9108 4BH5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 17, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9109 4BH5SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, all. Please, be seated. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Good morning, your Honor. Just one issue 4 before we begin, unless the Court has something it wishes to 5 take up. 6 My client asked me if he could be relieved from 7 reading his part between testifying and reading all the 8 tapes -- we intend to read a lot of transcripts today -- 9 whether Mr. Stern could read his part. The government objects 10 to Mr. Stern reading Mr. Yousry's part, and I'm not sure I 11 understand the basis for the objection. 12 THE COURT: The basis is consistency. I've previously 13 ruled in response to the defense objections that those people 14 with speaking parts in the trial, the lawyers, should not read 15 the parts in the transcript that reflect statements by any of 16 the defendants in order to avoid any confusion. 17 It originally arose over the defense objection having 18 prosecutors read statements by the defendants and I -- indeed 19 it was a broader objection than that, it was to prevent the 20 prosecutors from reading any of the transcripts. I didn't go 21 that far but I did think that it was a fair objection to avoid 22 any possible confusion in the jury's mind between the 23 defendants and anyone who would be reading a part of the 24 defendants' prior statements who would otherwise be talking to 25 the jury. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9110 4BH5SAT1 1 It's not as much of a problem when defense counsel 2 reads for the defendant, but it is still subject to the same 3 objection. And so, for fairness and consistency, any of the 4 statements by the defendants should be read only by the 5 defendants or someone who is otherwise not talking to the jury. 6 So, I have no problem at all if Mr. Yousry does not 7 wish to, in the transcripts, read his part, so long as they're 8 not read by someone else who would otherwise be talking to the 9 jury. 10 MR. RUHNKE: I understand, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: And sometimes if you are going to be 12 reading a lot of transcripts, transcripts can get kind of long. 13 And if at any point you wish a stretch break or any other pause 14 in the transcripts, just let me know and I'm perfectly prepared 15 to do that or to call a break. Just let me know. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else? 18 MR. RUHNKE: No. We're ready to proceed. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 If Mr. Yousry could take the stand. 21 (Witness resumes the stand) 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9111 4BH5SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 MR. RUHNKE: May we proceed, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 4 THE JURY: Good morning. 5 THE COURT: It is good to see you all. 6 All right. 7 MR. RUHNKE: May we proceed, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: Hold on, one moment. One moment. 9 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 10 Mr. Fletcher? 11 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 12 you are still under oath. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 14 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, continued. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 17 DIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. RUHNKE: 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, toward the end of yesterday's session we were 20 talking about contact you had had with Agent Kimberly Whittle 21 and also Detective Napoli of the FBI's task force in the wake 22 of the 9/11 attacks on the United States. 23 Do you recall those questions? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. After you were arrested, did there come a time when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9112 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 documents associated with the case were turned over to the 2 defense? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Among the documents turned over, were there documents 5 relating to those post-9/11 interviews? 6 A. Yes, there were. 7 Q. I'm going to ask you just to look at the notebook in front 8 of you containing a series of exhibits marked 1300. Don't read 9 from the exhibits, don't try to discuss the exhibits beyond 10 what they are. 11 So, would you take a moment and look at them? In 12 broad terms, what is contained in the series of exhibits 1300 13 through 1312? 14 A. I believe these are notes of the interviews I conducted 15 with the FBI. 16 Q. And does looking at those memorandum of the interviews that 17 you gave to the FBI during this period of time help you refresh 18 your recollection about approximately how many contacts you had 19 with the agents? Approximately? It may not be exact. 20 A. 12, 15 times, maybe. I don't remember. 21 Q. Does that help you refresh your recollection? 22 A. Probably. 23 Q. And your best recollection is approximately how many 24 interviews with the FBI? 25 A. I thought there were a little bit more than that but that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9113 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 sounds about right; 12, 15 times, maybe. 2 Q. What subject, generally, was Agent Whittle and Detective 3 Napoli inquiring about? Just in very general terms, what did 4 you discuss with them? 5 A. Basically they wanted to make sure that there was nothing 6 wrong going on. 7 Q. Did you discuss the weekly telephone calls with Sheikh 8 Rahman? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. Did you believe that you were doing anything improper, in 11 your own state of mind at that time; that there was anything 12 improper going on with those telephone calls? 13 A. I was confident that the lawyers were not doing anything 14 wrong, I was not doing anything wrong. There was nothing wrong 15 going on. Everything was above board. I was just glad to 16 help, to put this matter to rest. 17 Q. Did you tell the truth, to the best of your ability, to 18 Agent Whittle and Detective Napoli about everything they asked 19 about? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. Sir, yesterday afternoon we also discussed or began to 22 discuss two incidents at the Metropolitan Correctional Center 23 here in New York City, attached to this building, where 24 sessions with Sheikh Rahman were interrupted by prison guards. 25 Do you recall that testimony? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9114 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Would you describe for us, again, the first time that 3 occurred and what you recall happening? 4 A. I recall the first time a guard came in and asked me to 5 leave the cell, the room we were having the meeting in. And I 6 did. I stepped outside. 7 The guard had a conversation with Ms. Stewart and 8 later on they called me back in, I believe a lieutenant or a 9 lieutenant came down or something, and then they allowed me 10 back in. 11 Q. How long was the interview interrupted for? 12 A. More than half an hour. 13 We had to wait for the lieutenant to come in to decide 14 what to do. 15 Q. And, offering this only for your own state of mind, what 16 did Ms. Stewart tell you later on had been the problem? 17 A. Well, she told me that the guards told her that I was 18 having a private conversation with the Sheikh, since I was just 19 talk talking to him for a long time, so he thought I was not 20 the interpreter. 21 Q. And what was actually going on during that interview that 22 appeared to be a private conversation? 23 A. I was asked to read him several things. And just to save 24 time, we developed this mechanism with this kind of technique 25 because lawyers were pressed for time. And I had to do that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9115 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 stuff for them in a much efficient way -- much more efficient 2 way. 3 Q. Was there a second time while the Sheikh was housed at the 4 Metropolitan Correctional Center that a similar thing occurred? 5 A. Yes, I do remember a second time. Yes. 6 Q. Would you describe what happened the second time? 7 A. Well, this time I believe the guard asked me to leave the 8 premises. He asked me to go downstairs. I waited downstairs 9 for about 40, 45 minutes. 10 Q. Let me interrupt you for just a moment. 11 What were you doing at the jail on that date? 12 A. I was going over some material with the client, Sheikh Omar 13 Abdel Rahman, at the time. 14 Q. And who else was in the room? 15 A. And Ms. Lynne Stewart. 16 Q. The guard asked you to remain downstairs? 17 A. I was discussing with the Sheikh, I believe one of the 18 sermons, one of the tapes that we went over to the defense by 19 the government. 20 Q. When you said went downstairs, where were you in this 21 building when the interruption occurred? 22 A. When the interruption occurred it was upstairs in 9 South. 23 Q. That's the ninth floor of the Metropolitan Correctional 24 Center? 25 A. Yes. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9116 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. When you went downstairs, did you have to leave a locked 2 unit at the Metropolitan Correctional Center? 3 A. I waited in the reception area. I thought that Ms. Stewart 4 will come down shortly or somebody will come and tell me what's 5 going on. So, I just waited. 6 Q. How long was that visit interrupted? 7 A. I believe 45 minutes at least I was waiting downstairs. 8 Q. And when you got -- did there come a time when you went 9 back upstairs and you continued the interview? 10 A. Yes. A captain came down, actually -- 11 Q. A captain came down to see you? 12 A. Yes. He asked to see the material that I have, I showed 13 him the tapes, they were all marked U.S. Attorney's office and 14 stuff. And he kind of said, you can go up now. So, I just 15 went back up. 16 Q. We have seen tapes and videotapes and we have heard audio 17 tapes of what can only be described as pretending to interpret 18 a conversation when that was going on; do you understand what I 19 am talking about? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Why did that happen? 22 A. As I said, this technique or this way of doing things 23 developed over a long period of time. It was much more 24 efficient for us to do it this way. When I say "us" I mean me 25 and the lawyer in charge. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9117 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 All the lawyers were adapting that technique, it was 2 not only Ms. Stewart. I did that with Mr. Clark, Mr. Jabara, 3 who spoke Arabic, actually, because it was much easier for me 4 to do that with Mr. Jabara around. 5 And that's the way we did it. 6 Q. Was there a concern ever expressed about that the guards 7 would be overhearing what was being stated? 8 A. Yes, of course. All lawyers are concerned about that. 9 Q. Different lawyers have different levels of concern about 10 being overheard during visits? 11 A. Yes. Of course. 12 Q. Who seemed to be the least concerned? 13 A. The least concerned was Mr. Clark. 14 Usually Mr. Clark would say to the guard, fellows, 15 just move back. Mr. Clark is Mr. Clark, so. 16 Q. And who seemed to be the most concerned? 17 A. The most concerned, the most sensitive person was Ms. Lynne 18 Stewart. 19 MR. RUHNKE: Can we have displayed on the screen 20 Government Exhibit 363A, please? 21 THE COURT: In evidence? Government Exhibit 363A in 22 evidence? 23 MR. RUHNKE: In evidence, yes. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 Q. Do you remember this exhibit, Mr. Yousry? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9118 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Do you remember early in the case someone from Rochester 3 came to testify and said they took a picture of the visit room? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. And do you remember that during the cross-examination a 6 table representing the round table was drawn in and the witness 7 said that's approximately where the table was? 8 Do you remember that? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. Is that true? Is the hand drawn table in the location 11 where it approximately was when you were having visits? 12 A. Yes. About right. 13 Q. And where did you sit during the visits? 14 A. I would be sitting -- my back would be facing the jury box, 15 so I would be facing the window. 16 Q. I am just going to touch the screen. Where that arrow is 17 shown, who would be sitting there? 18 A. That's me. 19 Q. And just, by description, where did Ms. Stewart generally 20 sit? 21 A. To the left. 22 Q. To the left meaning to the left as you go around the table? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Touching an arrow, would that be approximately where she 25 sat? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9119 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. That is approximately where Ms. Stewart sat, yes. 2 Q. And where did the Sheikh, normally speaking, sit? 3 A. To the right. Very close to the door, actually. They had 4 to move him a little bit sometimes when they opened the door 5 because it used to hit his chair. 6 Q. Touching the screen, is that approximately where the Sheikh 7 sat during the interviews? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And, the window that is shown in this photograph, having 10 sat there, having been there during the interviews, were there 11 ever times when guards or other correction officials or other 12 prison officials would be talking in the corridor outside the 13 interview room? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you have any trouble hearing them? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Were these double-paned windows or sound proofed in any 18 way? 19 A. No, they were not. 20 Q. When you had your visits with Sheikh Rahman at Rochester, 21 first, approximately how many times did you go out to 22 Rochester, if you can recall? 23 A. At least five, I think. Five times. 24 Q. Where would the guards, correctional officers position 25 themselves while the interviews were going on? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9120 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Well, it depends on the place where the interview was 2 taking place -- the meeting was taking place. 3 In this particular incident they would be sitting 4 right outside the window. 5 Q. In this area right in here? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Were there times when guards approached right up to the 8 glass? 9 A. Yes. Sometimes actually they put their face into the 10 glass. 11 Q. Were there times when the guards appeared to be looking at 12 what was on the table? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And was that ever a subject of discussion between you and 15 Ms. Stewart? 16 A. Between me and all the lawyers who participated in meetings 17 in these particular rooms, yeah. 18 Q. And what was the concern that was expressed? 19 A. The concern was the guards might listen to our conversation 20 and our conversation should be confidential and private. And 21 we will try to ask them to either move away or we will do 22 whatever we can to keep our conversation confidential. 23 MR. RUHNKE: Can we see 366A? 24 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 363A? 25 MR. RUHNKE: 366A I asked for, I think. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9121 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: In evidence? 2 MR. RUHNKE: In evidence. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 Q. Now, looking at now, looking at 366A, is that another view 5 of that interview room where you conducted interviews of the 6 Sheikh? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And in terms of the interviews that you saw here on the 9 videotape and the February 19 or 20 visit that we heard on 10 audio tape, is that the room where the visit took place? 11 A. That is the room where the May 19th and May 20th visit took 12 place, which we saw on video. The February 19th visit took 13 place in the same room. And the February 18th visit took place 14 in the same room. But we do not have video of that. 15 Q. Did you ever see, actually, any recording of the February 16 18th or part of the February 18-19, 2000 visit? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you ever seen video of the February 18-19, 2000 visit? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 Q. Looking at this room which seems to be set up like a 21 classroom, if you see the door on the right-hand side of the 22 photograph? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. Was that the door out of the, that conference room? 25 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9122 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. Where did that door lead? 3 A. That was the only door that we were allowed to leave the 4 room through. 5 Q. And if you went out of that door and turned left, do you 6 see the area depicted outside the window? 7 A. If we turned left you have to go all the way around in 8 order to use the bathroom. That's the only reason why we 9 turned left. 10 Q. Where in that photograph -- obviously you can't see a 11 bathroom -- where in that photograph was the bathroom 12 physically situated? 13 A. The bathroom would be in the back of that back wall by the 14 three chairs, I would say. 15 There is one, two, three gray chairs over there, that 16 would be the back of the bathroom. 17 Q. Are you indicating this wall area through here? 18 A. Yes, I am. Yes. 19 Q. And, if you went through that door and you made a right 20 turn, where would you go? 21 A. If you go out the door you make a right turn, then there is 22 a double door, go through that, then you have a variety of 23 options. You can make a right to go to the exit or you can 24 make a left to go to the cafeteria and the vending machines. 25 Q. Did you, during your visits, from time to time, were you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9123 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 ever in that cafeteria you just described? 2 A. Yes, I was. 3 Q. And to your observation, who did that cafeteria appear to 4 be for? 5 A. I believe it is for the staff. 6 Q. And what was in that cafeteria? 7 A. There were a kitchen area, table, chairs, and a few vending 8 machines, coffee machines. Soda. Snacks. 9 Q. During any of your visits, were you and the other attorneys 10 permitted to go to that area to purchase whatever was for sale? 11 A. Yes, we were. 12 Q. And when you went to the cafeteria area or the vending 13 machine, were you permitted to travel by yourself? How did you 14 have to travel? 15 A. No, we always have to be escorted. Somebody has to go with 16 us. 17 Q. At the time you were asked to pretend to translate from 18 time to time, did you believe that you were doing anything that 19 was particularly wrong? 20 A. Stupid, yes. Wrong, no. 21 Q. Did you, your own state of mind, believe that anything that 22 was being discussed during the visit was, in any way, improper, 23 proper? What was your point of view? 24 A. No. I believed as long as a lawyer was in the room and a 25 lawyer was telling me what to do, that was the proper thing to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9124 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 do. I did that with Mr. Clark, Mr. Jabara and Ms. Stewart. 2 Q. Did it ever occur to you that you were committing a fraud 3 on the government? 4 A. Absolutely not. 5 Q. We can take that down from the screen now. Thank you. 6 In terms of speaking with representatives of the media 7 on behalf of Sheikh Rahman, who was it that spoke to the press? 8 Was it the interpreter, the attorneys? Who spoke to the press? 9 A. The attorneys mainly, yes. 10 Q. And did you ever act as a representative or spokesperson 11 for Sheikh Rahman with the press? 12 A. Never did. 13 Q. Are you aware that other people associated with the 14 representation of Sheikh Rahman did speak to the press? 15 A. Yes, I am. 16 Q. And are you aware of who, over the course of time, spoke 17 with the press? 18 A. Over the course of time, Mr. Ramsey Clark, Abdeen Jabara, 19 Ms. Stewart, and Mr. Ahmed Abdel Sattar. 20 Q. Did Mr. Schilling ever act as a spokesperson with the 21 media? 22 A. No. Not to my knowledge, no. 23 Q. In the course of your experience with the lawyers and the 24 representation of Sheikh Rahman, did you come across times when 25 lawyers did speak to the press on behalf of Sheikh Rahman? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9125 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Several times. Many times. 2 Q. And I'm going to display or show you a series of documents 3 starting with 516. 4 Your Honor, without looking at the exhibits, can you 5 pick them up out of your book because your screen is not 6 working yet, correct? 7 A. No, it is not working. It is blank. 8 Q. Would you pick up the exhibit books and see if you can find 9 Exhibit 516? 10 A. 516. 11 Q. Starting with 516? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And looking through the exhibits that begin with 516 14 through 522, generally speaking what is contained in those 15 exhibits? 16 A. These are articles in the Arabic newspaper and in English 17 newspapers about Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. Press releases were 18 done by several lawyers. 19 Q. And did you come across those articles at the time that 20 they were published? Were you aware of them at the time they 21 were published? 22 A. Yes, I was. 23 Q. Did they have an impact on your state of mind regarding 24 whether the attorneys were okay with speaking with the press? 25 A. Sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9126 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm going to offer MY-516 2 through 522 and the corresponding translations: 516T, 519T, 3 520T, 521T and 522T? 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I speak with Mr. Ruhnke 5 for a moment? 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 (Counsel conferring) 8 BY MR. RUHNKE: 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, also contained in that series of documents is 10 an exhibit marked 517; would you look at that, particularly? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Just without describing what is in there, were you aware of 13 this particular statement? 14 A. Yes, I am. 15 Q. And is this also a statement made publicly on behalf of 16 Sheikh Rahman? 17 A. Yes, this statement was. 18 Q. Do you recall that this statement was in your home when it 19 was seized? 20 A. It probably was in my notebooks, yes. 21 Q. And did that also have an impact on your state of mind 22 regarding the ability of the lawyers to -- the propriety of the 23 lawyers in terms of the speaking to the media and other 24 representatives about the Sheikh's case? 25 A. Yes. Sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9127 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: I offer 517 as well. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I voir dire? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 BY MS. BAKER: 5 Q. Mr. Yousry, directing your attention to Exhibit MY-517, 6 that is not a news article, correct? 7 A. 517 is an English document that -- 8 Q. Right. 9 A. -- I did not translate. So, it's a translation of a 10 document that was in Arabic. 11 Q. But my question is -- 12 A. It is not a newspaper article, no. 13 Q. It's in the form of a letter, essentially? Is that 14 correct? 15 A. It is a letter dictated by the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel 16 Rahman, in Arabic, to me, in order to convey to Mr. Ramsey 17 Clark, who was going on a trip to attend an Arab summit meeting 18 to communicate his thoughts. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, my question was: It is in the form of a 20 letter, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And it is dictated in Arabic? 23 A. I said that, yes. 24 Q. You are the person when translated it? 25 A. I'm not sure actually if this is my translation or not, but SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9128 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - voir dire 1 I know that I translated it to Mr. Clark. 2 So, whether this is my translation or not I would have 3 to look it over. 4 Q. Would you look it over, please? 5 A. Sure. 6 Yes, this seems to be mine. It is my translation. 7 Q. And are you the person who typed up this document? 8 A. Yes, I think so. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we have no objection to the 10 exhibit, subject to a limiting instruction, including the 11 instruction about news articles. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MS. BAKER: Just to be clear. The news article 14 instruction obviously applies to all the exhibits that have 15 been offered other than 517. 517 we request an instruction 16 that it is not for the truth but for state of mind. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 Ladies and gentlemen, Exhibits MY-516 through 522 and 19 516T through 522T are admitted in evidence. 20 (Defendant's Exhibits MY-516 - MY-522 received in 21 evidence) 22 (Defendant's Exhibits MY-516T - MY-522T received in 23 evidence) 24 THE COURT: These documents are admitted not for the 25 truth of any of the statements in the documents, any of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9129 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 matters asserted in the documents, but rather for their effect 2 on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind at the time. 3 And as you have heard, some of these exhibits -- in 4 fact as described all of the exhibits with the exception of 5 MY-517 and 517T, are newspaper articles and as I have 6 previously instructed you, newspaper articles contain 7 out-of-court statements by reporters about what happened. 8 Those statements may or may not be accurate and, in turn, may 9 contain even other statements being reported by the reporters, 10 so the articles are not being received for the truth of 11 anything that is said in them but solely with respect to the 12 knowledge, intent and state of mind of Mr. Yousry. 13 All right. 14 MR. RUHNKE: Can we display, please, for the jury, 15 516, in evidence? 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Q. And can we highlight the text portion? Thank you. 18 Mr. Yousry, what is this document? 19 A. This is an article in Al-Hayat newspaper. 20 Q. Can you tell by looking at the Arabic the date of that 21 article? 22 A. I have to look here. I can't see that far. 23 Yes, I can. It's August 9th, 1997. 24 Q. And can we take that down now and can we switch to the 25 Elmo? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9130 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Your Honor, I would like to now read to the jury the 2 translation, which is 516T. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. RUHNKE: We will display it, okay? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. The leader of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya -- I'm sorry. 7 I will start again. This is from Al-Hayat dated 8 August 9, 1997, headline reads: Omar Abdel Rahman Supports the 9 Initiative for Halting Violence in Egypt. It is written by 10 Gamal Kashoggi. 11 The leader of Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya in Egypt, Sheikh 12 Omar Abdel Rahman, has finally announced his support for the 13 initiative to halt violence in his country. Sheikh Abdel 14 Rahman, who is currently detained in the United States of 15 America, disclosed in a statement signed by him (of which 16 Al-Hayat obtained a copy) that he supports the initiative of 17 the "youth who have offered their souls to please God. If they 18 call today for a halt of all violent operations, we must 19 respond positively and accede to their initiative without 20 hesitation." 21 Mr. Ramsey Clark, Omar Abdel Rahman's attorney, said 22 that the Sheikh had informed him, verbatim, "I support the 23 initiative to halt the violence and I ask the others to do the 24 same." Mr. Clark told Al-Hayat that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman 25 had given him this statement in Arabic and English, as well as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9131 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 had asked the attorney to release it to the media. In doing 2 so, he wishes "to clarify his position regarding the 3 initiative" which was launched by the detained leaders of 4 Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in Egypt and supported by local 5 Al-Gama'a chapter. Leaders outside of Egypt, however, had been 6 hesitant in lending their support. It is expected that Sheikh 7 Omar Abdel Rahman's support for the initiative now will put to 8 an end such hesitation as he holds a strong theological 9 influence upon the movement. 10 The Sheikh had been elected the leader of this 11 movement for a certain period of time; he remains one of its 12 more influential scholars and theological advisors to date, 13 especially since the assassination of Egyptian President Anwar 14 Al-Sadat. The Sheikh had permitted members of Al-Gama'a 15 Al-Islamiyya to rise up against the Egyptian authorities, 16 including common soldiers and members of the police department, 17 since the latter were considered accomplices of the regime and 18 therefore bore responsibility. 19 As for the other sources who have disseminated the 20 Sheikh's statement, they are confirming that it has now reached 21 most of the Al-Gama'a leaders outside of Egypt. The statement 22 reads: "They are youth who believe in God, and thusly, God has 23 fortified their piety. In reward for their worship of the God 24 in the heavens and their insistence that they will never 25 worship anyone but him, God has strengthened their hearts. I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9132 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 thank God for such youth who have offered their souls to please 2 God. If they call today for a halt of all violent operations, 3 we must respond positively and accede to their initiative 4 without hesitation. We must follow in their footsteps as the 5 truth is with them. We are fully aware of who our enemy is. 6 Let us unite and attempt to do away with it. God will grant 7 victory to whomever he wishes. God is almighty and God is all 8 loving." Signed Omar Abdel Rahman. 9 The last portion of the statement points to the 10 mediation two years ago regarding the halt of the violence in 11 Egypt. The mediators' logic was that the Israelis were 12 benefitting from all the acts of violence that have occurred -- 13 especially those directed against tourists and Christians. The 14 Israelis were behind them in one form or another. 15 The initiative to halt violence translated into a 16 serious dialogue during the former Egyptian interior minister, 17 General Mohammed Abd al-Alim Moussa's last days in office. The 18 peace initiative had been spearheaded by the late Sheikh 19 Mohammed Al-Ghazzali, in addition to several other scholars and 20 intellectuals; the initiative failed and all talks ended upon 21 the interior minister's dismissal. 22 The initiative to halt violence gained momentum this 23 year through the work of a newspaper of Egyptian lawyers, who 24 facilitated the exchange of opinions between the imprisoned 25 leader of Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya and unincarcerated Muslim SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9133 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 activists and scholars. Their efforts came to fruition last 2 month in the declaration of the initiative. 3 Mr. Clark, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's lawyer, said 4 that he had read about the initiative in the Washington Post 5 and Al-Hayat. Other sources confirm that the Sheikh derived 6 his understanding of the initiative through very limited 7 contact. Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman had been arrested and convicted 8 of inciting acts of violence in the United States. 9 Sheikh Abdel Rahman is an influential voice within 10 this universal movement. He added that "the Sheikh is 11 currently held in solitary confinement; he fasts daily, only 12 breaking his fast with very light meals and consuming a cup of 13 soup to sustain his fast the next day. Moreover, the Sheikh 14 refuses to take his diabetic medication in protest of his harsh 15 daily treatment. He also believes that since his living 16 conditions are intolerable, his health will not be improved by 17 medication." 18 And that concludes the reading of that exhibit. 19 Could we next have displayed Exhibit 517? MY-517? 20 THE COURT: Yes; in evidence. 21 MR. RUHNKE: In evidence. 22 If we can have the text portion of that enlarged. 23 Q. Mr. Yousry, Ms. Baker had asked you a few questions about 24 this document a few minutes earlier. Would you explain the 25 circumstances as to your recollection as to how this document SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9134 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 came into existence and what its purpose was? 2 A. I believe Mr. Clark informed the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel 3 Rahman, that he was invited to attend an Arab summit in Abu 4 Dubai, I believe, in the gulf state. 5 Q. Were you here when Mr. Clark advised Sheikh Omar at that 6 time? 7 A. Yes, I was the only interpreter at that time. 8 Q. What was the discussion that followed? 9 A. They discussed whether or not to take advantage of 10 Mr. Clark being there in the Middle East and whether or not 11 Mr. Clark should take a message from the Sheikh to address the 12 leaders of the Arab world. 13 Q. And, did the Sheikh prepare a message? 14 A. I believe he dictated a message the following week. 15 Q. And to whom did he dictate that message? 16 A. He dictated that message to the kings and the presidents of 17 the Arab world. To me. I'm sorry. 18 Q. The king and the president weren't there? 19 A. No, they were not. 20 Q. To whom did he dictate that letter? 21 A. I took it down. 22 Q. And it was translated into English, is that correct? 23 A. I believe that the letter was several pages long and 24 Mr. Clark asked me to summarize it for him. And I did an oral 25 translation to Mr. Clark and Mr. Clark chose which points that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9135 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 I should translate verbatim. And that's what I did. 2 Q. And is the letter to the kings and princes and brothers 3 from Sheikh Rahman what is depicted now in Exhibit 517? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. If we could display -- let me just put it on the Elmo, if I 6 could have the Elmo back again. 7 I'm going to show you a portion of Exhibit 517, and 8 Exhibit 517 consists of an English language article, is that 9 correct? 10 MS. BAKER: Mr. Ruhnke, I believe you just stated the 11 wrong exhibit number. 12 A. 518. 13 Q. Is that 518, a translation of 518? 14 Do you have 518? 15 A. I do have 518. 16 Q. Do you see the English version that I am displaying on the 17 screen? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What date -- 20 THE COURT: It is helpful when you refer to an Exhibit 21 to refer to it as in evidence, MY-518, in evidence. 22 Q. MY-518, in evidence. 23 Do you see at the top of the printout the date of that 24 article? 25 A. Yes, I do. It is 4-10 February 1999. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9136 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And were you aware of this article, had you seen this 2 article at about the time it was published? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. I'm going to read, your Honor, the contents of Exhibit 518, 5 in evidence. 6 It is headed, Al-Ahram Weekly Online, published in 7 Cairo by Al-Ahram, established in 1875. Al-Ahram weekly, 4-10 8 February 1999, issue number 415. 9 Before I read it, Mr. Yousry, the publication 10 Al-Ahram, what role does that play in Egyptian society? 11 A. Al-Ahram is the semi-official newspaper of the Egyptian 12 government. 13 Q. And the head line reads: Clark Pleads for Jailed Gama'a 14 Leader. By Amira Howeidy. 15 Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney general and lawyer 16 for Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, was in Cairo this week to bring 17 attention to the case of the imprisoned cleric. Clark, who 18 arrived on Sunday, visited Sheikh Abdel Rahman's family in 19 Fayyum and met members of the Egyptian Organization for Human 20 Rights (EOHR) to outline the legal aspects of the case. 21 Abdel Rahman, spiritual leader of the underground 22 Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya, was charged, along with 14 others, with 23 involvement in a plan to blow up the United Nations and two" -- 24 I'm sorry, I will read that again -- "was charged, along with 25 14 others, with involvement in a plan to blow up the United SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9137 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Nations, two New York tunnels and other city targets, and with 2 a plot to assassinate President Hosni Mubarak. In 1993, he was 3 sentenced to life imprisonment. For the last two years, he has 4 been in solitary confinement and is permitted communication 5 only with his lawyer and prison officers. 6 According to Clark, the health of Abdel Rahman, who is 7 blind and diabetic, has deteriorated drastically and he has 8 lost 25 pounds. Clark claimed that the Sheikh is not being 9 given adequate medical care. 10 On Monday, Clark held a news conference at the office 11 of lawyer Muntasir Al-Zayat, the de facto spokesman for the 12 Gama'a. Al-Zayat told reporters that he met Clark last year 13 and agreed to help launch a media campaign to draw attention to 14 the Sheikh's plight. But Clark insisted that his latest visit 15 was aimed as helping the Abdel Rahman's family. 16 At the news conference, Abdel Rahman's son, Abdullah, 17 read out a statement praising his father. "He never preached 18 violence or destruction," said Abdullah. "Rather, he worked 19 for justice. He fears no one but God. This is why governments 20 have rejected him." 21 He continued. "My father is being subjected to the 22 worst type of psychological torture. For more than two years 23 he has been held in solitary confinement. He cannot pray 24 because the floor of his cell is always covered with water. 25 Moreover, he is given food and medicine that he does not want." SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9138 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Abdullah urged reporters to "investigate the charges 2 [against the Sheikh] before labeling him a terrorist." 3 And then the article continues at the bottom: 4 Clark stressed the damaging effects of solitary 5 confinement on the Sheikh's health. "The effect of this 6 protracted imprisonment on the Sheikh's health has been 7 extremely harmful. We have to recognize the total isolation 8 that he's in," he said. "He's the first person" -- continuing 9 on the next page -- "sentenced under the anti-terrorism act of 10 1936 to be placed in total isolation, sees no other prisoners, 11 has no communication with anyone. Because he's blind, he's 12 doubly in prison. He's got nothing to read. He can't hear the 13 Arabic language, so it's a silent, isolated world. I think we 14 need to remember all those things to report accurately on what 15 this case is all about." 16 Clark denied knowledge of any agreement between the 17 U.S. and Egyptian governments to transfer Abdel Rahman's appeal 18 procedures to Cairo. "I do not think that the Egyptian 19 government would receive him here with great joy," he said. 20 Asked about the prospect of Abdel Rahman being 21 released on the ground of ill health, Clark said that the only 22 available information on the Sheikh's condition was from the 23 federal prisons. "He was refused a request to be examined by a 24 doctor of his own choice. So, we can never know if his blood 25 sugar level in these reports is accurate or not," he said. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9139 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 This completes my reading of Exhibit 518, in evidence. 2 Mr. Yousry, the reference to Sheikh Rahman's own 3 personal physician, do you know who Mr. Clark was referring to, 4 of your own knowledge? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. And who was that? 7 A. Dr. Aziza. A-Z-I-Z-A. 8 Q. Is that a man or a woman? 9 A. She is the wife of Mr. Nabil Elmasry, one of the Sheikh's 10 paralegals. 11 Q. Were there other lawyers besides Mr. Clark who spoke on, to 12 the media, about the Sheikh's case? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And who were the other lawyers who spoke to the media about 15 the Sheikh's case? 16 A. Mr. Jabara and Ms. Stewart. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if we could have displayed, 18 if it is available, Exhibit MY-522. Can we have that displayed 19 on the Elmo? It is in evidence, your Honor. 522, in evidence. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 Q. Your Honor, we will do it just on the Elmo and I'm going 22 to -- I will display 522, first, in evidence. 23 Mr. Yousry, can you see 522, in evidence? 24 A. Yes, I can. 25 Q. And from your knowledge of having seen this document SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9140 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 before, do you know what 522, in evidence, represents? 2 A. Yes. I have seen it before. It is an article about Sheikh 3 Omar Abdel Rahman. And in this article two lawyers were 4 interviewed, Mr. Ramsey Clark and Mr. Abdeen Jabara. 5 This is a picture of Mr. Jabara. You can't see his 6 face but I recognize his ears. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, may I read 522T, in evidence? 8 THE COURT: Yes. MY-522T, in evidence. All right. 9 Q. Yes. 10 Exhibit MY-522T, in evidence, is headed BBC 11 Al-Mushahid Assiyasi weekly magazine, June 15 through June 21, 12 1997, volume 3, issue number 66, page 9-[12] and Op-Ed piece. 13 Headline, attorney Abdeen Jabara: We stated in the 14 appeal that the Sheikh is innocent [photo of Abdeen Jabara]. 15 Attorney Abdeen Jabara was born in the State of 16 Michigan in 1940. His father had immigrated to the United 17 States in 1909 from the township of Rashia Al-Wadi in the 18 western Bika'a valley of Lebanon. His mother immigrated to the 19 United States in the same year. Abdeen is Arabic Muslim and 20 one of the founders of the Arab Graduate Alumni Association and 21 a human rights organization. He graduated from the University 22 of Michigan in 1962. He obtained his law degree from Wayne 23 State University in Detroit in 1965. After his graduation he 24 lived for a year in Lebanon and worked for Dr. Saygh in the 25 Center for Palestinian Research. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9141 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Abdeen admits that his command of the Arabic language 2 is weak because he only learned Arabic at the age of 20. He 3 denies that he is a member of the popular front [for the 4 liberation of Palestine]; he considers himself a Lebanese who 5 does not subscribe to any political trend. 6 He served as the president of the [Arab] 7 anti-defamation league from 1986 through 1990. He defended 8 Sirhan Bishara Sirhan and Zyad Abu Ain, both of whom had been 9 expelled from occupied Palestine. He has served as a defense 10 attorney for many other Arab Americans as well. 11 "Q How are you handling Omar Abdel Rahman's case, 12 especially considering his lack of funds? 13 "A We have other cases that cover the office expenses 14 and we do not maintain a fancy office -- that is how we are 15 able to handle the case for free. 16 "Q You met with Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman in prison. 17 Why is the media barred from visiting him? 18 "A In order to keep him in isolation, they put in 19 place new laws as of April 1, 1997, ones which only pertain to 20 Omar Abdel Rahman. They are afraid and thus they are trying to 21 silence him. 22 "Q How are you going to counter the evidence in order 23 to convince the judge to release him?" 24 Page 2 25 "A We have submitted an extensive appeal and are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9142 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 awaiting the reply. We submitted the appeal two months ago and 2 the Court gave the government until June 25 to issue a reply; 3 the appeal case will commence after the U.S. government does 4 so. 5 "Q Arabs are wondering how such a miscarriage of 6 justice can take place in a U.S. court. 7 "A Not everything was unjust. For example, they 8 allowed him an attorney; however he was denied the opportunity 9 to select his own counsel. I was one of the lawyers working 10 with Lynne Stewart. 11 "Q Did you request permission for him to pray with 12 other prisoners [illegible -- page cut off]? 13 "A We requested that he be able to socialize with 14 other prisoners; we submitted a second request a week ago. We 15 are actually asking the Court to order the U.S. Bureau of 16 Prisons to allow him to speak with other prisoners, in addition 17 to letting him perform the Friday prayers with fellow Muslims 18 and obtain religious materials to which he could listen. 19 "Q The prison officials said they do not want him 20 socializing with other prisoners for his own safety and in 21 protection of his life. 22 "A This is a baseless excuse. 23 "Q Don't you think that a prisoner wanting fame might 24 attempt to kill him? 25 "A No. We want him to be able to mingle with other SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9143 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 prisoners. 2 "Q Is it true that he is kept from learning the time 3 for prayers and the direction to Mecca for his prayer? 4 "A He does not have the means to perform them. The 5 Sheikh does not have a watch. A Muslim Sheikh who does not 6 speak Arabic visits him once a month; that's all. What is 7 more, he doesn't have a recorder so that he might tape messages 8 for his family; he is only allowed to speak with them once a 9 month. 10 "Q Is it possible for him to be transferred to an 11 Arab or Muslim country, or even Egypt? 12 "A [illegible-page cut off]" 13 And that's the end of the interview and that completes 14 the reading of Defendant's Exhibit 522, in evidence. 15 Mr. Yousry, are you aware of contacts with the Sheikh 16 by representatives from the Japanese television network, which 17 you testified about? 18 A. Yes, I am. 19 Q. And were questions propounded to the Sheikh by 20 representatives of the media discussed in advance of the 21 questions being proposed? 22 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 Q. Did there come a time when the Sheikh was interviewed by 25 representatives of the Japanese media? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9144 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 A. I believe he was interviewed once in Rochester, 2 Minnesota -- I'm sorry, in Springfield, Missouri, and that 3 interview was conducted under the supervision of Ms. Stewart. 4 The second time the Japanese TV tried to interview him 5 they were not able to do so. They put some questions to 6 Mr. Clark, I believe. 7 Q. And do you recall recording in your notebook anything 8 regarding the Japanese television interview? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I am going to display for the 11 jury, if I may, from the Yousry notebook at the Bates Number 12 page 0727, the reference. And then I will display the 13 translation of that page. 14 With the Court's permission, they're both in evidence, 15 the whole notebooks are in evidence. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Ladies and gentlemen, I gave a long limiting 18 instruction with respect to the notebooks and of course you 19 have to continue to apply that. 20 Q. Displaying the page marked Yousry notebooks 0727, do you 21 see on the upper left-hand corner -- and of course actually the 22 top portion of the page, certain English writing? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. And what does that state? 25 A. It says approved by Mr. Clark. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9145 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And does it state who it is for? 2 A. Next to it it says, for Japanese public TV. 3 Q. And the rest of the page is in Arabic, is that correct? 4 A. Yes. It's questions and answers. 5 Q. I'm going to display for -- when you say it is questions 6 and answers, what do you mean? 7 A. It is the questions that Mr. Clark approved to ask the 8 Sheikh and the answers that the Sheikh provided for these 9 questions. 10 Q. Do you have an approximate estimate as to when this 11 discussion with the Sheikh took place? 12 A. I do not recall, but I'm sure it is recorded in the 13 notebook someplace. 14 Q. Displaying the English, the corresponding English 15 translation from that page, your Honor, which is also in 16 evidence. 17 Mr. Yousry, does that document that I am displaying 18 now contain, to your knowledge, an accurate translation of 19 notebook page 0727? 20 A. Yes, it does. 21 Q. And, after the English portions approved by Mr. Clark for 22 Japanese public TV there is a listing of what appear to be 23 questions. Question 1 reads: How is your condition now? 24 Question 2 reads: How is your health now? Question 3: Is 25 there any message that you would like to send to your family in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9146 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 Egypt or to the people in Egypt? 2 To your knowledge, where did those questions come 3 from? 4 A. They came from Mr. Noguchi I think his last name is. Ed 5 Noguchi, from the Japanese public TV. 6 Q. Is Mr. Noguchi someone you have met and spoken with? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what follows from that, you see an arrow and number 1. 9 Without reading through that what is the -- what is contained 10 at number 1? 11 A. These are the answers, I think. 12 Q. The answers provided by who? 13 A. By the Sheikh, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 14 Q. And who approved these answers to be given to the Japanese 15 public TV? 16 A. Mr. Clark and Mr. Jabara. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could we have a break now? 18 It is about 20 minutes to 11. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 10 minutes. 21 Please remember my continuing instructions, please don't talk 22 about the case at all and remember to keep an open mind. 23 All rise, please. 24 (Jury not present) 25 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry, can step down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9147 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 2 (Witness steps down) 3 THE COURT: May I talk to the lawyers, briefly? 4 (Page 9148 SEALED by order of the Court) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9150 4BH5SAT1 Yousry - direct 1 (Page 9149 sealed by order of the Court) 2 (In open court; jury present) 3 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 4 Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 6 are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you, sir. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 9 BY MR. RUHNKE: 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, when we were discussing the notebooks yesterday 11 afternoon, we marked into evidence seven separate bound copies 12 marked as MY1000 through 1007CT. Now I want to talk to you a 13 minute about the last volume, the 1007CT. And I'll begin by 14 showing you a folder that's marked for identification 15 Defendants' Exhibit MY1007. 16 MR. RUHNKE: May I approach, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. First of all, by way of foundation, Mr. Yousry, when we 19 received documents in discovery, after you were arrested from 20 the government, were there a series of documents that bore the 21 Bates stamp and heading Yousry notebook? 22 A. Yes, there were. 23 Q. Was there one collection of documents that wasn't 24 technically a notebook? 25 A. I believe so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9151 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And looking at Defendants' Exhibit MY1007, do those appear 2 documents that were headed under that heading part of the 3 Yousry notebook, but were really just a collection of 4 documents? 5 A. It seems so, yes. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the government and I agreed 7 on an oral stipulation that the documents that are reproduced 8 in MY1007CT are copies of what was in the folder now marked 9 MY1007, and that all those documents are still in existence. 10 Some of them have been moved into evidence and thus removed 11 from the folder, which is why everything isn't in the folder at 12 the present time. 13 And with that I would offer 1007. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, no objection, subject to the 16 same limiting instruction previously given for the notebook 17 series. 18 THE COURT: All right. Defense exhibits MY1007 and 19 MY1007CT are received in evidence. 20 (Defendant's Exhibits MY1007 and MY1007CT received in 21 evidence) 22 THE COURT: And this is subject to the same limiting 23 instruction that I gave you with respect to the -- what has 24 been called the Yousry notebooks, MY1000 through MY1006 and 25 MY1000CT through MY1006 CT. And you are to apply that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9152 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 instruction here. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 3 BY MR. RUHNKE: 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you have the notebooks available to you in 5 front of you? 6 A. Yes, they are down here. 7 Q. Would you pick up the notebook marked Defendant's 8 Exhibit MY1007CT in evidence. 9 A. All right. I think I have it, 1007CT. 10 Q. Would you turn to page 1187, which is near the beginning of 11 that file. 12 A. Yes, I have it. 13 Q. And before we discuss that document, just before the break 14 we were discussing the questions propounded to Sheikh Rahman by 15 Japanese TV. Do you remember that discussion? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. Were you able to determine during the break approximately 18 when that session occurred, when the questions were propounded 19 to Sheikh Rahman, when Mr. Clark approved it and when you 20 translated it? 21 A. I believe it took over a couple of months. It started like 22 in January 2000 and the answers were approved in March of 2000, 23 if I'm not mistaken. 24 Q. So it was early in the year 2000? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9153 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Now, turning to the -- page 1187 of the notebook, what is 2 depicted at 1187? 3 A. It's a New York Times article about Sheikh Omar Abdel 4 Rahman. 5 Q. And what is the date that appears on the article? 6 A. There is a handwritten note. It says New York Times, 7 10/22/2000. 8 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, may I display 1187. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Bates number 1187 from -- contained 11 within MY1007CT in evidence. 12 Q. Are you able to see that article, Mr. Yousry? 13 A. Yes, I am. My monitor's working now. 14 Q. Is that the article you were referring to? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with your permission I will 17 read it, because it's very, very difficult to follow. The 18 print is very small. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. RUHNKE: First of all, at the top of the 21 document -- I'm sorry, let me just redisplay it. I apologize. 22 Q. Is there a handwritten legend at the top of the document 23 that's besides the date of the article? 24 A. Yes. This is my handwriting and it says, approved by 25 A. Jabara. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9154 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And what does that mean? 2 A. That means that Mr. Jabara was the person who approved me 3 to read this article to the Sheikh. Since this article is in 4 English, I had to read it first and then translate it to the 5 Sheikh in Arabic. 6 Q. And to your knowledge did you do that? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I would now like to read the 9 article from that page. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. RUHNKE: It's called following up. It contains 12 what appears to be a photograph of Sheikh Rahman and the 13 subheadline, close prison watch for cleric in bombing. 14 When the powerful bomb that rocked the soaring Twin 15 Towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan in February '93 16 turned out to be the work of militant Muslims, Americans were 17 spectacularly shown that their home soil was not immune to 18 lethal reverberations of the Middle East conflicts. 19 Later federal officials said the bombing, which killed 20 six people and injured more than 1,000, was part of a larger 21 terrorist conspiracy that also included plans to bomb the 22 United Nations headquarters and the Lincoln and Holland 23 Tunnels. They said that -- they said the conspiracy's leader 24 was a blind, fiery fundamentalist cleric from Egypt, Sheikh 25 Omar Abdel Rahman, who had emigrated to the United States in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9155 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 1990. 2 In 1995 a jury in federal district court in Manhattan 3 convicted him of seditious conspiracy, rejecting his defense 4 that he had only been continuing his long-time exhortations in 5 America for the Egyptian government's overthrow. He was 6 sentenced to life in prison. 7 Today Mr. Abdel Rahman, 62, is in a federal prison 8 hospital in Rochester, Minnesota, under highly restrictive 9 conditions, one of his lawyers, Abdeen Jabara, said. He said 10 Mr. Abdel Rahman was kept isolated from the other prisoners and 11 permitted to make no prison calls except to his lawyers and one 12 15-minute call a month to his family in Egypt. Mr. Jabara said 13 that only immediate relatives were allowed to visit, and 14 because of the expense, they had come to the United States for 15 this purpose just once, when his client's wife and brother 16 stayed for two weeks last year. 17 He said that Mr. Abdel Rahman, unable to read or write 18 because of his blindness, "listens to a lot of tapes of Koranic 19 exegesis and recitation." A Federal Bureau of Prisons 20 spokeswoman, Tracy Billingsley, said she could not discuss any 21 inmate's confinement details. 22 Mr. Jabara's portrait of his client contrasted sharply 23 with a Reuters news agency report two weeks ago that said an 24 Islamic Group in London reportedly receiving a statement 25 relayed through Mr. Abdel Rahman's "legal advisors" in which he SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9156 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 urged Muslims to "kill Jews everywhere." Mr. Jabara said that 2 the report was "totally ridiculous." He added "it's not true 3 that any legal advisors transmitted such a message." 4 That's the end of the reading of that page from 5 MY1007CT in evidence. 6 Mr. Yousry, turning to the search of your home by 7 agents of the FBI on or about, or on April 9, 2002, do you 8 recall testimony about that? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 MR. RUHNKE: And I would like, with the Court's 11 permission, to display on the Elmo Government Exhibit 2301J, 12 which is in evidence. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 Q. Can you see that photograph, Mr. Yousry? 15 A. Yes, I can. 16 Q. And what is shown in that photograph? 17 A. This is the study, the room where I kept all my books and I 18 used to do all my work in. 19 Q. Zooming in a bit to the chair, can you see what is on the 20 chair in that photograph? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And what is on the chair? 23 A. That seems to be my notebooks, collection of my notebooks. 24 Q. All right. And we talked about that yesterday in your 25 conversation with Agent Whittle. Do you know of your own SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9157 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 knowledge how the notebooks actually physically wound up in 2 that position on your chair? 3 A. No. I know only that I gave them to her. 4 Q. You don't know what she did -- 5 A. I don't know about that, no. 6 Q. Zooming back a little bit in the photograph, what items are 7 in this study? For example, the poster on the left, generally 8 what does that poster contain? 9 A. It's a poster from the New York Times, I believe, and it's 10 a picture of Martin Luther King, and the other side of Charles 11 Manson. 12 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. And was that something that was displayed on your wall, 15 without describing what it was? 16 A. Yes. It's been on the wall since the time it was 17 published. 18 Q. Did you have any photographs in your study or office area 19 of Islamic scholars? 20 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 21 A. No. 22 THE COURT: Answered in any event. Overruled. 23 Q. And going forward into the office, whose photographs and 24 what kind of photographs did you maintain in your private 25 office? Are they Islamic leaders? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9158 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 2 THE COURT: He's already answered that, I believe. 3 Q. Turning to another photograph, Government Exhibit 2301L in 4 evidence. 5 MR. RUHNKE: I would like permission to display that 6 on the Elmo for the jury. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 Q. Looking at the exhibit marked 2301L in evidence, what is 9 depicted in that photograph, generally speaking? 10 A. This is a corner of the office where I was starting to pack 11 all my stuff, because we were moving so... 12 Q. And did you ever actually move after that? 13 A. No, we did not. 14 Q. And just moving the photograph over a little bit, and 15 zooming in on the top book, can you tell what that top book, 16 the title of that top book is? 17 A. It's a book published by Stanford University, Terror in the 18 Mind of God. 19 Q. And looking over to the left, do you see another book? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what is the title of that book? 22 A. Holy Wars. 23 Q. And looking at the pile of books that are at the top of the 24 photograph, are you able to read some of the titles of those 25 books? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9159 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes. These are some of the books that I used in teaching 2 my classes. History of the Middle East; Islam, a Short 3 History; Faith in the Mind of God; Arabic Intellectual Thoughts 4 in the Liberal Age; America and Political Islam. 5 Q. Now, why did you possess these kinds of books? 6 A. I teach the subject of Islam. I'm also -- at the time I 7 was writing about the topic of Islam, so all those books were 8 extremely important and helpful, in order to make me aware of 9 the current scholarship at the time. 10 Q. How long had you been teaching at the college level? 11 A. I believe seven years. 12 Q. Does the fact that an academic writes about a topic, what 13 does that mean about his or her views of -- as opposed to 14 endorsing or not endorsing a topic? Do you understand what I 15 mean? 16 A. Yes, I do. And if an academic is writing about a topic, 17 that does not mean that that academic endorsed that topic. 18 It's only a question that that academic wants to pursue, try to 19 find regimes of movements, intellectual investments of 20 movement, comparing such movements to other parts of the world, 21 social movements in the Middle East, comparing that to Latin 22 America. All of that is very, very helpful and very important 23 for us in order to understand how social movements develop. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Let me take that off the screen, if I 25 may. I'll display another section, if I may, this time SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9160 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Government Exhibit 2301M in evidence, with the Court's 2 permission. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 Q. In 2301M in evidence, are these additional books and 5 materials that you maintain in your home? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do these relate to -- what do these relate to? 8 A. The collection of books right next to the picture of 9 the four singers are books about culture, diversity, 10 multiculturism. These also, all these collection of books were 11 books that I used in teaching the culture diversity course at 12 New York College. 13 THE COURT: By the way, I'm not sure when you 14 answered -- the reporter got it down but -- is -- in 2301M in 15 evidence, are these additional books and terms that you 16 maintain in your home? I wasn't sure that you answered in 17 words as opposed to -- 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 20 Q. And to the left of the photograph, there appears to be a 21 photograph of somebody in an army uniform. Is that you? 22 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 Q. Is that you in that photograph? 25 A. Yes, it is. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9161 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. I see -- I'm sorry. Do you see what appear to be various 2 kinds of cassette type items in that photograph? 3 A. Yes. These are all videotapes of Arabic films, cinema, you 4 know, plays, songs, that I used over the years in teaching. 5 Most of them are subtitled. 6 MR. RUHNKE: And if I may display another exhibit at 7 this time, 2301-O in evidence, Government Exhibit 2301-O in 8 evidence. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 Q. And zooming out from that a little bit, what is depicted in 11 Government Exhibit 2301-O? 12 A. It's a bookshelf that contains on the bottom the appeal 13 actually, most of the books that I worked on for the appeal. 14 And on top -- 15 Q. When you refer -- let me interrupt for a moment. 16 When you're referring to the appeal, what are you 17 referring to? 18 A. I'm referring to the appeal that Mr. Ramsey Clark was 19 conducting for the Sheikh, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 20 Q. And to the left of the bookshelf, what is appear to be 21 audio cassettes. What are those audio cassettes? 22 A. These are collections of musics and songs that I collected 23 over the years; Arabic, Spanish, of course, and, you know, some 24 other languages. 25 Q. The item in the upper right-hand corner of the photograph, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9162 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 what is that? 2 A. Are you referring to the items on top of the shelf? 3 Q. No, I'm talking -- this item up here? 4 A. That's my father's. 5 Q. What is it? 6 A. That's my father's rug. 7 Q. What kind of rug? 8 A. It's a prayers rug. 9 Q. And I know I've asked you this before and asked you again: 10 Are you yourself an observant Muslim? 11 A. No. Neither is my father. He never prayed. He just had 12 one. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Going to the next series of photographs, 14 this will be the last one that I'll show, your Honor, with 15 permission. I'd like to display Government Exhibit, in 16 evidence, 2301P for Peter? 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 Q. I'll zoom back on that. What is displayed in that 19 photograph? 20 A. I believe these are my notebooks that I handed to Agent 21 Kimberly Whittle. 22 Q. And those are the same notebooks that you -- are now in 23 court? 24 A. I believe so, yes. 25 Q. Can you see from your copy or the one displayed copy an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9163 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 item behind the chair? 2 A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. 3 Q. Can you see from your copy an item that's behind the chair? 4 A. Yes, now I do. 5 Q. What is that item? 6 A. That is the laptop that was seized from my house. 7 Q. And that is the laptop that was produced in court? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And -- 10 A. That is the same one. 11 Q. And just to remind us, what was contained on that laptop 12 that we've discussed in court? 13 A. The versions of my dissertation, drafts of my dissertation. 14 Q. And when you returned home on the evening of April 9, 2002, 15 was that laptop still where it's shown in this photograph? 16 A. No, the laptop wasn't there. My wife's computer wasn't 17 there. So there was no computers at all in the house. 18 Q. Are you aware of approximately how many documents were 19 taken from your home? 20 A. I was told 26 boxes. 21 Q. Did you also have in your library books on Central America, 22 South America and other topics? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. What was your interest -- I'm sorry. 25 Why did you have books on Central and South America? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9164 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Objection. Relevance. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't hear the basis for the 4 objection. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't hear the basis. 7 THE COURT: Relevance. 8 BY MR. RUHNKE: 9 Q. Did you confine your academic interests to Islam and the 10 Middle East? 11 A. No, I did not. 12 Q. Did you also have an interest in other regions of the 13 world? 14 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 MR. RUHNKE: I'll move on. 17 Q. Do you know the name Rifa'i Taha? 18 A. Yes, I do know of the name, yes. 19 Q. And what was your understanding, or what is your 20 understanding as to who Rafa'i Taha is? 21 A. I believe the first time I heard the name was in late '99, 22 when he -- there was a few articles in the newspapers that he 23 was removed from the leadership of IG, al-Gama'a Islamiyya. 24 Q. Have you ever spoken with Rifa'i Taha? 25 A. Never. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9165 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Have you ever corresponded with him? 2 A. Never. 3 Q. To your knowledge have you ever met Rifa'i Taha? 4 A. Absolutely not. 5 Q. Do you recall evidence in this case about a book authored 6 by Rifa'i Taha? 7 A. I do remember that, yes. 8 Q. Prior to your arrest in April of 2002, had you ever seen a 9 copy -- 10 A. No -- 11 Q. -- of that book? 12 A. No, I did not see any copy of that book. 13 Q. Are you aware whether anyone else associated with this 14 case -- let me rephrase that question. 15 Directing your attention to a time prior to April 9 of 16 2002, were you aware that anyone else associated with this case 17 may have had conversations with Rifa'i Taha? 18 A. Not direct conversation. Yes, I'm aware of that. On 19 May 19th of 2000 there was a letter that Ms. Stewart asked me 20 to read to her prior to going to the prison, and it says in it 21 that Mr. Sattar was summarizing something to the Sheikh. And 22 in it he said that he's in contact with Abu Yasir, Rifa'i Taha. 23 And of course that meant he was in contact with him through 24 Muntasir Zayyat, to me, that that's what it meant. 25 Q. Were you aware at the time before your arrest and before SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9166 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 reviewing discovery materials of the nature of that contact? 2 A. No, absolutely not. 3 Q. Do you recall discussions in this case of an interview in 4 Al-Quds newspaper of Mr. Taha? 5 A. I do remember that, yes. 6 Q. And do you recall approximately when that interview took 7 place? 8 A. Actually, I'm not sure. I think '99, if I'm not mistaken, 9 1999. 10 Q. Early or late 1999? 11 A. I -- I can't -- I don't remember. 12 Q. Do you recall being asked at some point to read that 13 interview to Sheikh Rahman? 14 A. Not only to Sheikh Rahman. I thought that if I was able to 15 read that interview, it would help me in my dissertation, even 16 though I wasn't thinking of writing anything about him. And 17 the end period of my dissertation was 1995, and he was not 18 mentioned once even in my dissertation, because to me, he was 19 an insignificant figure up until 1995. 20 So, yes, I do remember that there was an interview 21 article that I was asked to read to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 22 Q. I'm going to show you a government exhibit in evidence 23 marked 2020 on the Elmo. 24 MR. RUHNKE: With the Court's permission. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9167 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Can you read -- I'm sorry. Can you see Government 2 Exhibit 2020 on the screen that's in front of you? 3 A. Yes, I can. 4 Q. And do you recall receiving that article in that form back 5 at around the time that it was published? 6 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 A. I received this document through fax. Mr. Sattar faxed 9 this document to me at shrink-to-fit, so basically I was not 10 able to read it. 11 Q. That was my next question. In the form that it got to you, 12 were you able to read the Arabic text? 13 A. No, I was not. 14 Q. Did you make any efforts to do anything with the article in 15 an effort to render it more legible? 16 A. I took the article along with me to Mr. Clark's office. I 17 told Mr. Clark about it. He asked me what the article 18 contains. I said, I have no idea, I can't read it. He asked 19 me to try to enlarge the article. I did a couple of times and 20 we were not successful. So I wasn't able to read it. 21 Q. You were not able to make out the Arabic text? 22 A. Absolutely not, no. I wasn't. 23 Q. Can you -- is there a portion of this article that bears 24 the date that you can see? If I zoomed it, where would it be? 25 A. If it does, it's not clear. I can't read it very clear. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9168 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Where would the date appear on the article? 2 A. On top. It would be on top of the box. 3 Q. And are you able to read the date of the article? 4 A. No. I'm sorry, Mr. Ruhnke, I can't read it. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with permission I'd like to 6 display the first page, or at least the top page of Government 7 Exhibit 2020T in evidence, then ask Mr. Yousry if he -- if that 8 reflects a date. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. Do you see the date displayed on Government Exhibit 2020T? 11 A. It says November 29, 1999. 12 Q. And does that refresh your recollection of about the time 13 you were asked to try to read this article to the Sheikh? 14 A. That's about right, yes. 15 Q. I'm going to display for you a series of documents in 16 evidence beginning at 2300. Do you have those series in front 17 of you, in your notebook? 18 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Ruhnke. Referring to ... 19 Q. Just a minute. If I could just have a moment. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'll display them on the 21 screen, if I may. They're Government Exhibit 2300A through D 22 in evidence. May I display them? 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 Q. What is shown in Government Exhibit 2300A? 25 A. This is a picture of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman holding what SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9169 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 appears to be a rifle. And I think this picture was taken of 2 him in Afghanistan in the '80s. 3 Q. And showing you 2300B, what is depicted in 2300B? 4 A. A picture of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman with some probably 5 Afghani soldiers or something, also in the '80s in Afghanistan. 6 Q. And 2300C? 7 A. Also it's a picture of Omar Abdel Rahman sitting on top of 8 what appears to be a military vehicle of some kind, surrounded 9 by several people. 10 Q. And finally, what is 2300D in evidence? 11 A. It appears to be during the same visit as well, a picture 12 of him with some Afghani people here in the '80s. 13 Q. And what was occurring in Afghanistan during the 1980s, to 14 your knowledge? 15 A. To my knowledge I believe the Afghani people were able to 16 defeat the Soviet Union at the time, and they were establishing 17 a Muslim state in Afghanistan. 18 Q. And we've heard the term "mujahadeen" used a lot in this 19 case. Was that term used in reference to the Afghani Soviet 20 war? 21 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Q. What does the term mujahadeen mean? 24 A. Well, the term mujahadeen means different things to 25 different people. But in context of this case, and in context SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9170 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 of Omar Abdel Rahman's ideas, it means a person who strives for 2 the sake of God. 3 Q. And are you aware of that term being used in any way in 4 connection with the war between Afghanistan and the Soviet 5 Union after the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan? 6 A. Yes, I am. And I'm aware that this term was used in order 7 to convince young people to join the battle -- they called it 8 the jihad battle -- against the Soviet. So they called 9 themselves mujahadeen, going to perform jihad. 10 Q. Where did the mujahadeen come from who fought in 11 Afghanistan? Was it just Afghanistan? Was it other countries? 12 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. Do you know what the position of the United States was in 15 reference to the mujahadeen -- 16 MS. BAKER: Objection, relevance. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 MS. BAKER: Would you ask the witness when I rise to 19 object, he not start answering. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't look at her. 22 THE COURT: Hold on. Stop. Stop. All right. 23 BY MR. RUHNKE: 24 Q. The photographs that I've just shown you, the 2300A through 25 D series, do you know where they were found in connection with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9171 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 this case? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Where were they found? 4 A. In my house. 5 Q. And did you have a discussion with -- did you have any 6 discussion with Agent Whittle when she came to your house on 7 April 9, 2002, with regard to these photographs? 8 A. She specifically asked for three things. 9 MS. BAKER: Objection, hearsay. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 Q. And when did you acquire the photographs that are marked 12 2300? 13 A. Those photographs were mailed from the Sheikh's family to 14 Mr. Clark's office. 15 Q. And do you know approximately when that occurred? 16 A. I believe it's June of 2001. 17 Q. Do you recall any discussion with Sheikh Rahman about these 18 photographs and what ought to be done with them? 19 A. Yes. Mr. Jabara, I believe, and Mr. Clark were the two 20 attorneys taking the call. They informed the Sheikh that they 21 received pictures of him when he was much younger. They 22 started to make jokes about it and stuff. And the Sheikh gave 23 them something, you know, instructions that those pictures 24 should be distributed. They should be given to people. 25 And after the call was over, Mr. Clark and Mr. Jabara SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9172 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 decided that they're not going to do any of that. And 2 Mr. Clark asked me if it would be helpful if I kept them; I 3 might be able to use them in my dissertation. And I said yes 4 so he gave them to me. 5 Q. Do you know where the photographs physically were on 6 April 9, 2002, when they came to your house? 7 A. They were in one of my notebooks, my notebooks connected to 8 this case. 9 Q. The notebooks that you've identified? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall in some of the taped evidence we've heard in 12 this case Sheikh Rahman writing a letter to Mr. Sattar 13 concerning your wife becoming a good Muslim? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. Did you ever discuss with your wife the prospect of 16 becoming a Muslim? 17 A. Absolutely not. I'm not a good Muslim. How can I speak to 18 her about being a good Muslim? No. 19 Q. Did Sheikh Rahman ever express his own views to you on your 20 religious practices or lack thereof? 21 A. He was, to put it mildly, extremely disappointed that I 22 drank; extremely disappointed that I do not pray; extremely 23 disappointed that I do not know verses of the Koran. And 24 frankly it didn't bother me so ... 25 Q. And do you recall hearing in this courtroom references to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9173 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Sheikh Rahman's will? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 MR. RUHNKE: And I'm going to display, with the 4 Court's permission, Government Exhibit 2507T in evidence. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 Q. The document 2507T in evidence -- 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Ruhnke. The exhibit is 8 2057T? 9 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: OK. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Did I misspeak? 12 THE COURT: I think the last couple of questions may 13 have been directed to 2517. That's why I stopped you. 14 But it's -- you're referring to Government 15 Exhibit 2057T? 16 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, I'm referring to the current 17 exhibit, 2057T, your Honor, in evidence. 18 THE COURT: OK. 19 BY MR. RUHNKE: 20 Q. Now, this document is marked 2057T in evidence. Did you 21 ever have this document in your home? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And does this document discuss the Sheikh's views on a 24 number of issues? 25 A. Yes, it does. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9174 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Does it contain -- if you can recall -- a discussion of 2 whether people should join with the Christians? 3 A. It does. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm going to display from 5 this document page four, with permission. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 Q. Do you see the -- on that screen the phrase right in the 8 middle, "take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends 9 and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each 10 other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) 11 is of them." Do you see that document? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Have you taken Jews and Christians as your friends and 14 protectors? 15 A. I took Christians as my wife and my daughter. Jewish 16 people are similar, they're my friends. I have several friends 17 that are Jewish. 18 Q. And to your knowledge would that meet with Sheikh Rahman's 19 approval? 20 A. I don't think so, no. 21 Q. Did you have anything to do with a will of Sheikh Rahman? 22 A. No, I did not, not this particular will, no. 23 Q. How about another one? 24 A. Yes, there was another will that he, I believe, dictated in 25 the presence of Mr. Ramsey Clark with respect to his money, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9175 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 with respect to his family in Egypt. I translated that will to 2 Mr. Clark. Mr. Clark signed it, got it approved, I believe, 3 from the prison. And then Mr. Clark and Mr. Jabara took it to 4 the Egyptian embassy and they got it sealed. 5 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, with permission I'd like 6 to display Exhibit MY500. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MS. BAKER: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Oh. 10 MS. BAKER: It's not in evidence. 11 MR. RUHNKE: I'm sorry, you're right. I'm sorry. 12 Can we display it only to the witness, please, on the 13 screen. 14 THE COURT: All right? Are you able to see that 15 document now. 16 THE WITNESS: Not yet. Not yet. 17 BY MR. RUHNKE: 18 Q. OK. 19 A. It's up now. 20 Q. Now you can see it. And what is Defendant's Exhibit MY5 -- 21 THE COURT: Hold on. It should not be on the screen 22 before the jury. 23 MR. RUHNKE: It's not, your Honor, I don't think. 24 It's not. 25 Q. What is Defendant's Exhibit MY500? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9176 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 A. It's a draft translation of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's will 2 that he dictated in front of Mr. Ramsey Clark. 3 Q. And do you know whether you had that document in your home 4 on April 9, 2002, when it was searched by the FBI? 5 A. Yes, it was in my house. It was -- 6 Q. Is that -- is the copy you're looking at a true and 7 accurate copy of MY500? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I offer MY500. 10 THE COURT: All right. No objection, MY500 received 11 in evidence. 12 (Defendant's Exhibit MY500 received in evidence) 13 MR. RUHNKE: Can we display it now to the jury. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. RUHNKE: And can we highlight the text on MY500. 16 Thank you. 17 BY MR. RUHNKE: 18 Q. Looking at MY500, Mr. Yousry, first of all, although it 19 does not show it very clearly on the screen, down the bottom of 20 the exhibit -- leave the highlighting as it is -- down the 21 bottom of the screen do you see this item that I have just 22 circled? 23 A. Yes. It's a sticker, I believe. 24 Q. And was that a sticker that you yourself had placed on 25 there? Have you seen that sticker in other places? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9177 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 A. I think it's an FBI sticker, not me. I did not. 2 Q. And to your knowledge this document was seized by the FBI, 3 or was it not, seized on April 9, 2002? 4 A. I think it was seized by the FBI, yes. 5 MR. RUHNKE: I would like, your Honor, with the 6 Court's permission to read the English text of the document. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. RUHNKE: It's headed, the last will and testament 9 of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 10 Every soul will face death. I am appointing Ahmed 11 Abdel Sattar and Nabil Elmasry as executors of my last will and 12 testament. 13 In the name of God, the merciful, compassionate, 14 thanks be to God. Peace and prayers be upon his prophet. I 15 have designated brother Ahmed Abdel Sattar and brother Nabil 16 Elmasry to execute this last will and testament. They shall 17 possess the absolute right to dispose of all my belongings and 18 decide what to send to my relatives. They shall be responsible 19 for settling all my debts in Egypt, in America and any other 20 place. They shall receive my body from the American 21 government, prepare it for burial according to Islamic 22 traditions and ensure its transport to my relatives in Egypt. 23 They shall announce the circumstances of my death to the 24 Islamic world. I am giving them permission to hold a press 25 conference, speak in my name and make any necessary SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9178 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 announcements. They shall have the right to speak on my behalf 2 to my lawyers in Egypt as well as the United States, and to any 3 other legal organization. They shall have the right to approve 4 or disapprove any marriage proposal made to my children, 5 whether male or female, based on the piety and capabilities of 6 the respective bride or groom. I request that Mr. Ramsey Clark 7 undertake all the necessary legal steps in order to ensure that 8 my last will and testament is duly executed. 9 As God is my witness, may God lead us to the right 10 path. He is the leader. Peace and mercy upon you. March 4, 11 1997. 12 And then does there follow a handwritten English 13 language portion of that text, Mr. Yousry? 14 A. I see it. 15 Q. Is there now a handwritten portion that follows March 4, 16 1997? 17 A. There is some written in Arabic and some written in 18 English. 19 Q. Sticking with the materials written in English, do you 20 recognize the handwriting? 21 A. I believe it's mine. 22 Q. If we could highlight just the bottom portion of that. All 23 right, we can leave it there. 24 Can you read it as it's stated there. 25 A. I think I can. I further request that a complete autopsy SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9179 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 be made in the event of my death to determine the cause of my 2 death. 3 Q. Now, is there more to this document, MY500? 4 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "more." 5 Q. If you could look at the last two pages of Exhibit 500. 6 And if we could display the last -- the first page of the last 7 two pages, just display it for the jury. And if we could just 8 enlarge the text. 9 Did this will undergo some revisions along the way? 10 A. Yes, it did. 11 Q. And was this the final version of the will that you were 12 involved in regarding Omar Abdel Rahman? 13 A. I think it is, yes. 14 Q. And to your knowledge, was this, along with the other 15 portions of MY500, seized from your home on or about April 9, 16 2002? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what happened to your knowledge with this document? 19 A. Right after it was completed, I believe Mr. Clark had to 20 authenticate the document. He got it stamped from the prison, 21 if I'm not mistaken. Mr. Clark and Mr. Jabara went to the 22 Egyptian embassy and they got it sealed and they mailed a copy 23 to the Sheikh's family in Egypt. I know that they gave a copy 24 to Mr. Sattar and a copy to Mr. Elmasry. 25 Q. We referred earlier to Government Exhibit 2057T, which is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9180 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 another will attributed to Sheikh Rahman. Do you know what I'm 2 talking about? 3 A. Yes, I do. I do. 4 Q. And I don't know if I asked you this before: Did you ever 5 possess this document in your home? 6 A. No. No, I didn't. 7 Q. Were you aware of this document? 8 A. There was some fax from Ms. Stewart to me in order to read 9 to Mr. Clark from CNN. And there was some inquiry about some 10 will. That's the only thing I know about that. I was not 11 working on the case from, as I said before, from 1996 until 12 June of 1997, except with the occasional visits that the 13 lawyers did. 14 Q. And we can take that down, now. 15 In terms of your duties and working with the lawyers 16 and the representation of Sheikh Rahman, did the lawyers 17 occasionally ask you to do other things than simply be a 18 translator? 19 A. Yes. I coordinated between the lawyers. I coordinated 20 between the lawyers and the client, things of this nature, yes. 21 Q. Did there ever come a time when you were asked to do 22 something regarding money? 23 A. No. I got paid actually. If you're referring to the money 24 that I get paid to work with, Mr. Sattar approach me for -- 25 yes, I think so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9181 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Let me back up on the question. We'll take a break in a 2 minute, Mr. Yousry. 3 Did you get approached and asked something to do with 4 money? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Were you paid a certain sum of money -- I think we've seen 7 the check -- from Ms. Stewart's trust account? 8 A. Yes. I was paid $35,000 to cover the difference in my 9 original voucher that I didn't get from the government, and 10 Mr. Clark and Ms. Stewart were not able to recover this money 11 from me. On top of that, I had, I think it was, 11,000 for the 12 rest of my services. So a total of 35, if I'm not mistaken. 13 Q. And did there come times when other checks were written to 14 you by Ms. Stewart from that trust account? 15 A. I remember there were two checks after that. 16 Q. And what happened with the money that was written in those 17 trust account checks? 18 A. Well, it was discussed several times that Mr. Sattar wanted 19 to start a business in order to be -- 20 Q. Let me stop you there. Did you come to learn that at some 21 point Mr. Sattar actually did -- I'll back up even further. 22 I'm sorry. 23 Do you know what Mr. Sattar's employment is, where he 24 worked? 25 A. I know that Mr. Sattar was working for the post office, the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9182 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 postal service. 2 Q. And did there come a time when he tried to start up, or did 3 start up another business? 4 A. He started up a milk formula, baby formula business, yes. 5 Q. And, again, to your knowledge what did that baby formula 6 business consist of? What did he do? 7 A. I don't know more than he used to buy, you know, boxes of 8 that stuff wholesale and sell it retail, I believe. Something 9 like that. 10 Q. Now, with that background, how did the money fit into that 11 scenario? 12 A. Well, Mr. Sattar approached me and he said that he was 13 thinking of starting this business. And he cleared this up 14 with Ms. Stewart and I know that he spoke about it with other 15 lawyers. And, you know, he asked for $10,000 to start that 16 business. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we have an instruction 18 that these statements are not offered for their truth? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Agreed, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, any statements 22 that were made to the witness are not being offered for the 23 truth of anything in those statements, but solely for their 24 effect on the witness' state of mind. 25 All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9183 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. All right. So, Mr. Sattar approached you and requested 2 money to help with starting a business, is that correct? 3 A. Right, he did. He said that he cleared this up with 4 Ms. Stewart. And I know he -- he spoke about it with other 5 lawyers. And he wanted to start a business in order to be able 6 to pay the lawyers, pay me and get the conditions lawsuit 7 started. And Ms. Lynne Stewart, I think, was not in town. And 8 he said he needed the $10,000. And since I just got paid, I 9 had money, and he said I can get reimbursed later on, and 10 that's what happened. So I -- 11 Q. During that period of time, during 1991 even up to 1992, 12 what were your primary sources of income? 13 A. 1991, 1992? 14 Q. Let's take the year 1991, the year before -- the full year 15 before you were arrested. What -- 16 A. 2000 you mean, 2000? 17 Q. OK, I'm sorry. And 2001 for that matter. 18 During the years 2000/2001 what were your primary 19 sources of income? 20 A. Basically I had four jobs, if I'm not mistaken. I was 21 working on two translation projects for the Court -- for the 22 federal courts. I was also working for ABC as a 23 translator/interpreter. I was teaching at York College, and I 24 was working for Young Adult Institute as well. 25 Q. Was your wife also employed? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9184 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, my wife was a teacher, yes, teaching at a Christian 2 school in Westchester. 3 Q. And during the year, for example, 2000, what was your rough 4 family income that year? 5 A. Close to $225,000. 6 Q. And going back to the story with Mr. Sattar, after you 7 advanced him the $10,000, were you reimbursed for that or did 8 that money come back to you in any way? 9 A. Yes, I was reimbursed by that. 10 Q. Who were you reimbursed by? 11 A. Ms. Stewart. When she came back, I told her. 12 Q. There's been discussion, and we've heard some tapes, about 13 the committee to free Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. And did that 14 committee function? What was the story of that committee? 15 A. The committee was always an idea, and the committee was 16 never materialized. We had a couple of meetings I know of. 17 One was attended by Mr. Clark, and I believe one was attended 18 by Ms. Stewart. 19 Q. Who asked you to participate in those committee meetings? 20 A. The lawyer in charge asked me to participate in those 21 meetings. Also the client, Sheikh Omar, wanted me to attend in 22 order to be able to report back to the lawyers about what 23 happened. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, this would be a convenient 25 time for a break, if we may. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9185 4bhesat2 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll 2 break for ten minutes. Please remember my continuing 3 instructions. Please, don't talk about the case at all. 4 Always remember to keep an open mind. 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9186 4BH5SAT3 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 2 MR. RUHNKE: We are ready. 3 THE COURT: Bring in the jury. 4 (Jury present) 5 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 6 Mr. Fletcher? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 8 you are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. 10 THE COURT: All right, you may proceed. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, turning to the topic of the SAMs, the Special 13 Administrative Measures, to the best of your ability to recall, 14 when do you think was the first time you actually saw the 15 documents that are called Special Administrative Measures and 16 the accompanying attorney affirmations? 17 A. I believe that was sometime in 2001, late 2000.