean that, 23 is that right? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. You never understood it to mean that it was the result of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8127 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 some negotiations between members or representatives of the 2 Islamic Group and Egyptian officials or representatives of the 3 Egyptian government, is that right? 4 A. My understanding I think was, as time progressed, there 5 were informal meetings. There were, in fact, meetings in which 6 certain concessions were made and other concessions were given. 7 There was some discussion. But I think that was at a later 8 date. That may have been in '98, '99. I'm not sure but I 9 think if -- as time passed there was some discussion. 10 Q. When it was initiated, though, it was, as I said, or asked, 11 unilateral; in other words, a decision by the people in the 12 Islamic Group? 13 A. Yes. I think they initiated it, yes. 14 Q. And before the existence of the ceasefire, was it your 15 understanding that members of the Islamic Group had engaged in 16 violent conduct in Egypt and elsewhere around the world? 17 A. I don't think around the world, I think only in Egypt. 18 But, yes, that was my understanding. 19 Q. And it was -- was it also your understanding before the 20 ceasefire went into effect that the Islamic Group, in fact, 21 engaged in killing of various types of people? 22 A. Yes, that was my understanding. 23 Q. And was it also your understanding that some of those 24 people consisted of tourists? 25 A. Yes, I -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8128 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I didn't finish the question. 2 Tourists who had come to Egypt to obviously visit the 3 ancient sites, temples and pyramids and other tourist sites in 4 Egypt? 5 A. Well, I can't speak to why they came to Egypt, but I knew 6 that there were deaths of tourists, yes. 7 Q. Now, I believe you told us that at some point in time you 8 became aware that Abdel Rahman -- this is, I guess, before you 9 started your full representation of him in court -- that he had 10 in the past advocated violence, is that right? Was that your 11 testimony? 12 A. Yeah. I can't pinpoint when I learned that, but I came to 13 learn that, certainly. 14 Q. In fact, I think you told us in your testimony, I don't 15 know if you remember this, that, I know that that was part of 16 his background and program. Do you remember saying that -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- when questioned? 19 Now, at some point in time after that, after the 20 trial, after he was sentenced, you learned -- I think you told 21 us you learned that he had now given his support for the 22 ceasefire, is that right? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. And you told us that was sometime in 1997, correct? 25 A. Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8129 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. And that he had apparently issued a statement through 2 Ramsey Clark, is that right? 3 A. Yes, I believe that's how it was done. 4 Q. And Mr. Clark had publicized the statement, is that right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, I think you told us that you recalled that happening 7 in the fall of -- or late fall of 1997. Was that -- do you 8 remember that being your testimony? 9 A. There are two things that stand out in ' 97 for me. One 10 was his repudiation of the violence, and also then there was 11 another instance where he repudiated the Luxor attack. He did 12 both those things in '97. I may have -- I may have put one on 13 the cart before the horse, or the horse before whatever it was. 14 I know at one point he stood with the so-called ceasefire or 15 peace initiative, and at one point he also said that Luxor was 16 wrong and that the killing of civilians was not warranted, etc. 17 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, was it your understanding back in '97, 18 certainly when Abdel Rahman through Mr. Clark had represented 19 that he no longer -- he supported a ceasefire, that Abdel 20 Rahman was a person who had influence over people within the 21 Islamic Group; that his word meant something to members of that 22 group? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Fair to say he was considered very influential? 25 A. Very -- I do think -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8130 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Very influential within the group? 2 A. Influential. Yes, he was someone that -- whose advice they 3 took seriously, but I wouldn't say that he was a commander in 4 chief or anything. He wasn't obeyed by rote, but his input was 5 very important, yes. 6 Q. Obviously by that time he was -- he had already been 7 sentenced to the sentence he received? 8 A. Yes, exactly. 9 Q. And he had essentially no direct contact with any members 10 of the group at that time, because he was in jail, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, do you remember that the press release or the 13 statement that Mr. Clark made about Abdel Rahman supporting the 14 ceasefire came out actually in the summer of 1997? Do you 15 remember that being the case? 16 A. I'll take your word for it. As I said, I tend to mix them 17 up, but was that the summer of -- 18 Q. Don't take my word for it. 19 MR. DEMBER: May I approach the witness, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Yes. Yes, you may. 21 Q. Ms. Stewart, I've just handed you a document. We've marked 22 it for identification as Government Exhibit 22. 23 MR. DEMBER: I'm sorry. May I just approach 24 Ms. Stewart for a moment, just to point to a section of the 25 document. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8131 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. DEMBER: Make it easier. 3 Q. Would you just take a look at the document. Read it to 4 yourself. I've marked some sections, it might make it easier 5 for you. 6 And tell us if, just having looked at the document, it 7 refreshes your recollection as to when the statement by Abdel 8 Rahman was released by Ramsey Clark. 9 A. Yes. It does refresh my recollection. It was in August of 10 1997. 11 Q. And is it also your recollection that the statement that 12 was issued was essentially a one-sentence statement indicating 13 his support? 14 A. I remember it as being longer, but as I said, it was a 15 while ago. And I'm -- I don't commit this to memory. So -- 16 but at any rate, it definitely was the sense of it, that he was 17 saying that the -- he supported the ceasefire peace initiative. 18 Q. Now, at that time do you recall that Abdel Rahman was 19 actually at the Springfield, Missouri federal medical facility 20 when that happened? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you know at that time, around that time or any time in 23 '97 or later, that while there were some members of the Islamic 24 Group who certainly supported and agreed with Abdel Rahman 25 about the ceasefire, were you aware of the fact in '97 or '98, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8132 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 1998, that it wasn't necessarily agreed upon by all the members 2 of the group? 3 A. I'm not certain I knew that specifically, but there, of 4 course, was that -- I think there was introduced into evidence 5 an article that I explained Nasser Ahmed had translated for me 6 and which I stuck in the file and never looked at again. But I 7 must have read it at that point, which indicated that there was 8 disagreement. 9 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. DEMBER: May I approach the witness, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 BY MR. DEMBER: 14 Q. Ms. Stewart, I'm going to hand up to you what is in 15 evidence as Government Exhibit 2671. Is that the document 16 you're referring to? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. DEMBER: And may I display it for the jury, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. DEMBER: I'm just going to display for the jury 22 the first, part of the first page, very top. 23 Q. I think you told us this was a document -- you just told us 24 this was a translation done for you by Nasser Ahmed. 25 A. Yes, while he was in jail. It was part of his case, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8133 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 actually. 2 Q. And it was a trans -- on the top of the exhibit it says 3 Al-Hayat, and then 10/26/98. Do you see that? 4 A. I do. 5 Q. It was your understanding that this was a translation of an 6 Al-Hayat news article from that day? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And without trying to read it again, as I tried to before, 9 it refers to this fellow named Rifa'i Taha, is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. As best as you can recall, when Mr. Ahmed -- let me stop 12 the question first. 13 We've referred to him as Nasser Ahmed. Is his full 14 name Nasser Ahmed Homosany? 15 A. I think that's his full name. 16 Q. Let me refer to him as Mr. Homosany, or do you refer to him 17 only as Nasser Ahmed? 18 A. I refer to him as Nasser, but whatever suits is fine. 19 Q. OK. Well, let's make it short. We'll call him Mr. Ahmed 20 for the moment. 21 When he translated this article for you, or before he 22 did, had you ever heard the name Rifa'i Taha before? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Is it your best recollection that when -- he translated 25 this for you and you apparently read it, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8134 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. That was the first time you had ever heard the name Rifa'i 3 Taha? 4 A. I think that's probably true. 5 Q. And was it -- withdrawn. 6 But the essence that you took away from this article 7 was that perhaps Mr. Taha wasn't on board with the ceasefire 8 necessarily with the other members of the group; is that a fair 9 statement? 10 A. Yeah. It -- our usefulness of this for Mr. Ahmed's case 11 was that this was done in '98, as you said, almost a year 12 later. That was used to show that the peace initiative was 13 still in effect because, of course, he had also been accused of 14 being part of the IG. And so although it's a statement by 15 Taha, it was really to establish he thought that the peace 16 initiative was still in effect and that, therefore, it should 17 not be of concern to the judge. 18 Q. Ms. Stewart, let me just point to one thing on the article. 19 It indicates on top, read the title, apparently says Rifa'i 20 Taha to "al-Hayat," no change in the Islamic Group strategies. 21 Am I reading that correctly? 22 A. You are. 23 Q. And then it indicates Cairo, and Mohammed Salah. Did you 24 come to know Mr. Salah as being a reporter who wrote for 25 Al-Hayat? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8135 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 A. Yes, I knew the name, yes. 2 Q. And in just the first line it says Rifa'i Taha, and then 3 parentheses, Abu Yasir. Do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Thank you. 6 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness 7 again. 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Q. Ms. Stewart, I just placed before you an exhibit you 10 introduced, LS203, is that correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I display this exhibit 13 for the jury. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 Q. We referred to this and discussed this exhibit briefly 16 yesterday, did we not? 17 A. We did. 18 Q. OK. And I believe I read the first few lines in the first 19 paragraph of this exhibit, do you recall that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. OK. Let me read the next paragraph. It says, the 22 procedures are reasonably necessary to prevent you from 23 engaging in additional terrorist activities. Moreover, these 24 procedures are the last restrictive available. 25 MR. TIGAR: Least restrictive. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8136 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 MR. DEMBER: I'm sorry. 2 THE COURT: Least. 3 MR. DEMBER: I'm sorry. 4 Q. Are the least restrictive available means to prevent you 5 from engaging in or assisting others from engaging in or 6 soliciting future terrorist actions or activities. 7 Accordingly, the following special administrative procedures 8 will be implemented by the Bureau of Prisons. 9 And then the document goes through what those 10 restrictions are, is that right? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. OK. Would you read for us the next section involving 13 telephone conversations. 14 A. Telephone conversations: One, you shall be limited to 15 telephone calls to your attorney(s) of record and to your wife. 16 Telephone calls to your attorneys and to your wife will be 17 placed by a Bureau of Prisons staff member and the telephone 18 will be provided to you only after the staff member confirms 19 that the person to whom you will speak is your attorney or your 20 wife. 21 Two, you shall be permitted to place telephone calls 22 to your attorney(s) of record only in accordance with the usual 23 existing Bureau of Prisons regulations. Your privilege to 24 place telephone calls to your attorneys is also subject to the 25 following, additional restrictions: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8137 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 (a) Your attorney(s) may not patch or transfer 2 telephone calls to third parties; 3 (b) Your attorney(s) may not put you on the telephone 4 or allow conversations with a third party or third parties in 5 the attorney(s) office or offices; 6 (c) Your attorney(s) must instruct his/her/their 7 staff members that only your attorney or attorneys may speak 8 with you and that your telephone conversations may not be 9 patched or transferred to third parties; 10 (d) Your attorney(s) must sign an affirmation 11 acknowledging that he/she/they will abide by the 12 above-referenced restrictions. 13 Q. OK. I'd ask you to read for us the section on visitation. 14 A. Visitation. One, you shall be permitted to visit only with 15 family members and your attorney(s) and only in accordance with 16 existing Bureau of Prisons regulations. You shall only visit 17 with one person at a time, except that to the extent that you 18 have more than one attorney and a translator is necessary, two 19 attorneys and a translator may visit at one time. 20 Two, translators shall only visit you in the presence 21 of an attorney or attorneys or for the purpose of facilitating 22 communication with the Bureau of Prisons. Translators shall 23 not be alone in the room with you. Translators will only be 24 allowed to perform translation duties in accordance with the 25 usual existing Bureau of Prisons regulations. In addition, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8138 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 translators may not perform translation duties without prior 2 written clearance from the Bureau of Prisons after consultation 3 with the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the United States 4 Attorney's Office -- that's attorney -- attorney's, possessive, 5 office for the Southern District of New York. 6 Q. And just one last section. Would you read the mail 7 section, please. 8 A. Mail. One, your attorney shall not forward your mail to 9 third parties. 10 Two, except for legal mail addressed to your 11 attorney(s) of record, all outgoing mail shall be copied and 12 its distribution may be delayed for a reasonable period to 13 allow for translation and analysis. If your outgoing mail is 14 determined to contain requests, suggestions or solicitations 15 for illegal activities, it shall not be delivered. Outgoing 16 mail directed to a member of the news media shall be delayed 17 for a reasonable period of time to ensure that it does not 18 contain any requests, suggestion, solicitation or encouragement 19 of illegal activities. 20 Q. Thank you, Ms. Stewart. Now, the last page, just so we 21 remind the jury again, it just has the attestation and it just 22 has places for people to sign, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Now, I believe you told us yesterday that this version of 25 the SAMs was the first version that you were aware of having SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8139 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 been in existence, is that correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And they were in existence in 1997, is that correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And that's the same year that Ramsey Clark issued his press 6 release, is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And I believe you testified last week, did you not, that 9 Ramsey Clark making the press release -- I'm quoting here -- 10 Ramsey Clark making the press release in which the Sheikh 11 endorsed the peace initiative was outside the letter of the 12 SAMs. 13 Do you remember saying that? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. OK. And what provision of the SAMs you just read did he 16 violate, Ms. Stewart? 17 A. Well, I think it would fall under the outgoing mail 18 directed to a member of the news media. 19 Q. Well, do you think that somebody taking a statement and 20 simply reporting a statement is mail? Is that your definition 21 of mail? 22 A. No. When I said it was outside the letter of the SAMs, I 23 meant as the intent is expressed in here. But I did not mean, 24 of course, that it was outside the duties of his attorney, 25 Ramsey Clark, to do this. I meant that it happened. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8140 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Ms. Stewart -- I'm sorry, did you finish? 2 A. I said I meant that it happened. 3 Q. Ms. Stewart, you said it was outside the letter of the 4 SAMs, is that right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. That's what you said last week, did you not? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. There is not a single provision in this version of the SAMs 9 that prevents Abdel Rahman or his lawyer from actually talking 10 to a member of the news media, is there? 11 A. I guess not. I certainly read it to mean that you shall 12 not forward anything. 13 Q. When -- mail is anything? 14 A. Well -- 15 Q. Is it not very particular and specifically talk about mail, 16 does it? 17 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you? 18 Q. Does it specifically refer to mail? 19 A. It does. 20 Q. Is your understanding of what constitutes mail letters and 21 packages and things that the US postal service or a private 22 courier service would transport? 23 A. I guess that's a fair definition of mail, yes. 24 Q. So if Ramsey Clark had a conversation with Abdel Rahman and 25 simply repeated that to a member of the news media, would you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8141 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 call that mail as well? 2 A. No. I wouldn't. 3 MR. DEMBER: May I approach the witness, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 BY MR. DEMBER: 8 Q. Ms. Stewart, I'm going to hand up to you a document that's 9 been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 906. Have 10 you ever seen that document before? 11 A. I'm not certain that I did. 12 Q. Well, do you recognize, outside the handwriting that's on 13 the document, do you recognize the content, other than the 14 handwriting? 15 A. Yes, I believe this was the first affirmation we all 16 signed, and that Mr. Clark added his own caveat at the bottom, 17 his own -- 18 Q. His own language? 19 A. Put an additional phraseology into it, let's put it that 20 way. 21 Q. Do you know Mr. Clark's handwriting? 22 A. I believe that's his handwriting. 23 Q. OK. Do you see -- are you familiar with his signature? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And do you see his signature on the document? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8142 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Do you see that on -- in two different places? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And do you see anybody else's signature on that document? 5 A. Yes. Mr. Schilling also signed it. 6 Q. Do you know his signature? 7 A. I would say this is his signature, yes. 8 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the government offers 9 Exhibit 906 into evidence. 10 MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 906 12 received in evidence. 13 (Government's Exhibit 906 received in evidence) 14 MR. DEMBER: May I display it for the jury, your 15 Honor. 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 BY MR. DEMBER: 18 Q. Ms. Stewart, this is an attorney affirmation, is that 19 correct? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. For Mr. Clark? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And I'm not going to ask you to read it, but let me point 24 your -- let me just read the first couple of lines after 25 Mr. Clark. It indicates, Ramsey Clark, pursuant to 28 U.S.C., SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8143 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Section 1746, hereby affirms under the penalties of perjury the 2 truth of the following: 3 One, I am counsel of record for inmate Omar Abdel 4 Rahman -- then there's a USMS number, I'll skip the number -- 5 and have read the "notification to inmate Omar Abdel Rahman," 6 and there's then that number, of special restrictions 7 authorized by 28 CFR Section 501.3, end quote, dated April 3, 8 1997. 9 So this affirmation apparently refers back to the 10 Special Administrative Measures which we've marked -- which 11 were introduced as LS203, is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And then the rest of the affirmation -- does that look -- 14 rest of the affirmation look familiar to the first ones that 15 you signed as well? 16 A. I believe so, yes. I don't think I added anything. I 17 don't think there was any handwritten portion on the one I 18 signed. 19 Q. And towards the bottom you see Mr. Clark's signature, is 20 that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That's dated April 24, 1997. And then Mr. Clark apparently 23 has added some language that he believed to be necessary 24 apparently to sign the document, is that fair? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8144 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Thank you. Now, Ms. Stewart -- 2 MR. DEMBER: I'm sorry, your Honor. May I just 3 display for the jury Exhibit 3, which is in evidence? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 Q. Ms. Stewart, we talked about Exhibit 3 yesterday. That's 6 the attorney affirmation you signed, and there's the date 7 May 7, '98? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that indicated that the -- this particular affirmation, 10 pointing to the line here, it refers to the May 11, 1998, 11 Special Administrative Measures, is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And let me turn the page. That's the first page of those 14 Special Administrative Measures? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And if I may, let me go to the very last page of the 17 Special Administrative Measures. And this particular version 18 of the SAMs has, does it not, a section that deals with the 19 communication with news media, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that section didn't appear in the 1997 version of the 22 SAMs that you read for us a few minutes ago, is that right? 23 A. No. I think we came to understand that it was inserted 24 after Mr. Clark made that press release, perhaps. 25 Q. Thank you. And we saw from just reviewing the Special SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8145 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Administrative Measures that were sent to you and that you 2 reviewed over the years, that that provision having to do with 3 communicating with the media remained in all the Special 4 Administrative Measures after the one we've just shown in 5 Exhibit 3, is that right? 6 A. Yes. And I think some of Mr. Clark's press releases also 7 continued into the future years as well. 8 Q. I'm sorry. I thought I asked -- 9 A. I said I also believe that some of Mr. Clark's press 10 releases also continued through those years as well. 11 Q. I thought the question was, did that provision in the 12 Special Administrative Measures continue in all subsequent 13 versions of the SAMs? Was that the question I asked? 14 A. It did. Yes. 15 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, I've just handed up to you a number of 18 exhibits. I've given you actually a hard copy of Exhibit 3 19 that we just talked about, and some -- three additional 20 exhibits, is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, just to review very briefly, we just showed again 23 Exhibit 3 -- 24 MR. DEMBER: May I display that again, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8146 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. And that's your -- first page is the affirmation, and 2 that's the one that you signed and dated May 7, 1998, is that 3 correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And we just pointed out that that particular version of the 6 SAMs also had the provision at the very end on page five of 7 that version which dealt with communication with news media, is 8 that correct? 9 A. Yes, it does. 10 MR. DEMBER: Now, may I display for the jury, your 11 Honor, Exhibit 2614. 12 THE COURT: Yes. In evidence? 13 MR. DEMBER: I'm sorry, your Honor. Yes, it is in 14 evidence. 15 THE COURT: OK. 16 BY MR. DEMBER: 17 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, this is a letter that we introduced some 18 time ago that comes from your office, is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And it's a letter from a news organization, well known news 21 organization, CNN, is that right? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. And it's from a -- go to the bottom there. It's from a 24 person named Henry Schuster? 25 A. That's right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8147 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Correct? OK. Now, before -- I believe in the letter it 2 may indicate that before receiving this letter, you had spoken 3 to Mr. Schuster, is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And was that by telephone or in person that you spoke with 6 him? 7 A. By telephone. 8 Q. Did you call him or did he call you? 9 A. He called me. 10 Q. And do you have any sense of when that call came, prior to 11 you getting -- I'm sorry. It indicates that you got it last 12 night. 13 So the letter came the day after you spoke to him, 14 correct? 15 A. I'm not sure the mail works that fast, but it was certainly 16 the day after the -- day before the 18th, yeah. 17 Q. You corrected me, thank you. 18 And before that conversation with Mr. Schuster had you 19 ever spoken to him before? 20 A. As I said yesterday, I spoke with a lot of media during the 21 trial. I'm not sure whether I ever had spoken to him or not 22 before that date, but it's possible I had spoken to him before. 23 Q. At any time, point in time did you ever meet Mr. Schuster 24 in person? 25 A. No, I don't believe so. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8148 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. OK. So you may have spoken to him but you can't be sure? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Do you remember what you spoke about in the telephone 4 conversation that preceded this letter that you received from 5 him? 6 A. Well, I know that he's talking about the Osama bin Laden 7 tape that he had seen, so I assumed that that's what he asked 8 me about. And he asked if it were possible for him to get to 9 see Sheikh Omar. And I explained the problems that existed and 10 the roadblocks that there were. 11 Q. He was asking whether he could see Sheikh Omar? Would you 12 look at the last sentence in the first paragraph there. Does 13 it not read, for the record, he writes to you, I asked the 14 Bureau of Prisons today for permission to interview the Sheikh 15 and was refused. 16 That's the last sentence in the first paragraph. Do 17 you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you remember anything else about your conversation with 20 him before getting this letter? 21 A. I probably said to him, big -- 22 Q. I'm sorry. You're saying "probably." You can't speculate 23 or guess. Do you have a recollection? 24 A. At some point in this discussion over these days, as 25 reflected by the correspondence, I said a big outfit like CNN, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8149 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 it would seem that they might challenge the SAMs and the fact 2 that they're not allowed to interview a person whose opinion 3 they would like to hear, and urged him to check in with his 4 legal department and see whether they would go and do that. 5 But apparently that did not happen. 6 Q. You testified last week on your direct testimony that you 7 sort of essentially invited them to file a lawsuit? 8 A. Yes, hopefully. 9 Q. Did you say to him, maybe you should file a lawsuit? 10 A. Oh, yeah, definitely. 11 Q. And did he get back to you on that particular point? 12 A. Well, they never did. I don't know whether he called me 13 and said, we're not filing a lawsuit, but I don't believe 14 that -- there was no lawsuit filed. 15 Q. Well, did anybody from CNN, Mr. Schuster or anybody else, 16 tell you they weren't going to file a lawsuit? 17 A. I don't think so. 18 Q. So you were not aware of them filing a lawsuit? 19 A. I think I would have known but I was not aware of them not 20 filing a lawsuit. 21 Q. Let me just look at -- briefly read the letter. It says, 22 thank you for taking the time to talk with me last night. I am 23 sending along the tape of our segment on Osama bin Laden that 24 aired on NewsStand last week. 25 Did you ever get a tape from him? Did it come with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8150 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 this letter? 2 A. I have no recollection, but the letter recites it, and I 3 have no reason to doubt that the letter was telling the truth. 4 Q. And apparently that's some sort of story that CNN did on 5 Osama bin Laden, apparently? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And next it says, we talked about -- I'm sorry. 8 As we talked about last night, there are several 9 issues arising out of that report which we wish to raise with 10 your client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. These include the issue 11 of whether he feels that his sons are in any danger from the US 12 government since they are now with bin Laden. Of course, we 13 are also interested in the Sheikh's opinion of bin Laden and 14 whether he has met Mr. Bin Laden. For the record, I asked the 15 Bureau of Prisons today for permission to interview the Sheikh 16 and was refused. 17 You raised the issue of the names of the Sheikh's two 18 oldest sons. Any insight you can provide on this will be most 19 appreciated. And you can imagine that we are interested in 20 hearing more from the Sheikh about his will. 21 Had you seen the Sheikh's will? 22 A. Well, it was -- I think it was reported in the media back 23 in April of '97. So that much I knew about it, yes. I don't 24 know whether I had any hard copy of it, but -- at that time, 25 but I certainly knew about it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8151 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. OK. Last he says, I look forward to speaking with you 2 after you have had a chance to review the report. We are 3 committed to fair and balanced reporting. As part of that, it 4 is important we are able to reflect what the Sheikh himself may 5 have to say. I hope that we are able to do so. 6 And then it's signed by Mr. Schuster. 7 And at the end, PS, it goes, would you be comfortable 8 sharing the agreement you were asked to sign by the Bureau of 9 Prisons that limits what you are allowed to say? I will be 10 most interested in reading that. 11 Is it your understanding he was referring to the SAMs? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And was he, as far as you understood, referring to the SAMs 14 that were in effect at the time? 15 A. Yes, I'm assuming so. 16 Q. And did you send him a copy of the SAMs? 17 A. Yes, I think I did. 18 Q. And that's -- if I may just display it again, that's the 19 SAMs that was part of Government Exhibit 3; that would be the 20 May 11, '98, SAMs? 21 A. I know they changed every four months. I mean, there's -- 22 that's the regulation, provides that the SAMs every four months 23 or -- I'm pretty sure it's 120 days. So it was either these or 24 ones that were remarkably similar to him that I provided. 25 Q. Well, Ms. Stewart, you just said the SAMs change every four SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8152 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 months. Isn't it true that any requirements -- the only 2 requirement about having anything to do with four months is 3 that a person who is subjected to the SAMs has to be re -- they 4 have to be renewed and he has to be notified every four months? 5 Isn't that the regulation? 6 A. That's what I meant. 7 Q. OK. There is nothing in that regulation that requires the 8 government to provide his attorney with a version of the SAMs 9 every four months, is there? 10 A. It was always my understanding that we also had to affirm 11 every four months that they were received by us. In other 12 words, it began a new cycle, so -- 13 Q. I'm sorry. The question was: Are you aware of whether or 14 not the regulations required that his attorneys be given copies 15 or versions of the SAMs every four months? 16 A. I'm not aware that the regulations required it, but it 17 seems to me that's what the practice was. 18 Q. In fact, the regulation actually doesn't even require that 19 an attorney sign an affirmation, does it? 20 A. No, it doesn't. 21 Q. And, in fact, if there is -- by the way, when you signed 22 the various affirmations, is there an expiration date in the 23 affirmations? 24 A. No, there's no expiration date. 25 Q. And as you indicated before when you signed an affirmation, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8153 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 you're taking -- I think you indicated this yesterday and 2 before -- you take an oath or a promise to abide by that, 3 correct, by that version of the SAMs? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And there's no limitation on how long that promise lasts, 6 does it? 7 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. 8 MR. DEMBER: I'm asking about the document, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: Well -- 11 MR. DEMBER: I'm sorry? 12 THE COURT: Rephrase. 13 MR. TIGAR: Objection. Assuming a fact not in 14 evidence. 15 BY MR. DEMBER: 16 Q. Well, Ms. Stewart, why don't we look at Exhibit 3, OK. 17 That's, I believe, the -- do you have that before you? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. OK. To the best of your recollection, is that the first 20 attorney affirmation you ever signed? 21 A. No. I think I must have signed one earlier, just as 22 Mr. Clark did. 23 Q. Well, are you saying you think you signed one simply 24 because Mr. Clark signed one? 25 A. Well, we were all counsel. We all got calls. We all got SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8154 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 visits, so if he signed one, then I must have signed one. 2 That's my assumption. 3 Q. You're assuming that. You don't know that for a fact, do 4 you? 5 A. I don't know it for a fact, but I'm -- I thought you just 6 asked me about the one that I signed earlier. 7 Q. I think the procedure is I ask the questions and you have 8 to answer them. 9 MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Stop. Stop. 11 MR. DEMBER: I apologize, your Honor. 12 I'm sorry, Ms. Stewart. I apologize to you, too. I 13 didn't mean it. 14 THE COURT: It's -- hold on, hold on, hold on. 15 Question, answer, question. 16 Go ahead. 17 BY MR. DEMBER: 18 Q. You got Exhibit 3 before you, Ms. Stewart? 19 A. I do. 20 Q. OK. All I'm asking you is in the attorney affirmation that 21 you signed on that day, that affirmation you have before you? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. The first page of Exhibit 3? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Is there anything in the affirmation that indicates SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8155 4b4esat1 Stewart - cross 1 that that affirmation and the promise that you made in the 2 affirmation will expire at any point in time? 3 A. No, there's nothing in the affirmation. There's nothing in 4 the SAMs, but I think -- in practice, and as I've said earlier, 5 this was -- this was not the most consistent practice either by 6 the Southern District of New York, who supplied us with these, 7 or our own practice indeed. But my understanding at least was 8 that when he got the new SAM, we got the new affirmation. 9 Now, if you're saying to me that one affirmation would 10 suffice over a long period of time, I was not aware of that. I 11 assumed that it changed when the SAMs were reread to him in 12 English on each of those occasions. So, I'm learning something 13 new here, if you're telling me that. But it does not have an 14 expiration date. That is true. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8156 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 BY MR. DEMBER:: 2 Q. That was your -- you just described for us what your 3 understanding of the procedure was? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, by the way, before the trial started, at some point 6 obviously you knew your office had been searched, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And certain documents were seized? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And certainly you reviewed and saw -- did you review all 11 the documents that were seized? 12 A. I'm not sure I reviewed them all but I looked at a great 13 many of them; yes. 14 Q. Did you see, in any of those documents, an attorney 15 affirmation that was dated as Exhibit 900 is, in 1997? 16 A. I can only say that in going through the documents, the 17 inadequacies of our filing system were very obvious and I don't 18 think we saved all of these documents. I'm not sure we made 19 copies of these documents when we sent them back. It was 20 enough for us that we were complying. It was -- if it wasn't 21 just stick it in the envelope and mail it back to them, as you 22 can see, the one -- the all important one, the one for the May 23 19th visit was mailed back apparently after the visit was 24 concluded. 25 So, as I say it was not, I would say, number one on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8157 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 our radar screen certainly, as far as office practice or filing 2 was concerned. 3 Q. Did you notice in any of the documents seized by, during 4 the search or from any other records you have in your office, 5 an attorney affirmation signed and dated in 1997? 6 A. No. But Mr. Dember, I have to assume that I did because I 7 know I received phone calls. And if I received phone calls, it 8 would have been under the SAMs and I would have had to have 9 signed it. 10 Now, I never found the document. Apparently you never 11 found the document. Your office didn't find the document -- or 12 the office of the Southern District never found the document 13 either. But it is inconceivable to me that would I not have 14 signed it if Ramsey had signed it. 15 Q. How many calls do you recall -- did you make any visits in 16 1997 to Sheikh Omar? 17 A. No, I think my visit was after he was at Rochester. 18 Q. How many calls did you have in 1997 with him? 19 A. I have no idea. They were twice weekly though, so I think 20 I must have received a goodly number of them. 21 MR. DEMBER: Now, may I display Exhibit 2610, your 22 Honor, in evidence? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 Q. Ms. Stewart, this is your letter dated November 20th to 25 Mr. Schuster, is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8158 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. That's in response to his letter, is that right? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. And you said to him: I received the tape -- I guess you 5 must have received the tape, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. But due to my usual hectic schedule I probably will not get 8 to watch it until weekend. We had discussed the issue of your 9 directly communicating with the Sheikh and both Ramsey Clarke 10 and myself would appreciate if you can detail the questions 11 that you want him to address. 12 Is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Ms. Stewart, do you remember dictating this letter? 15 A. It's possible. I see it is my signature stamp, not my real 16 signature on it. 17 Q. And you wouldn't spell Mr. Clark's last name that way 18 normally, would you? 19 A. No. I don't leave words out either, but. 20 Q. The last paragraph you say: I enclose the copy of the 21 restrictions -- that's the SAMs, right? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. -- under which we are forced to operate. We are, however, 24 considering the options. 25 Did you mean by that you were considering a lawsuit? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8159 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. I will be in touch with you Monday. There will be another 3 call with the Sheikh on Friday, November 27. 4 And then it is: Sincerely. And apparently your 5 signature stamp. 6 MR. DEMBER: Then may I display Exhibit number 2639, 7 in evidence, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Q. Apparently, Ms. Stewart, in response to your November 20th, 10 1998 letter is a letter that was sent back to you, is that 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And this was apparently faxed to you? From the top line 14 there it looks like a fax line? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And it is dated November 24th. And Mr. Schuster apparently 17 has listed the questions he has for the Sheikh, is that right? 18 A. Right. 19 You know it is only the first page, I don't know what 20 happened to the other two pages. But apparently maybe it was a 21 cover sheet too, I'm not -- but this does say page 1 of 3, so 22 apparently the second page is lost of his letter. 23 But it does detail questions he was interested in 24 asking. 25 Q. Now, did you ask Abdel Rahman any of those questions? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8160 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you ever ask him any of those questions? On behalf of 3 CNN? 4 A. Never asked him any questions on behalf of CNN. No. 5 Q. Did you have any communications with Mr. Schuster after he 6 had sent the letter, which is Exhibit 2639, on November 24th, 7 1998? Do you remember having any other conversations with him? 8 A. My best recollection is that he called my office sometime 9 within this time frame and we told him that we couldn't go 10 ahead with whatever he wanted to hear or question about. And 11 he urged us to, urged me to please do it. And I respectfully 12 declined to do it. 13 That's my best recollection of what happened out of 14 this. 15 Q. You said that was around the time within a few days of 16 getting this last letter, as best you recall? 17 A. As best I know the media is usually very pushy about time, 18 so I assumed that I -- pretty sure it was within a few days. 19 Q. Because it is a news agency; when you say they're pushy 20 about time, is that because they're a news agency? 21 A. Yes, because it is all timely and a week later nobody is 22 interested. 23 Q. Do you remember having any other dealings with Mr. Schuster 24 after the series of phone calls and letters regarding your 25 client, Sheikh Abdel Rahman? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8161 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. I don't recall any but that does not necessarily mean that 2 there weren't some. 3 As I say, I deal with a lot of media. 4 Q. Do you remember ever discussing with your client, Abdel 5 Rahman, the fact that CNN was interested in asking those 6 questions and discussing them with him? 7 A. I may have mentioned it on a visit or even over the 8 telephone, that CNN had been interested in discussing this. I 9 do not recall. 10 Q. Did you get into any of the details and questions with him 11 that Mr. Schuster had asked you to inquire about? 12 A. Not that I recall. 13 Q. Do you remember having any dealings with CNN at all after 14 November of 1998 with respect to anybody, any client, or 15 yourself? 16 A. I see at the very bottom that the, that he mentioned 17 another client that I had that had been subpoenaed to a grand 18 jury here in New York. I don't know whether there was any 19 followup on that. 20 If you see at the very bottom of 2639 he mentioned -- 21 Q. I'm sorry, that's Mr. Khalid Ibrahim? 22 A. Yes; who was subpoenaed to a grand jury from Texas in 23 connection with a different matter. 24 Q. And you represented him on that? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8162 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Thank you. 2 May I approach the witness, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 Q. Ms. Stewart, I'm going to hand up to you some exhibits that 5 are in evidence now. They are Government Exhibit 305, 6 Government Exhibit 306, and Government Exhibit 2415-6T. 7 Now, Ms. Stewart, you made a visit to the federal 8 medical center in Rochester, Minnesota, to see your client 9 Abdel Rahman in March of 1999, is that right? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And you went there with Mr. Yousry, which was your normal 12 practice? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. Did you go there with Mr. Yousry? 15 A. I see my counsel standing, I -- 16 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this might be a 17 convenient time for us to take a mid-morning break. 18 Please, ladies and gentlemen, please follow my 19 instructions. Please don't talk about this case at all. 20 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all 21 of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law, and you have 22 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 23 We will break for about 10 minutes. Have a good 24 break, see you shortly. 25 All rise, please. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8163 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 (Continued on next page) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8164 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I have an application, should 3 I do it after or now? 4 THE COURT: Ms. Stewart, may step down. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Judge. 6 (Witness steps down) 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, our application is that the 8 Court give a corrective instruction to the jury. 9 Government counsel spent a great deal of time 10 interrogating Ms. Stewart about LS-203, which is the SAM dated 11 April 3rd, 1997. He then pointed out repeatedly that that SAM 12 contains no restriction on newspaper content. 13 He then showed the witness Government Exhibit 22, 14 which is a newspaper article dated Tuesday, August 12th, 1997 15 about the statement by Ramsey Clark. 16 The April 3rd, 1997 SAM was no longer in effect on August 12th, 17 1997. SAMs expire after 120 days. 18 Government counsel then continued -- and he didn't put in the 19 SAM, I don't know what the SAM says that was in effect at the 20 time of Mr. Clark's statement. I have no idea. 21 He then repeatedly asked the witness whether if SHE once took 22 an oath about SAMs was there any expiration, suggesting that 23 there was none. Whereas Government Exhibit 3, in evidence, at 24 all SAMs affirmations, have the lawyer agreed to abide by a SAM 25 dated of a particular date and consisting of five pages. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8165 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 So, the affirmations always relate to SAMs and SAMs only are in 2 existence for 120 days. 3 Now, a misleading impression has been created with the jury 4 about this matter. I suppose we could do it on redirect, your 5 Honor, but there is additional part. 6 Government counsel spends a lot of time saying that, or 7 suggesting to this jury, that Mr. Clark didn't violate the 8 SAMs. Well, 3516Q says, at page 3: The secret document that's 9 not in evidence, noble violation of the SAMs did not last long, 10 however. 11 So Pat Fitzgerald is on record saying that he did violate the 12 SAMs but in a document that, for a lot of reasons, your Honor, 13 isn't in evidence. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 Do you want to respond, Mr. Dember? 16 MR. DEMBER: I really don't think I need to respond, 17 your Honor but I will, I guess. 18 The only versions of the SAMs -- Mr. Tigar mistakes 19 the fact that the regulations require an inmate to be notified 20 every 120 days and the SAM is to be renewed. That's different 21 than what the content of the SAMs is. 22 The content of the SAMs was back then is exactly what 23 it was in the April 1997 version that's been offered that he 24 offered -- that the defense offered into evidence. We didn't 25 introduce it into evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8166 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 The next SAMs available was published and issued in 2 '98 and those are the ones that Ms. Stewart got. It's all fine 3 and good that there is a regulation out there and to the 4 extent -- but as far as we know, none existed. 5 And the fact that that version is dated a certain date 6 and Abdel Rahman would have had to have been notified after 120 7 days that the SAMs were still in effect and what they were 8 doesn't change the fact that that's the version that's in 9 effect. 10 That's Ms. Stewart's understanding. All of this goes 11 to her understanding and her knowledge, your Honor. And if her 12 knowledge and understanding is different, then she can testify 13 that way. But we haven't alleged -- I am just asking 14 questions, your Honor. She is giving the answers and that's 15 what Mr. Tigar does as well, and we are simply asking 16 questions. 17 Ms. Stewart is not shy about volunteering information 18 that is not responsive to questions that I ask. And certainly 19 I could try to interrupt her every time but I made a decision 20 on how to approach this. 21 THE COURT: All right. There is no need for any 22 curative instruction now. If the defendant believes that there 23 are other things to be brought out, the defendant can take it 24 up on redirect. 25 See you shortly. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8167 4B45SAT2 Stewart - cross 1 (Recess) 2 (Pages 8168-8169 SEALED by order of the Court) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8170 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 And Ms. Stewart will resume the stand and Mr. Fletcher 4 will bring in the jury. 5 (Witness retakes the stand) 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 8 Ms. Stewart is on the stand. 9 Mr. Fletcher? 10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Ms. Stewart, you are reminded you 11 are still under oath. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Dember, you may proceed. 14 MR. DEMBER: Thank you, your Honor. 15 BY MR. DEMBER: 16 Q. Ms. Stewart, when we were breaking I was asking you initial 17 questions about visiting your client, Abdel Rahman, at the 18 Federal Medical Center in Rochester, Minnesota, is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you visited him in early March of 1999, is that right? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. And Mr. Yousry came with you for the visit, is that 23 correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And Mr. Yousry came with you for each of your visits with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8171 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Abdel Rahman, did he not? 2 A. Yes. He was the only approved interpreter. 3 Q. And the visit actually took place on March 1st and March 4 2nd, is that right? 5 A. That's right. 6 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I just display for the 7 jury -- I think Ms. Stewart has a copy -- of Exhibit 305? May 8 I display it? In evidence? 9 THE COURT: Yes. But would you mention whether it is 10 Government Exhibit or LS Exhibit. 11 MR. DEMBER: It is Government Exhibit. 12 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 305, in evidence. All 13 right. 14 BY MR. DEMBER:: 15 Q. Ms. Stewart, this is a form that you filled out, is that 16 right? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. This is the kind of form you had to fill out each time you 19 visited your client, it is sort of a standard form, Bureau of 20 Prisons form? 21 A. Yes. It is used in every federal facility I have ever 22 entered. Same form. 23 Q. And indicates on March 1st of '99 you were there to visit 24 your client, Omar, Ali Abdel Rahman; and they assure that you 25 are not bringing in any kind of contraband, is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8172 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. That's the middle section here, to ask you to make sure you 3 are not bringing in anything that the prison rules would 4 prevent you from bringing in, correct? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And that's just -- and below that you have your name and 7 address and you signed it as well, is that correct? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. And they also had you sign a different form, did they not? 10 Do you see the second page of the exhibit? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. It is a simple, another form just indicating you are an 13 attorney, is that right? 14 A. Yes. It goes on, too. 15 Q. I'm sorry? 16 A. It goes on to say something about tape recording. I don't 17 know what that was in reference to, but. 18 Q. Sometimes -- have you ever brought a tape recorder into 19 prison to record a conversation with your client? 20 A. No. I have brought them in to have clients listen to tapes 21 sometimes. But usually it is provided by the prison. 22 Q. Sometimes you bring in tapes or a tape recorder so you can 23 review recordings with a client? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. That's a common practice? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8173 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. Yes. Not common, but it happens. 2 Q. It happens. 3 Do you recall in one of either the May 2000 visit you 4 had with your client, or maybe July 2001, having a brief 5 conversation with Mr. Yousry where you made some reference to 6 signing a different type of form? 7 Do you remember that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you recall if this was the type of form he apparently 10 may have been referring to, in your understanding? 11 A. I really don't have any recollection of what that other 12 form might have been, but this could have been it. This seems 13 to be particular to Rochester. 14 Q. And Mr. Yousry also had to fill out the same form that we 15 showed on the first page of this exhibit, is that right? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. And, again, indicating he was not bringing in any kind of 18 contraband, is that right? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. And when I say contraband, there is specific items listed 21 here in the middle of the page and those are items that the 22 Bureau of Prisons says you can't bring in, correct? 23 A. I used to usually say I only have this sword of justice 24 with me. 25 Q. And below that you see Mr. Yousry's name and his signature SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8174 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 as well, correct? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And by the way, there was, this was a two-day visit, is 4 that right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And the second day was March 2nd, is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When you would, Mr. Yousry joined you in visiting your 9 client? 10 A. Would you say that again? I'm sorry, Mr. Dember. 11 MR. DEMBER: I apologize. 12 THE COURT: Just keep your voice up. Thank you. 13 MR. DEMBER: Sure. 14 Q. You and Mr. Yousry visited your client the second day which 15 was March 2nd, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. It was a two-day visit? 18 A. It was a two-day visit. 19 Q. Now, before you traveled to Rochester for that two-day 20 visit, did you have any meetings with Mr. Sattar or Mr. Yousry 21 to, or anybody else, to discuss what you would be doing during 22 the course of that visit? 23 A. My best recollection is I probably did meet with 24 Mr. Sattar. I couldn't tell you where, when or how that 25 meeting took place, but we usually did have a meeting to get SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8175 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 the latest from him with regard to his correspondence or 2 speaking with people in Egypt. 3 And as I explained in my direct, Mr. Yousry and I 4 would go over all the materials we were bringing with us, 5 usually on our way out there, and that would include newspapers 6 and correspondence with people and legal matters. Whatever it 7 might be. 8 Q. I think you are jumping ahead of me though. 9 A. I'm sorry. 10 Q. Just in terms of -- I guess I am asking whether was it your 11 usual practice to have a meeting with Mr. Sattar, perhaps with 12 Mr. Yousry, before you left on your trip? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. My question is, do you have a clear recollection, as you 15 sit here today, that in fact such a meeting took place before 16 the March 1999 visit? 17 A. No, I have no clear recollection of a meeting taking place. 18 Q. Your testimony is that that was sort of a standard 19 procedure? 20 A. That was the standard procedure. 21 Q. And during those kinds of meetings would Mr. Sattar, or 22 anyone else, provide you with letters or correspondence, or 23 newspapers, to bring and read to your client, Abdel Rahman? 24 A. Usually he did, yes. 25 Q. You say "he." Is that Mr. Sattar? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8176 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. Mr. Sattar, yes. 2 Q. Was he the person that normally did that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And when he gave you messages or correspondence or letters, 5 were they always written in Arabic or some in Arabic and some 6 in English? What's your recollection? 7 A. I would say the vast majority were in Arabic. There were 8 sometimes English -- Arabic newspapers that publish in English. 9 I recall some articles from the New York Times. But 10 the majority of the materials were in Arabic. 11 Q. Okay. I was just focusing on letters or correspondence or 12 messages, that sort of thing. Not newspapers. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Those were normally in Arabic? 15 A. Yes, but I don't agree with messages, but -- the 16 correspondence. 17 Q. Correspondence, letters, that sort of thing. 18 Well, do you know if any of those correspondence or 19 letters had messages in them? 20 A. In the way in which "message" is usually used as we 21 discussed yesterday, there weren't messages, as such. 22 Nothing -- inquiries maybe? Yes. Questions? Observations. 23 But messages, I just don't characterize them as that, I don't 24 think. 25 Q. Well, what does messages mean to you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8177 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. Well, as I said, I think in the context in which it has 2 been used in connection with this case, it means something done 3 in a secretive manner and a response in a secretive manner that 4 conveys, perhaps, information that is not exactly above-board 5 somehow. 6 Q. Have you ever seen, in any version of the Special 7 Administrative Measures or in any of the attorney affirmations 8 that you were sent and signed or didn't sign, the phrase 9 "secret messages" or "secret information" or anything like 10 that? The word "secret"? 11 A. No. But I certainly have seen it repeated pretty often in 12 the press, even by as great a person such as John Ashcroft 13 said, secret messages. 14 So, I'm a little sensitive to that since that's what 15 this prosecution, he characterized it as. 16 Q. I think I asked you about the SAMs that you got and the 17 affirmations that you got, did you see the word secret messages 18 or secret information anywhere in any of those documents at one 19 time? 20 A. No, it's not in the SAMs. 21 Q. Now, during your meeting that you had with Mr. Sattar 22 before the March 1999 visit, do you remember if he discussed 23 with you any of the letters or correspondence he was giving you 24 to bring to your client? 25 A. My recollection -- and once again this is based on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8178 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 standard operating procedure that we had -- was he would 2 probably make maybe a one-line reference to what this material 3 was and that I would remember and relate to Mr. Yousry the 4 following morning when he would translate the entire document, 5 then a decision would be made about whether or not that was 6 going to be brought to the Sheikh's attention or it was not 7 going to be brought to the Sheikh's attention. 8 Q. Is it your belief that Mr. Yousry wasn't with you at the 9 time that you met with Mr. Sattar before this visit? 10 A. Sometimes he was and sometimes he wasn't. 11 As I said, I have no clear recollection. We would 12 sometimes meet in a restaurant. It was usually a couple of 13 days in advance and he may or may not have been there. I 14 really don't recall. 15 Q. And would there typically be anybody else at the meeting? 16 A. Sometimes my husband Ralph would come with us and sometimes 17 maybe this was not a period of time when Nasser Ahmed was out 18 of jail, but before he went to jail I think he may have gone to 19 some of these pre-visit meetings. But I don't recall him being 20 present later on. 21 Q. Would they typically be like the night before, the day 22 before you would actually go on your trip? 23 A. Yeah. But I think there was a tape where we are called and 24 we are at my house, I think Mrs. Sattar calls with a well 25 wisher. And that tape was introduced by the government. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8179 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Now, did Mr. Sattar, before this particular visit, tell you 2 that he had some kind of letter or correspondence for Abdel 3 Rahman in which a person or persons were seeking Abdel Rahman's 4 advice or input as to whether to form a political party, 5 whether the Islamic group should form a political party in 6 Egypt? 7 A. I don't recall that but I know it was an ongoing subject of 8 discussion between, you know, seeking the Sheikh's position on 9 that particular -- it was an ongoing on the telephones and it 10 was also ongoing in visits. 11 So it may well have been discussed at that time. 12 Q. When you say it is an ongoing discussion that you are aware 13 of, did you have those discussions? 14 A. I may have had one or two. I may have been there when he 15 was discussing it over the phone with Mr. Clark. I'm not sure 16 whether I was actually there but I was aware that this was an 17 ongoing question. 18 Q. Was this something that you were aware of from 19 conversations with Mr. Sattar? 20 A. It may well have been. It also may have been from the 21 newspaper articles where it was, it may have been reported that 22 the Islamic group was considering forming a political party 23 much as the Muslim brotherhood apparently had done in Egypt, 24 and whether this was permissible or correct. And they asked 25 for the Sheikh's -- actually learned advice as to whether, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8180 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 under the Quran, that would be permissible. 2 Q. Now, do you recall whether or not Mr. Sattar told you that 3 he had a letter or correspondence from somebody who was in 4 disagreement with the cease-fire, in seeking Abdel Rahman's 5 support with respect to opposing the cease-fire? 6 A. I don't recall that. 7 I recall that I was, the letters were given, were 8 described to me as from people that were involved in a support 9 network in Egypt, people that were connected to the IG that had 10 questions for him, etc. 11 Q. Now, I believe you told us that your normal procedure was 12 when you meet up or travel or are in the airport or on the 13 plane traveling to Minnesota, you and Mr. Yousry would review 14 the correspondence, the letters and any kind of newspaper 15 articles that were proposed to be presented to your client, 16 Abdel Rahman, is that right? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. And you described that as your sort of usual protocol? 19 A. I'm sorry? 20 Q. Was that your usual protocol? Is that the word you used? 21 A. Protocol, yes. That was actually Mr. Yousry's word, but. 22 Q. Was it also part of your protocol, by the way, to review 23 the SAMs, the Special Administrative Measures as well before a 24 visit? 25 A. No, never. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8181 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Would you tell us -- 2 A. I'm sorry. I never remember reviewing the SAMs. Time was 3 always a constraint. 4 Q. Well, did you ever, during one of these trips, any of these 5 trips to Minnesota, ever provide Mr. Yousry with a copy of the 6 SAMs? 7 A. Not that I recall. We may have talked about them but I 8 don't -- I did not carry a copy of them with me. I may have 9 carried my affirmation with me just in case there was ever an 10 issue about whether I signed it but, no, I don't ever remember 11 bringing them. 12 Q. Did you ever give a copy of the SAMs on the way to 13 Minnesota to Mr. Yousry so he could review it and be prepared 14 to translate it for your client, Abdel Rahman? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Well, do you remember testifying last week about your visit 17 in July 2001? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you remember being asked the following question and 20 giving the following answer? 21 MR. TIGAR: Page? 22 MR. DEMBER: Page 7916: 23 "Q And you had talked to Mr. Yousry before the visit started 24 about the letter from that person that was being addressed to 25 your client?" SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8182 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Again, this is before the July 2001 visit. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. "A We followed our usual manner, our protocol, if you 4 will, that when we were on our way to Minnesota that we went 5 over all the things that were going to be read to him or given 6 to him orally starting with letters and going through newspaper 7 articles. 8 "And I also would tell Mr. Yousry what I was proposing 9 to talk about so if he had to look it over -- I think I gave 10 him a copy of the SAM on the way out so that he could see the 11 verbiage, the language, what he was going to be translating. 12 We went over everything in advance. He translated everything 13 to me in advance and I approved or disapproved of whatever it 14 was we were going to read to him." 15 Do you remember being asked that question by Mr. Tigar 16 and you giving that answer? 17 A. That's the answer I gave. And as you may recall, the 18 reason for that trip was to discuss with the Sheikh that 19 crucial paragraph where we had changed the wording which we 20 cited a great many terrorist acts and assumed my knowledge of 21 them, which I refused to sign. 22 So there was a particular item that I brought along to 23 be translated and discussed with the Sheikh. It was actually 24 even listed on the agenda. 25 But other than that trip, which was specifically SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8183 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 around that, I don't ever remember bringing the SAMs along or 2 translating them. 3 Q. Well, when you said the SAM in your answer last week you 4 meant the actual Special Administrative Measure, did you? 5 A. Yes. I meant at least that had page number 4 on it. 6 Q. Excuse me, the page that had -- I'm sorry. What? 7 A. The page that has that last paragraph which dealt with, I 8 acknowledge that the Sheikh is such and such and so and so. 9 That he has been convicted. 10 Q. Well, Ms. Stewart, aren't you referring to the attorney 11 affirmation? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Well, you didn't say attorney affirmation in your answer, 14 did you? 15 A. I guess we sort of referred to them generically, the whole 16 package. It was certainly the affirmation that we discussed 17 and that's on the tape. 18 Q. Well, Ms. Stewart, isn't it a fact that you did not have 19 the attorney affirmation with you on your, when you traveled to 20 Minnesota in July 2001? 21 A. I think I did have it with me. 22 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 (Pause) 25 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I display for the jury SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8184 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Government Exhibit 2307-1? 2 THE COURT: In evidence, right? 3 MR. DEMBER: I'm sorry? 4 THE COURT: In evidence? 5 MR. DEMBER: In evidence, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 BY MR. DEMBER:: 8 Q. Ms. Stewart, would you look at -- I'm sorry, Ms. Stewart, 9 would it be easier if I gave you a hard copy? 10 A. It's fine this way. 11 Q. Let me give you a hard copy, just to make it easier for 12 you. 13 THE COURT: All right, you may approach. 14 MR. DEMBER: May I approach? I'm sorry, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 BY MR. DEMBER:: 18 Q. Ms. Stewart, the first page of this exhibit is a fax cover 19 sheet, is that right? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. And it is a fax cover sheet and it reads: Facsimile, Lynne 22 F. Stewart, 351 Broadway, Third Floor, New York, New York. And 23 your zip code and phone number, is that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that's where you had your offices back in July in 2001? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8185 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And in fact the fax is dated but it's addressed to you, the 3 fax; is that right? 4 A. Well -- 5 Q. The cover sheet? Does the cover sheet say to Lynne 6 Stewart? 7 A. Yes. I think this was sent by my secretary to Mr. Yousry 8 for me for him to bring along on the trip, if you get my 9 meaning. 10 In other words, I wasn't going to go back to the 11 office. I didn't have a fax at home. He had a fax at home 12 so -- because she also put this note on here: Lynne, I can't 13 find this phone number. That was another client. 14 So it was for me but it was sent to Mr. Yousry. 15 Q. It says from Lynne Stewart, correct? 16 A. That's my fax machine at the office. 17 Q. Okay. And it says on the very top fax line, from: Lynne 18 Stewart. Right? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Fax number 212-625-3939. Is that right? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. That's your fax number? 23 A. That's the fax number. 24 Q. And is there a time on that fax line -- excuse me, I'm 25 sorry. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8186 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Is there a date and time on the fax line? 2 A. There is. 3 Q. And what's the date? 4 A. July 13th, 2001. 12:41 p.m. 5 Q. Do you know where you were on July 13th, 2001 at 12:41 6 p.m.? 7 A. Well, I remember that the visit took place on the 14th, and 8 it was either 14th and the 15th or the 13th and the 14th. 9 Q. Ms. Stewart, weren't you at the Federal Medical Center in 10 Rochester, Minnesota at 12:41 p.m. on July 13th, 2001? Wasn't 11 that the first day of the visit? 12 A. I believe it was, yes. 13 Q. In fact, there is no fax number or fax number listed on the 14 cover sheet indicating where this fax was sent, is there? 15 A. No, there isn't. It may have been sent to me out in 16 Minnesota. I'm not sure. 17 Q. Isn't it a fact that you didn't have it with you when you 18 traveled but you had this fax cover sheet with the attorney 19 affirmation -- that's the second page of the exhibit, is it 20 not? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. This new attorney affirmation which is the two-page one, 23 which you signed on May 7th, 2001? That's the content of the 24 fax, is it not? 25 A. That's -- I didn't hear you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8187 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. What was contained in this fax, besides the cover sheet, 2 was the attorney affirmation? Isn't that right? 3 A. Yes, that is correct. 4 I -- 5 Q. So you couldn't have had it with you when you were 6 traveling to Rochester, Minnesota, because it was faxed to you 7 while you were there, wasn't it? 8 A. I guess so. But it's -- 9 Q. So -- 10 A. -- but we still could have discussed it without having the 11 actual verbiage there. 12 Q. Well, you said in your testimony last week I gave -- I gave 13 him a copy of the SAM. 14 You didn't give him a copy of the attorney affirmation 15 because you didn't have one at the time, did you? 16 A. Well, it would appear that I didn't have the exact document 17 but I certainly would have spoken about it. And if -- as my 18 memory, as I say this is only a couple of years ago but a lot 19 has happened between then and now, it's possible that it was 20 sent to me out there and then we went into the prison with it. 21 I do note this is Mr. Yousry's handwriting in Arabic 22 on the other corner there, so. 23 Q. I'm sorry, that's on the cover sheet, correct? 24 A. That's on the cover sheet. 25 So it's probable that it arrived in Minnesota and we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8188 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 took it in with us the following day, perhaps. 2 Q. Now, going back to the March 1999 visit, you indicated that 3 there was a two-day visit, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And is there anything about the visit that you remember, 6 that you clearly remember, different than any other visit? 7 A. Cold. Very cold. 8 Q. Anything about your conversation or Mr. Yousry's 9 conversation with Abdel Rahman that day, that you recall? 10 A. Nothing that stands out in my mind. 11 I know I made some notes in the notebook on that 12 visit, I believe; that even having reviewed it fairly recently 13 nothing still stands out in my mind. 14 Q. Do you remember if there was any conversation during that 15 meeting about you starting a lawsuit on behalf of Abdel Rahman 16 to challenge the conditions of his confinement and challenge -- 17 to challenge the conditions of his confinement? 18 A. Yes. We always spoke about that. 19 Q. Okay. 20 And was it a normal practice, if you had letters of 21 correspondence, to read those to Abdel Rahman on the first day 22 of a two-day visit and then, on the second day, to get his 23 response, any responses he wanted to make to those letters 24 and/or correspondence? 25 A. That was the usual way it was done, yes. He would sort of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8189 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 pick what point in the visit he wanted to do that but, yes, it 2 was the usual to read them and then get his responses the next 3 day. 4 Q. And do you have any recollection of that being the case 5 during this particular visit? 6 A. I have no recollection. 7 Q. By the way, when you brought the letters and correspondence 8 into the facility during that visit, did you go through that 9 process, describe Special Administrative Measures, clearing 10 them through the Bureau of Prisons officials first? 11 A. No. Because we believed it was part of the attorney-client 12 work that we were doing, part of our obligations to bring these 13 matters to his attention. 14 Q. Well, yesterday you told us that the reason you didn't is 15 because you thought the correspondence was privileged, is that 16 right? 17 A. Well, I think the way it works is it was part of the work 18 and then, as we spoke about it, that that was privileged, those 19 conversations were privileged. 20 Correspondence itself would not be, as such, a 21 technically privileged document. But once it became the 22 subject of our conversations, those conversations, we believed 23 and still believe, were privileged. 24 Q. Well, you said your conversations with your client were 25 privileged but you are saying that the letters themselves now SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8190 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 were not privileged? 2 A. No, I think I meant that they were within the ambit of the 3 work we were doing and the work we are doing and the 4 conversations that enabled us to do that work. That, in my 5 view, is all privileged. 6 Q. Well, Ms. Stewart, I think yesterday I specifically asked 7 you whether or not it was your belief that letters -- I think 8 we referred to specific letters from a woman named Salwah and 9 perhaps Nasser Ahmed, whether those letters themselves fell 10 within the attorney-client privilege? 11 A. I believe they do once they are part of the work, the work 12 is undertaken, the letters are read, the response is given, our 13 response to the response is made. At that point it all comes 14 under the ambit of privileged material. 15 Q. Well, that doesn't happen when you are walking through the 16 entranceway at the Bureau of Prisons, does it? Or the 17 entranceway into the prison? 18 A. What? 19 Q. You say it only becomes privileged once you start 20 discussing those letters with your client, is that right? 21 A. Well, I believe that it's more or less a ruling. At least 22 I have always asked for that. If you want to call it a 23 courtesy then, that the guards do not read over the 24 correspondence that you bring in, that it does fall within a 25 matter that is going to be between lawyer and client and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8191 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 therefore it assumes the privilege, let us say. 2 Q. Well, Ms. Stewart, the Special Administrative Measures 3 specifically talks about correspondence coming in to your 4 client Abdel Rahman and what procedures must be followed. And 5 there is a difference between what is correspondence from his 6 lawyer and correspondence from others. 7 Now, yesterday you grouped, did you not, the 8 correspondence from others as falling within the 9 attorney-client privilege and therefore correspondence that did 10 not have to proceed through -- go through the procedures that 11 the Special Administrative Measures required, isn't that right? 12 Did you say that? 13 A. I guess I'm not making myself clear. 14 When I bring material into the prison to be discussed 15 with my clients that, in my view, under the ethical 16 considerations, regardless of what the SAMs say about whether 17 it's nonmedia, media, attorney-client, whatever, but within the 18 ethical considerations under which we do this work and which 19 guide us, those letters became part of the privileged 20 conversation. And so, as such, were given the aura then of 21 privilege, and certainly they were not being brought in for any 22 other reason but to be discussed with him. 23 Q. Is it your view that anything that anybody writes to your 24 client becomes privileged? 25 A. No. Only when it has some impact on his case or indeed, as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8192 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 I said, I do have a more expansive view, I think that as 2 counselor, for example, when I brought in the letter from his 3 wife, his second wife, it was very personal. 4 But it's necessary that he be kept informed about his 5 ordinary affairs, about things that are happening to him and 6 his family. That is part of our duty as lawyers. And these 7 letters also were selected for that reason. There have been 8 materials that I haven't approved to be brought in. So. 9 Q. I'm sorry. When you say your view is expansive, are you 10 talking about, do you include in that your view of what 11 constitutes the attorney-client privilege? 12 A. Well, the ethics require us to agree with the client, first 13 of all, about what the scope of the representation is. And I, 14 of course, as I said, went to Rutgers Law School, which was 15 client-centered and which took a view that the lawyer becomes, 16 in more ways than one, counselor. 17 So I would say that my view, while legal, because I 18 also understand that, that there is a line -- still in all, was 19 a view that he was entitled to hear anything that could have 20 any impact on his "case" or his condition at that time. 21 Q. My question was, do you have an expansive view of the 22 attorney-client privilege? That's a legal principle, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay, do you have an expansive view of that? 25 A. Of the privilege itself? Yes, within the law I think I do SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8193 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 have a very wide view of what it encompasses. 2 Q. Let's talk about this visit a little bit, okay? 3 Do you remember when on the plane or in an airport or 4 before you spent some time with Abdel Rahman, Mr. Yousry 5 translating a letter or piece of correspondence to you in which 6 somebody was requesting of your client to give his view, or 7 issue a fatwa, as to whether or not the Islamic group should 8 form a political party? 9 A. Fatwa, absolutely don't remember anybody asking him to 10 issue a fatwa, which is a much more serious edict. A 11 requirement, indeed. I don't remember anybody asking him that 12 question on any trip that I took. 13 As I say, it had been pretty regularly discussed but I 14 don't remember whether it was brought up at this particular 15 meeting or not. 16 Q. Well, do you remember in any of the letters or 17 correspondence you brought in for this particular visit any one 18 requesting of your client, Abdel Rahman, that he join that 19 person or persons in no longer supporting the cease-fire? 20 A. No, I don't recall that on this -- in '99 we're talking 21 about? 1999? 22 Q. March 1999. March 1 and 2, 1999. 23 A. There may have been some discussion because we were reading 24 in the newspapers articles about the current status of events 25 in Egypt. That would be my best recollection that may have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8194 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 been raised by him or by me whether or not this was really, was 2 this still in effect and was it having an effect. 3 But I don't recall any correspondence to that end, no. 4 None at all. 5 Q. If there was such correspondence, would that be something 6 you would think you would remember? 7 A. Not necessarily. 8 Q. Well, it was important to you, was it not -- I think you 9 testified last week that your goal, the goals of Abdel Rahman's 10 other lawyers was to get him transferred back to Egypt, did you 11 say that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You thought he would be better off and the country would be 14 better off if he were transferred back to Egypt, correct? 15 A. Absolutely. 16 Q. And I think you told us last week you viewed the fact that 17 he had come out in 1997 in support of a cease-fire as being a 18 positive step on his part because it might assist you in 19 achieving your goal of getting him transferred back to Egypt? 20 A. Let me just be very clear about my goal and the goal of the 21 client. 22 It was the client's desire to go back to Egypt. And 23 whatever would assist his desire to go back to Egypt was of 24 course what we were empowered to do and what we worked for to 25 have happen. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8195 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 And certainly the pronouncements that he made that had 2 to do with supporting the peace initiative and decrying the 3 Luxor, those we viewed as helpful to that end. 4 But this is a man that had a very strong will and a 5 very great sense of righteousness, I guess I can say. And so, 6 it was not only what would feed that particular goal. He also 7 felt he had to keep his integrity. 8 So, while my personal view may have been that the 9 decrying of the peace initiative was not a great idea, still in 10 all if that's what the client wanted to do then that's what 11 would happen. 12 Q. I'm asking your view though. 13 Is it your view -- was it your view back then, 1999, 14 '97 through 1999, that if your client said things like, like in 15 1997, that he supported the cease-fire, that that might assist 16 him in achieving his goal of getting back to Egypt? 17 A. On a personal level as his attorney and as working towards 18 this goal that he -- that he wanted? Yes. It was my 19 professional opinion that that would have helped him achieve 20 this. 21 Q. That would or would not? 22 A. It would. 23 Q. Would. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And, did you maintain that view throughout your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8196 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 representation of him? 2 A. It was my view that things which spoke to violence and 3 things which -- how can I say this -- made him public enemy 4 number one in Egypt would not help him to achieve that goal 5 because it would be necessary for the Egyptian government and 6 the American government to agree to such a move. 7 So that was my view in terms of what would be 8 efficacious. Of course clients have different ideas than their 9 lawyers. We don't control people. 10 Q. You don't control them but you are, part of a lawyer's job 11 is to advise a client, is it not? 12 A. Oh, yes. 13 Q. Part of a lawyer's job is to lay out, as best as one can, 14 all the possible scenarios that might occur if a client takes a 15 certain course of action. Is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That's your duty to do that, isn't it? 18 A. Absolutely. 19 Q. So that the client could make an informed and intelligent 20 decision as to where he or she wants to go or what they want to 21 do? 22 A. Yes. That's optimum. 23 Q. And you don't believe that if a letter came in or a 24 correspondence came in seeking Abdel Rahman's support to end 25 the cease-fire, that that would be something that you would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8197 4B45SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 remember? 2 A. Not necessarily. As you can tell from a lot of this 3 correspondence, it was not always focused completely on what 4 was happening at the moment. But I -- I don't recall it and if 5 it was there, then I can be corrected on that. 6 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, I think you told us whatever 7 correspondence, letters you brought into the prison during the 8 March 1999 visit, you didn't show them to anybody in the pri