9108 4BH5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 17, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9109 4BH5SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, all. Please, be seated. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Good morning, your Honor. Just one issue 4 before we begin, unless the Court has something it wishes to 5 take up. 6 My client asked me if he could be relieved from 7 reading his part between testifying and reading all the 8 tapes -- we intend to read a lot of transcripts today -- 9 whether Mr. Stern could read his part. The government objects 10 to Mr. Stern reading Mr. Yousry's part, and I'm not sure I 11 understand the basis for the objection. 12 THE COURT: The basis is consistency. I've previously 13 ruled in response to the defense objections that those people 14 with speaking parts in the trial, the lawyers, should not read 15 the parts in the transcript that reflect statements by any of 16 the defendants in order to avoid any confusion. 17 It originally arose over the defense objection having 18 prosecutors read statements by the defendants and I -- indeed 19 it was a broader objection than that, it was to prevent the 20 prosecutors from reading any of the transcripts. I didn't go 21 that far but I did think that it was a fair objection to avoid 22 any possible confusion in the jury's mind between the 23 defendants and anyone who would be reading a part of the 24 defendants' prior statements who would otherwise be talking to 25 the jury. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9110 4BH5SAT1 1 It's not as much of a problem when defense counsel 2 reads for the defendant, but it is still subject to the same 3 objection. And so, for fairness and consistency, any of the 4 statements by the defendants should be read only by the 5 defendants or someone who is otherwise not talking to the jury. 6 So, I have no problem at all if Mr. Yousry does not 7 wish to, in the transcripts, read his part, so long as they're 8 not read by someone else who would otherwise be talking to the 9 jury. 10 MR. RUHNKE: I understand, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: And sometimes if you are going to be 12 reading a lot of transcripts, transcripts can get kind of long. 13 And if at any point you wish a stretch break or any other pause 14 in the transcripts, just let me know and I'm perfectly prepared 15 to do that or to call a break. Just let me know. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else? 18 MR. RUHNKE: No. We're ready to proceed. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 If Mr. Yousry could take the stand. 21 (Witness resumes the stand) 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9111 4BH5SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 MR. RUHNKE: May we proceed, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 4 THE JURY: Good morning. 5 THE COURT: It is good to see you all. 6 All right. 7 MR. RUHNKE: May we proceed, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: Hold on, one moment. One moment. 9 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 10 Mr. Fletcher? 11 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 12 you are still under oath. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 14 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, continued. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 17 DIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. RUHNKE: 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, toward the end of yesterday's session we were 20 talking about contact you had had with Agent Kimberly Whittle 21 and also Detective Napoli of the FBI's task force in the wake 22 of the 9/11 attacks on the United States. 23 Do you recall those questions? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. After you were arrested, did there come a time when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9112 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 documents associated with the case were turned over to the 2 defense? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Among the documents turned over, were there documents 5 relating to those post-9/11 interviews? 6 A. Yes, there were. 7 Q. I'm going to ask you just to look at the notebook in front 8 of you containing a series of exhibits marked 1300. Don't read 9 from the exhibits, don't try to discuss the exhibits beyond 10 what they are. 11 So, would you take a moment and look at them? In 12 broad terms, what is contained in the series of exhibits 1300 13 through 1312? 14 A. I believe these are notes of the interviews I conducted 15 with the FBI. 16 Q. And does looking at those memorandum of the interviews that 17 you gave to the FBI during this period of time help you refresh 18 your recollection about approximately how many contacts you had 19 with the agents? Approximately? It may not be exact. 20 A. 12, 15 times, maybe. I don't remember. 21 Q. Does that help you refresh your recollection? 22 A. Probably. 23 Q. And your best recollection is approximately how many 24 interviews with the FBI? 25 A. I thought there were a little bit more than that but that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9113 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 sounds about right; 12, 15 times, maybe. 2 Q. What subject, generally, was Agent Whittle and Detective 3 Napoli inquiring about? Just in very general terms, what did 4 you discuss with them? 5 A. Basically they wanted to make sure that there was nothing 6 wrong going on. 7 Q. Did you discuss the weekly telephone calls with Sheikh 8 Rahman? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. Did you believe that you were doing anything improper, in 11 your own state of mind at that time; that there was anything 12 improper going on with those telephone calls? 13 A. I was confident that the lawyers were not doing anything 14 wrong, I was not doing anything wrong. There was nothing wrong 15 going on. Everything was above board. I was just glad to 16 help, to put this matter to rest. 17 Q. Did you tell the truth, to the best of your ability, to 18 Agent Whittle and Detective Napoli about everything they asked 19 about? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. Sir, yesterday afternoon we also discussed or began to 22 discuss two incidents at the Metropolitan Correctional Center 23 here in New York City, attached to this building, where 24 sessions with Sheikh Rahman were interrupted by prison guards. 25 Do you recall that testimony? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9114 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Would you describe for us, again, the first time that 3 occurred and what you recall happening? 4 A. I recall the first time a guard came in and asked me to 5 leave the cell, the room we were having the meeting in. And I 6 did. I stepped outside. 7 The guard had a conversation with Ms. Stewart and 8 later on they called me back in, I believe a lieutenant or a 9 lieutenant came down or something, and then they allowed me 10 back in. 11 Q. How long was the interview interrupted for? 12 A. More than half an hour. 13 We had to wait for the lieutenant to come in to decide 14 what to do. 15 Q. And, offering this only for your own state of mind, what 16 did Ms. Stewart tell you later on had been the problem? 17 A. Well, she told me that the guards told her that I was 18 having a private conversation with the Sheikh, since I was just 19 talk talking to him for a long time, so he thought I was not 20 the interpreter. 21 Q. And what was actually going on during that interview that 22 appeared to be a private conversation? 23 A. I was asked to read him several things. And just to save 24 time, we developed this mechanism with this kind of technique 25 because lawyers were pressed for time. And I had to do that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9115 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 stuff for them in a much efficient way -- much more efficient 2 way. 3 Q. Was there a second time while the Sheikh was housed at the 4 Metropolitan Correctional Center that a similar thing occurred? 5 A. Yes, I do remember a second time. Yes. 6 Q. Would you describe what happened the second time? 7 A. Well, this time I believe the guard asked me to leave the 8 premises. He asked me to go downstairs. I waited downstairs 9 for about 40, 45 minutes. 10 Q. Let me interrupt you for just a moment. 11 What were you doing at the jail on that date? 12 A. I was going over some material with the client, Sheikh Omar 13 Abdel Rahman, at the time. 14 Q. And who else was in the room? 15 A. And Ms. Lynne Stewart. 16 Q. The guard asked you to remain downstairs? 17 A. I was discussing with the Sheikh, I believe one of the 18 sermons, one of the tapes that we went over to the defense by 19 the government. 20 Q. When you said went downstairs, where were you in this 21 building when the interruption occurred? 22 A. When the interruption occurred it was upstairs in 9 South. 23 Q. That's the ninth floor of the Metropolitan Correctional 24 Center? 25 A. Yes. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9116 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. When you went downstairs, did you have to leave a locked 2 unit at the Metropolitan Correctional Center? 3 A. I waited in the reception area. I thought that Ms. Stewart 4 will come down shortly or somebody will come and tell me what's 5 going on. So, I just waited. 6 Q. How long was that visit interrupted? 7 A. I believe 45 minutes at least I was waiting downstairs. 8 Q. And when you got -- did there come a time when you went 9 back upstairs and you continued the interview? 10 A. Yes. A captain came down, actually -- 11 Q. A captain came down to see you? 12 A. Yes. He asked to see the material that I have, I showed 13 him the tapes, they were all marked U.S. Attorney's office and 14 stuff. And he kind of said, you can go up now. So, I just 15 went back up. 16 Q. We have seen tapes and videotapes and we have heard audio 17 tapes of what can only be described as pretending to interpret 18 a conversation when that was going on; do you understand what I 19 am talking about? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Why did that happen? 22 A. As I said, this technique or this way of doing things 23 developed over a long period of time. It was much more 24 efficient for us to do it this way. When I say "us" I mean me 25 and the lawyer in charge. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9117 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 All the lawyers were adapting that technique, it was 2 not only Ms. Stewart. I did that with Mr. Clark, Mr. Jabara, 3 who spoke Arabic, actually, because it was much easier for me 4 to do that with Mr. Jabara around. 5 And that's the way we did it. 6 Q. Was there a concern ever expressed about that the guards 7 would be overhearing what was being stated? 8 A. Yes, of course. All lawyers are concerned about that. 9 Q. Different lawyers have different levels of concern about 10 being overheard during visits? 11 A. Yes. Of course. 12 Q. Who seemed to be the least concerned? 13 A. The least concerned was Mr. Clark. 14 Usually Mr. Clark would say to the guard, fellows, 15 just move back. Mr. Clark is Mr. Clark, so. 16 Q. And who seemed to be the most concerned? 17 A. The most concerned, the most sensitive person was Ms. Lynne 18 Stewart. 19 MR. RUHNKE: Can we have displayed on the screen 20 Government Exhibit 363A, please? 21 THE COURT: In evidence? Government Exhibit 363A in 22 evidence? 23 MR. RUHNKE: In evidence, yes. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 Q. Do you remember this exhibit, Mr. Yousry? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9118 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Do you remember early in the case someone from Rochester 3 came to testify and said they took a picture of the visit room? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. And do you remember that during the cross-examination a 6 table representing the round table was drawn in and the witness 7 said that's approximately where the table was? 8 Do you remember that? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. Is that true? Is the hand drawn table in the location 11 where it approximately was when you were having visits? 12 A. Yes. About right. 13 Q. And where did you sit during the visits? 14 A. I would be sitting -- my back would be facing the jury box, 15 so I would be facing the window. 16 Q. I am just going to touch the screen. Where that arrow is 17 shown, who would be sitting there? 18 A. That's me. 19 Q. And just, by description, where did Ms. Stewart generally 20 sit? 21 A. To the left. 22 Q. To the left meaning to the left as you go around the table? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Touching an arrow, would that be approximately where she 25 sat? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9119 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. That is approximately where Ms. Stewart sat, yes. 2 Q. And where did the Sheikh, normally speaking, sit? 3 A. To the right. Very close to the door, actually. They had 4 to move him a little bit sometimes when they opened the door 5 because it used to hit his chair. 6 Q. Touching the screen, is that approximately where the Sheikh 7 sat during the interviews? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And, the window that is shown in this photograph, having 10 sat there, having been there during the interviews, were there 11 ever times when guards or other correction officials or other 12 prison officials would be talking in the corridor outside the 13 interview room? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you have any trouble hearing them? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Were these double-paned windows or sound proofed in any 18 way? 19 A. No, they were not. 20 Q. When you had your visits with Sheikh Rahman at Rochester, 21 first, approximately how many times did you go out to 22 Rochester, if you can recall? 23 A. At least five, I think. Five times. 24 Q. Where would the guards, correctional officers position 25 themselves while the interviews were going on? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9120 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Well, it depends on the place where the interview was 2 taking place -- the meeting was taking place. 3 In this particular incident they would be sitting 4 right outside the window. 5 Q. In this area right in here? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Were there times when guards approached right up to the 8 glass? 9 A. Yes. Sometimes actually they put their face into the 10 glass. 11 Q. Were there times when the guards appeared to be looking at 12 what was on the table? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And was that ever a subject of discussion between you and 15 Ms. Stewart? 16 A. Between me and all the lawyers who participated in meetings 17 in these particular rooms, yeah. 18 Q. And what was the concern that was expressed? 19 A. The concern was the guards might listen to our conversation 20 and our conversation should be confidential and private. And 21 we will try to ask them to either move away or we will do 22 whatever we can to keep our conversation confidential. 23 MR. RUHNKE: Can we see 366A? 24 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 363A? 25 MR. RUHNKE: 366A I asked for, I think. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9121 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: In evidence? 2 MR. RUHNKE: In evidence. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 Q. Now, looking at now, looking at 366A, is that another view 5 of that interview room where you conducted interviews of the 6 Sheikh? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And in terms of the interviews that you saw here on the 9 videotape and the February 19 or 20 visit that we heard on 10 audio tape, is that the room where the visit took place? 11 A. That is the room where the May 19th and May 20th visit took 12 place, which we saw on video. The February 19th visit took 13 place in the same room. And the February 18th visit took place 14 in the same room. But we do not have video of that. 15 Q. Did you ever see, actually, any recording of the February 16 18th or part of the February 18-19, 2000 visit? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you ever seen video of the February 18-19, 2000 visit? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 Q. Looking at this room which seems to be set up like a 21 classroom, if you see the door on the right-hand side of the 22 photograph? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. Was that the door out of the, that conference room? 25 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9122 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. Where did that door lead? 3 A. That was the only door that we were allowed to leave the 4 room through. 5 Q. And if you went out of that door and turned left, do you 6 see the area depicted outside the window? 7 A. If we turned left you have to go all the way around in 8 order to use the bathroom. That's the only reason why we 9 turned left. 10 Q. Where in that photograph -- obviously you can't see a 11 bathroom -- where in that photograph was the bathroom 12 physically situated? 13 A. The bathroom would be in the back of that back wall by the 14 three chairs, I would say. 15 There is one, two, three gray chairs over there, that 16 would be the back of the bathroom. 17 Q. Are you indicating this wall area through here? 18 A. Yes, I am. Yes. 19 Q. And, if you went through that door and you made a right 20 turn, where would you go? 21 A. If you go out the door you make a right turn, then there is 22 a double door, go through that, then you have a variety of 23 options. You can make a right to go to the exit or you can 24 make a left to go to the cafeteria and the vending machines. 25 Q. Did you, during your visits, from time to time, were you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9123 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 ever in that cafeteria you just described? 2 A. Yes, I was. 3 Q. And to your observation, who did that cafeteria appear to 4 be for? 5 A. I believe it is for the staff. 6 Q. And what was in that cafeteria? 7 A. There were a kitchen area, table, chairs, and a few vending 8 machines, coffee machines. Soda. Snacks. 9 Q. During any of your visits, were you and the other attorneys 10 permitted to go to that area to purchase whatever was for sale? 11 A. Yes, we were. 12 Q. And when you went to the cafeteria area or the vending 13 machine, were you permitted to travel by yourself? How did you 14 have to travel? 15 A. No, we always have to be escorted. Somebody has to go with 16 us. 17 Q. At the time you were asked to pretend to translate from 18 time to time, did you believe that you were doing anything that 19 was particularly wrong? 20 A. Stupid, yes. Wrong, no. 21 Q. Did you, your own state of mind, believe that anything that 22 was being discussed during the visit was, in any way, improper, 23 proper? What was your point of view? 24 A. No. I believed as long as a lawyer was in the room and a 25 lawyer was telling me what to do, that was the proper thing to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9124 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 do. I did that with Mr. Clark, Mr. Jabara and Ms. Stewart. 2 Q. Did it ever occur to you that you were committing a fraud 3 on the government? 4 A. Absolutely not. 5 Q. We can take that down from the screen now. Thank you. 6 In terms of speaking with representatives of the media 7 on behalf of Sheikh Rahman, who was it that spoke to the press? 8 Was it the interpreter, the attorneys? Who spoke to the press? 9 A. The attorneys mainly, yes. 10 Q. And did you ever act as a representative or spokesperson 11 for Sheikh Rahman with the press? 12 A. Never did. 13 Q. Are you aware that other people associated with the 14 representation of Sheikh Rahman did speak to the press? 15 A. Yes, I am. 16 Q. And are you aware of who, over the course of time, spoke 17 with the press? 18 A. Over the course of time, Mr. Ramsey Clark, Abdeen Jabara, 19 Ms. Stewart, and Mr. Ahmed Abdel Sattar. 20 Q. Did Mr. Schilling ever act as a spokesperson with the 21 media? 22 A. No. Not to my knowledge, no. 23 Q. In the course of your experience with the lawyers and the 24 representation of Sheikh Rahman, did you come across times when 25 lawyers did speak to the press on behalf of Sheikh Rahman? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9125 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Several times. Many times. 2 Q. And I'm going to display or show you a series of documents 3 starting with 516. 4 Your Honor, without looking at the exhibits, can you 5 pick them up out of your book because your screen is not 6 working yet, correct? 7 A. No, it is not working. It is blank. 8 Q. Would you pick up the exhibit books and see if you can find 9 Exhibit 516? 10 A. 516. 11 Q. Starting with 516? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And looking through the exhibits that begin with 516 14 through 522, generally speaking what is contained in those 15 exhibits? 16 A. These are articles in the Arabic newspaper and in English 17 newspapers about Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. Press releases were 18 done by several lawyers. 19 Q. And did you come across those articles at the time that 20 they were published? Were you aware of them at the time they 21 were published? 22 A. Yes, I was. 23 Q. Did they have an impact on your state of mind regarding 24 whether the attorneys were okay with speaking with the press? 25 A. Sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9126 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm going to offer MY-516 2 through 522 and the corresponding translations: 516T, 519T, 3 520T, 521T and 522T? 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I speak with Mr. Ruhnke 5 for a moment? 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 (Counsel conferring) 8 BY MR. RUHNKE: 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, also contained in that series of documents is 10 an exhibit marked 517; would you look at that, particularly? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Just without describing what is in there, were you aware of 13 this particular statement? 14 A. Yes, I am. 15 Q. And is this also a statement made publicly on behalf of 16 Sheikh Rahman? 17 A. Yes, this statement was. 18 Q. Do you recall that this statement was in your home when it 19 was seized? 20 A. It probably was in my notebooks, yes. 21 Q. And did that also have an impact on your state of mind 22 regarding the ability of the lawyers to -- the propriety of the 23 lawyers in terms of the speaking to the media and other 24 representatives about the Sheikh's case? 25 A. Yes. Sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9127 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: I offer 517 as well. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I voir dire? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 BY MS. BAKER: 5 Q. Mr. Yousry, directing your attention to Exhibit MY-517, 6 that is not a news article, correct? 7 A. 517 is an English document that -- 8 Q. Right. 9 A. -- I did not translate. So, it's a translation of a 10 document that was in Arabic. 11 Q. But my question is -- 12 A. It is not a newspaper article, no. 13 Q. It's in the form of a letter, essentially? Is that 14 correct? 15 A. It is a letter dictated by the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel 16 Rahman, in Arabic, to me, in order to convey to Mr. Ramsey 17 Clark, who was going on a trip to attend an Arab summit meeting 18 to communicate his thoughts. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, my question was: It is in the form of a 20 letter, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And it is dictated in Arabic? 23 A. I said that, yes. 24 Q. You are the person when translated it? 25 A. I'm not sure actually if this is my translation or not, but SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9128 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - voir dire 1 I know that I translated it to Mr. Clark. 2 So, whether this is my translation or not I would have 3 to look it over. 4 Q. Would you look it over, please? 5 A. Sure. 6 Yes, this seems to be mine. It is my translation. 7 Q. And are you the person who typed up this document? 8 A. Yes, I think so. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we have no objection to the 10 exhibit, subject to a limiting instruction, including the 11 instruction about news articles. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MS. BAKER: Just to be clear. The news article 14 instruction obviously applies to all the exhibits that have 15 been offered other than 517. 517 we request an instruction 16 that it is not for the truth but for state of mind. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 Ladies and gentlemen, Exhibits MY-516 through 522 and 19 516T through 522T are admitted in evidence. 20 (Defendant's Exhibits MY-516 - MY-522 received in 21 evidence) 22 (Defendant's Exhibits MY-516T - MY-522T received in 23 evidence) 24 THE COURT: These documents are admitted not for the 25 truth of any of the statements in the documents, any of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9129 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 matters asserted in the documents, but rather for their effect 2 on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind at the time. 3 And as you have heard, some of these exhibits -- in 4 fact as described all of the exhibits with the exception of 5 MY-517 and 517T, are newspaper articles and as I have 6 previously instructed you, newspaper articles contain 7 out-of-court statements by reporters about what happened. 8 Those statements may or may not be accurate and, in turn, may 9 contain even other statements being reported by the reporters, 10 so the articles are not being received for the truth of 11 anything that is said in them but solely with respect to the 12 knowledge, intent and state of mind of Mr. Yousry. 13 All right. 14 MR. RUHNKE: Can we display, please, for the jury, 15 516, in evidence? 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Q. And can we highlight the text portion? Thank you. 18 Mr. Yousry, what is this document? 19 A. This is an article in Al-Hayat newspaper. 20 Q. Can you tell by looking at the Arabic the date of that 21 article? 22 A. I have to look here. I can't see that far. 23 Yes, I can. It's August 9th, 1997. 24 Q. And can we take that down now and can we switch to the 25 Elmo? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9130 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Your Honor, I would like to now read to the jury the 2 translation, which is 516T. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. RUHNKE: We will display it, okay? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. The leader of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya -- I'm sorry. 7 I will start again. This is from Al-Hayat dated 8 August 9, 1997, headline reads: Omar Abdel Rahman Supports the 9 Initiative for Halting Violence in Egypt. It is written by 10 Gamal Kashoggi. 11 The leader of Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya in Egypt, Sheikh 12 Omar Abdel Rahman, has finally announced his support for the 13 initiative to halt violence in his country. Sheikh Abdel 14 Rahman, who is currently detained in the United States of 15 America, disclosed in a statement signed by him (of which 16 Al-Hayat obtained a copy) that he supports the initiative of 17 the "youth who have offered their souls to please God. If they 18 call today for a halt of all violent operations, we must 19 respond positively and accede to their initiative without 20 hesitation." 21 Mr. Ramsey Clark, Omar Abdel Rahman's attorney, said 22 that the Sheikh had informed him, verbatim, "I support the 23 initiative to halt the violence and I ask the others to do the 24 same." Mr. Clark told Al-Hayat that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman 25 had given him this statement in Arabic and English, as well as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9131 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 had asked the attorney to release it to the media. In doing 2 so, he wishes "to clarify his position regarding the 3 initiative" which was launched by the detained leaders of 4 Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in Egypt and supported by local 5 Al-Gama'a chapter. Leaders outside of Egypt, however, had been 6 hesitant in lending their support. It is expected that Sheikh 7 Omar Abdel Rahman's support for the initiative now will put to 8 an end such hesitation as he holds a strong theological 9 influence upon the movement. 10 The Sheikh had been elected the leader of this 11 movement for a certain period of time; he remains one of its 12 more influential scholars and theological advisors to date, 13 especially since the assassination of Egyptian President Anwar 14 Al-Sadat. The Sheikh had permitted members of Al-Gama'a 15 Al-Islamiyya to rise up against the Egyptian authorities, 16 including common soldiers and members of the police department, 17 since the latter were considered accomplices of the regime and 18 therefore bore responsibility. 19 As for the other sources who have disseminated the 20 Sheikh's statement, they are confirming that it has now reached 21 most of the Al-Gama'a leaders outside of Egypt. The statement 22 reads: "They are youth who believe in God, and thusly, God has 23 fortified their piety. In reward for their worship of the God 24 in the heavens and their insistence that they will never 25 worship anyone but him, God has strengthened their hearts. I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9132 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 thank God for such youth who have offered their souls to please 2 God. If they call today for a halt of all violent operations, 3 we must respond positively and accede to their initiative 4 without hesitation. We must follow in their footsteps as the 5 truth is with them. We are fully aware of who our enemy is. 6 Let us unite and attempt to do away with it. God will grant 7 victory to whomever he wishes. God is almighty and God is all 8 loving." Signed Omar Abdel Rahman. 9 The last portion of the statement points to the 10 mediation two years ago regarding the halt of the violence in 11 Egypt. The mediators' logic was that the Israelis were 12 benefitting from all the acts of violence that have occurred -- 13 especially those directed against tourists and Christians. The 14 Israelis were behind them in one form or another. 15 The initiative to halt violence translated into a 16 serious dialogue during the former Egyptian interior minister, 17 General Mohammed Abd al-Alim Moussa's last days in office. The 18 peace initiative had been spearheaded by the late Sheikh 19 Mohammed Al-Ghazzali, in addition to several other scholars and 20 intellectuals; the initiative failed and all talks ended upon 21 the interior minister's dismissal. 22 The initiative to halt violence gained momentum this 23 year through the work of a newspaper of Egyptian lawyers, who 24 facilitated the exchange of opinions between the imprisoned 25 leader of Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya and unincarcerated Muslim SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9133 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 activists and scholars. Their efforts came to fruition last 2 month in the declaration of the initiative. 3 Mr. Clark, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's lawyer, said 4 that he had read about the initiative in the Washington Post 5 and Al-Hayat. Other sources confirm that the Sheikh derived 6 his understanding of the initiative through very limited 7 contact. Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman had been arrested and convicted 8 of inciting acts of violence in the United States. 9 Sheikh Abdel Rahman is an influential voice within 10 this universal movement. He added that "the Sheikh is 11 currently held in solitary confinement; he fasts daily, only 12 breaking his fast with very light meals and consuming a cup of 13 soup to sustain his fast the next day. Moreover, the Sheikh 14 refuses to take his diabetic medication in protest of his harsh 15 daily treatment. He also believes that since his living 16 conditions are intolerable, his health will not be improved by 17 medication." 18 And that concludes the reading of that exhibit. 19 Could we next have displayed Exhibit 517? MY-517? 20 THE COURT: Yes; in evidence. 21 MR. RUHNKE: In evidence. 22 If we can have the text portion of that enlarged. 23 Q. Mr. Yousry, Ms. Baker had asked you a few questions about 24 this document a few minutes earlier. Would you explain the 25 circumstances as to your recollection as to how this document SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9134 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 came into existence and what its purpose was? 2 A. I believe Mr. Clark informed the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel 3 Rahman, that he was invited to attend an Arab summit in Abu 4 Dubai, I believe, in the gulf state. 5 Q. Were you here when Mr. Clark advised Sheikh Omar at that 6 time? 7 A. Yes, I was the only interpreter at that time. 8 Q. What was the discussion that followed? 9 A. They discussed whether or not to take advantage of 10 Mr. Clark being there in the Middle East and whether or not 11 Mr. Clark should take a message from the Sheikh to address the 12 leaders of the Arab world. 13 Q. And, did the Sheikh prepare a message? 14 A. I believe he dictated a message the following week. 15 Q. And to whom did he dictate that message? 16 A. He dictated that message to the kings and the presidents of 17 the Arab world. To me. I'm sorry. 18 Q. The king and the president weren't there? 19 A. No, they were not. 20 Q. To whom did he dictate that letter? 21 A. I took it down. 22 Q. And it was translated into English, is that correct? 23 A. I believe that the letter was several pages long and 24 Mr. Clark asked me to summarize it for him. And I did an oral 25 translation to Mr. Clark and Mr. Clark chose which points that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9135 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 I should translate verbatim. And that's what I did. 2 Q. And is the letter to the kings and princes and brothers 3 from Sheikh Rahman what is depicted now in Exhibit 517? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. If we could display -- let me just put it on the Elmo, if I 6 could have the Elmo back again. 7 I'm going to show you a portion of Exhibit 517, and 8 Exhibit 517 consists of an English language article, is that 9 correct? 10 MS. BAKER: Mr. Ruhnke, I believe you just stated the 11 wrong exhibit number. 12 A. 518. 13 Q. Is that 518, a translation of 518? 14 Do you have 518? 15 A. I do have 518. 16 Q. Do you see the English version that I am displaying on the 17 screen? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What date -- 20 THE COURT: It is helpful when you refer to an Exhibit 21 to refer to it as in evidence, MY-518, in evidence. 22 Q. MY-518, in evidence. 23 Do you see at the top of the printout the date of that 24 article? 25 A. Yes, I do. It is 4-10 February 1999. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9136 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And were you aware of this article, had you seen this 2 article at about the time it was published? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. I'm going to read, your Honor, the contents of Exhibit 518, 5 in evidence. 6 It is headed, Al-Ahram Weekly Online, published in 7 Cairo by Al-Ahram, established in 1875. Al-Ahram weekly, 4-10 8 February 1999, issue number 415. 9 Before I read it, Mr. Yousry, the publication 10 Al-Ahram, what role does that play in Egyptian society? 11 A. Al-Ahram is the semi-official newspaper of the Egyptian 12 government. 13 Q. And the head line reads: Clark Pleads for Jailed Gama'a 14 Leader. By Amira Howeidy. 15 Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney general and lawyer 16 for Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, was in Cairo this week to bring 17 attention to the case of the imprisoned cleric. Clark, who 18 arrived on Sunday, visited Sheikh Abdel Rahman's family in 19 Fayyum and met members of the Egyptian Organization for Human 20 Rights (EOHR) to outline the legal aspects of the case. 21 Abdel Rahman, spiritual leader of the underground 22 Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya, was charged, along with 14 others, with 23 involvement in a plan to blow up the United Nations and two" -- 24 I'm sorry, I will read that again -- "was charged, along with 25 14 others, with involvement in a plan to blow up the United SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9137 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Nations, two New York tunnels and other city targets, and with 2 a plot to assassinate President Hosni Mubarak. In 1993, he was 3 sentenced to life imprisonment. For the last two years, he has 4 been in solitary confinement and is permitted communication 5 only with his lawyer and prison officers. 6 According to Clark, the health of Abdel Rahman, who is 7 blind and diabetic, has deteriorated drastically and he has 8 lost 25 pounds. Clark claimed that the Sheikh is not being 9 given adequate medical care. 10 On Monday, Clark held a news conference at the office 11 of lawyer Muntasir Al-Zayat, the de facto spokesman for the 12 Gama'a. Al-Zayat told reporters that he met Clark last year 13 and agreed to help launch a media campaign to draw attention to 14 the Sheikh's plight. But Clark insisted that his latest visit 15 was aimed as helping the Abdel Rahman's family. 16 At the news conference, Abdel Rahman's son, Abdullah, 17 read out a statement praising his father. "He never preached 18 violence or destruction," said Abdullah. "Rather, he worked 19 for justice. He fears no one but God. This is why governments 20 have rejected him." 21 He continued. "My father is being subjected to the 22 worst type of psychological torture. For more than two years 23 he has been held in solitary confinement. He cannot pray 24 because the floor of his cell is always covered with water. 25 Moreover, he is given food and medicine that he does not want." SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9138 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Abdullah urged reporters to "investigate the charges 2 [against the Sheikh] before labeling him a terrorist." 3 And then the article continues at the bottom: 4 Clark stressed the damaging effects of solitary 5 confinement on the Sheikh's health. "The effect of this 6 protracted imprisonment on the Sheikh's health has been 7 extremely harmful. We have to recognize the total isolation 8 that he's in," he said. "He's the first person" -- continuing 9 on the next page -- "sentenced under the anti-terrorism act of 10 1936 to be placed in total isolation, sees no other prisoners, 11 has no communication with anyone. Because he's blind, he's 12 doubly in prison. He's got nothing to read. He can't hear the 13 Arabic language, so it's a silent, isolated world. I think we 14 need to remember all those things to report accurately on what 15 this case is all about." 16 Clark denied knowledge of any agreement between the 17 U.S. and Egyptian governments to transfer Abdel Rahman's appeal 18 procedures to Cairo. "I do not think that the Egyptian 19 government would receive him here with great joy," he said. 20 Asked about the prospect of Abdel Rahman being 21 released on the ground of ill health, Clark said that the only 22 available information on the Sheikh's condition was from the 23 federal prisons. "He was refused a request to be examined by a 24 doctor of his own choice. So, we can never know if his blood 25 sugar level in these reports is accurate or not," he said. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9139 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 This completes my reading of Exhibit 518, in evidence. 2 Mr. Yousry, the reference to Sheikh Rahman's own 3 personal physician, do you know who Mr. Clark was referring to, 4 of your own knowledge? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. And who was that? 7 A. Dr. Aziza. A-Z-I-Z-A. 8 Q. Is that a man or a woman? 9 A. She is the wife of Mr. Nabil Elmasry, one of the Sheikh's 10 paralegals. 11 Q. Were there other lawyers besides Mr. Clark who spoke on, to 12 the media, about the Sheikh's case? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And who were the other lawyers who spoke to the media about 15 the Sheikh's case? 16 A. Mr. Jabara and Ms. Stewart. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if we could have displayed, 18 if it is available, Exhibit MY-522. Can we have that displayed 19 on the Elmo? It is in evidence, your Honor. 522, in evidence. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 Q. Your Honor, we will do it just on the Elmo and I'm going 22 to -- I will display 522, first, in evidence. 23 Mr. Yousry, can you see 522, in evidence? 24 A. Yes, I can. 25 Q. And from your knowledge of having seen this document SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9140 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 before, do you know what 522, in evidence, represents? 2 A. Yes. I have seen it before. It is an article about Sheikh 3 Omar Abdel Rahman. And in this article two lawyers were 4 interviewed, Mr. Ramsey Clark and Mr. Abdeen Jabara. 5 This is a picture of Mr. Jabara. You can't see his 6 face but I recognize his ears. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, may I read 522T, in evidence? 8 THE COURT: Yes. MY-522T, in evidence. All right. 9 Q. Yes. 10 Exhibit MY-522T, in evidence, is headed BBC 11 Al-Mushahid Assiyasi weekly magazine, June 15 through June 21, 12 1997, volume 3, issue number 66, page 9-[12] and Op-Ed piece. 13 Headline, attorney Abdeen Jabara: We stated in the 14 appeal that the Sheikh is innocent [photo of Abdeen Jabara]. 15 Attorney Abdeen Jabara was born in the State of 16 Michigan in 1940. His father had immigrated to the United 17 States in 1909 from the township of Rashia Al-Wadi in the 18 western Bika'a valley of Lebanon. His mother immigrated to the 19 United States in the same year. Abdeen is Arabic Muslim and 20 one of the founders of the Arab Graduate Alumni Association and 21 a human rights organization. He graduated from the University 22 of Michigan in 1962. He obtained his law degree from Wayne 23 State University in Detroit in 1965. After his graduation he 24 lived for a year in Lebanon and worked for Dr. Saygh in the 25 Center for Palestinian Research. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9141 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Abdeen admits that his command of the Arabic language 2 is weak because he only learned Arabic at the age of 20. He 3 denies that he is a member of the popular front [for the 4 liberation of Palestine]; he considers himself a Lebanese who 5 does not subscribe to any political trend. 6 He served as the president of the [Arab] 7 anti-defamation league from 1986 through 1990. He defended 8 Sirhan Bishara Sirhan and Zyad Abu Ain, both of whom had been 9 expelled from occupied Palestine. He has served as a defense 10 attorney for many other Arab Americans as well. 11 "Q How are you handling Omar Abdel Rahman's case, 12 especially considering his lack of funds? 13 "A We have other cases that cover the office expenses 14 and we do not maintain a fancy office -- that is how we are 15 able to handle the case for free. 16 "Q You met with Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman in prison. 17 Why is the media barred from visiting him? 18 "A In order to keep him in isolation, they put in 19 place new laws as of April 1, 1997, ones which only pertain to 20 Omar Abdel Rahman. They are afraid and thus they are trying to 21 silence him. 22 "Q How are you going to counter the evidence in order 23 to convince the judge to release him?" 24 Page 2 25 "A We have submitted an extensive appeal and are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9142 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 awaiting the reply. We submitted the appeal two months ago and 2 the Court gave the government until June 25 to issue a reply; 3 the appeal case will commence after the U.S. government does 4 so. 5 "Q Arabs are wondering how such a miscarriage of 6 justice can take place in a U.S. court. 7 "A Not everything was unjust. For example, they 8 allowed him an attorney; however he was denied the opportunity 9 to select his own counsel. I was one of the lawyers working 10 with Lynne Stewart. 11 "Q Did you request permission for him to pray with 12 other prisoners [illegible -- page cut off]? 13 "A We requested that he be able to socialize with 14 other prisoners; we submitted a second request a week ago. We 15 are actually asking the Court to order the U.S. Bureau of 16 Prisons to allow him to speak with other prisoners, in addition 17 to letting him perform the Friday prayers with fellow Muslims 18 and obtain religious materials to which he could listen. 19 "Q The prison officials said they do not want him 20 socializing with other prisoners for his own safety and in 21 protection of his life. 22 "A This is a baseless excuse. 23 "Q Don't you think that a prisoner wanting fame might 24 attempt to kill him? 25 "A No. We want him to be able to mingle with other SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9143 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 prisoners. 2 "Q Is it true that he is kept from learning the time 3 for prayers and the direction to Mecca for his prayer? 4 "A He does not have the means to perform them. The 5 Sheikh does not have a watch. A Muslim Sheikh who does not 6 speak Arabic visits him once a month; that's all. What is 7 more, he doesn't have a recorder so that he might tape messages 8 for his family; he is only allowed to speak with them once a 9 month. 10 "Q Is it possible for him to be transferred to an 11 Arab or Muslim country, or even Egypt? 12 "A [illegible-page cut off]" 13 And that's the end of the interview and that completes 14 the reading of Defendant's Exhibit 522, in evidence. 15 Mr. Yousry, are you aware of contacts with the Sheikh 16 by representatives from the Japanese television network, which 17 you testified about? 18 A. Yes, I am. 19 Q. And were questions propounded to the Sheikh by 20 representatives of the media discussed in advance of the 21 questions being proposed? 22 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 Q. Did there come a time when the Sheikh was interviewed by 25 representatives of the Japanese media? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9144 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. I believe he was interviewed once in Rochester, 2 Minnesota -- I'm sorry, in Springfield, Missouri, and that 3 interview was conducted under the supervision of Ms. Stewart. 4 The second time the Japanese TV tried to interview him 5 they were not able to do so. They put some questions to 6 Mr. Clark, I believe. 7 Q. And do you recall recording in your notebook anything 8 regarding the Japanese television interview? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I am going to display for the 11 jury, if I may, from the Yousry notebook at the Bates Number 12 page 0727, the reference. And then I will display the 13 translation of that page. 14 With the Court's permission, they're both in evidence, 15 the whole notebooks are in evidence. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Ladies and gentlemen, I gave a long limiting 18 instruction with respect to the notebooks and of course you 19 have to continue to apply that. 20 Q. Displaying the page marked Yousry notebooks 0727, do you 21 see on the upper left-hand corner -- and of course actually the 22 top portion of the page, certain English writing? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. And what does that state? 25 A. It says approved by Mr. Clark. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9145 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And does it state who it is for? 2 A. Next to it it says, for Japanese public TV. 3 Q. And the rest of the page is in Arabic, is that correct? 4 A. Yes. It's questions and answers. 5 Q. I'm going to display for -- when you say it is questions 6 and answers, what do you mean? 7 A. It is the questions that Mr. Clark approved to ask the 8 Sheikh and the answers that the Sheikh provided for these 9 questions. 10 Q. Do you have an approximate estimate as to when this 11 discussion with the Sheikh took place? 12 A. I do not recall, but I'm sure it is recorded in the 13 notebook someplace. 14 Q. Displaying the English, the corresponding English 15 translation from that page, your Honor, which is also in 16 evidence. 17 Mr. Yousry, does that document that I am displaying 18 now contain, to your knowledge, an accurate translation of 19 notebook page 0727? 20 A. Yes, it does. 21 Q. And, after the English portions approved by Mr. Clark for 22 Japanese public TV there is a listing of what appear to be 23 questions. Question 1 reads: How is your condition now? 24 Question 2 reads: How is your health now? Question 3: Is 25 there any message that you would like to send to your family in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9146 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Egypt or to the people in Egypt? 2 To your knowledge, where did those questions come 3 from? 4 A. They came from Mr. Noguchi I think his last name is. Ed 5 Noguchi, from the Japanese public TV. 6 Q. Is Mr. Noguchi someone you have met and spoken with? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what follows from that, you see an arrow and number 1. 9 Without reading through that what is the -- what is contained 10 at number 1? 11 A. These are the answers, I think. 12 Q. The answers provided by who? 13 A. By the Sheikh, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 14 Q. And who approved these answers to be given to the Japanese 15 public TV? 16 A. Mr. Clark and Mr. Jabara. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could we have a break now? 18 It is about 20 minutes to 11. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 10 minutes. 21 Please remember my continuing instructions, please don't talk 22 about the case at all and remember to keep an open mind. 23 All rise, please. 24 (Jury not present) 25 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry, can step down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9147 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 2 (Witness steps down) 3 THE COURT: May I talk to the lawyers, briefly? 4 (Page 9148 SEALED by order of the Court) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9150 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 (Page 9149 sealed by order of the Court) 2 (In open court; jury present) 3 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 4 Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 6 are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you, sir. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 9 BY MR. RUHNKE: 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, when we were discussing the notebooks yesterday 11 afternoon, we marked into evidence seven separate bound copies 12 marked as MY1000 through 1007CT. Now I want to talk to you a 13 minute about the last volume, the 1007CT. And I'll begin by 14 showing you a folder that's marked for identification 15 Defendants' Exhibit MY1007. 16 MR. RUHNKE: May I approach, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. First of all, by way of foundation, Mr. Yousry, when we 19 received documents in discovery, after you were arrested from 20 the government, were there a series of documents that bore the 21 Bates stamp and heading Yousry notebook? 22 A. Yes, there were. 23 Q. Was there one collection of documents that wasn't 24 technically a notebook? 25 A. I believe so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9151 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And looking at Defendants' Exhibit MY1007, do those appear 2 documents that were headed under that heading part of the 3 Yousry notebook, but were really just a collection of 4 documents? 5 A. It seems so, yes. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the government and I agreed 7 on an oral stipulation that the documents that are reproduced 8 in MY1007CT are copies of what was in the folder now marked 9 MY1007, and that all those documents are still in existence. 10 Some of them have been moved into evidence and thus removed 11 from the folder, which is why everything isn't in the folder at 12 the present time. 13 And with that I would offer 1007. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, no objection, subject to the 16 same limiting instruction previously given for the notebook 17 series. 18 THE COURT: All right. Defense exhibits MY1007 and 19 MY1007CT are received in evidence. 20 (Defendant's Exhibits MY1007 and MY1007CT received in 21 evidence) 22 THE COURT: And this is subject to the same limiting 23 instruction that I gave you with respect to the -- what has 24 been called the Yousry notebooks, MY1000 through MY1006 and 25 MY1000CT through MY1006 CT. And you are to apply that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9152 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 instruction here. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 3 BY MR. RUHNKE: 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you have the notebooks available to you in 5 front of you? 6 A. Yes, they are down here. 7 Q. Would you pick up the notebook marked Defendant's 8 Exhibit MY1007CT in evidence. 9 A. All right. I think I have it, 1007CT. 10 Q. Would you turn to page 1187, which is near the beginning of 11 that file. 12 A. Yes, I have it. 13 Q. And before we discuss that document, just before the break 14 we were discussing the questions propounded to Sheikh Rahman by 15 Japanese TV. Do you remember that discussion? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. Were you able to determine during the break approximately 18 when that session occurred, when the questions were propounded 19 to Sheikh Rahman, when Mr. Clark approved it and when you 20 translated it? 21 A. I believe it took over a couple of months. It started like 22 in January 2000 and the answers were approved in March of 2000, 23 if I'm not mistaken. 24 Q. So it was early in the year 2000? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9153 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Now, turning to the -- page 1187 of the notebook, what is 2 depicted at 1187? 3 A. It's a New York Times article about Sheikh Omar Abdel 4 Rahman. 5 Q. And what is the date that appears on the article? 6 A. There is a handwritten note. It says New York Times, 7 10/22/2000. 8 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, may I display 1187. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Bates number 1187 from -- contained 11 within MY1007CT in evidence. 12 Q. Are you able to see that article, Mr. Yousry? 13 A. Yes, I am. My monitor's working now. 14 Q. Is that the article you were referring to? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with your permission I will 17 read it, because it's very, very difficult to follow. The 18 print is very small. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. RUHNKE: First of all, at the top of the 21 document -- I'm sorry, let me just redisplay it. I apologize. 22 Q. Is there a handwritten legend at the top of the document 23 that's besides the date of the article? 24 A. Yes. This is my handwriting and it says, approved by 25 A. Jabara. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9154 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And what does that mean? 2 A. That means that Mr. Jabara was the person who approved me 3 to read this article to the Sheikh. Since this article is in 4 English, I had to read it first and then translate it to the 5 Sheikh in Arabic. 6 Q. And to your knowledge did you do that? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I would now like to read the 9 article from that page. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. RUHNKE: It's called following up. It contains 12 what appears to be a photograph of Sheikh Rahman and the 13 subheadline, close prison watch for cleric in bombing. 14 When the powerful bomb that rocked the soaring Twin 15 Towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan in February '93 16 turned out to be the work of militant Muslims, Americans were 17 spectacularly shown that their home soil was not immune to 18 lethal reverberations of the Middle East conflicts. 19 Later federal officials said the bombing, which killed 20 six people and injured more than 1,000, was part of a larger 21 terrorist conspiracy that also included plans to bomb the 22 United Nations headquarters and the Lincoln and Holland 23 Tunnels. They said that -- they said the conspiracy's leader 24 was a blind, fiery fundamentalist cleric from Egypt, Sheikh 25 Omar Abdel Rahman, who had emigrated to the United States in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9155 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 1990. 2 In 1995 a jury in federal district court in Manhattan 3 convicted him of seditious conspiracy, rejecting his defense 4 that he had only been continuing his long-time exhortations in 5 America for the Egyptian government's overthrow. He was 6 sentenced to life in prison. 7 Today Mr. Abdel Rahman, 62, is in a federal prison 8 hospital in Rochester, Minnesota, under highly restrictive 9 conditions, one of his lawyers, Abdeen Jabara, said. He said 10 Mr. Abdel Rahman was kept isolated from the other prisoners and 11 permitted to make no prison calls except to his lawyers and one 12 15-minute call a month to his family in Egypt. Mr. Jabara said 13 that only immediate relatives were allowed to visit, and 14 because of the expense, they had come to the United States for 15 this purpose just once, when his client's wife and brother 16 stayed for two weeks last year. 17 He said that Mr. Abdel Rahman, unable to read or write 18 because of his blindness, "listens to a lot of tapes of Koranic 19 exegesis and recitation." A Federal Bureau of Prisons 20 spokeswoman, Tracy Billingsley, said she could not discuss any 21 inmate's confinement details. 22 Mr. Jabara's portrait of his client contrasted sharply 23 with a Reuters news agency report two weeks ago that said an 24 Islamic Group in London reportedly receiving a statement 25 relayed through Mr. Abdel Rahman's "legal advisors" in which he SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9156 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 urged Muslims to "kill Jews everywhere." Mr. Jabara said that 2 the report was "totally ridiculous." He added "it's not true 3 that any legal advisors transmitted such a message." 4 That's the end of the reading of that page from 5 MY1007CT in evidence. 6 Mr. Yousry, turning to the search of your home by 7 agents of the FBI on or about, or on April 9, 2002, do you 8 recall testimony about that? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 MR. RUHNKE: And I would like, with the Court's 11 permission, to display on the Elmo Government Exhibit 2301J, 12 which is in evidence. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 Q. Can you see that photograph, Mr. Yousry? 15 A. Yes, I can. 16 Q. And what is shown in that photograph? 17 A. This is the study, the room where I kept all my books and I 18 used to do all my work in. 19 Q. Zooming in a bit to the chair, can you see what is on the 20 chair in that photograph? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And what is on the chair? 23 A. That seems to be my notebooks, collection of my notebooks. 24 Q. All right. And we talked about that yesterday in your 25 conversation with Agent Whittle. Do you know of your own SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9157 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 knowledge how the notebooks actually physically wound up in 2 that position on your chair? 3 A. No. I know only that I gave them to her. 4 Q. You don't know what she did -- 5 A. I don't know about that, no. 6 Q. Zooming back a little bit in the photograph, what items are 7 in this study? For example, the poster on the left, generally 8 what does that poster contain? 9 A. It's a poster from the New York Times, I believe, and it's 10 a picture of Martin Luther King, and the other side of Charles 11 Manson. 12 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. And was that something that was displayed on your wall, 15 without describing what it was? 16 A. Yes. It's been on the wall since the time it was 17 published. 18 Q. Did you have any photographs in your study or office area 19 of Islamic scholars? 20 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 21 A. No. 22 THE COURT: Answered in any event. Overruled. 23 Q. And going forward into the office, whose photographs and 24 what kind of photographs did you maintain in your private 25 office? Are they Islamic leaders? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9158 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 2 THE COURT: He's already answered that, I believe. 3 Q. Turning to another photograph, Government Exhibit 2301L in 4 evidence. 5 MR. RUHNKE: I would like permission to display that 6 on the Elmo for the jury. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 Q. Looking at the exhibit marked 2301L in evidence, what is 9 depicted in that photograph, generally speaking? 10 A. This is a corner of the office where I was starting to pack 11 all my stuff, because we were moving so... 12 Q. And did you ever actually move after that? 13 A. No, we did not. 14 Q. And just moving the photograph over a little bit, and 15 zooming in on the top book, can you tell what that top book, 16 the title of that top book is? 17 A. It's a book published by Stanford University, Terror in the 18 Mind of God. 19 Q. And looking over to the left, do you see another book? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what is the title of that book? 22 A. Holy Wars. 23 Q. And looking at the pile of books that are at the top of the 24 photograph, are you able to read some of the titles of those 25 books? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9159 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes. These are some of the books that I used in teaching 2 my classes. History of the Middle East; Islam, a Short 3 History; Faith in the Mind of God; Arabic Intellectual Thoughts 4 in the Liberal Age; America and Political Islam. 5 Q. Now, why did you possess these kinds of books? 6 A. I teach the subject of Islam. I'm also -- at the time I 7 was writing about the topic of Islam, so all those books were 8 extremely important and helpful, in order to make me aware of 9 the current scholarship at the time. 10 Q. How long had you been teaching at the college level? 11 A. I believe seven years. 12 Q. Does the fact that an academic writes about a topic, what 13 does that mean about his or her views of -- as opposed to 14 endorsing or not endorsing a topic? Do you understand what I 15 mean? 16 A. Yes, I do. And if an academic is writing about a topic, 17 that does not mean that that academic endorsed that topic. 18 It's only a question that that academic wants to pursue, try to 19 find regimes of movements, intellectual investments of 20 movement, comparing such movements to other parts of the world, 21 social movements in the Middle East, comparing that to Latin 22 America. All of that is very, very helpful and very important 23 for us in order to understand how social movements develop. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Let me take that off the screen, if I 25 may. I'll display another section, if I may, this time SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9160 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Government Exhibit 2301M in evidence, with the Court's 2 permission. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 Q. In 2301M in evidence, are these additional books and 5 materials that you maintain in your home? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do these relate to -- what do these relate to? 8 A. The collection of books right next to the picture of 9 the four singers are books about culture, diversity, 10 multiculturism. These also, all these collection of books were 11 books that I used in teaching the culture diversity course at 12 New York College. 13 THE COURT: By the way, I'm not sure when you 14 answered -- the reporter got it down but -- is -- in 2301M in 15 evidence, are these additional books and terms that you 16 maintain in your home? I wasn't sure that you answered in 17 words as opposed to -- 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 20 Q. And to the left of the photograph, there appears to be a 21 photograph of somebody in an army uniform. Is that you? 22 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 Q. Is that you in that photograph? 25 A. Yes, it is. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9161 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. I see -- I'm sorry. Do you see what appear to be various 2 kinds of cassette type items in that photograph? 3 A. Yes. These are all videotapes of Arabic films, cinema, you 4 know, plays, songs, that I used over the years in teaching. 5 Most of them are subtitled. 6 MR. RUHNKE: And if I may display another exhibit at 7 this time, 2301-O in evidence, Government Exhibit 2301-O in 8 evidence. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 Q. And zooming out from that a little bit, what is depicted in 11 Government Exhibit 2301-O? 12 A. It's a bookshelf that contains on the bottom the appeal 13 actually, most of the books that I worked on for the appeal. 14 And on top -- 15 Q. When you refer -- let me interrupt for a moment. 16 When you're referring to the appeal, what are you 17 referring to? 18 A. I'm referring to the appeal that Mr. Ramsey Clark was 19 conducting for the Sheikh, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 20 Q. And to the left of the bookshelf, what is appear to be 21 audio cassettes. What are those audio cassettes? 22 A. These are collections of musics and songs that I collected 23 over the years; Arabic, Spanish, of course, and, you know, some 24 other languages. 25 Q. The item in the upper right-hand corner of the photograph, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9162 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 what is that? 2 A. Are you referring to the items on top of the shelf? 3 Q. No, I'm talking -- this item up here? 4 A. That's my father's. 5 Q. What is it? 6 A. That's my father's rug. 7 Q. What kind of rug? 8 A. It's a prayers rug. 9 Q. And I know I've asked you this before and asked you again: 10 Are you yourself an observant Muslim? 11 A. No. Neither is my father. He never prayed. He just had 12 one. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Going to the next series of photographs, 14 this will be the last one that I'll show, your Honor, with 15 permission. I'd like to display Government Exhibit, in 16 evidence, 2301P for Peter? 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 Q. I'll zoom back on that. What is displayed in that 19 photograph? 20 A. I believe these are my notebooks that I handed to Agent 21 Kimberly Whittle. 22 Q. And those are the same notebooks that you -- are now in 23 court? 24 A. I believe so, yes. 25 Q. Can you see from your copy or the one displayed copy an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9163 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 item behind the chair? 2 A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. 3 Q. Can you see from your copy an item that's behind the chair? 4 A. Yes, now I do. 5 Q. What is that item? 6 A. That is the laptop that was seized from my house. 7 Q. And that is the laptop that was produced in court? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And -- 10 A. That is the same one. 11 Q. And just to remind us, what was contained on that laptop 12 that we've discussed in court? 13 A. The versions of my dissertation, drafts of my dissertation. 14 Q. And when you returned home on the evening of April 9, 2002, 15 was that laptop still where it's shown in this photograph? 16 A. No, the laptop wasn't there. My wife's computer wasn't 17 there. So there was no computers at all in the house. 18 Q. Are you aware of approximately how many documents were 19 taken from your home? 20 A. I was told 26 boxes. 21 Q. Did you also have in your library books on Central America, 22 South America and other topics? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. What was your interest -- I'm sorry. 25 Why did you have books on Central and South America? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9164 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Objection. Relevance. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't hear the basis for the 4 objection. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't hear the basis. 7 THE COURT: Relevance. 8 BY MR. RUHNKE: 9 Q. Did you confine your academic interests to Islam and the 10 Middle East? 11 A. No, I did not. 12 Q. Did you also have an interest in other regions of the 13 world? 14 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 MR. RUHNKE: I'll move on. 17 Q. Do you know the name Rifa'i Taha? 18 A. Yes, I do know of the name, yes. 19 Q. And what was your understanding, or what is your 20 understanding as to who Rafa'i Taha is? 21 A. I believe the first time I heard the name was in late '99, 22 when he -- there was a few articles in the newspapers that he 23 was removed from the leadership of IG, al-Gama'a Islamiyya. 24 Q. Have you ever spoken with Rifa'i Taha? 25 A. Never. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9165 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Have you ever corresponded with him? 2 A. Never. 3 Q. To your knowledge have you ever met Rifa'i Taha? 4 A. Absolutely not. 5 Q. Do you recall evidence in this case about a book authored 6 by Rifa'i Taha? 7 A. I do remember that, yes. 8 Q. Prior to your arrest in April of 2002, had you ever seen a 9 copy -- 10 A. No -- 11 Q. -- of that book? 12 A. No, I did not see any copy of that book. 13 Q. Are you aware whether anyone else associated with this 14 case -- let me rephrase that question. 15 Directing your attention to a time prior to April 9 of 16 2002, were you aware that anyone else associated with this case 17 may have had conversations with Rifa'i Taha? 18 A. Not direct conversation. Yes, I'm aware of that. On 19 May 19th of 2000 there was a letter that Ms. Stewart asked me 20 to read to her prior to going to the prison, and it says in it 21 that Mr. Sattar was summarizing something to the Sheikh. And 22 in it he said that he's in contact with Abu Yasir, Rifa'i Taha. 23 And of course that meant he was in contact with him through 24 Muntasir Zayyat, to me, that that's what it meant. 25 Q. Were you aware at the time before your arrest and before SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9166 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 reviewing discovery materials of the nature of that contact? 2 A. No, absolutely not. 3 Q. Do you recall discussions in this case of an interview in 4 Al-Quds newspaper of Mr. Taha? 5 A. I do remember that, yes. 6 Q. And do you recall approximately when that interview took 7 place? 8 A. Actually, I'm not sure. I think '99, if I'm not mistaken, 9 1999. 10 Q. Early or late 1999? 11 A. I -- I can't -- I don't remember. 12 Q. Do you recall being asked at some point to read that 13 interview to Sheikh Rahman? 14 A. Not only to Sheikh Rahman. I thought that if I was able to 15 read that interview, it would help me in my dissertation, even 16 though I wasn't thinking of writing anything about him. And 17 the end period of my dissertation was 1995, and he was not 18 mentioned once even in my dissertation, because to me, he was 19 an insignificant figure up until 1995. 20 So, yes, I do remember that there was an interview 21 article that I was asked to read to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 22 Q. I'm going to show you a government exhibit in evidence 23 marked 2020 on the Elmo. 24 MR. RUHNKE: With the Court's permission. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9167 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Can you read -- I'm sorry. Can you see Government 2 Exhibit 2020 on the screen that's in front of you? 3 A. Yes, I can. 4 Q. And do you recall receiving that article in that form back 5 at around the time that it was published? 6 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 A. I received this document through fax. Mr. Sattar faxed 9 this document to me at shrink-to-fit, so basically I was not 10 able to read it. 11 Q. That was my next question. In the form that it got to you, 12 were you able to read the Arabic text? 13 A. No, I was not. 14 Q. Did you make any efforts to do anything with the article in 15 an effort to render it more legible? 16 A. I took the article along with me to Mr. Clark's office. I 17 told Mr. Clark about it. He asked me what the article 18 contains. I said, I have no idea, I can't read it. He asked 19 me to try to enlarge the article. I did a couple of times and 20 we were not successful. So I wasn't able to read it. 21 Q. You were not able to make out the Arabic text? 22 A. Absolutely not, no. I wasn't. 23 Q. Can you -- is there a portion of this article that bears 24 the date that you can see? If I zoomed it, where would it be? 25 A. If it does, it's not clear. I can't read it very clear. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9168 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Where would the date appear on the article? 2 A. On top. It would be on top of the box. 3 Q. And are you able to read the date of the article? 4 A. No. I'm sorry, Mr. Ruhnke, I can't read it. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with permission I'd like to 6 display the first page, or at least the top page of Government 7 Exhibit 2020T in evidence, then ask Mr. Yousry if he -- if that 8 reflects a date. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. Do you see the date displayed on Government Exhibit 2020T? 11 A. It says November 29, 1999. 12 Q. And does that refresh your recollection of about the time 13 you were asked to try to read this article to the Sheikh? 14 A. That's about right, yes. 15 Q. I'm going to display for you a series of documents in 16 evidence beginning at 2300. Do you have those series in front 17 of you, in your notebook? 18 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Ruhnke. Referring to ... 19 Q. Just a minute. If I could just have a moment. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'll display them on the 21 screen, if I may. They're Government Exhibit 2300A through D 22 in evidence. May I display them? 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 Q. What is shown in Government Exhibit 2300A? 25 A. This is a picture of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman holding what SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9169 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 appears to be a rifle. And I think this picture was taken of 2 him in Afghanistan in the '80s. 3 Q. And showing you 2300B, what is depicted in 2300B? 4 A. A picture of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman with some probably 5 Afghani soldiers or something, also in the '80s in Afghanistan. 6 Q. And 2300C? 7 A. Also it's a picture of Omar Abdel Rahman sitting on top of 8 what appears to be a military vehicle of some kind, surrounded 9 by several people. 10 Q. And finally, what is 2300D in evidence? 11 A. It appears to be during the same visit as well, a picture 12 of him with some Afghani people here in the '80s. 13 Q. And what was occurring in Afghanistan during the 1980s, to 14 your knowledge? 15 A. To my knowledge I believe the Afghani people were able to 16 defeat the Soviet Union at the time, and they were establishing 17 a Muslim state in Afghanistan. 18 Q. And we've heard the term "mujahadeen" used a lot in this 19 case. Was that term used in reference to the Afghani Soviet 20 war? 21 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Q. What does the term mujahadeen mean? 24 A. Well, the term mujahadeen means different things to 25 different people. But in context of this case, and in context SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9170 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 of Omar Abdel Rahman's ideas, it means a person who strives for 2 the sake of God. 3 Q. And are you aware of that term being used in any way in 4 connection with the war between Afghanistan and the Soviet 5 Union after the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan? 6 A. Yes, I am. And I'm aware that this term was used in order 7 to convince young people to join the battle -- they called it 8 the jihad battle -- against the Soviet. So they called 9 themselves mujahadeen, going to perform jihad. 10 Q. Where did the mujahadeen come from who fought in 11 Afghanistan? Was it just Afghanistan? Was it other countries? 12 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. Do you know what the position of the United States was in 15 reference to the mujahadeen -- 16 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 MS. BAKER: Would you ask the witness when I rise to 19 object, he not start answering. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't look at her. 22 THE COURT: Hold on. Stop. Stop. All right. 23 BY MR. RUHNKE: 24 Q. The photographs that I've just shown you, the 2300A through 25 D series, do you know where they were found in connection with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9171 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 this case? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Where were they found? 4 A. In my house. 5 Q. And did you have a discussion with -- did you have any 6 discussion with Agent Whittle when she came to your house on 7 April 9, 2002, with regard to these photographs? 8 A. She specifically asked for three things. 9 MS. BAKER: Objection, hearsay. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 Q. And when did you acquire the photographs that are marked 12 2300? 13 A. Those photographs were mailed from the Sheikh's family to 14 Mr. Clark's office. 15 Q. And do you know approximately when that occurred? 16 A. I believe it's June of 2001. 17 Q. Do you recall any discussion with Sheikh Rahman about these 18 photographs and what ought to be done with them? 19 A. Yes. Mr. Jabara, I believe, and Mr. Clark were the two 20 attorneys taking the call. They informed the Sheikh that they 21 received pictures of him when he was much younger. They 22 started to make jokes about it and stuff. And the Sheikh gave 23 them something, you know, instructions that those pictures 24 should be distributed. They should be given to people. 25 And after the call was over, Mr. Clark and Mr. Jabara SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9172 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 decided that they're not going to do any of that. And 2 Mr. Clark asked me if it would be helpful if I kept them; I 3 might be able to use them in my dissertation. And I said yes 4 so he gave them to me. 5 Q. Do you know where the photographs physically were on 6 April 9, 2002, when they came to your house? 7 A. They were in one of my notebooks, my notebooks connected to 8 this case. 9 Q. The notebooks that you've identified? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall in some of the taped evidence we've heard in 12 this case Sheikh Rahman writing a letter to Mr. Sattar 13 concerning your wife becoming a good Muslim? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. Did you ever discuss with your wife the prospect of 16 becoming a Muslim? 17 A. Absolutely not. I'm not a good Muslim. How can I speak to 18 her about being a good Muslim? No. 19 Q. Did Sheikh Rahman ever express his own views to you on your 20 religious practices or lack thereof? 21 A. He was, to put it mildly, extremely disappointed that I 22 drank; extremely disappointed that I do not pray; extremely 23 disappointed that I do not know verses of the Koran. And 24 frankly it didn't bother me so ... 25 Q. And do you recall hearing in this courtroom references to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9173 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Sheikh Rahman's will? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 MR. RUHNKE: And I'm going to display, with the 4 Court's permission, Government Exhibit 2507T in evidence. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 Q. The document 2507T in evidence -- 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Ruhnke. The exhibit is 8 2057T? 9 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: OK. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Did I misspeak? 12 THE COURT: I think the last couple of questions may 13 have been directed to 2517. That's why I stopped you. 14 But it's -- you're referring to Government 15 Exhibit 2057T? 16 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, I'm referring to the current 17 exhibit, 2057T, your Honor, in evidence. 18 THE COURT: OK. 19 BY MR. RUHNKE: 20 Q. Now, this document is marked 2057T in evidence. Did you 21 ever have this document in your home? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And does this document discuss the Sheikh's views on a 24 number of issues? 25 A. Yes, it does. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9174 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Does it contain -- if you can recall -- a discussion of 2 whether people should join with the Christians? 3 A. It does. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm going to display from 5 this document page four, with permission. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 Q. Do you see the -- on that screen the phrase right in the 8 middle, "take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends 9 and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each 10 other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) 11 is of them." Do you see that document? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Have you taken Jews and Christians as your friends and 14 protectors? 15 A. I took Christians as my wife and my daughter. Jewish 16 people are similar, they're my friends. I have several friends 17 that are Jewish. 18 Q. And to your knowledge would that meet with Sheikh Rahman's 19 approval? 20 A. I don't think so, no. 21 Q. Did you have anything to do with a will of Sheikh Rahman? 22 A. No, I did not, not this particular will, no. 23 Q. How about another one? 24 A. Yes, there was another will that he, I believe, dictated in 25 the presence of Mr. Ramsey Clark with respect to his money, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9175 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 with respect to his family in Egypt. I translated that will to 2 Mr. Clark. Mr. Clark signed it, got it approved, I believe, 3 from the prison. And then Mr. Clark and Mr. Jabara took it to 4 the Egyptian embassy and they got it sealed. 5 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, with permission I'd like 6 to display Exhibit MY500. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MS. BAKER: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Oh. 10 MS. BAKER: It's not in evidence. 11 MR. RUHNKE: I'm sorry, you're right. I'm sorry. 12 Can we display it only to the witness, please, on the 13 screen. 14 THE COURT: All right? Are you able to see that 15 document now. 16 THE WITNESS: Not yet. Not yet. 17 BY MR. RUHNKE: 18 Q. OK. 19 A. It's up now. 20 Q. Now you can see it. And what is Defendant's Exhibit MY5 -- 21 THE COURT: Hold on. It should not be on the screen 22 before the jury. 23 MR. RUHNKE: It's not, your Honor, I don't think. 24 It's not. 25 Q. What is Defendant's Exhibit MY500? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9176 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 A. It's a draft translation of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's will 2 that he dictated in front of Mr. Ramsey Clark. 3 Q. And do you know whether you had that document in your home 4 on April 9, 2002, when it was searched by the FBI? 5 A. Yes, it was in my house. It was -- 6 Q. Is that -- is the copy you're looking at a true and 7 accurate copy of MY500? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I offer MY500. 10 THE COURT: All right. No objection, MY500 received 11 in evidence. 12 (Defendant's Exhibit MY500 received in evidence) 13 MR. RUHNKE: Can we display it now to the jury. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. RUHNKE: And can we highlight the text on MY500. 16 Thank you. 17 BY MR. RUHNKE: 18 Q. Looking at MY500, Mr. Yousry, first of all, although it 19 does not show it very clearly on the screen, down the bottom of 20 the exhibit -- leave the highlighting as it is -- down the 21 bottom of the screen do you see this item that I have just 22 circled? 23 A. Yes. It's a sticker, I believe. 24 Q. And was that a sticker that you yourself had placed on 25 there? Have you seen that sticker in other places? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9177 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 A. I think it's an FBI sticker, not me. I did not. 2 Q. And to your knowledge this document was seized by the FBI, 3 or was it not, seized on April 9, 2002? 4 A. I think it was seized by the FBI, yes. 5 MR. RUHNKE: I would like, your Honor, with the 6 Court's permission to read the English text of the document. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. RUHNKE: It's headed, the last will and testament 9 of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 10 Every soul will face death. I am appointing Ahmed 11 Abdel Sattar and Nabil Elmasry as executors of my last will and 12 testament. 13 In the name of God, the merciful, compassionate, 14 thanks be to God. Peace and prayers be upon his prophet. I 15 have designated brother Ahmed Abdel Sattar and brother Nabil 16 Elmasry to execute this last will and testament. They shall 17 possess the absolute right to dispose of all my belongings and 18 decide what to send to my relatives. They shall be responsible 19 for settling all my debts in Egypt, in America and any other 20 place. They shall receive my body from the American 21 government, prepare it for burial according to Islamic 22 traditions and ensure its transport to my relatives in Egypt. 23 They shall announce the circumstances of my death to the 24 Islamic world. I am giving them permission to hold a press 25 conference, speak in my name and make any necessary SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9178 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 announcements. They shall have the right to speak on my behalf 2 to my lawyers in Egypt as well as the United States, and to any 3 other legal organization. They shall have the right to approve 4 or disapprove any marriage proposal made to my children, 5 whether male or female, based on the piety and capabilities of 6 the respective bride or groom. I request that Mr. Ramsey Clark 7 undertake all the necessary legal steps in order to ensure that 8 my last will and testament is duly executed. 9 As God is my witness, may God lead us to the right 10 path. He is the leader. Peace and mercy upon you. March 4, 11 1997. 12 And then does there follow a handwritten English 13 language portion of that text, Mr. Yousry? 14 A. I see it. 15 Q. Is there now a handwritten portion that follows March 4, 16 1997? 17 A. There is some written in Arabic and some written in 18 English. 19 Q. Sticking with the materials written in English, do you 20 recognize the handwriting? 21 A. I believe it's mine. 22 Q. If we could highlight just the bottom portion of that. All 23 right, we can leave it there. 24 Can you read it as it's stated there. 25 A. I think I can. I further request that a complete autopsy SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9179 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 be made in the event of my death to determine the cause of my 2 death. 3 Q. Now, is there more to this document, MY500? 4 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "more." 5 Q. If you could look at the last two pages of Exhibit 500. 6 And if we could display the last -- the first page of the last 7 two pages, just display it for the jury. And if we could just 8 enlarge the text. 9 Did this will undergo some revisions along the way? 10 A. Yes, it did. 11 Q. And was this the final version of the will that you were 12 involved in regarding Omar Abdel Rahman? 13 A. I think it is, yes. 14 Q. And to your knowledge, was this, along with the other 15 portions of MY500, seized from your home on or about April 9, 16 2002? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what happened to your knowledge with this document? 19 A. Right after it was completed, I believe Mr. Clark had to 20 authenticate the document. He got it stamped from the prison, 21 if I'm not mistaken. Mr. Clark and Mr. Jabara went to the 22 Egyptian embassy and they got it sealed and they mailed a copy 23 to the Sheikh's family in Egypt. I know that they gave a copy 24 to Mr. Sattar and a copy to Mr. Elmasry. 25 Q. We referred earlier to Government Exhibit 2057T, which is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9180 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 another will attributed to Sheikh Rahman. Do you know what I'm 2 talking about? 3 A. Yes, I do. I do. 4 Q. And I don't know if I asked you this before: Did you ever 5 possess this document in your home? 6 A. No. No, I didn't. 7 Q. Were you aware of this document? 8 A. There was some fax from Ms. Stewart to me in order to read 9 to Mr. Clark from CNN. And there was some inquiry about some 10 will. That's the only thing I know about that. I was not 11 working on the case from, as I said before, from 1996 until 12 June of 1997, except with the occasional visits that the 13 lawyers did. 14 Q. And we can take that down, now. 15 In terms of your duties and working with the lawyers 16 and the representation of Sheikh Rahman, did the lawyers 17 occasionally ask you to do other things than simply be a 18 translator? 19 A. Yes. I coordinated between the lawyers. I coordinated 20 between the lawyers and the client, things of this nature, yes. 21 Q. Did there ever come a time when you were asked to do 22 something regarding money? 23 A. No. I got paid actually. If you're referring to the money 24 that I get paid to work with, Mr. Sattar approach me for -- 25 yes, I think so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9181 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Let me back up on the question. We'll take a break in a 2 minute, Mr. Yousry. 3 Did you get approached and asked something to do with 4 money? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Were you paid a certain sum of money -- I think we've seen 7 the check -- from Ms. Stewart's trust account? 8 A. Yes. I was paid $35,000 to cover the difference in my 9 original voucher that I didn't get from the government, and 10 Mr. Clark and Ms. Stewart were not able to recover this money 11 from me. On top of that, I had, I think it was, 11,000 for the 12 rest of my services. So a total of 35, if I'm not mistaken. 13 Q. And did there come times when other checks were written to 14 you by Ms. Stewart from that trust account? 15 A. I remember there were two checks after that. 16 Q. And what happened with the money that was written in those 17 trust account checks? 18 A. Well, it was discussed several times that Mr. Sattar wanted 19 to start a business in order to be -- 20 Q. Let me stop you there. Did you come to learn that at some 21 point Mr. Sattar actually did -- I'll back up even further. 22 I'm sorry. 23 Do you know what Mr. Sattar's employment is, where he 24 worked? 25 A. I know that Mr. Sattar was working for the post office, the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9182 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 postal service. 2 Q. And did there come a time when he tried to start up, or did 3 start up another business? 4 A. He started up a milk formula, baby formula business, yes. 5 Q. And, again, to your knowledge what did that baby formula 6 business consist of? What did he do? 7 A. I don't know more than he used to buy, you know, boxes of 8 that stuff wholesale and sell it retail, I believe. Something 9 like that. 10 Q. Now, with that background, how did the money fit into that 11 scenario? 12 A. Well, Mr. Sattar approached me and he said that he was 13 thinking of starting this business. And he cleared this up 14 with Ms. Stewart and I know that he spoke about it with other 15 lawyers. And, you know, he asked for $10,000 to start that 16 business. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we have an instruction 18 that these statements are not offered for their truth? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Agreed, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, any statements 22 that were made to the witness are not being offered for the 23 truth of anything in those statements, but solely for their 24 effect on the witness' state of mind. 25 All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9183 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. All right. So, Mr. Sattar approached you and requested 2 money to help with starting a business, is that correct? 3 A. Right, he did. He said that he cleared this up with 4 Ms. Stewart. And I know he -- he spoke about it with other 5 lawyers. And he wanted to start a business in order to be able 6 to pay the lawyers, pay me and get the conditions lawsuit 7 started. And Ms. Lynne Stewart, I think, was not in town. And 8 he said he needed the $10,000. And since I just got paid, I 9 had money, and he said I can get reimbursed later on, and 10 that's what happened. So I -- 11 Q. During that period of time, during 1991 even up to 1992, 12 what were your primary sources of income? 13 A. 1991, 1992? 14 Q. Let's take the year 1991, the year before -- the full year 15 before you were arrested. What -- 16 A. 2000 you mean, 2000? 17 Q. OK, I'm sorry. And 2001 for that matter. 18 During the years 2000/2001 what were your primary 19 sources of income? 20 A. Basically I had four jobs, if I'm not mistaken. I was 21 working on two translation projects for the Court -- for the 22 federal courts. I was also working for ABC as a 23 translator/interpreter. I was teaching at York College, and I 24 was working for Young Adult Institute as well. 25 Q. Was your wife also employed? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9184 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, my wife was a teacher, yes, teaching at a Christian 2 school in Westchester. 3 Q. And during the year, for example, 2000, what was your rough 4 family income that year? 5 A. Close to $225,000. 6 Q. And going back to the story with Mr. Sattar, after you 7 advanced him the $10,000, were you reimbursed for that or did 8 that money come back to you in any way? 9 A. Yes, I was reimbursed by that. 10 Q. Who were you reimbursed by? 11 A. Ms. Stewart. When she came back, I told her. 12 Q. There's been discussion, and we've heard some tapes, about 13 the committee to free Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. And did that 14 committee function? What was the story of that committee? 15 A. The committee was always an idea, and the committee was 16 never materialized. We had a couple of meetings I know of. 17 One was attended by Mr. Clark, and I believe one was attended 18 by Ms. Stewart. 19 Q. Who asked you to participate in those committee meetings? 20 A. The lawyer in charge asked me to participate in those 21 meetings. Also the client, Sheikh Omar, wanted me to attend in 22 order to be able to report back to the lawyers about what 23 happened. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, this would be a convenient 25 time for a break, if we may. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9185 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll 2 break for ten minutes. Please remember my continuing 3 instructions. Please, don't talk about the case at all. 4 Always remember to keep an open mind. 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9186 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 2 MR. RUHNKE: We are ready. 3 THE COURT: Bring in the jury. 4 (Jury present) 5 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 6 Mr. Fletcher? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 8 you are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. 10 THE COURT: All right, you may proceed. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, turning to the topic of the SAMs, the Special 13 Administrative Measures, to the best of your ability to recall, 14 when do you think was the first time you actually saw the 15 documents that are called Special Administrative Measures and 16 the accompanying attorney affirmations? 17 A. I believe that was sometime in 2001, late 2000. 18 I heard about the SAMs before but I probably never 19 read them before that. 20 Q. Were you ever called upon to translate the SAMs for Sheikh 21 Rahman? 22 A. He refused. He did not want to be informed of the SAM. 23 His position was that the lawyers will tell him what 24 to do. 25 Q. So what is your answer? Did you ever actually, word for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9187 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 word, translate the SAMs to Sheikh Rahman? 2 A. No, he didn't want that. 3 Q. Have you ever actually read through the SAMs? 4 A. I did look through them, yes. 5 Q. And did you take away from them a general understanding of 6 what they were about? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. And what was that general understanding? 9 A. Basically there was some restriction imposed on the client, 10 Omar Abdel Rahman, and the lawyers are in charge of that. They 11 were the ones who were going to inform people who work with him 12 about what to do and what not to do with respect to the SAM. 13 That is basically it. 14 The bottom line is that the lawyers were in charge. 15 Q. I believe you testified earlier in the case that the SAMs 16 seemed to change from time to time, is that correct? 17 A. I became aware of that after Ms. Stewart's press release, 18 yes. 19 Q. Do you recall a particular rapid change in what the SAMs -- 20 or what your understanding was of what the SAMs permitted or 21 did not permit? 22 A. At some point, yes. The lawyers informed me that the new 23 changes do not allow the reading of foreign newspapers. 24 Q. And do you recall having a telephone discussion about that 25 at the time with one of the attorneys? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9188 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Who did you discuss that with? 3 A. I believe Mr. Schilling. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this time we would like to 5 play an English language call marked Defendant's MY-1716 and 6 display the accompanying English language transcript as an aid 7 to the jury. 8 MS. BAKER: Objection. Lack of foundation. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, a couple questions and then I am also going to 10 read the stipulation. 11 Have you listened to the English language call dated 12 designated MY-1617, have you heard the call? 13 A. I have heard the call before, yes. 14 Q. Does it fairly and accurately depict what occurred during 15 that telephone conversation on that date? 16 A. It does, yes. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we would also like to read a 18 stipulation that the parties have agreed on, it is marked 19 MY-Stip 5 and I would display it for the jury, if I may? 20 THE COURT: MY-Stip 5 received in evidence. 21 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-Stip- 5 received in evidence) 22 MR. RUHNKE: The parties hereby stipulate and agree 23 that: 24 If called as a witness, Special Agent Scott Kerns of 25 the Federal Bureau of Investigation, would testify as follows: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9189 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 He prepared two CDs which he marked defense 2_8539 and 2 Defense4. These CDs contain .voc audio files that were 3 recorded by the FBI using the Raytheon system and audio files 4 that were recorded by the FBI using the Lockheed Martin system 5 and then converted to .voc files. 6 He retrieved and copied the audio files to the CDs 7 using the same procedure and equipment that he described in his 8 previous testimony. 9 The CD marked Defense 2_8539 contains the audio files 10 that correspond to the transcripts marked MY-1701 through 11 MY-1707, MY-1711 and MY-1712, MY-1714, MY-1716, MY-1717, 12 MY-1723 and MY-1728. The CD marked Defense4 contains audio 13 files that correspond to the transcripts marked MY-1729 and 14 MY-1730. 15 If called as a witness, Special Agent Steven Sorrells 16 of the FBI would testify as follows: 17 He prepared a CD which he marked with his initial, SES 18 and the date 11/8/04. The CD contains an audio file that he 19 retrieved from a magneto optical disk containing audio files 20 that were recorded by the FBI using the Lockheed Martin system 21 and then converted to .voc files. 22 B. He retrieved and copied the audio file which 23 corresponds to the transcript marked MY-1710, to the CD, using 24 the same procedure and equipment that Scott Kerns described in 25 his testimony. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9190 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 And it is agreed and stipulated and is signed by all 2 the parties. We will just display the signatures on MY-Stip 5. 3 Your Honor, unless there is further objection, I would 4 at this time offer MY-1716 and ask that it be played. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Ruhnke? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 (Counsel conferring) 8 BY MR. RUHNKE: 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, the recording we are about to hear is an 10 excerpt from the complete audio file and does, are the 11 excerpts, accurate recording of what occurred during the 12 excerpted parts of the audio file? 13 A. As far as I know, yes. 14 Q. And I think there is a stipulation about the excerpts that 15 have been read to the jury before. 16 Your Honor, I do offer MY 1716 and ask that it be 17 played. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Ruhnke 20 again, please? 21 THE COURT: Subject to a limiting instruction. 22 MR. RUHNKE: Yes. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, no objection, subject to the 24 limiting instruction that applies to all calls and that the 25 transcript is only an aid to the jury. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9191 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. RUHNKE: If I may bring the transcript up? 3 THE COURT: Hold on just one moment. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, you have heard that this is an 5 English language call so the transcript is only an aid to your 6 listening to the recording. 7 The recording is in evidence and I have explained to 8 you that when it is an English language recording, the 9 transcript is an aid to your listening to the recording. If 10 you think you hear something differently on the recording, of 11 course it is your understanding of what you hear that governs 12 the transcript as an aid to your listening to the recording. 13 Further, Mr. Yousry's statements on the recording are 14 not admitted for their truth but only as evidence of his 15 knowledge, intent or state of mind, and any statements by any 16 other people on the recording are not admitted for their truth 17 but only for their effect, if any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, 18 intent or state of mind. 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Ruhnke 20 again, please? 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 (Counsel conferring) 23 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if we can now play MY-1716, 24 which is the excerpted portion of the conversation. And 25 display the transcript, the English language transcript as an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9192 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 aid? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MY-1716 received in evidence, subject to the limiting 4 instruction that I have given you and the transcript is an aid 5 to listening to -- is MY 1716 the transcript? 6 MR. RUHNKE: 1716 is the CD and the transcript is 7 1716X. 8 THE COURT: All right. MY-1716, the CD, is received 9 in evidence, and MY-1716X, the transcript, is received as an 10 aid to the jury's listening to the recording MY-1716. 11 All right, you may proceed. 12 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-1716 received in evidence) 13 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. I will display 14 the transcript. 15 THE COURT: The jurors will put on the headphone, dot 16 out, turn them on. 17 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1716, in evidence, 18 was displayed and read to the jury) 19 BY MR. RUHNKE: 20 Q. Do you recall the date of this particular conversation, 21 Mr. Yousry? 22 THE COURT: Take the headphones off, please. 23 A. I think it was August -- August of 2000, I think. 24 Q. And do you recall when the next prison call with the Sheikh 25 was to take place? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9193 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 A. I believe it was the next day. Maybe August 29th or 2 something like that. 3 Q. And during the next day, was there a discussion during the 4 call itself, of this apparent change regarding foreign press? 5 A. Yes. 6 I was told to inform the Sheikh, I believe 7 Mr. Schilling told me to inform the Sheikh that foreign 8 newspapers, which they interpreted to be the Arab newspapers, 9 were not permitted. 10 Q. Up until August 28th or August 29 of 2000, had anybody ever 11 communicated to you, lawyers or anyone else, about any 12 prohibition of reading newspapers of any kind? 13 A. No. Not to my knowledge, no. 14 Q. And was it a common practice during the prison calls? 15 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 Q. Was it a common or unusual thing to occur, during the 18 prison calls? 19 A. It was done on every single legal weekly call. If 20 Mr. Clark was there, he would do that. If Mr. Schilling was 21 there, he would do that. If Ms. Stewart was the one taking the 22 call, she would do that. If Mr. Jabara was taking the call, he 23 also would do that. 24 So, it occurred every single time. 25 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this point, with the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9194 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Court's permission, we would like to read and display and mark 2 into evidence Defense Exhibit MY-1214-X1, and then read it to 3 the jury. It is an Arabic translation. 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Ruhnke? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (Counsel conferring) 7 BY MR. RUHNKE: 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, did you participate in this phone call? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Have you listened to a tape of the phone call? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. Have you listened to the Arabic tape of the phone call? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. To your knowledge is the transcript, the English transcript 15 of that Arabic call and the excerpt from that call, a true and 16 accurate rendition of that call? 17 A. I believe so. 18 MR. RUHNKE: I offer MY-1214-X1. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, no objection, subject to the 21 limiting instruction. 22 THE COURT: Yes, all right. 23 MY-1214-X1 received in evidence. 24 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-1214-X1 received in evidence) 25 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this exhibit is not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9195 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 admitted for the truth of any of the contents of the exhibits. 2 Any statements by Mr. Yousry are admitted only as evidence of 3 his knowledge, intent or state of mind; and the statements by 4 others are admitted only for their effect, if any, on 5 Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with the government's 7 consent, Mr. Paul Nepper is going to read the part of 8 Mr. Yousry in this call. And if you would come forward, 9 Mr. Nepper? And I will read the part of both Mr. Schilling and 10 Omar Abdel Rahman. It is a very brief excerpt. 11 Could we display MY-1214-X1, please? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. RUHNKE: It begins, it is a call marked August 29, 14 2000, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1214-X1 if Mr. Nepper would read 15 the part beginning with Mr. Yousry. 16 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1214-X1, in 17 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 18 MR. RUHNKE: That ends the excerpt of that particular 19 conversation. 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you recall during the conversation of August 21 29, 2000, whether that was what you understood to be a 22 direction that was followed? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Was there, in fact, any reading of foreign press to Sheikh 25 Rahman during that meeting? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9196 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 A. No. There was no reading of Arab press. 2 Q. Did that policy, practice of not reading foreign press, 3 remain in effect thereafter? 4 A. I believe it remained in effect for a couple of weeks. 5 Q. And what happened, to your knowledge? How did you learn -- 6 I will withdraw that: 7 Did, to your knowledge, the policy change? 8 A. Yes, the policy did change. 9 Q. How did you learn that the policy had changed? 10 A. I was told that I'm to read him the Arab newspaper. I was 11 told that was lawyers had maintained and decided that it's 12 okay. 13 Q. Do you remember which particular attorney told that you it 14 was now okay to read the Arab press again? 15 A. I don't recall. Maybe Mr. Jabara, Ms. Stewart. I don't 16 know. 17 Q. Basically you don't know? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall whether it was one of the attorneys? 20 A. Yes, it was one of the attorneys. 21 Q. And have you listened to a tape recording of a call that 22 took place on September 5, 2000? 23 A. Did you say September 5? 24 Q. September 5, 2000. 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9197 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And have you listened to that entire call? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. Have you listened to it in both the English and Arabic 4 portions of it? 5 A. I did. 6 Q. Have you listened to an excerpt from that call designated 7 1216-X5? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. Does that excerpt appear in the complete call? 10 A. I believe so. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with permission, we would 12 like to read to the jury the excerpt marked MY-1261-X5. 13 THE COURT: Hold on one moment, it's 1261-X5? 14 MR. RUHNKE: MY -- I'm sorry. MY-1216-X5. 15 THE COURT: No objection. MY-1216-X5. 16 Is this a, 1216-X5 is a transcript? 17 MR. RUHNKE: 1216-X5 is an Arabic translation of the 18 tape recording, so it is offered in evidence. 19 THE COURT: All right. I have previously instructed 20 you, ladies and gentlemen, on how transcripts of underlying 21 recordings which are in Arabic, the transcripts are received in 22 evidence and so, MY-1216-X5 is received in evidence and it is 23 subject to the same limiting instruction that I have given you 24 with respect to other recordings and transcripts of recordings. 25 The exhibit is not admitted for the truth of any of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9198 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 its contents. Mr. Yousry's statements are admitted only as 2 evidence of his knowledge, intent or state of mind. And 3 statements by others are admitted only for their effect, if 4 any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 5 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-1216-X5 received in evidence) 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, Mr. Nepper again is going to 7 read the part of Mr. Yousry and I will read the part of Sheikh 8 Rahman. If we can have this one page displayed for the jury, 9 please? 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 MR. RUHNKE: The call is dated September 5, 2000, it 12 is designated Defendant's Exhibit MY-1216-X5. 13 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1216-X5, in 14 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 15 MR. RUHNKE: That completes the reading of 1216-X5, 16 your Honor. 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, in the course of that excerpt from the 18 September 5, 2000 telephone call, did you refer to the 19 attorneys and what they had told you about foreign language 20 newspapers? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And, in essence, what had they told you? 23 A. Yes, I was told to do that. Yes. 24 Q. And, were you, did you ask for any explanation as to why 25 this had changed? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9199 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. In the course of the excerpt we just read which is in 3 evidence, the following sentence appears attributed to you: 4 "Yes. They said they don't see any objection of reading you 5 the Arabic newspapers as long as -- as long as they are told 6 about it." 7 Do you know what that refers to? 8 A. It refers to the process that we followed from the 9 beginning. I would summarize the article to the lawyer in 10 charge. Some lawyers would just want to know the headlines. 11 And that's basically the path that we followed. 12 So, if I tell them that this is the newspaper, these 13 are the articles in it... yes, you can read that, fine. And it 14 is read. 15 Q. In describing your own role, state of mind, your view of 16 the SAMs, what view did you have of how it was determined what 17 could be done or could not be done with the SAMs? 18 A. The lawyers had the authority to tell me what to do and 19 what not to do. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I don't know if the jury's 21 lunch is here yet. I'm about to start a brand-new area. 22 THE COURT: I would, if you would start the area. 23 MR. RUHNKE: Okay. 24 THE COURT: It is a little early for the regular 25 lunch. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9200 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: That's okay, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Sorry? 3 MR. RUHNKE: It is fine. I will start a new area. 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, I am going to direct your attention to the 5 period of time which we discussed briefly yesterday -- or the 6 day before -- of June 2000, with the issue of the peace 7 initiative. 8 Do you know what I'm talking about? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. And with the Court's permission, your Honor, I would like 11 to briefly display, again, Defendant's Exhibit MY-50, which is 12 a demonstrative aid to the jury. 13 THE COURT: You said that this is a convenient time to 14 break. Mr. Fletcher advises me that the jurors do have their 15 lunch. 16 MR. RUHNKE: All right, your Honor. That would be 17 convenient. 18 THE COURT: So we will break until 1:40, 20 of 2:00. 19 We will break until quarter of two, that's 1:45. 20 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 21 instructions. Please don't talk about the case at all. Always 22 remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all of the 23 evidence, I have instructed you on the law and you have gone to 24 the jury room to begin your deliberations. Have a good lunch. 25 I look forward to seeing you this afternoon. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9201 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: Please be back by 20 minutes of 2:00. 6 (Luncheon recess) 7 (Continued next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9203 4bhesat4 1 (Page 9202 sealed by order of the Court) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: One juror got an incorrect lunch, and the 4 correct lunch will be delivered at the break. 5 We're ready to begin, though, in the afternoon. So 6 Mr. Yousry will take the stand. 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9204 4bhesat4 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 3 Good to see you all. 4 All right. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you're 6 still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 9 BY MR. RUHNKE: 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, just before the break we started to go back to 11 the period of June 2000 and the press release, press interview 12 regarding the peace initiative. Do you remember that period of 13 time? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, with the Court's 16 permission I'd like to place on the Elmo and display for the 17 jury Defendants' Exhibit MY50, which is a demonstrative exhibit 18 consisting of the chronology of events. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, are you able to read that or see that 21 chronology, Defendant's Exhibit MY50? 22 A. Yes, I am. 23 Q. And following through the chronology, on May 19 and 20 of 24 the year 2000 did you and Ms. Stewart visit Sheikh Rahman at 25 the Federal Medical Center in Rochester? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9205 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, correct. 2 Q. During the course of that visit, was the topic raised of a 3 letter to Mr. Sattar? 4 A. A letter from Mr. Sattar, yes. 5 Q. A letter from Mr. Sattar? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And prior to going into the prison -- well, little 8 background. 9 What language was that letter from Mr. Sattar written 10 in? 11 A. It was written in Arabic. 12 Q. And prior to going into the prison on May 19, 2000, had you 13 done something to -- with one of the attorneys regarding that 14 letter? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. And what did you do? 17 A. I read the letter for Ms. Stewart. 18 Q. And did you ask her anything at all about the letter? 19 A. No. Ms. Stewart wanted to know if the letter conveys 20 questions to the Sheikh about -- from his supporters, critical 21 people in Egypt, things of this nature. And I said yes, it 22 does. 23 Q. And did you translate verbatim the contents of the letter? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Thereafter, did you read the letter to Sheikh Rahman? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9206 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Was that approved or disapproved by one of the attorneys? 3 A. It was approved by Ms. Stewart, yes. 4 Q. And in the letter, among the topics discussed, was there a 5 discussion of the Sheikh's view on the peace initiative? 6 A. There was a specific question to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman 7 about that, yes. 8 Q. Do you remember what the question was in sum and substance? 9 A. In substance the question was to escalate the rhetoric in 10 the media. 11 Q. Was there a question posed to Sheikh Rahman? 12 A. There was a suggestion to him that some people who are in 13 touch with Muntasir Zayyat in Egypt would like to escalate the 14 rhetoric in the media. 15 Q. Did the Sheikh dictate or reply to Mr. Sattar's letter? 16 A. He did. 17 Q. And on what date did he dictate a reply? 18 A. The following day. 19 Q. And without going through that, was the process of him 20 replying to the letter captured on videotape and audiotape and 21 displayed to the jury? 22 A. Yes, it was. 23 Q. Did you write the reply in your notebook? 24 A. I wrote it on a separate piece of paper. 25 Q. And I know this may be repeating, but did you see in court SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9207 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 that process replicated on videotape? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And after you left the prison on May 20, 2000, and 4 returned -- I'm sorry. 5 After you left the prison on May 20, 2000, did you 6 have occasion to actually translate the letter to Ms. Stewart? 7 A. Yes. I'm not sure if we flew back on Saturday or Sunday 8 morning, so if we flew back the next day, most likely I 9 translated that letter to Ms. Stewart either over dinner or 10 once we went back to the hotel. 11 Q. When you got back to New York City, who had physical 12 possession of the letter? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. And what did you do with the letter? Just stop a second. 15 Did you retain custody forever of the letter, or did 16 you do something with it? 17 A. I did not retain custody of it, no. 18 Q. What did you do with the letter? 19 A. I had a back problem at the time. I wasn't able to go to 20 Mr. Clark's office for the meeting, the regular meeting that we 21 have after the visits. So I wasn't able to go. Mr. Sattar 22 stopped by my house and asked me to have his letter and the 23 letters for Mr. Nasser and I think Mr. Nabil Elmasry as well. 24 Usually Mr. Sattar, whether or not I give it to him, you know, 25 he runs that by the lawyers, too, so ... SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9208 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Had Ms. Stewart expressed her approval or disapproval of 2 delivering the contents of the letter to Mr. Sattar? 3 A. Oh, Ms. Stewart was aware of the content and she thought 4 that the content was fine. 5 Q. And as we know from the evidence we've heard in this case, 6 on or about June 13 there was a discussion with a Reuters 7 representative from Cairo. Do you remember that? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. And were you present for that discussion? 10 A. No, I was not. 11 Q. Did you offer any translation services in connection with 12 that discussion with the reporter? 13 A. No, I did not. 14 Q. Did you ever translate the letter in Arabic that you gave 15 to Mr. Sattar into English? 16 A. No, I did not. 17 Q. Now, on June 14, again, reprising evidence we've all heard, 18 did stories begin to appear in the Arabic press in -- 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I object to the leading. 20 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained. 21 Q. What happened on June 14, Mr. Yousry? 22 A. I believe the press release was published all over the 23 Arabic newspapers. 24 Q. And did you also become aware of anything regarding 25 Mr. Sattar, any discussion of Mr. Sattar in connection with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9209 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 that publicity? 2 A. I believe that night Ms. Stewart called me and she 3 expressed her concern that Mr. Sattar was upset. He was having 4 a problem, something like that. And I called him up to find 5 out what's going on. But there was a lot of press coverage, 6 yes. 7 Q. And on the next day of June 15, did you have a telephone 8 conversation with Mr. Sattar? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. And was that telephone conversation actually played in 11 court? 12 A. Yes, it was. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Now I'm going to take you to June 20 of 2000. Do you 14 recall there being a prison call, meaning a call from prison, 15 from Sheikh Rahman that day? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. And to your knowledge was that call recorded or not 18 recorded? 19 A. It was not recorded. 20 Q. Again, to your knowledge, based on what you've learned 21 about this case, when did the recordings of the prison calls 22 actually commence? 23 A. June 23 of the year 2000. 24 Q. And what was the discussion and general sense that took 25 place on June 20? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9210 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Well, June 20th the discussion was regarding all the press 2 that came out after the press release by Ms. Stewart. There 3 was a need -- I believe Ms. Stewart felt there was a need to 4 clarify the Sheikh's position, and the Sheikh felt the same. 5 And I think the Sheikh conveyed to Ms. Stewart that he would 6 like to reply and he would like to clarify the earlier 7 statement. 8 Q. And in the course of that prison visit did the Sheikh 9 dictate his clarification or reply? 10 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 11 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. And is -- sustained as to 12 leading. 13 And the question was with respect to a prison visit? 14 MR. RUHNKE: If I said that, your Honor, I misspoke. 15 I'm sorry. Let me rephrase the question entirely. 16 Q. During the prison -- the call from prison on June 20, 2000, 17 do you recall whether or not the Sheikh dictated anything with 18 regard to any clarification? 19 A. Yes -- 20 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 21 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. 22 Q. During the June 20, 2000, call what was the discussion of 23 replying to the news reports? 24 A. As I said earlier, there was a discussion regarding the 25 news accounts, articles. And the Sheikh and Ms. Stewart agreed SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9211 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 that the need for clarification -- and the Sheikh asked 2 Ms. Stewart for permission to dictate a clarification. And -- 3 Q. Did -- 4 A. -- he did. 5 Q. As a reply to the request for permission, did the Sheikh 6 dictate a reply or not? 7 A. Yes, he did. 8 Q. And did you have with you that day a notebook? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. And did you or did you not record in your notebook the 11 reply from the Sheikh? 12 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. Did the Sheikh make his position known on that date? 15 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 16 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained. 17 Q. What occurred with regard to the clarification statement? 18 A. The Sheikh dictated I believe five points to clarify his 19 earlier statement. 20 Q. And were those five points recorded by anybody anywhere in 21 any kind of medium at all? 22 A. I took down the five points in my notebooks, yes. 23 Q. And would you pick up the notebook in front of you that 24 contains pages 1099 through 1095. 25 MS. BAKER: For the record, which exhibit number is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9212 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 that, please. 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't hear what Ms. Baker said. 4 THE COURT: What's the exhibit number, please. 5 MR. RUHNKE: I will get the exhibit number in a 6 second. 7 THE COURT: And is the question pages 1099 through 8 1095? 9 MR. RUHNKE: 1099 through -- I'll double check the 10 pages, your Honor, and state them precisely. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see them. I have them here. 12 BY MR. RUHNKE: 13 Q. In Defendant's Exhibit MY1006CT in evidence, would you turn 14 to page 1098 of that exhibit. 15 A. 1098? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Yes, I have it here. 18 Q. And referring particularly to the English translations of 19 those pages, on page 1098 does the date appear? 20 A. Yes, it does. 21 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, with the Court's 22 permission I'm going to display page 1098, the English 23 translation of page 1098 on the Elmo. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 Q. Do you see that document in front of you and on your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9213 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 monitor, Mr. Yousry? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. And does the date appear? 4 A. Yes, Tuesday, June 20, 2000. 5 Q. And in the top left-hand corner, English, does the name 6 Lynne Stewart appear? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what does that indicate to you? 9 A. That Ms. Stewart was the lawyer who was taking the call at 10 that time. 11 Q. Going down that page, there's a reference to certain Arabic 12 which reads, reading summaries of articles from various 13 newspapers after receiving approval from, English, Lynne, end 14 of English, $800. 15 Do you know what that's a reference to? 16 A. I think that's the amount of money that were sent to him 17 for his commissary. 18 Q. And then a reference, legal tapes didn't receive, and in 19 Arabic, two tapes remain to finish the Quranic dictionary. 20 What did that have to do with him? 21 A. Well, he usually asked for someone to read him Koranic 22 verses, Koranic books, you know, books about Muslim theology, 23 exegesis, things of that nature. And in this particular 24 dictionary I believe the person who was in charge of reading 25 that on a tape for Omar Abdel Rahman was almost done with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9214 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 everything except for two tapes. 2 Q. Now, the next section with the box drawn around it on 1098, 3 if I may for a minute just display the Arabic page of Exhibit 4 1098, Mr. Yousry, is what's being displayed on the Elmo right 5 now the Arabic -- your actual handwritten notes on page 1098? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. And do you see the section that I'm circling, a boxed 8 statement in English? 9 A. Yes, I do see that. 10 Q. And actually is that a mixture of English and Arabic? 11 A. Yes, I do see that. 12 Q. Would you read that. What does it say? 13 A. It says, Lynne Stewart, write it down, then translate to 14 me. 15 Q. Actually, that's all in English, isn't it? 16 A. It is all in English, yes. 17 Q. And what did that mean to you? 18 A. Well, basically we are following the same process that we 19 always do. It's -- he will say whatever he wants to say -- he 20 is the client -- and then I translate to the lawyer in charge. 21 Usually I just have to inform the lawyer that this is what's 22 being done. In this case the lawyer in charge was Ms. Stewart. 23 But that's basically how we do the work. 24 Q. And after the part that I've circled, do you see Arabic 25 numbers, one, two, etc., going down the right-hand side of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9215 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 page? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. And just -- in what direction is the Arabic language 4 written? 5 A. Right to left. 6 Q. Going back to the English translation of page 1098, is this 7 a translation of the Arabic that appears on the Arabic page of 8 your notebook on Bates number 1098? 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Ruhnke 10 for a moment, please. 11 THE COURT: Sure. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could we break for a minute. 13 THE COURT: Sure. 14 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 15 instructions. We'll break for five minutes. Don't talk about 16 the case at all. And please always remember to keep an open 17 mind. 18 (Continued on next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9216 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the issue is whether 4 Ms. Baker wants me to use the government's translations of 5 those particular pages rather than the translations that appear 6 in our translations of the notebook page. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor -- 8 MR. RUHNKE: Ms. Baker's going to object to see if 9 there are any significant differences between them. She 10 explained to me that she thought we had an understanding that I 11 would pull competing Arabic pages. I know I agreed to pull 12 some pages from the document. I don't think there's any 13 significant difference between the translations, but I'm 14 willing to see if there are. If there are significant 15 differences, we can go over the government's translations. So 16 that's what the objection was about. 17 THE COURT: OK. OK. The parties have an opportunity 18 to check. I'll take five minutes. 19 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 20 Just to put it in context, as you know, there was a 21 stipulation presented that defense translators would testify 22 that their translations were accurate. That resulted from a 23 course of negotiation. And part of the negotiation was that 24 there weren't supposed to be competing translations of the same 25 things put into evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9217 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 And I had asked Mr. Ruhnke to pull from the notebooks 2 translations of things that the government had already put 3 translations into evidence, and so that's how this issue comes 4 up. And so I need to identify which government exhibit 5 corresponds to this, and we need to look at them side by side. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, my understanding of that was 7 we weren't going to do competing transcripts. I didn't 8 understand it to extend to the notebooks -- I didn't. So it 9 doesn't matter. We'll get this resolved. 10 THE COURT: OK. And as long as we're taking five 11 minutes, if you'd go over your notes to see if this issue is 12 going to come up with respect to anything else so that you can 13 resolve it in the same -- 14 MR. RUHNKE: Only way it's going to come up, your 15 Honor, is with the rest of the pages regarding this particular 16 translation, which I think is virtually identical to the 17 government's translation. 18 THE COURT: OK. We'll just take five minutes. 19 (Recess). 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we withdraw our objection, or 22 I don't know if I stated it as an objection, but we don't 23 object to Mr. Ruhnke proceeding with his translation of this 24 document. However, I believe we now have an understanding that 25 he is going to have removed from the Exhibits MY1006CT and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9218 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 MY1007CT other documents, other translation pages that 2 constitute competing translations of government exhibit 3 translations that are already in evidence. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, that's correct. And the 5 government's agreed to supply me with a list of its competing 6 transcripts. And I'll look at that, and I'm sure I'll pull the 7 competing transcripts. 8 THE COURT: OK. Is it necessary at any time to 9 explain that to the jury? 10 MR. RUHNKE: If it is, your Honor, we'll figure out 11 something to tell the jury. It's not ripe yet, that's for 12 sure. 13 THE COURT: OK. That's fine. 14 If Mr. Yousry could take the stand. 15 There is no outstanding objection when we broke, so 16 Mr. Ruhnke can proceed. 17 (Continued on next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9219 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 3 Mr. Fletcher? 4 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 5 are still under oath. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 7 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 9 BY MR. RUHNKE: 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, before the break a moment ago, we were 11 discussing the prison telephone call that occurred on June 20, 12 2000. Do you remember that? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. And do you remember that we were discussing that you had 15 written down in your notebook some points that Sheikh Rahman 16 had dictated, correct? 17 A. Yes, correct. 18 Q. And what language did he dictate them in? 19 A. Arabic. 20 Q. And in your original notebooks, what language did you take 21 down his dictation in? 22 A. In Arabic. 23 Q. And looking at the document on the screen, which is the 24 English translation of page 1098 of the notebook, what are we 25 looking at? What do these -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9220 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Which are in evidence, your Honor. 2 Q. What do these represent? 3 A. These are points one and two that he dictated. 4 Q. How many points did he dictate that day, individual points? 5 A. I believe there are five points. 6 Q. And as we're looking at the document on the screen, which 7 is from page 1098 of your notebook, there's an arrow under the 8 name to Lynne Stewart and the words, I did not put those points 9 in order. Give it to the (E for English) legal. 10 Did you write down those words? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. What did you understand them to mean? 13 A. This is a comment by the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 14 He was saying that these points that he's dictated are in no 15 particular order. The legal people should decide what to do 16 with them. 17 Q. Whom did you understand him to be referring to by the legal 18 people? 19 A. The lawyers. 20 Q. And looking at the document that's now on the screen, I'm 21 going to read point one, and then I'm going to ask you some 22 questions about it. 23 A. Sure. 24 Q. In Arabic the word all, English, the word Lynne's, now back 25 to Arabic, statements are reliable statements. I issued them. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9221 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 She is one of the original lawyers who defended me. She worked 2 on my case from start to finish. It should be understood that 3 any statement she makes comes from me. (Add more.) Perhaps my 4 son did not know that. End of quoting from that page of the 5 document. 6 What did you understand the Sheikh to be reacting to, 7 if anything? 8 A. He was reacting to several news articles in the Middle 9 East, mainly in Al-Hayat newspaper, Asharq Al-Awsat, that Lynne 10 Stewart is not Omar Abdel Rahman's lawyer, and that she never 11 represented him, and that no one in the Sheikh's legal team in 12 Egypt knew who she was. 13 Q. And were those articles you were just referring to, what 14 were they in reaction to? 15 A. They were in reaction to the press release that Ms. Stewart 16 issued on June 13th, if I'm not mistaken. 17 Q. Now, continuing with the translation of your Arabic notes, 18 under point two, Ahmed Abdel Sattar is as far as could be from 19 what he is accused of. Then the words are struck out. What 20 does that mean? 21 A. Those were struck out either based on the direction of the 22 lawyer or based on the client to let me start over. 23 Q. Going back for a minute up to point one. There's a 24 parenthetical phrase, "add more." What did you understand that 25 to mean, as you look back on it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9222 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 A. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you. 2 Q. Do you see at the end of point one where there's a 3 parenthetical statement that says "add more"? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. And what did you understand that to mean, or do you recall 6 what that meant at the time? 7 A. Yes, I do. Actually, it was used a lot. Sometimes the 8 client dictated a few small points, and he asks the lawyer to 9 fill in the blanks. For instance, he will dictate to 10 Mr. Clark, this is what I want, you can do whatever you like 11 with this statement. And they do that. So lawyers either add 12 or take out. 13 Q. Now, going under point two, I'll just read it. Ahmed Abdel 14 Sattar is as far as could be from what he has been accused of. 15 The words "he is" are apparently struck -- stricken 16 out. 17 I swear that he is a Muslim brother who has worked 18 with me all the years the case has been ongoing. He obtained 19 permission from the federal judge to become my paralegal. I 20 trust him in everything. I gave him power of attorney, with 21 the knowledge of the American government, to pay off my debts. 22 Now, are those words -- who dictated those words to 23 you on June 20, 2000? 24 A. The client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 25 Q. And when did you write those words down? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9223 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 A. The minute he was dictating them to me. 2 Q. And what did you understand he was referring to when he 3 said in point two that Mr. Sattar was "as far as could be from 4 what he has been accused of"? 5 A. There were some press releases in the Middle East accusing 6 Mr. Sattar of being a CIA agent, a person that -- who is spying 7 on the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman; a person that is 8 getting paid by the American government. 9 Q. Now, continuing through this, I'm going to display the next 10 page from the notebook, the English language translation. And 11 that comes from notebook page 1099, is that correct? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. And does this appear to be a continuation of anything? 14 A. It is continuation of point two. 15 Q. And I'll continue, then, to read what the English is. 16 Transfer my remains and give advice to my children. I 17 declare that he speaks nothing but the truth. Those who accuse 18 him of being an agent should fear God and should not accuse 19 people falsely. They should carefully examine such statements 20 before speaking them aloud. "O ye who believe, if a wicked 21 person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth." 22 And then there's a parenthetical reference in brackets 23 after that. What's that a reference to? 24 A. This is a reference to the Surah, that this particular 25 verse was taken from. Surah in Arabic is a chapter. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9224 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And chapter of what? 2 A. In the Koran. 3 Q. And then the matter continues on to point three. 4 What has been said -- and then there's an arrow 5 pointing up, and the word said is repeated -- about Sameh Derar 6 is correct. It is wrong to say that he made this statement in 7 a personal rather than official capacity. His statements are 8 false statements. His personal capacity is in his house with 9 his family. His personal capacity relates to his personal 10 life, not public life. 11 Now, who dictated those words to you, if anyone? 12 A. The client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 13 Q. And when did you write down those words? 14 A. Immediately as he was dictating them to me. 15 Q. And contained in your notebook is there a corresponding 16 Arabic -- 17 A. Yes, there is, with the arrow and everything. 18 Q. Arabic words to that effect? 19 A. Uh-huh, yes. 20 Q. And continuing on to point -- and what did you understand 21 the reference to Sameh Derar to be? 22 A. Well, Sameh Derar is an Egyptian ambassador who used to 23 work in New York. And he issued a few statements in a radio 24 interview stating that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, or Dr. Omar 25 Abdel Rahman, as he called him, was enjoying a good treatment SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9225 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 in the United States prisons. He was enjoying a good life as a 2 payment from the American government to the services that Omar 3 Abdel Rahman rendered to the American government during the war 4 in Afghanistan. 5 Q. Going on to point four of the translation of page 1099 of 6 your notebook, I'll just read it: Despite the fact that the 7 Egyptian government continues its oppression, keeping detainees 8 in jail, killing the innocent, arbitrarily imprisoning people, 9 attacking homes where family members live and other atrocities, 10 and then there's some language that is interlined, like struck 11 out. 12 Does that language appear in Arabic in your original 13 notebook page? 14 A. Yes, it does. It's also struck out in Arabic. 15 Q. And do you know why, or do you recall why that language was 16 struck -- stricken out? 17 A. I believe it's either Ms. Stewart directed me to take this 18 out or -- and asked the client to restate it, or the client 19 maybe said, well, you know, I have a better way of saying that. 20 I believe, though, that was Ms. Stewart that asked to take this 21 out. 22 Q. And I'm going to read the language that was taken out, 23 understanding that it has a line drawn through it. I did not 24 withdraw the ceasefire initiative. Rather, I advised that the 25 other opinion, which talks of violence, should be left alone. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9226 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 Now, that language is taken out of his statement? 2 A. Yes, it was. 3 Q. And then in its place is the following: I did not withdraw 4 the ceasefire initiative. Rather, I would like to see the 5 other opinion emerging and expressing itself. 6 And is that what Sheikh Rahman dictated to you on that 7 date? 8 A. I believe after Ms. Stewart instructed me to cross this 9 out, then he rephrased his words. 10 Q. And did he tell you those things, and did you write that 11 down in the Arabic language on June 20 of the year 2000? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, are the Bates numbered pages of your notebook at this 14 point in correct numerical order? 15 A. They are. 16 Q. Would you look at it, please, and look at where point five 17 appears in this chronology. 18 A. Point five goes back to Bates number 1097. 19 Q. OK. Is this a -- the notebook that we looked at this 20 morning that the pages fell -- basically fell apart? 21 A. I believe so. I believe so. 22 Q. And do you know if the FBI may have misnumbered the pages 23 because they were not in obvious numerical order? 24 A. Yeah, I believe they might have made a mistake. If they 25 did not speak Arabic, they didn't have somebody who spoke SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9227 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 Arabic, they probably did. 2 Q. Turning then to page 1097 of the notebook, does this 3 contain a continuation of point four and a beginning of point 4 five? 5 A. Yes, it does. 6 Q. And I'll continue to read what the Sheikh -- I'm sorry. 7 Let me just lay a foundation. 8 Are these things that were stated to you by somebody 9 on June 20, 2000? 10 A. Yes, they were dictated to me by Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 11 Q. And in what language were they dictated? 12 A. Arabic. 13 Q. And in what language did you write them down? 14 A. Arabic. 15 Q. And I'll read continuing point four: I am asked that they 16 not sensor any opinion within al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, even if 17 that opinion represents a mere few. This has been the custom 18 of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya since its inception. 19 And then was there a point five also dictated under 20 the same circumstances? 21 A. Yes, there was. 22 Q. I am hurt. I am upset to hear that Rifa'i Taha was fired 23 from the movement. I do not permit such conduct. The leaders 24 (the leaders of the movement) might want to review their 25 decision and their conduct. I do not think, rather, I can SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9228 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 confirm that Rifa'i Taha would not do such things. He would 2 not hurt anyone, especially the movement, neither directly or 3 indirectly. 4 And then the next paragraph says, I doubt that this 5 statement was issued by the historic leaders of the movement. 6 They know that they are not to accuse people without evidence, 7 and they have their own ideas and opinions. 8 And is that an accurate summary of what Sheikh Rahman 9 told you on that particular day? 10 A. It's not a summary, it's word for word. 11 Q. And it's as accurate as you could as you wrote it down? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And underneath in English, on page 1097, it says, approved 14 by Lynne Stewart, and there's a double arrow, paralegal, and 15 Arabic, Ahmed Abdel Sattar. 16 And what did you understand that to mean? 17 A. The best of my recollection is that after this call was 18 done, Mr. Sattar came over to the office. And after I 19 translated that to Ms. Stewart, I gave it to Mr. Sattar in 20 order for him and whoever lawyer will, you know, discuss it and 21 decide what to do with it. Whether or not to release 22 something, not to release it, it's up to them. 23 Q. I'm going to display the Arabic side of page 1097, if I 24 can. And does that reflect what was on the English translation 25 side? Can you read those words that you have? Is that your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9229 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 handwriting? 2 A. Yes, it does. It says approved by Lynne Stewart, arrow, 3 paralegal, and then in Arabic, Ahmed Abdel Sattar. 4 Q. So the Arabic there is for Ahmed Abdel Sattar? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And then there's an Arabic word and the number 665 at the 7 bottom. What's the Arabic word? 8 A. Tapes. 9 Q. And what do tapes refer to? 10 A. I believe those are the tapes that he has in his own 11 library in prison. They give him like five at a time. So he 12 wanted actually an index of all the tapes, so like that he can 13 order by number or something. 14 Q. And did you later -- and I'm going to direct your attention 15 back to the chronology. Was there later further press coverage 16 that included discussions of the points that the Sheikh just 17 dictated that were discussed? 18 A. Yes, there were. 19 Q. And did you have discussion in a recorded prison telephone 20 call with Sheikh Rahman about the reaction to -- let me back 21 up, lay a little better foundation. 22 Did something happen with that -- those five points -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- to your knowledge? 25 What happened after the telephone call of June 20? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9230 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 A. After the prison call I went home. I mean, you know -- I 2 think I remember that Mr. Sattar came to the office, and either 3 I dictated those to him or he copied them down with the 4 approval of the lawyer. And they were supposed to discuss that 5 with either Ms. Stewart or Mr. Clark or whoever was going to be 6 in charge of that. 7 Q. Turning back now to the chronology. That's MY50, is a 8 demonstrative exhibit. I'll display the last entry on that 9 chronology, which is for June 23. 10 Is there and was there a prison call that took place 11 on June 23, meaning a call placed with regard to Sheikh Rahman? 12 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 MR. RUHNKE: It's on the exhibit, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. Rephrase. 16 BY MR. RUHNKE: 17 Q. OK. Was there a prison call that occurred on June 23, 18 2000? 19 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 20 THE COURT: What, if anything happened on June 23rd? 21 Q. What, if anything, happened on June 23rd, 2000, with regard 22 to this case? 23 A. Yes, I went down to Ms. Stewart's office, I believe, 24 because the weekly call was scheduled, took place at 25 Ms. Stewart's office. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9231 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And in regard to the call itself, what, if anything, was 2 discussed that you recall? 3 A. The articles written about the second press release were 4 basically the first thing that we mentioned. Also, I believe 5 the client had a problem with his commissary. He wasn't 6 interested in the press releases in the beginning. 7 Q. And was this call recorded or not recorded? 8 A. It was. 9 Q. And in the discussion did the Sheikh make any references to 10 the translation of what he had dictated? 11 A. Yes, he did. 12 Q. Do you recall what he said? 13 A. Yeah. He was wondering how come a few words were there 14 that he didn't dictate. 15 Q. Do you recall what the particular words were that he didn't 16 dictate that were in the press? 17 A. One of the words that got his attention was the word 18 "silence." 19 Q. And do you recall what -- the context of that word silence 20 and how it was used? 21 A. I believe in the press release, the second press release, 22 the word silence was mentioned in relation to the discussion 23 that was taking place. The Sheikh was saying, I have now 24 clarified my position, clarified my opinion, and each one 25 should just keep silence. Each one should discuss that amongst SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9232 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 themselves. And that's about it. 2 Q. Referencing the June 20 prison phone call, do you recall 3 whether or not the Sheikh said anything about silence now? 4 A. He did not. 5 Q. Do you know of your own knowledge how the phrase silence 6 got into the press release and into the press? 7 A. I don't, no. 8 Q. Did you have anything to do with that? 9 A. I don't have anything to do with any press release; not 10 with Ms. Stewart, not with Mr. Clark, not with Mr. Jabara, none 11 of the lawyers, no. 12 Q. To your knowledge after June 20th or after the month of 13 June 2000, was the peace initiative ever cancelled, modified or 14 otherwise changed? 15 A. Peace initiative was never cancelled. Peace initiative was 16 never modified. The peace initiative was in place from the 17 year 1997 up until today. As a matter of fact, 800 members 18 were released yesterday. It was on CNN last night so... 19 Q. I'm going to change gears a little bit, Mr. Yousry, and 20 change the topic to some of the conversations that were 21 intercepted on your personal phone calls, your personal home 22 telephone. 23 Did you become aware at some point that telephone 24 conversations on your home phone number had been intercepted? 25 A. After I was arrested, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9233 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Do you know approximately the period of time that calls 2 were intercepted? 3 A. I believe they started to intercept my phone, private phone 4 line in 1999, if I'm not mistaken. 5 Q. And continued up until -- 6 A. Until 2002. 7 Q. And have you looked at and reviewed various memoranda that 8 were made summarizing those phone calls? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Have you listened to tape-recordings of your personal phone 11 calls? 12 A. Well, it's kind of hard to listen to your own personal 13 calls via tape, yes. 14 Q. Do you know roughly how many of your personal phone calls 15 were intercepted by the government? 16 A. I -- I have no idea, but I live in that house with my wife, 17 my daughter, who was a teenager at the time. And teenage 18 people, you know, they talk a lot on the phone, so, I don't 19 know. 20 MS. BAKER: Objection. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 MS. BAKER: Move to strike. 23 THE COURT: Stricken. 24 BY MR. RUHNKE: 25 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you have in front of you a binder with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9234 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 exhibits in the 1700 series? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Would you turn to an exhibit marked MY1701X. 4 A. MY1701X? 5 Q. MY1701X. 6 A. OK. 7 Q. Do you have it? 8 A. 1701X, yes, I do. 9 Q. And did you listen to a full tape of a telephone call from 10 your home phone on December 3, 1999? 11 A. It was on a CD, yes. I did listen to it, yes. 12 Q. And does the translation and the exhibit marked MY1701X, 13 was the excerpt that's in 1701X also on the full telephone 14 call? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And does this fairly and accurately depict what was said 17 during that telephone call? 18 A. It does. 19 MR. RUHNKE: And the excerpt on CD. I offer 1701X. 20 THE COURT: All right. Defendant's Exhibit 1701X 21 received in evidence. 22 (Defendant's Exhibit 1701X received in evidence) 23 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, now -- is 1701X the 24 transcript? 25 MR. RUHNKE: It's an Arabic translation, your Honor, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9235 4bhesat4 Yousry - direct 1 so it itself is the evidence. 2 THE COURT: MY1701X is received in evidence. This is 3 subject to the limiting instruction with respect to the 4 recordings and transcripts. Mr. Yousry's statements are not 5 admitted for their truth but only as evidence of Mr. Yousry's 6 knowledge, intent or state of mind. And statements by others 7 are not admitted for their truth but only for their effect, if 8 any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 9 All right. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. And at this point 11 I'd ask Mr. Nepper to come forward and Mr. Fanjou come forward 12 to read the parts of Mr. Sattar and Mr. Yousry, who are the two 13 participants in the conversation. And I would ask that we 14 display 1701X for the jury. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Let me just step out of the way, your 17 Honor. Just for the record, this is a call on December 3, 18 1999, at 7:20 in the evening. Participants are Mohammed Yousry 19 and Ahmed Abdel Sattar. 20 MR. RUHNKE: 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 (Whereupon Exhibit 1701X was displayed and read to the 23 jury) 24 (Continued on next page) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9236 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. End of 1701. I now want to turn to MY-1702, which is an 3 English language conversation. 4 And your Honor, we may need a bit of logistical help 5 in breaking from one part of the transcript to the other. I 6 think we're okay. 7 Mr. Yousry, would you pick up MY-1702X? 8 A. I have it. 9 Q. Do you recall listening to this particular conversation on 10 tape or CD or DVD? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. In what language is this call? 13 A. It's in Arabic. 14 Q. Arabic and -- 15 A. And English. 16 Q. Who were the participants in the call, if you can recall? 17 A. There were three participants, Mr. Sattar, myself and Ed 18 Noguchi. 19 Q. Who is Ed Noguchi? 20 A. He had Noguchi is the TV personnel from the public TV, 21 Japan public TV, Japanese public TV. 22 Q. What language does this conversation begin in? 23 A. It begins in Arabic. 24 Q. At some point in the conversation do you speak with 25 Mr. Noguchi? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9237 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. What language do you and Mr. Noguchi converse in? 3 A. We converse in English. 4 Q. Was this conversation accurate in court in the sense that 5 it depicts what was said during the conversation? 6 A. I believe so. 7 Q. And the excerpt that is contained on 1702X and MY-1702X 8 included in the larger conversation? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I offer MY-1702X. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Ruhnke 12 again, please? 13 THE COURT: Sure. 14 (Counsel conferring) 15 MR. RUHNKE: And we also offer the audio that 16 corresponds to the English portion of 1702X. 17 THE COURT: All right. What exhibit is the audio 18 portion on? 19 MR. RUHNKE: It is on one of the DVDs that was, is the 20 subject of this morning's stipulation and I can put that on the 21 record. 22 THE COURT: You can pick it up later. I don't think 23 you offered the DVDs in evidence to the extent they are 24 reflected in the transcripts. 25 Q. Have you listened to the excerpted audio? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9238 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 A. I did. 2 Q. And does it reflect what's in this conversation? 3 A. It does. 4 MR. RUHNKE: I offer MY-1702-X, the Arabic part for 5 the truth, and the English portion as an aid to the jury. 6 THE COURT: All right. MY-1702-X received in 7 evidence. 8 It is a transcript, ladies and gentlemen. The portion 9 that corresponds to the Arabic recording is in evidence. The 10 transcript that corresponds to the English portion is an aid to 11 your listening to the English. 12 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-1702-X received in evidence) 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I would ask -- 14 THE COURT: And it is subject to the same limiting 15 instruction that I have given you with respect to the other 16 recordings and transcripts. 17 Mr. Yousry's statements are not admitted for their 18 truth but only as evidence of his knowledge, intent or state of 19 mind. And statements by others are not admitted for their 20 truth but only for their effect, if any, on Mr. Yousry's 21 knowledge, intent or state of mind. 22 MS. BAKER: Your Honor -- oh, I'm sorry. 23 THE COURT: And ladies and gentlemen, there are a 24 series of transcripts in this series, MY-1701 through MY-1730. 25 All of them are subject to the same limiting instruction that I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9239 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 just gave you. I may or may not repeat that for each of the 2 recordings and transcripts, but each of them is subject to that 3 same limiting instruction -- that Mr. Yousry's statements are 4 not admitted for their truth but only as evidence of his 5 knowledge, intent or state of mind, and statements by others 6 are not admitted for their truth but only for their effect, if 7 any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 8 MS. BAKER: It is unclear to me whether an excerpted 9 copy of the audio file has also been offered and, if so, what 10 that exhibit number is. 11 THE COURT: This is a convenient time for us to break. 12 We will take 10 minutes. We will probably -- it is a little 13 after 3:00, so we may well have one more break this afternoon. 14 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk 15 about the case. Always remember to keep an open mind. 16 All rise, please. 17 (Continued on next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9240 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Judge. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: Please, be seated. 6 I called the break because it wasn't clear to me if 7 you were going to play the audio or not and have the jury 8 follow along with the transcript, which was the first question 9 I had. 10 The second question I had was I realize there was a 11 stipulation this morning but I hadn't recalled that the CDs or 12 DVDs were actually offered and admitted in evidence. 13 And if the intent was to offer those as they 14 correspond to the transcripts, I thought that this might be a 15 convenient time to break and deal with that issue and that 16 offer. 17 MR. RUHNKE: That's fine, your Honor. We will offer 18 it that way. 19 We do have an excerpted audio, however the excerpt was 20 not prepared to specifications, so we are going to have to redo 21 the excerpted audio. But we are going to play just the portion 22 that corresponds to the transcript that is before the jury. 23 Because we have the entire audio -- we attempted to 24 have the excerpt made, the technicians making it didn't do it 25 exactly right so we have to have that redone. But right now we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9241 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 have the audio cued up to play only excerpts. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if I might. I would put a 3 question to Mr. Ruhnke through the Court which I think might 4 make this all a little more clear. 5 THE COURT: No, I am going to take a break and you can 6 discuss it. 7 MS. BAKER: We've discussed it already, I just want to 8 make sure on the record -- 9 THE COURT: But then why do you have to pose a 10 question to Mr. Ruhnke through me? 11 MS. BAKER: Okay, I won't. 12 The government doesn't object to the use, for now, of 13 the full audio with the understanding that an excerpted copy of 14 the audio will later be supplied and admitted. 15 In other words, the excerpting of the audio was 16 negotiated between the parties and it's fine for the full audio 17 to be played right now, only the relevant parts of it, with the 18 understanding that an excerpted one will be supplied later. 19 The audio does need to be played because most of this 20 call is in English, it is only the small part at the beginning 21 that's in Arabic. 22 THE COURT: What's the portion that's excerpted? 23 MR. RUHNKE: There is a much longer -- the transcript 24 has the excerpted version in it, it is excerpted from the 25 longer transcript of a primarily English call, as Ms. Baker SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9242 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 says, pursuant to discussions we excerpted. Sometimes the 2 government wanted more put in, sometimes they didn't want more 3 put it in. This reflects the agreement of the parties as to 4 what is appropriate to play. 5 THE COURT: And so, the audio can be played and 6 everyone knows where it is cued up. And even though it is the 7 full audio, only the excerpt is going to be played for the jury 8 that corresponds to the transcript. 9 MR. RUHNKE: That's exactly right. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. RUHNKE: And we will provide a correct excerpted 12 underlying CD at the appropriate time. 13 THE COURT: Okay. But are you going to use this brief 14 break also to offer -- or after the jury comes back, whatever 15 CDs and DVDs you want to offer? 16 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. Assuming they're in 17 court, which I am told they are, I will offer them as they 18 correspond to the excerpted transcripts that the jury will be 19 listening to. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I do need to ask my question 21 because I think there is a gap in the foundation at this point. 22 The stipulation that was read this morning spoke to 23 the authenticity of certain DVDs prepared by the FBI that we 24 gave to Mr. Ruhnke. It is my understanding that but for maybe 25 this one call where they're going to temporarily play from the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9243 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 full audio perhaps on the disk that we gave them, that for all 2 of the other calls new disks of some kind, CDs or DVDs have 3 been prepared by someone working for Mr. Ruhnke which contain 4 excerpted copies of the audio. 5 And it's fine that they're excerpted, they're a result 6 of Rule 106 negotiations between the parties. But there needs 7 to be that little additional piece of foundation for each one 8 of the excerpted audios to say, essentially, that it was 9 excerpted from what the government supplied, or by Mr. Yousry 10 saying that it is an accurate excerpted recording of a call 11 that he had. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we were not intending to 13 prepare an excerpted audio for each of these small 14 conversations but to offer only those portions that correspond 15 to the transcripts. 16 THE COURT: I thought you were offering, under the 17 stipulation, the CDs and DVDs provided by the government. 18 MR. RUHNKE: That's what we are offering. Yes, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: To the extent that they correspond to the 21 excerpted transcripts. 22 MR. RUHNKE: When it comes to the English calls, your 23 Honor, English language conversations, yes, we are preparing 24 and offering excerpted DVDs because those become the evidence. 25 It doesn't seem to make any sense to offer, to produce SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9244 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 excerpted Arabic conversations that the jury is never going to 2 hear because the evidence is the transcripts and translated 3 transcripts. 4 So we are preparing excerpts of the English 5 conversations. There are several of those, not a ton of them. 6 THE COURT: But the government's point was they have 7 no problem with the authenticity of the DVDs and CDs that they 8 provided to you and that are reflected in the stipulation. And 9 if you want to offer those DVDs and CDs, to the extent that 10 they correspond to the excerpted transcripts, that's fine. 11 If what you are offering was your own CDs made from 12 those DVDs or CDs, there is a gap in the foundation testimony 13 with respect to making those CDs, so. 14 MR. RUHNKE: I will simply ask Mr. Yousry if he has 15 listened to the excerpt as well and does it fairly and 16 accurately replicate what is on the original recording. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MS. BAKER: We agree that that would be a sufficient 19 foundation. And if Mr. Ruhnke wishes to do it call by call as 20 he gets to it, that's fine. 21 Obviously then we would ask -- and I think where we 22 left off on this last one, 1702 -- is that then at that point 23 for an English call, some version of an audio needs to be 24 offered and admitted before it can be played to the jury. 25 So I'm just trying to make sure that that loop is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9245 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 closed on each call. 2 MR. RUHNKE: And we are going to do that because that 3 is the actual evidence of the calls in those situations. And 4 perhaps we can work out a stipulation that will solve that 5 problem too. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Take five minutes. 7 (Recess) 8 MR. RUHNKE: We are ready to proceed, your Honor. I 9 think we are going to work out a stipulation that will solve 10 the problem by tomorrow morning and -- at least I'm cautiously 11 optimistic that we will be able to. 12 I will offer these CDs at this point pursuant to the 13 stipulation, as discussed to the extent they correspond with 14 the excerpted transcripts conversations that will be played in 15 evidence. 16 THE COURT: And those are the government's CDs? 17 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 18 MS. BAKER: Have those been given exhibit numbers, 19 Mr. Ruhnke? 20 MR. RUHNKE: They say Defense 2 and Defense 4 on them. 21 I was going to offer them in the exact form they were 22 identified in the stipulation. 23 THE COURT: Okay. I was going to mention to the 24 parties that one of these days they should provide me with an 25 updated master exhibit list. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9246 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay, let's bring in the jury. 3 The stipulation that you will work out you will work 4 out tonight? 5 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 6 Your Honor, so your Honor knows how we intend to 7 proceed, the initial part of the conversation is Arabic, it 8 lasts for about 30 seconds in Arabic, we are going to let the 9 Arabic run with the transcript and then it changes to English 10 when Mr. Yousry begins speaking with Mr. Noguchi. And I think 11 the instruction would be the Arabic parts, the translation on 12 the transcript and then the rest of the transcript is an aid. 13 THE COURT: Is someone going to read the -- 14 MR. RUHNKE: We were planning to have it read. We 15 were going to have it played in the Arabic. It is pretty easy 16 to follow, it is only, like, 20 seconds of Arabic that leads 17 into the conversation. 18 THE COURT: It will be scrolled? 19 MR. RUHNKE: It will be scrolled; yes, your Honor. 20 (Continued on next page) 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9247 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. 3 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 4 Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 6 are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 10 Pursuant to the stipulation which was read this 11 morning which is Defendant's Exhibit MY-Stip 5, I offer, at 12 this time, two CDs, one designated Defense 2_8539; one 13 designated Defense_4, bearing the date 10/18/04. 14 To the extent these correspond with the underlying 15 conversations will be offered into evidence. 16 THE COURT: All right. Those CDs are, those defense 17 exhibits are received in evidence, to the extent indicated. 18 (Defendant's Exhibit Defense 2_8539 received in 19 evidence) 20 (Defendant's Exhibit Defense_4 received in evidence) 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. RUHNKE: At this point, your Honor, we would like 23 to play to the jury and display a transcript of MY-1702X, which 24 is a combination Arabic English phone call. We intend to let 25 the Arabic run, because it only occupies 20 seconds and then SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9248 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 the conversation switches to English. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, the transcript is in evidence as 4 it corresponds to the Arabic portion and an aid to your 5 listening to the recording of the English portion. 6 And to the extent that I didn't already say it, that 7 MY-1702X is admitted in evidence, for the Arabic portion and as 8 an aid to the jury for the English portion. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just to complete the way this 10 is going to be played, the last two or three pages are in 11 Arabic and we will read that transcript as well as display it 12 to the jury. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. RUHNKE: We will stop the audio at that point and 15 read and display it. 16 THE COURT: Do you want the jurors to put on their 17 headphones now? 18 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, put on your 20 headphones. 21 MR. RUHNKE: We will display the transcript. 22 THE COURT: Did you want to identify the date? 23 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. The date is January 3, 24 2000, 11:11 a.m. 25 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1702X, in evidence, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9249 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 was displayed and played for the jury) 2 MR. RUHNKE: Can we stop now the audio from being 3 played and if Mr. Nepper and Mr. Fanjul will come up and read 4 the parts of Mr. Noguchi and Mr. Sattar for the balance of the 5 conversation. 6 THE COURT: All right. And remember to turn the 7 headphones off, ladies and gentlemen. 8 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1702-X, in 9 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 10 BY MR. RUHNKE: 11 Q. Mr. Yousry, does this particular conversation illustrate 12 anything with regard to your working relationship with the 13 attorneys and the SAMs? 14 A. Yes, precisely. Everything has to go through the lawyers 15 and if the lawyers approve the stuff first, then they'll let me 16 know what portion of the questions were approved, what portions 17 of the questions were not approved, and then I will translate 18 that to the client and then he will dictate his answer the same 19 day or maybe next call, and I will translate the answer back to 20 the lawyers. And if they see the answers contain things that 21 they do not approve of, they take it out and they make the 22 contact back to the media. 23 That's usually how it works with everyone; Mr. Clark, 24 Mr. Jabara, Ms. Stewart. All the lawyers. 25 Q. I'm going to direct your attention now to the next exhibit SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9250 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 in the book which is MY-1703X. Would you look at that for me, 2 please? 3 A. Yes, I see that. 4 Q. Do you have that? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. Have you listened to the English language conversation 7 contained in 1703X? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. Have you listened to it in its full version? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. Have you listened to it in its excerpted version? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. And, does the full version and the excerpted versions both 14 accurately depict what took place during that conversation? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And have you listened to the audio portion of the excerpted 17 conversation? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. And is that an accurate depiction of that excerpt? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we offer MY-1703-X as an aid 22 to the jury. Since it is an English language call. 23 We offer the excerpted conversation, which we will 24 produce separately on CDs, and ask that 1703X -- I'm sorry, 25 that this excerpt, the audio corresponding, be played for the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9251 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 jury at this time and the transcript displayed on the screen. 2 THE COURT: What will the excerpted audio -- is there 3 an exhibit number for that? 4 MR. RUHNKE: It would be 1703-XA, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. MY-1703-X received as an aid 6 to the jury. MY-1703-XA received in evidence. 7 (Defendant's Exhibits MY-1703-X and MY-1703-XA 8 received in evidence) 9 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this time we ask that 10 1703A be played. 11 THE COURT: 1703-XA? 12 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, sir. 13 THE COURT: Do you want the jurors to put on their 14 headphones? 15 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Could I stop you just for a moment before 17 you start? Could you, just for the jurors? 18 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, this is a call that's dated January 19 3, 2000, same date as the earlier call displayed. This call is 20 at 10:43 p.m. 21 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 22 MR. RUHNKE: Recorded on Mr. Yousry's home telephone. 23 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1703-XA, in 24 evidence, was displayed and played for the jury) 25 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, you can take your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9252 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 headsets off and turn them off. 2 BY MR. RUHNKE: 3 Q. Did you then have additional conversation with Mr. Noguchi 4 about his attempts to answer some questions from Sheikh Rahman? 5 A. I believe in March of 2000, I think. 6 Q. And was there a phone call with Sheikh Rahman between 7 Mr. Noguchi's call on January 3 and the following call from 8 Mr. Noguchi in March of 2000? 9 A. There were several calls, yes. 10 Q. Do you know from your own recollection whether or not his 11 questions were discussed by the attorneys during these calls? 12 A. Yes, they were. 13 Q. Did the attorneys approve asking some of the questions? 14 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 Q. What did the attorneys ask Sheikh Rahman during these 17 several phone calls that's relevant to this line of 18 questioning? 19 A. The questions were approved by Mr. Clark. Mr. Noguchi 20 faxed them, I believe, three questions. I believe they are the 21 same ones that told me. And Mr. Clark approved, I believe, a 22 couple of them, or he added one and I asked the Sheikh, as 23 instructed by Mr. Clark, and the Sheikh replied. 24 Some of the answers, I believe, were taken out and 25 that's about it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9253 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And did you have a follow up conversation with Mr. Noguchi 2 at any time about this effort to get questions answered? 3 A. Yes. I believe he called when he came back from Minnesota. 4 Q. Would you look at Defendant's Exhibit MY-1704X, which 5 should be the next one in your binder? 6 A. Yes, I have it. 7 Q. Have you listened to the tape recording or CD recording of 8 the full transcript of the conversation of this particular 9 date? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. And did the full CD contain the full conversation? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Did it look like it was fairly accurate when you reported 14 it? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. Did you look at the reporting? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did the excerpt contain the excerpt? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Did the excerpt contain an accurate excerpt? 21 A. I believe so, yes. 22 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this point I would offer 23 MY-1704-X and the underlying audio file, which would be 24 1704-XA, which is -- and this is an English language 25 conversation. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9254 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. No objection. 2 MY-1704-X is received as an aid to the jury's 3 listening to the underlying recording; 1704-XA, which is 4 received in evidence. 5 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-1704-X and 1704-XA received in 6 evidence) 7 MS. BAKER: At this time, your Honor, I'm going to ask 8 that the transcript be displayed and the audio file played as 9 soon as I am able to set the scene and the date for the call. 10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, as I told you, this 11 whole series of transcripts and recording is subject to the 12 same limiting instruction, okay? 13 MR. RUHNKE: If we can display the transcript. Just 14 to set the scene, this is a call of March 1, 2000, at 15 approximately 3:30 in the afternoon, and it's recorded on 16 Mr. Yousry's home telephone. 17 May the jurors put their headphones on, with the 18 Court's permission? 19 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, put your headphones 20 on, turn them on. 21 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1704X, in evidence, 22 was displayed and played for the jury) 23 BY MR. RUHNKE: 24 Q. Mr. Yousry, the conversation that we just heard played in 25 English, how did the process work? That the questions that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9255 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 were posed by Mr. Noguchi in January got responded to in part 2 in March; what happened to get from the questions being asked 3 in January to your reply to him in March? 4 A. As I recall it, he called me and he gave me those questions 5 but I asked him to fax the questions to the lawyers. I believe 6 he did. 7 When I went over Mr. Clark approved, as we saw this 8 morning, my notebook, he approved three questions and he 9 approved the Sheikh would dictate answers to these questions. 10 The client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, did dictate the 11 answers to the questions. I translated those questions to 12 Mr. Clark. Mr. Clark advised that some parts should be taken 13 out. They were taken out and I did not contact Mr. Noguchi. I 14 assumed that he was going to call Mr. Clark or Mr. Jabara since 15 he had the English answer to that. But he called me. We had 16 the working relationship, Mr. Noguchi, and I, so... 17 Q. Just as an aside, have you and Mr. Noguchi worked on 18 projects together? 19 A. Yes, we did. 20 Q. What kind of projects? 21 A. Translation projects. 22 Mr. Noguchi was doing a series for the Japanese 23 educational TV on Islam, on Muslim -- Muslim heritage, so he 24 interviewed people in England, Switzerland, what have you. 25 Most of the interviews he conducted were done through SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9256 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 interpreters that he hired there. But before he put the whole 2 project together, he wanted me to go over all that translation. 3 And Mr. Noguchi used to bring me transcripts, tapes, audio 4 tapes to work on. 5 So, I know him. We have a working relationship. 6 Q. And that's nothing to do with Sheikh Rahman's case? 7 A. No, nothing to do with Sheikh Rahman's case whatsoever. 8 Q. If you pick up your notebook, in this one particularly, 9 MY-1704-CT, turn to Bates Number 727. 10 A. 727? 11 Q. 727. 12 A. I have it. 13 Q. And what is there on page 0727? 14 A. The page 727 contains three questions approved by 15 Mr. Ramsey Clark for Japanese public TV. 16 Q. Is there -- 17 A. Also -- 18 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 19 A. In addition, it contains some of the answers that, of these 20 questions. 21 Q. And on this page in your notebook are the questions and 22 answers contained? 23 A. Page 727, continues on to page 728. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with the Court's permission, 25 I would like to display, initially, the Arabic version of page SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9257 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 0727, through the Elmo. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, looking at page 0727 from your notebook, 4 first of all, is some English writing across the top of the 5 notebook page? 6 A. Yes. This is my handwriting. It says approved by 7 Mr. Clark for Japanese public TV. 8 Q. Then just below that to the right of the Arabic writing we 9 see Arabic numbers 1, 2 and 3? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And then some Arabic writing to the left of each of those. 12 What does the Arabic writing represent? 13 A. It represents the three questions that were faxed to 14 Mr. Clark, I believe. 15 Q. And if we look on page -- further down this page, and I 16 will display the English portion of it -- I am a hundred 17 percent confident the government never offered this page -- on 18 page 727. 19 If I may display the English side of it, your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Q. What is shown on the English side of 0727? 22 A. It represents the translation of the Arabic sign. We have 23 the English approved by Mr. Ramsey Clark on top, for Japanese 24 public TV, and then the three questions. And then come parts 25 of the answer. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9258 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Did Mr. Clark approve, to your knowledge, any question 2 about where his son was? 3 A. No, I don't think he did. No. 4 Q. And continuing down the English side of page 0727, what 5 appears there? 6 A. The answers to question 1 and part of the answer to 7 question 2. 8 Q. Continuing on to the next page of the paragraph, which is 9 0728, will you look at that for me, please? 10 A. Yes, I am. 11 Q. What appears on that page? 12 A. The answer to question number 3. 13 Q. The Arabic portion of -- 14 A. Number 3. Even though it doesn't have number 3 there. 15 Q. What is being written down on page 0728 of your notebooks? 16 A. It is the answer that was dictated to me by the client 17 after it was approved by Mr. Ramsey Clark. 18 Q. And going on now to the English side of this document -- 19 let me get this set up right, what is contained on the English 20 side of your notebook page 0728? 21 A. It contains the answer to question number 3. 22 Q. And -- 23 A. I'm sorry. 24 Q. How do those answers compare with the information that you 25 provided to Mr. Noguchi? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9259 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 A. I summarized it to him. And he said summary would be fine, 2 so. But they're accurate. The summaries are accurate. 3 Q. Mr. Yousry, next I am going to direct you in the notebook 4 in front of you to MY-1705-X. Would you turn to that page? 5 A. Exhibit 1705? 6 Q. Exhibit MY-1705-X, that's correct. 7 A. Yes, I do have it. 8 Q. Have you listened to the original audio of that 9 conversation? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. Have you listened to the entire audio? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. Does it fairly and accurately capture what you said? 14 A. Yes, it does. 15 Q. And what the other parties said? 16 A. Yes, it does. 17 Q. Have you listened to the excerpt? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. Is the excerpt that's contained in MY-1705-X something that 20 appeared in the entire conversation? 21 A. Yes, it does. 22 Q. Is that summarized and translated on 1705X? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this time I offer 25 MY-1705-X, which is an Arabic conversation which we would like SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9260 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 to read to the jury. Mr. Nepper would take the role of 2 Mr. Yousry, I would take the role of the other party to the 3 conversation. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 Is there a corresponding audio? 6 MR. RUHNKE: Corresponding audio is one of the audios 7 on the larger CDs. This is not an English language 8 conversation, so there is no excerpt that is going to be 9 individually identified. 10 THE COURT: All right. No objection. MY-1705-X, 11 received in evidence. 12 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-1705-X received in evidence) 13 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a transcript 14 of an Arabic conversation so the transcript is in evidence and 15 it's subject to my instructions with respect to all of these 16 limiting instructions with respect to all of these recordings. 17 MR. RUHNKE: May we display the transcript, your 18 Honor? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 BY MR. RUHNKE: 21 Q. First of all, do you see the date of this particular 22 conversation, Mr. Yousry? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. What date is it? 25 A. March 19, 2000. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9261 4BH5SAT5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And, who is Nasser Ahmed Al-Humusani? 2 A. Nasser Ahmed Al-Humusani used to be a paralegal for Sheikh 3 Omar Abdel Rahman. 4 Q. Is this a call that you placed or a call that came into 5 your home, if you can recall? 6 A. I believe it is an incoming call. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this time we would like to 8 read the excerpt, if we may. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1705-X, in 11 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 12 (Continued on next page) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9262 4bhesat6 1 MR. RUHNKE: And that's the end of that particular 2 call, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Do you want me to begin another call? 5 It's 4:26. Do you want me to begin another call or should 6 we -- 7 THE COURT: I have -- it's around 4:25. OK. The 8 clocks are not all synchronized. It's around 4:25 so we'll 9 break for the day. 10 Ladies and gentlemen, it's very important that you 11 follow all of my instructions very carefully. Please, please, 12 don't talk about this case at all, among yourselves or with 13 anyone else when you go home this evening. 14 Please, always remember to keep an open mind until 15 you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on 16 the law and you've gone to the jury room to begin your 17 deliberations. Don't look at or listen to anything to do with 18 the case. If you should see or hear something inadvertently, 19 please, simply turn away. 20 Always remember to keep an open mind until you've 21 heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law and 22 you've gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 23 Fairness and justice requires that you do that. 24 With that, have a very good evening. And I look 25 forward to seeing you tomorrow morning at 9:30. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9263 4bhesat6 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Anything further at this time? 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, there was one very small 4 technical issue that I realized after the fact. 5 Mr. Ruhnke, in part in response to issues that I 6 raised about foundation and so on, offered into evidence the 7 two CDs that are marked as Defense 2 and Defense 4. And at the 8 time he did that, I wasn't looking at the stipulation that 9 identified which audios are on those disks. 10 Now that I've looked back at it, I realize that 11 Defense 4 contains only MY1729 and MY1730, as to which the 12 Court sustained the government's objections. So, therefore, we 13 ask that Defense 4 be stricken from evidence. I don't believe 14 that that needs to be told to the jury. 15 MR. RUHNKE: I agree, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. Defendant's 4 is stricken. 17 Thank you. 18 Anything further? 19 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, with respect to the 20 outstanding issues concerning Mr. Sattar's defense case, I have 21 conferred with Mr. Morvillo and we agree that absent any 22 questions by the Court, we would have no further argument than 23 what are contained in our various submissions to the Court. 24 THE COURT: I get the point. I will not require you 25 to stay after 2:00 tomorrow. And -- no, no, I don't -- I mean, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9264 4bhesat6 1 I -- with all seriousness, and I've gone over the submission 2 and then I've watched the videos. And I will think about what 3 the parties have put before me. And if I think that any 4 further question would be useful, I can as easily do that at 5 the end of one of the days before you begin your case as 6 tomorrow. So it's not -- it is not a problem for me. 7 MR. FALLICK: OK. 8 THE COURT: Is there -- are there any estimates with 9 respect to time that the parties want to give me? 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I hope to complete 11 Mr. Yousry's direct examination by 2:00 tomorrow. 12 THE COURT: OK. 13 MR. RUHNKE: But I had hoped John Kerry would be 14 elected also. 15 THE COURT: All right. Please be here at 9:00 16 tomorrow. And hopefully we'll begin on time at 9:30 with the 17 jury. 18 Anything else for me? If not, have a good evening. 19 (Adjourned to Thursday, November 18, 2004, at 20 9:00 a.m.) 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9265 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 MOHAMMED YOUSRY 4 Direct By Mr. Ruhnke . . . . . . . . . . . . 9111 5 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS 6 Exhibit No. Received 7 MY-516 - MY-522 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9128 8 MY-516T - MY-522T . . . . . . . . . . . . 9128 9 MY1007 and MY1007CT . . . . . . . . . . . 9151 10 MY500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9176 11 MY-Stip- 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9188 12 MY-1716 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9192 13 MY-1214-X1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9194 14 MY-1216-X5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9198 15 1701X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9234 16 MY-1702-X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9238 17 Defense 2_8539 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9247 18 MY-1703-X and MY-1703-XA . . . . . . . . 9251 19 MY-1704-X and 1704-XA . . . . . . . . . . 9254 20 MY-1705-X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9260 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300