9333 4bmesat1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 22, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9334 4bmesat1 1 (Trial continuing) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Good morning, all. All right. Are we 4 ready to begin? 5 MR. RUHNKE: Actually, your Honor, maybe two minutes, 6 we could finish getting a stipulation signed. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we are ready to proceed now. 9 THE COURT: All right. If Mr. Yousry could take the 10 stand and I'll bring in the jury. 11 (Pages 9335 through 9338 sealed by order of the court) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9339 4bmesat1 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: The jurors are looking at the meal menu, 3 that's why we're delayed. 4 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, I've been informed by my client 5 that today is one of his visiting Mondays, so if we could break 6 at 4:30 sharp, I would appreciate it. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. PAUL: Thank you. 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9340 4bmesat1 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. As 3 always, very good to see you. Good to see you all. 4 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 6 you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 10 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, resumed 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 12 BY MR. RUHNKE: 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, when we broke for the day last week, last 14 Thursday, we were discussing the October 6, 2000, ghost written 15 fatwah. Do you remember that testimony? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. And was there a period of time as you listened to that call 18 and as you participated in it that Mr. Clark was out of the 19 room? 20 A. Yes, there was. 21 Q. And can you estimate of what percentage of that call 22 Mr. Clark was actually not physically in the room? 23 A. 90 percent maybe. 24 Q. I'm sorry? 25 A. 90 percent. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9341 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And do you recall what it was that you discussed with 2 Sheikh Rahman while Mr. Clark was not in the room? 3 A. I discussed with the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, all 4 the approved topics by Mr. Ramsey Clark; the boxes, moving of 5 the files from Mr. Clark's office to a storage area. Discussed 6 with him the newspaper reading to him was approved by 7 Mr. Clark, Nasser's case, several other issues that were 8 approved by Mr. Clark. 9 Q. Over the years that you participated in prison calls, calls 10 with Sheikh Rahman from prison, before they were -- started to 11 be recorded, after they started to be recorded, how frequently 12 did it happen that the attorneys gave you a list of approved 13 topics and then really didn't participate in the conversation 14 any further? 15 A. It was frequent. 16 Q. And did you use those opportunities to pursue any agenda 17 that you might have had? 18 A. I had no other agenda than doing my job. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm going to show you a series of documents, if 20 I may. And they're contained in these four loose-leaf binders. 21 THE COURT: You may approach. 22 MR. RUHNKE: May I approach? I'm sorry, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 Q. And have you looked at these documents before? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9342 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And they bear the series or number 1200, they're all 2 variations of the number 1200, is that correct? 3 A. That is correct, yes. 4 Q. What is contained, generally speaking, in the 1200 series 5 of exhibits, defense exhibits MY1200? 6 A. I believe these are the intercepted prison calls. 7 Q. When did the prison calls begin to be actually 8 tape-recorded, intercepted, do you recall? 9 A. June 23 of 2000. 10 Q. And in front of you are what? What's contained in those 11 binders? Again, generally speaking. 12 A. These are the transcripts of the intercepted phone calls, 13 the prison phone calls. 14 Q. Are they transcripts of all of the intercepted phone calls? 15 A. I would think so. I think these are the transcripts of the 16 phone calls that I was present, I participated in. 17 Q. So that those are calls that you participated in? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you know approximately how many of the prison calls 20 were actually intercepted and tape-recorded? 21 A. I believe there were 63 calls. 22 Q. And of those 63 calls that were intercepted, approximately 23 how many did you actually participate in? 24 A. I would say between 40 and 45. 25 Q. And is that what's contained in the 1200 series? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9343 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I believe so, yes. 2 Q. With one exception, pursuant to an agreement by the 3 parties, what is -- what percentage of the prison calls are 4 contained in those exhibits, what portion of them? 5 A. I believe all of them. 6 Q. Meaning every conversation? 7 A. Precisely, from beginning to end. 8 Q. And have you listened to the calls in the Arabic -- 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'm -- it's just not -- the 10 question and answer was unclear as to whether the binders 11 contained all 63 or the 40 to 45. 12 Q. Which -- what is in the binders, all the prison calls or 13 just the ones that you are participant in? 14 A. Just the ones that I participated in. 15 Q. And with one exception, how much of each of those calls 16 that you participated in is reproduced in those binders? 17 A. I believe 100 percent from beginning to end. 18 Q. So the beginning to end of every call? 19 A. Of each call. 20 Q. That you participated in? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And have you listened to those calls -- other than having 23 participated in them yourself, have you subsequently listened 24 to those calls in the Arabic language? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9344 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And do the transcripts that are contained in the 1200 2 series accurately reflect the -- what was on the audio files of 3 those conversations? 4 A. Yes, they do. 5 Q. And have you also looked at various excerpts from the 1200 6 series, excerpts of transcripts? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. And when you reviewed the excerpted transcripts, do they 9 reflect conversations that were part of the full conversation? 10 A. Yes, they do. 11 Q. And do the excerpts match what was said during the full 12 conversation? 13 A. Yes, to my knowledge. 14 Q. And what was said during the excerpts, was that actually 15 said during those conversations? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm going to offer at this 18 time the following exhibits: MY1203, 1205, 1206, 1207, 1214, 19 1216, 1217, 1218, 1219, 1220, 1221, 1223, 1224, 1225, 1227, 20 1228, 1229x, which is the call that has been redacted pursuant 21 to agreement, 1230, 1231, 1233, 1234, 1236, 1237, 1238, 1239, 22 1240, 1241, 1242, 1243, 1244, 1245, 1246, 1247, 1248, 1249, 23 1251, 1252, 1253, 1254, 1255, 1256, 1257, 1258, 1259, 1262 and 24 1263. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9345 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor -- 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MS. BAKER: -- no objection to exhibits in this series 4 being admitted. I would like to double check that list of 5 exhibit numbers at some point later, but I'll try to deal with 6 any issues as Mr. Ruhnke seeks to present them in case we have 7 disagreement about the numbers. Otherwise, no objection, 8 subject to a limiting instruction. 9 THE COURT: All right. Those exhibits that were just 10 listed are received. 11 (Defendant's Exhibits MY1203, 1205, 1206, 1207, 1214, 12 1216, 1217, 1218, 1219, 1220, 1221, 1223, 1224, 1225, 1227, 13 1228, 1229x, 1230, 1231, 1233, 1234, 1236, 1237, 1238, 1239, 14 1240, 1241, 1242, 1243, 1244, 1245, 1246, 1247, 1248, 1249, 15 1251, 1252, 1253, 1254, 1255, 1256, 1257, 1258, 1259, 1262 and 16 1263 received in evidence) 17 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen -- received subject 18 to checking, but as of now they're received. These exhibits 19 should -- let me go back. 20 These exhibits are subject to a limiting instruction, 21 ladies and gentlemen. 22 Let me ask one question. These are the transcripts, 23 or are they the underlying recordings? 24 MR. RUHNKE: These are the transcripts themselves, 25 your Honor, the Arabic translations. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9346 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: OK. They're all Arabic translations? 2 MR. RUHNKE: There's some English through it, but 3 they're primarily Arabic translations, yes. 4 THE COURT: And the parties agree that they're 5 received -- are the underlying recordings being received at 6 all? 7 MR. RUHNKE: We will offer them -- there's a 8 stipulation, I believe, that covers the underlying recordings 9 already, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: OK. So the transcripts are received in 11 evidence. To the extent that they are translations from the 12 Arabic, they're evidence. 13 As I've explained the use of transcripts, to the 14 extent that they are English, they are an aid to the ability of 15 the jurors to listen to the underlying recordings. And I've 16 already given you an explanation and a long instruction, and 17 I'll repeat it again in my final instructions, about the 18 difference between Arabic -- transcripts of underlying 19 recordings that are in Arabic, which are received in evidence, 20 and transcripts of underlying recordings which are in English, 21 which are received as an aid to the jury's listening to the 22 transcripts. 23 In addition, these exhibits are not admitted for the 24 truth of any of the contents of the exhibits. Mr. Yousry's 25 statements are admitted only as evidence of his knowledge, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9347 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 intent or state of mind. And statements by others which are 2 contained in the exhibits are admitted only for their effect, 3 if any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 4 All right. 5 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, at this point what we 6 propose to do is to read to the jury selected excerpts from 7 what is contained in the exhibits that your Honor just 8 admitted. And I'd ask Mr. Fanjou and Mr. Nepper to step 9 forward and help me in that. 10 The first excerpt we seek to offer is MY1206X3. And 11 that will be displayed, once your Honor gives permission to do 12 that, on the jurors' screen. 13 THE COURT: All right. This is simply a part of 14 MY1206, which is already admitted in evidence. Are you seeking 15 to admit 1206X3 separately? 16 MR. RUHNKE: No, your Honor. There's no need to, 17 because the full conversations are already in. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. RUHNKE: And if we may display that with the 20 Court's permission. 21 THE COURT: Yes, and you may read it. 22 MR. RUHNKE: I'm going to does that Mr. Fanjou read 23 the part of Abdeen Jabara. 24 THE COURT: You should indicate the date. 25 MR. RUHNKE: OK, I will. I will, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9348 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Mr. Fanjou will read the part of Abdeen Jabara. 2 Mr. Nepper will read the part of Mr. Yousry. And I'll read the 3 part of Omar Abdel Rahman. 4 This is a call dated June 25, 2000, and it's one of 5 the prison calls. If we can begin by reading, starting with 6 Mr. Fanjou reading Mr. Jabara's part. 7 (At this point, Exhibit 1206X3, in evidence, was 8 displayed and read to the jury) 9 MR. RUHNKE: And that's the end of that excerpt. 10 Your Honor, next we'd like to play or display to the 11 jury, beginning at line 16 from Government Exhibit 1733, and 12 display it to the jury. If I could just check what the date of 13 that conversation is. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. RUHNKE: The date of that conversation is 16 October 20 of 2000. And, again, if we could have the same 17 gentlemen back up here to read these parts. I'm sorry, just 18 Mr. Nepper. 19 Mr. Nepper will read the part of Mr. Yousry. I will 20 read the part of Abdel Rahman. Starting at line 16. If we 21 could have it displayed, with the Court's permission. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. RUHNKE: If we could highlight starting at line 24 16, please. You can't? OK. 25 We're just going to read starting at line 16 with -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9349 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Mr. Jabara begins. I'm sorry, that's me. This is in English. 2 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1733, in evidence, 3 was displayed and read to the jury) 4 MR. RUHNKE: And that's the end of that excerpt, your 5 Honor, at this time. 6 Next we're going to read from MY1231X1, MY1231X1. And 7 if I could have Mr. Fanjou back up here. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Again, Mr. Fanjou will read the part of 10 Mr. Jabara. Mr. Nepper read the part of Mr. Yousry. I'll read 11 the part of Omar Abdel Rahman. 12 And may we display and mark 1231X1, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. RUHNKE: If we could highlight the text part, 15 1231X1. 16 Your Honor, this is a call dated June 11, 2001. 17 1231X1 is from a call dated June 11, 2001, begins with 18 Mr. Jabara. 19 (At this point, Exhibit 1231X1, in evidence, was 20 displayed and read to the jury) 21 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, next, with the Court's 22 permission, we'd like to display and read from -- read 1240X1. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Which is a call dated October 5, 2001. 25 Can we display it, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9350 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. RUHNKE: And, again, I'll ask the same parties to 3 read the same roles. I'll read Sheikh Rahman. 4 (At this point, Exhibit 1240X1, in evidence, was 5 displayed and read to the jury) 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, that completes that excerpt. 7 We now would like to read from an excerpt designated 8 MY1207X1. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. RUHNKE: And may we display 1207X1, which is a 11 prison call that took place on August 1, 2000. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. RUHNKE: And highlight the text. I'll read the 14 part of Mr. Rahman and Mr. Nepper can read the part of 15 Mr. Yousry. 16 (At this point, Exhibit 1207X1, in evidence, was 17 displayed and read to the jury) 18 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we'd like to play an 19 excerpt from 1243, and it's marked 1243X1, very brief excerpt. 20 And the date of the call is October 26, 2001. 21 And, again, I will read the parts of Sheikh Rahman. 22 Mr. Nepper will read Mr. Yousry's part. There's a very brief 23 reference to Mr. Jabara, which I will also read. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. RUHNKE: May we display that, 1243X. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9351 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. Yes, you may. 2 MR. RUHNKE: It will take a second, your Honor. If we 3 could just highlight the text on that. Begins with Omar Abdel 4 Rahman. 5 (At this point, Exhibit 1243X, in evidence, was 6 displayed and read to the jury) 7 MR. RUHNKE: And, again, that's the end of that brief 8 excerpt. 9 We'd next like to play another excerpt from that 10 same -- I'm sorry, another excerpt from I think the same 11 conversation, 1243X2. Again, this is a call on October 26, 12 2001. May we display it? 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. RUHNKE: It begins with Sheikh Rahman. 15 (At this point, Exhibit 1243X2, in evidence, was 16 displayed and read to the jury) 17 MR. RUHNKE: And that's the end of that brief excerpt, 18 your Honor. 19 Next we'd like to display and read MY1244X1 from a 20 call that took place on October 2, 2001. I'll read Sheikh 21 Rahman's part and the brief attribution to Mr. Jabara. 22 May we display it, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 (At this point, Exhibit MY1244X1, in evidence, was 25 displayed and read to the jury) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9352 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, next we'd like to read 2 from MY1218X2, which is from a prison call dated September 15, 3 2001. Let me just be sure I've got the right one. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, 1218X2. If we could have that 6 displayed, with the Court's permission. 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. RUHNKE: And I'll read the part attributed to 9 Ramsey Clark and also Omar Abdel Rahman. 10 (At this point, Exhibit 1218X2, in evidence, was 11 displayed and read to the jury) 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we'd like to read an 13 excerpt that's designated MY1221X3. Again, it's from the 14 legal -- the prison calls. This one's from October 13, 2000. 15 And I'd like to -- could I display it and read it to 16 the jury, your Honor, if I may. 17 THE COURT: OK. 18 MR. RUHNKE: In this call I'll read the part of 19 Mr. Schilling, and the other parts remain the same. Mr. Nepper 20 will read Mr. Yousry, and I'll also read Sheikh Rahman. 21 (At this point, Exhibit MY1221X3, in evidence, was 22 displayed and read to the jury) 23 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we'd like to display and 24 read for the jury 1241X3, which is another excerpt from these 25 weekly calls. This one is dated October 12, 2001. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9353 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 And Mr. Nepper will read Mr. Yousry's part, and I'll 2 read Mr. Sheikh Rahman's part. 3 May we display it, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 (At this point, Exhibit 1241X3, in evidence, was 6 displayed and read to the jury) 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we'd like to display and 8 read to the jury 1248X2, which is, again, an excerpt from the 9 weekly calls, this one dated December 13, 2001. 10 May we display it, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. RUHNKE: And I will read the parts of Sheikh 13 Rahman and of Mr. Jabara. 14 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1248X2, in 15 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9354 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we are going to read and 2 display to the jury, with your permission, MY-1252-X1, which is 3 from a weekly phone call dated January 11, 2002. 4 May I display it, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. RUHNKE: And I will ask that -- I will read the 7 part of Mr. Jabara and Sheikh Rahman, and Mr. Knepper will read 8 the part of Mr. Yousry. 9 (Whereupon Defendant's Exhibit MY-1252-X1, in 10 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 11 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we would like to read 12 and display MY--1236-X2, which is an excerpt from call that 13 took place on July 23, 2001. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. RUHNKE: In this excerpt it appears to be just 16 Mr. Yousry and Sheikh Rahman, so Sheikh Rahman begins. 17 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY--1236-X2, in 18 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we would like to play 20 and display Defendant's Exhibit MY--1216-X2 which is a call 21 that occurs on September 5, 2000. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. RUHNKE: And again, it appears to be just 24 Mr. Yousry and Sheikh Rahman and it begins with Sheikh Rahman. 25 (whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY--1216-X2, in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9355 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this point we would like 3 to display and read to the jury Defendant's Exhibit MY-1218-X1, 4 which is a transcript -- 5 THE COURT: Hold on. It's about 11:00 and it is 6 probably a convenient time for us to take a break. 7 MR. RUHNKE: That's fine, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Let's take 10 minutes. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 10 instruction. Please, don't talk about this case at all. 11 Please remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all 12 of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law, and you have 13 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 14 Have a good break. 15 (Jury not present) 16 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. Can I talk to 17 the lawyers, briefly? 18 (Page 9356 SEALED by order of the Court) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9357 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 (In open court) 2 (Recess) 3 (Pages 9358-9364 SEALED by order of the Court) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9365 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Mr. Yousry is on 5 the stand. 6 Mr. Fletcher? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 8 are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this time we would like to 12 display and read to the jury Defendant's Exhibit MY-1218-X1. 13 It is from a weekly call, September 15, 2000. 14 May we display it, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. RUHNKE: It begins with Sheikh Rahman, which I 17 will read. Your Honor, I am sorry. I will read the brief 18 parts attributed to Ramsey Clark in this conversation. 19 So, beginning with Sheikh Rahman. 20 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1218-X1, in 21 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 22 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with the Court's permission 23 we would like to read and display MY-1205-X1, which is a call 24 dated July 21, 2000. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9366 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Let me check the participants of this 2 call, your Honor, if I can. I will read both Mr. Jabara and 3 Sheikh Rahman, and Mr. Knepper will continue to read 4 Mr. Yousry. 5 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1205-X1, in 6 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 7 MR. RUHNKE: That completes that segment, your Honor. 8 Next we would like to read an excerpt identified as MY-1247-X1, 9 which is a conversation during the weekly calls that took place 10 on December 7 of 2001. I will just check the participants. I 11 will read Mr. Jabara's part. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. RUHNKE: And also Sheikh Rahman's part. 14 If we can have that displayed, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 (Whereupon, MY-1247-X1, in evidence, was displayed and 17 read for the jury) 18 MR. RUHNKE: That's the end of that excerpt. 19 Your Honor, with the Court's permission, we would like 20 to read and display MY-1254-X1, which is a call dated January 21 25, 2002. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. RUHNKE: I will read the part of Jabara and Sheikh 24 Rahman, and Mr. Knepper will read Mr. Yousry. 25 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1254-X1, in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9367 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the final excerpt I would 3 like to read from the 1200 series is identified as 1263-X1, it 4 is a phone call that takes place on March 29, 2002. And I will 5 read the part of Mr. Jabara. Let me see for a minute if the 6 Sheikh is in here at all. I will read the part of both 7 Mr. Jabara and Sheikh Rahman. It begins with Mr. Jabara. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. RUHNKE: We will have that displayed and 10 highlighted. 11 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1263-X1, in 12 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 13 MR. RUHNKE: That completes the reading of that 14 excerpt and the reading of the 1200 series, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 BY MR. RUHNKE: 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, in terms of prison calls and the weekly calls, 18 how do these summaries stack up as far as being representative, 19 not representative, of the types of things that went on in the 20 calls? 21 A. They are representative of the protocol that we followed, 22 in general, during those calls. Getting approval before 23 telling the Sheikh things. The lawyers will take out things, 24 add things. All that. 25 So, they are representative of the process. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9368 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Now, we have in evidence the both Arabic and English 2 language versions of your notebooks and we have seen in 3 evidence, so far, examples of things being approved and 4 examples of things being disapproved. If you were to look 5 through your notebooks, would you see more examples of that? 6 A. Yes, I would. 7 Q. How many, if you flipped through those notebooks, of 8 approvals and disapprovals, would you find? 9 A. I can't really give you an estimate but there are hundreds 10 I believe, at least. 11 Q. And regarding your own state of mind, when an attorney said 12 that you could read a certain article or not read a certain 13 article, or that a letter was approved or not approved, as far 14 as it affected your state of mind, what did you believe about 15 the attorneys? 16 A. I believed that the attorney cleared that and that it's all 17 right for me to do it so I did that. 18 Q. Mr. Yousry, I am now going to direct your attention to the 19 May 19, 2000 prison visit, okay? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. May 19. On May 19 and May 20, that year, did you have a 22 chance to travel to Rochester to meet with Sheikh Rahman? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Refresh my recollection, who was the attorney who 25 accompanied you on that trip? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9369 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 A. The attorney in charge was Ms. Lynne Stewart. 2 Q. During the course of that visit, was the Sheikh asked to 3 dictate a reply to a letter? 4 A. Yes, he was. 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9370 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. And in terms of regular proceeding, not regular proceeding, 3 how usual or unusual was it for the Sheikh to receive a letter 4 then dictate the response? 5 A. It was something that happened several times before. So it 6 was -- to me, it was something very ordinary. 7 Q. Prior to the visit did you have a conversation, did you and 8 Ms. Stewart have a conversation regarding anything she was 9 planning to do in connection with the Sheikh's case? 10 A. Well, she, Ms. Stewart, was concerned that the Sheikh's 11 case was -- 12 MS. BAKER: Objection. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. Did Ms. Stewart -- instead of telling us what you think 15 Ms. Stewart was concerned about, what did she say to you? What 16 was the substance of the conversation? 17 A. She -- 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would ask for an instruction 19 that it's offered only for Mr. Yousry's state of mind. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Fine. 21 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, what Ms. -- 22 the witness' testimony about what Ms. Stewart said is not 23 admitted for the truth of anything asserted but for its effect 24 on the witness' state of mind. 25 Q. In sum and substance, what were you told? What were the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9371 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 thrust of what you were told by Ms. Stewart; not what you think 2 she meant, but what you were told? 3 A. She was concerned about the Sheikh's case, and she 4 wanted to revive the case. And she was thinking of issuing 5 some press statement -- 6 Q. And what -- 7 A. -- involving the Sheikh's case. 8 Q. In terms of the visit, when did that conversation take 9 place; before, during or after the visit? 10 A. On our way there, actually, when I was reading her the 11 letters and stuff like that. 12 Q. And at that time did you have -- the conversation continue 13 regarding what might be any reaction forthcoming from her issue 14 of the press statement? 15 A. Yes. Ms. Stewart was concerned that the restriction of the 16 client might be tightening or -- 17 MS. BAKER: Objection. 18 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, what the objection is and what I'm going to ask 20 you to do is don't tell me what you think Ms. Stewart, what her 21 state of mind was. Just let us know pretty much what the words 22 were that she -- how she explained it to you, OK. So let me 23 ask the question again. 24 As it regards your own state of mind and point of 25 view, were there further discussions regarding what might be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9372 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 the aftermath of holding a press conference? 2 A. Yes, there were. 3 Q. And what did Ms. Stewart, especially if you can summarize 4 her words, tell you about what any concerns were you might or 5 might not have had? 6 A. That the government might issue a further restriction on 7 the Sheikh; that the government might cut Ms. Stewart off, you 8 know, the Sheikh's case for a few weeks or so. 9 Q. Was a particular word used that described what might 10 happen? 11 A. Yeah, some trouble. 12 Q. And did you have a reaction in that conversation to what 13 Ms. Stewart was telling you? 14 A. Yes, I did actually. I didn't see any reason why the 15 government should react in any way, since Mr. Clark and 16 Mr. Jabara had spoken to the press several times before and 17 issued several releases before. And nobody said anything. So 18 it was just -- you know, to me it was just like -- that 19 shouldn't happen. 20 Q. During that visit, both tape-recorded and videotaped, did 21 you actually use -- to the best of your recollection, did you 22 actually use the word trouble? 23 A. I don't believe I did. I heard the tape several times. I 24 started to say something like in tr-- and then I stopped. So 25 there was no clear word to me. I heard the tape several times. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9373 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 I think what I was saying was interrupted, but I didn't finish 2 that word. 3 Q. And on a transcript, when you cannot get a clear word as an 4 interpreter, what would you do? 5 A. I put UI down, unintelligible. 6 Q. I'll fast-forward this a bit. You testified about writing 7 down the Sheikh's response to this letter. What, if anything, 8 was the next step in the process when the Sheikh would dictate 9 a letter to you? 10 A. Well, the next step usually is that I translate whatever 11 the Sheikh dictated to me to the lawyer in charge. And the 12 lawyer in charge then would have a meeting with Mr. Sattar, if 13 you want to release something to the family, if you want to 14 release something to the lawyers in Egypt. So they had their 15 own meetings afterwards. I did not participate in this 16 process. 17 Q. In terms of the process leading maybe to an approval or 18 disapproval by the attorneys, what role did you have to play in 19 that process? 20 A. I just translated what I was dictated, and that's about it. 21 That's it. 22 Q. Do you recall a discussion during Ms. Stewart's 23 cross-examination about a discussion about political parties 24 that you had with Sheikh Rahman? 25 A. Yes, I do. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9374 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And what was the background of that discussion, as you 2 recall it? 3 A. I believe Ms. Stewart was asked about a visit that took 4 place on March of 1999, a couple of questions that I asked 5 Ms. Stewart's permission to ask the Sheikh for my dissertation. 6 And Ms. Stewart said that there was an ongoing discussion about 7 that particular issue. 8 And I believe a couple of months earlier there were a 9 couple of letters from Egypt to Mr. Clark, because Mr. Clark 10 was going to visit Egypt. And the lawyers in Egypt wanted 11 Mr. Clark to get the Sheikh's reply to these questions before 12 Mr. Clark travels to Egypt. However, those letters came in 13 when Mr. Clark was in Egypt already. So the questions were 14 asked, we had answers dictated. Mr. Jabara asked me when I go 15 on that trip with Ms. Stewart, just to get more clear answers, 16 because he needed to communicate that to the lawyers in Egypt. 17 Q. And what happened? 18 A. So basically that it had a double aim to it. I used it for 19 my own dissertation and I as well gave Mr. Jabara what he was 20 looking for. 21 Q. And once you passed that information on to the attorneys, 22 who -- 23 MS. BAKER: Objection. Assumes a fact not in 24 evidence. 25 MR. RUHNKE: You're right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9375 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. When you got back to this particular visit, was it March of 2 1999? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Was there any further discussion about the issue of 5 political parties with anyone? 6 A. Yes, there was. We usually have a meeting, and the lawyer 7 who is going to be in charge of the particular phone calls 8 usually is not the lawyer that accompanied me on the trip, 9 because they take like a day or two off, something like that. 10 So I have to update them of what happened and what took place. 11 And that lawyer was Mr. Jabara. So I just, you know, gave him 12 all the information. And I don't know what Mr. Jabara did with 13 that. 14 Q. Are you familiar in the indictment with a particular 15 allegation concerning the visit that took place with Sheikh 16 Rahman on February 18 and 19 of 2000, a particular allegation? 17 A. Yes, I am. 18 Q. And what is your understanding of that particular 19 allegation? 20 A. The allegation I believe the word that they use, failed to 21 attempt to deliver a message. 22 Q. And what is your understanding of that allegation made? 23 A. The allegation basically said that there was a message to 24 be delivered to the Sheikh, and it was not delivered because 25 the lawyer speaks Arabic, or something of this nature. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9376 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And I wanted to discuss that particular allegation for a 2 bit and what occurred during that visit. 3 Initially I'd like to display call transcript 4 MY1730X1, if I can. 5 THE COURT: All right. In evidence? 6 MR. RUHNKE: I'm going to offer -- I'm sorry. It has 7 not been objected to by the government. I would like to offer 8 MY1730X1. 9 THE COURT: Is this -- 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, no objection, subject to the 11 same limiting instruction as earlier. It's a call on 12 Mr. Yousry's phone. 13 THE COURT: OK. Is this a transcript of Arabic? 14 MR. RUHNKE: It's a transcript from Arabic and 15 translated into English, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. All right. 17 Ladies and gentlemen, MY1730X is received in evidence. 18 And it's subject to the same limiting instruction that I've 19 given you with respect to the series of transcripts in the 1700 20 series, MY1701 through MY1730. 21 Mr. Yousry's statements are not admitted for their 22 truth but only as evidence of his knowledge, intent or state of 23 mind. And statements by any others are not admitted for their 24 truth, but only for their effect, if any, on Mr. Yousry's 25 knowledge, intent or state of mind. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9377 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, for the record, I believe the 2 exhibit is MY1730X1. 3 MR. RUHNKE: That's what I thought I said, your Honor. 4 If I said something different, I apologize. 5 THE COURT: MY1730X1. 6 (Defendant's Exhibit MY1730X1 received in evidence) 7 MR. RUHNKE: If I could have Mr. -- it's a very brief 8 call. If I could have Mr. Knepper and Mr. Fanjou come forward 9 to read the parts. It's a call between Mr. Yousry and Ahmed 10 Abdel Sattar. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. RUHNKE: The date of the call is December 9, 1999, 13 at 7:58 in the evening. And I'll just ask one background 14 question of Mr. Yousry. 15 BY MR. RUHNKE: 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, in or about December of 1999, were there 17 discussions underway about setting up a visit with Sheikh 18 Rahman? 19 A. Yes, there were. 20 MR. RUHNKE: OK. If we could just read this brief 21 excerpt, your Honor, then I'll ask further questions. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 (At this point, Exhibit MY1730X1, in evidence, was 24 displayed and read to the jury) 25 MR. RUHNKE: That's the end of that excerpt. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9378 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, why did you prefer -- I'm sorry. 3 In the conversation you make a statement that you 4 prefer to do the visit with Abdeen, Mr. Jabara. What was the 5 reason that you preferred to do it that way? 6 A. Well, there were several reasons actually. First, that 7 it's always easier to go with Mr. Jabara because he speaks 8 Arabic. And I don't have to go back and forth, back and forth 9 or -- so, you know, it's easier to do it when Jabara is there. 10 Second, Ms. Stewart was busy. She wasn't able to give 11 us an exact time when she want to go and stuff. 12 And third, I had a few questions for my dissertation. 13 And, you know, my own selfish reason. I just wanted to go as 14 fast as possible, and I thought that this would be my last 15 visit, actually, to the Sheikh. 16 Q. Why -- what made you think this would be your last visit? 17 What was your thinking that this would be your last visit with 18 the Sheikh? 19 A. I discussed that with Mr. Clark earlier. It was becoming a 20 burden on me; one translator, one interpreter, working with 21 four lawyers and trying to accommodate four lawyers' schedules. 22 I had my own work and I had my own dissertation to finish. So 23 I wanted to cut down at least. I informed Mr. Clark of that 24 and, you know, those were my reasons. 25 Q. And based on your knowledge now through discovery you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9379 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 received following your arrest on April 9, 2002, are you aware 2 whether or not the February 18 portion of the visit was 3 recorded or not recorded? 4 A. No, it was not recorded. 5 Q. And what was the first date that any prison visit was 6 actually recorded? 7 A. February 19, 2000. 8 Q. This particular visit lasted how many days? 9 A. Two days. 10 Q. And in your notebook did you make notes about what occurred 11 during the February 18 part? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with the Court's permission, 14 I would like to have displayed from the notebook, which is in 15 evidence, page 734. I'll tell you which lines. It's from 16 Defense Exhibit MY1004CT. 17 And if we could just display, beginning the Arabic 18 page at page 734. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Could we display that. 21 For some reason we're getting a blue screen. Your 22 Honor, could we just switch to the Elmo at this point. I'll 23 turn on the Elmo and I think we can move along. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 - - - - - SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9380 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm going to display, I hope, page 734 of your 3 notebook. I'll zoom out. 4 In any event, can you see on your monitor page 734 of 5 your notebook? Do you see it? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. And can you tell us, I'm looking in the upper right-hand 8 corner of 734, what the date is that that conversation took 9 place? 10 A. It's Tuesday, February 1, 2000. 11 Q. OK. And this is prior to your visit on February 18, 2000, 12 correct? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. And what is the subject matter of what is being requested 15 of you? If I could display 734, I'll display the English -- 16 I'm sorry. 17 What is being asked of you, or what is the topic on 18 this particular set of subjects? 19 A. Well, presently the Sheikh client was told that his 20 daughter in Egypt, someone had proposed to his daughter in 21 Egypt and they wanted his opinion. 22 Q. And did the subject of the daughter's opinions -- 23 daughter's marriage and other topics come up during the visit 24 on February 19 -- I'm sorry, February 18, 2000? 25 A. Yes, it did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9381 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And what was what came up during the February 19 -- 2 February 18 visit? 3 A. Well, the person who wanted to marry the Sheikh's daughter 4 basically was approved by the Sheikh's daughter, but his son, 5 his older son in Egypt, did not approve of that marriage. And 6 the Sheikh said if she likes him, she can marry him, basically 7 is what he said. 8 Q. Now I'm going to direct your attention to page 752 of your 9 notebook and display the Arabic part and then the English part 10 of 752. 11 What is on page 752 of the notebook? 12 A. That appears to be parts of the notes that I took during 13 that visit. 14 Q. And is there reference in there at all to the subject 15 matter that you're talking about? 16 A. There is some reference to the daughter, the top three 17 lines. 18 Q. Was there discussions during that visit about the status of 19 any of the mosques or other houses of worship that -- 20 A. Yes, there was. 21 Q. And what were the discussions during the visit of that? 22 A. Well, on February 18, I believe, the Sheikh asked Jabara if 23 he can inquire about what's going on in certain mosques that he 24 used to preach in in New Jersey and in New York. And 25 Mr. Jabara approved of that request and promised that he would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9382 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 try to find out what happened and inform the Sheikh the next 2 day. 3 Q. And looking at the screen, still looking at the Arabic 4 side, just refresh my recollection: Who was the attorney that 5 actually accompanied you on the February 19, February 20, 2000, 6 visit? 7 A. Mr. Abdeen Jabara. 8 Q. And does your notebook, at least the page that we're 9 looking at, reflect approvals for certain things by Mr. Jabara? 10 A. Yes, it does. 11 Q. Is that in the upper left-hand corner of what we're looking 12 at on the screen? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. And after the visit that took place on February 18, 2000, 15 where did you and Mr. Jabara go that evening? 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Could you -- a moment ago your 17 questioning was phrased in terms of the February 19th and 18 February 20th visit. 19 MR. RUHNKE: I'm sorry. It should be February 18 and 20 19. If I said 19 and 20, that was in error. 21 Q. Let's go back a little bit then. How long did this visit 22 last, this particular visit to Rochester? 23 A. Two days. 24 Q. And what two days were those? 25 A. The 18th and the 19th of February, 2000. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9383 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. After the conclusion of the February 18 visit, which was 2 not recorded, where did you and Mr. Jabara go that evening? 3 A. After we had dinner, I believe we went to Mr. Jabara's room 4 in the hotel, where Mr. Jabara called Mr. Ahmed Abdel Sattar in 5 order to relay to him the Sheikh's request. 6 Q. And who approved or relayed to Mr. Sattar what the Sheikh 7 wanted to -- the answers to the Sheikh's questions? 8 A. Actually, it was Mr. Jabara on the phone. It wasn't I at 9 the time. 10 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, I'd like to read a 11 stipulation, if I may. It's marked Defendant's 12 Exhibit MY Stip 7. And if I could display it on the screen as 13 well. 14 THE COURT: All right. MY Stip 7 received in 15 evidence. 16 (Defendant's Exhibit MY Stip 7 received in evidence) 17 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 18 The parties hereby stipulate and agree to the 19 following: 20 If called as a witnesses at trial, a qualified expert 21 Arabic-to-English translators would testify that, in his 22 opinion, the English translations of the conversations set 23 forth in Defendant's Exhibits MY2000T through 2003T are true 24 and accurate translations from Arabic into English of the 25 underlying Arabic conversations. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9384 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Your Honor, as it turns out, we're only offering 2001, 2 2002 and 2003T. 3 BY MR. RUHNKE: 4 Q. But have you, Mr. Yousry, looked at transcripts of 5 conversations that occurred that evening from the hotel? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And do those accurately set forth what occurred during your 8 telephone conversations on the evening of February 18, 2000? 9 A. Yes, they do. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we'd like to display for the 11 jury MY Exhibit 2001T. 2001T. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I speak with Mr. Ruhnke 13 for a minute. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. RUHNKE: There's another stipulation, your Honor, 16 that I'd like to read and publish to the jury. It's 17 Defendant's Exhibit MY Stip 8. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. RUHNKE: If I could display it and just read it. 20 THE COURT: MY Stip 8 received in evidence. 21 (Defendant's Exhibit MY Stip 8 received in evidence) 22 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. The parties hereby 23 stipulate and agree that, if called as a witness, Special Agent 24 Steven Sorrells of the FBI would testify as follows: 25 He prepared a CD which he marked with his initials SES SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9385 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 and the date 11/19/04 on which is now -- 2 THE COURT: And -- 3 MR. RUHNKE: And which is now marked as Defense 4 Exhibit MY5. The CD contains four audio files that he 5 retrieved from a magneto-optical disk containing audio files 6 that were recorded by the FBI using the Lockheed Martin system 7 and then converted to .voc files. The four audio files contain 8 true and accurate recordings of the calls reflected in the 9 transcripts marked MY2000T through MY2003T. 10 Two, he retrieved and copied the audio files to the CD 11 using the same procedure and equipment that Scott Kerns 12 described in his testimony. 13 And it's signed by all the parties and dated 14 November 22, today's date, 2004. 15 And with that, your Honor, I'd like permission to 16 display, to put on the screen defense Exhibit MY2001T. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't believe that the 18 transcripts have been offered and admitted. 19 MR. RUHNKE: That's right. I'd like to offer the 20 transcripts as pursuant to a stipulated here. I'd like to 21 offer the transcripts. 22 MS. BAKER: No objection, subject to the same limiting 23 instruction as other recorded calls. 24 THE COURT: All right. But -- OK, the transcript is 25 an Arabic into English? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9386 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: MY2001 -- and by the way, are you offering 3 the underlying -- 4 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor, I will be offering the 5 underlying audio -- no, we're not offering the underlying audio 6 file. The stipulation tells us we're OK, so we're not offering 7 the underlying audio file. The audio files already exist in 8 evidence. 9 MS. BAKER: The audio files are not already in 10 evidence. 11 MR. RUHNKE: At an appropriate time we're working this 12 out, if that's all right with your Honor. 13 THE COURT: All right. MY2001T is received in 14 evidence. 15 (Defendant's Exhibit MY2001T received in evidence) 16 THE COURT: And, ladies and gentlemen, the transcript 17 is not admitted for the truth of any of the contents of the 18 transcript. Mr. Yousry's statements are admitted only as 19 evidence of his knowledge, intent or state of mind and the 20 statements by others are admitted only for their effect, if 21 any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 22 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at the same time, just to -- 23 because they're very brief conversations, we'd also offer 24 MY2002T, MY2003T, which are all subject to the exact same 25 limiting instruction your Honor just gave. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9387 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. No objection, MY2002T, MY2003T 2 received in evidence. 3 (Defendant's Exhibit MY2002T, MY2003T received in 4 evidence) 5 THE COURT: And they're subject to the same limiting 6 instruction I just gave you, ladies and gentlemen. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Now, if I could ask Mr. Fanjou and 8 Mr. Knepper to step forward and just read the appropriate 9 parts. If we could display it on the screen. 10 If I could just have a second, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. RUHNKE: I'll play the part of the English 13 language hotel operator. I'll ask Mr. Fanjou to read the part 14 of Mr. Sattar, and then Mr. Knepper to read the part of 15 Mr. Yousry. And they're the only participants in this 16 particular conversation, which is MY2001T. 17 (At this point, Exhibit MY2001t, in evidence, was 18 displayed and read to the jury) 19 MR. RUHNKE: Abrupt end to the call. 20 We now display the next transcript in the series, 21 2002T. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 (At this point, Exhibit 2002T, in evidence, was 24 displayed and read to the jury) 25 MR. RUHNKE: Abrupt end to call. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9388 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 And now if we could display and read 2003T, your 2 Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 (At this point, Exhibit 2003T, in evidence, was 5 displayed and read to the jury) 6 MR. RUHNKE: That completes that call. 7 BY MR. RUHNKE: 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, a couple of questions about the segment that we 9 just heard. 10 First of all, was Mr. Jabara there through the whole 11 conversation you were having with Mr. Sattar? 12 A. No, he was not. 13 Q. And the kinds of information you were conveying to 14 Mr. Sattar, where did that information come from? 15 A. Well, the information was an aid to Mr. Jabara through the 16 meeting earlier that day in the morning. The Sheikh wanted 17 some -- you know, to know some information about the mosques 18 and stuff. And then he asked Mr. Jabara if he can do that, and 19 Mr. Jabara approved that it was. 20 Q. And was Mr. Jabara in the room for part of the time? 21 A. You mean at the hotel room? 22 Q. In the room where this last phone call was taking place. 23 A. Yes, he was. 24 Q. And at some point obviously on the tape you can hear him 25 leaving? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9389 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yeah, he left, too. 2 Q. Did you change the nature of your conversation at all after 3 Mr. Jabara left? 4 A. No, absolutely not. I was told by Mr. Jabara to ask Ahmed, 5 Mr. Sattar, certain things. I did. I got the answers for him 6 and that was it. 7 Q. And what was the plan to do with those answers? 8 A. In the morning before we went to see the client, Sheikh 9 Omar Abdel Rahman, I gave the answers to Mr. Abdeen Jabara. 10 And he approved that that stuff should be told to the Sheikh. 11 Q. In the conversation you've just told -- I'm sorry, 12 conversation we've just listed to -- sorry, conversation that 13 was just read to us, you make reference to the greetings. What 14 are you talking about? 15 A. To Ahmed? 16 Q. The greetings. 17 A. Oh, greetings, right. Those were normal parts of -- 18 there's cultural differences. Greetings are very important in 19 the Arab culture. A lot of people send their regards to the 20 Sheikh. Some people send them to Ahmed. Ahmed Abdel Sattar 21 refers that to the lawyers. They approve of them, and I tell 22 the Sheikh about it. So it was done with all the lawyers. 23 Q. There's also in the conversation a reference to certain 24 people who are -- I believe the word is salifas, S-A-L- -- 25 A. Salifas. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9390 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. What is that? 2 A. Well, these are believed to be -- they believe themselves 3 to be the true guardian of the Muslim tradition, those who 4 follow the early tradition of the prophet. 5 Q. And there's also a reference in that last conversation 6 where you say to Mr. Sattar or ask Mr. Sattar, why are you 7 speaking classical Arabic to me, Ahmed? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. What is that a reference to? 10 A. Mr. Sattar was talking to me for I believe the last year, 11 for sentences he was relaying to me, they were in classical 12 Arabic; not an everyday language that we speak. So I just 13 thought it was strange. 14 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, I'm going to move on to 15 another topic right now. And this would be a very convenient 16 time to break. 17 THE COURT: I wonder if we could at least start the 18 topic until Mr. Fletcher just tells me that the lunch has come. 19 MR. RUHNKE: OK. Could we have displayed on the 20 screen PS363A in evidence. 21 Q. And, Mr. Yousry, you've seen this exhibit before. Is this 22 the -- 23 THE COURT: I'm -- it's Government Exhibit 363A. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: OK. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9391 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: It originally introduced as a government 2 exhibit. We marked a copy as a demonstrative exhibit at the 3 time through the table there -- 4 THE COURT: The reason I raise it, both the reporter 5 and I heard PS rather than Government Exhibit 363A. 6 MR. RUHNKE: It's Government Exhibit 363A. 7 BY MR. RUHNKE: 8 Q. In any event, we've seen this exhibit before, Mr. Yousry. 9 This shows what? 10 A. This shows the conference school where the meetings -- 11 meetings that took place on February 18, February 19, during 12 the visit to Rochester Minnesota. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if the lunch is -- 14 THE COURT: Yes. Why don't we break now until 2:00. 15 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 16 instructions. Please, don't talk about the case at all, and 17 always remember to keep an open mind until you've heard all of 18 the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, you've gone to 19 the jury room to begin your deliberations. 20 Have a good lunch. I look forward to seeing you after 21 lunch. 22 (Page 9392 sealed by order of the Court) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9393 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 2:10 p.m. 3 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 4 Mr. Belfiore is standing in for Mr. Fletcher this 5 afternoon. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Should I have Mr. Yousry take the stand, 7 your Honor? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Let's bring in the jury, please. 10 (Witness resumes the stand) 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9394 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 4 THE COURT: It's good to see you. 5 All right, Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 6 Mr. Belfiore. 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 8 are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 11 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, over the lunch hour did I ask you to locate, in 13 the notebooks that are in evidence, those pages that relate to 14 the February 18 and February 19, 2000 prison visit? 15 A. Yes, you did. 16 Q. And were you able to locate those entries? 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. Beginning with the February 18 prison visit, what pages in 19 your notebook corresponds with what took place on February 18, 20 2000? 21 A. Page 746. 22 Q. And what is the ending of page February 18, 2000? 23 A. For the same day it's page 753. 24 Q. And with regard to -- 25 MS. BAKER: May I ask which exhibit number, please? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9395 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: It is Exhibit 1004-CT. 2 Q. With regard to February 19, which pages in Exhibit 1004-CT 3 correspond with what took place on February 19, 2000? 4 A. It starts at page 754. 5 Q. And where does it end? 6 A. It ends on -- it ends on page 767. 7 Q. Now, sir, before we return to the visit room where we were 8 when we broke for lunch; on February 18 had there been 9 discussion at all, one way or another, about a press conference 10 or contacting press? 11 A. Yes, there was. 12 Q. And who participated in that discussion? What was the 13 nature of that discussion? 14 A. The participants were Mr. Jabara, myself as an interpreter, 15 and the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 16 Q. And in sum and substance, did Sheikh Rahman ask Mr. Jabara 17 to do something? 18 A. Well yes, he did. 19 Q. What did he ask Mr. Jabara to do? 20 A. He wanted to have Mr. Jabara have a press conference 21 regarding the Sheikh's view on the peace initiative. 22 Q. And what was Mr. Jabara's reply to that, as you recall? 23 A. Mr. Jabara said he is not going to do it because he was 24 concerned, he is the only lawyer that spoke Arabic and he -- 25 Mr. Jabara agreed with Mr. Clark that he wouldn't do that since SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9396 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 I was leaving and he needed somebody to do that that would 2 speak Arabic, and that's what he informed the Sheikh. 3 Q. When you said he wasn't going to do that because he needed 4 someone who spoke Arabic, was there any discussion of what 5 could happen if someone did hold a press conference? 6 MS. BAKER: Objection, your Honor. I ask for a 7 limiting instruction. 8 MR. RUHNKE: I agree, it is for a limited purpose, 9 your Honor. Yes. 10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, what someone said -- 11 the witness' testimony about what someone said to him is not 12 received for the truth of the matters asserted but rather for 13 the effect, if any, on the witness' state of mind. 14 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 15 Q. And what discussion was there about what could occur if 16 Mr. Jabara were to do what the Sheikh wanted? 17 A. Mr. Jabara was concerned that he might be cut off from 18 speaking to the Sheikh or further limitation would be put on 19 Mr. Jabara's access to the client. 20 Q. Now, going to your notebooks contained within Exhibit 21 1004-CT, I'm going to display page 746. Did you say that was 22 the starting page of February 19? 23 A. February 18; yes, it was. 24 MR. RUHNKE: And with the Court's permission, your 25 Honor, I would like to display that page, which is in evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9397 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. RUHNKE: If you put it on upside down it doesn't 3 work very well. 4 Q. Can you see what's in front of you as page 746 of your 5 notebook? 6 A. I see that, yes. 7 Q. Across the middle in the, with the double underlining on 8 that page, what is the Arabic that's written there? 9 A. Well, the top line says personal visit, Rochester, 10 Minnesota. The line under that says Friday, February 18, 2000. 11 Q. And that reflects the beginning of that meeting with Sheikh 12 Rahman? 13 A. Yes, it does. 14 Q. Now, you just made reference to the conversation about 15 holding a press conference, and I'm going to direct your 16 attention to page 752 of the notebook, is that still part of 17 the notebook from February 18, 2000? 18 A. Yes, it is. 19 Q. And I am first going to show you the Arabic side and then I 20 will show you, with the Court's permission, the English side. 21 May I display the Arabic side, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. RUHNKE: It is in evidence. Your Honor, may I 24 display the Arabic side? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9398 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: I'm sorry. 2 Q. And across the top of that do you see English writing? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. What does that say? 5 A. Well, if you want me to read it, This is approved by 6 Mr. Jabara, on the top right corner. And there is also, 7 Approved by Mr. Jabara, on the left top side of that particular 8 page. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Okay. 10 A. And there are a few lines in English, if you would like me 11 to read them, my own hand writing. 12 Q. It is not necessary to read them, they're in your hand 13 writing. 14 Generally speaking, what is the particular topic under 15 discussion where you see the English language displayed? 16 A. It was regarding the Sheikh's daughter's purported marriage 17 proposal. 18 Q. Was that the same daughter and the same marriage proposal 19 that we heard about in the phone call? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, I'm going to display the English side of that call, if 22 I may, of that notebook page and first of all. 23 Can we see the top of the notebook page? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Is that the same notebook page we were just discussing? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9399 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. As you look through the English language, do you see that 3 it's the reference to the marriage, the news about the mosques, 4 the Sheikh's dissertation; were these things that were 5 discussed on February 18? 6 A. Yes, they were. 7 Q. Now, I'm going to go to the bottom of notebook page 752 and 8 do you see on the bottom, I will try to zoom in a little bit -- 9 do you see on the bottom the translation, there is a reference 10 to, across the top about a book entitled, Al-Gama'a 11 al-Islamiyya? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. There is English language about forming a committee and 14 discussion about Usama, you fooled the people. You tell people 15 that your chickens are Islamically permitted but they are not. 16 That's the Islamic chicken guy from Brooklyn? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. At the bottom of the page, what is the English there? 19 Would you read that? 20 A. It says no, Sheikh, I cannot do all of this -- arrow 21 pointing up -- perform -- because Ramsey and I agreed). 22 Q. And what is that a reference to? 23 A. Well, that was Mr. Jabara informing the Sheikh that he had 24 an agreement with Mr. Ramsey Clark before he came to visit the 25 Sheikh that Mr. Jabara is not going to hold any press SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9400 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 conferences because he didn't want to be, his access with the 2 client to be restricted since the they knew I was trying to -- 3 I withdrew myself. 4 Q. Now on, that was the February 19th visit, if we can have 5 the visiting room picture displayed, photograph of the visiting 6 room. 7 THE COURT: Maybe while you are taking an opportunity 8 to put that up it is convenient for us to take a stretch break. 9 Q. Now this, as we established over and over again, is the 10 room where the interviews with Sheikh Rahman took place on 11 February 18 and February 19, 2000? 12 A. Yes, that's the room. Yes. 13 Q. When you visited Sheikh Rahman in May 19 and 20, 2000, 14 where does that visit take place? 15 A. The same room. 16 THE COURT: To the extent it is not clear, it is 17 Government Exhibit 363A that's being projected. 18 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. 19 Q. And the final prison visit in July 2001, where did that 20 take place? 21 A. I believe it took place in the same room. 22 Q. Now, taking your attention now to February 19, the next 23 day, this is the first time when a prison visit has been 24 recorded; at some point did Sheikh Rahman complain to you about 25 Mr. Jabara in any way? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9401 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. I'm not sure if there was a complaint but he said I do not 2 want to dictate in the presence of Mr. Abdeen. 3 MR. RUHNKE: At this point, your Honor, I would like 4 to read an oral stipulation which we have been revising a 5 little bit. We will get it to the Court in the final form but 6 here is the oral stipulation. 7 The parties hereby stipulate and agree to the 8 following: 9 1. If called as a witness, a paralegal employed to 10 work on this case, by counsel to Mohammed Yousry, would testify 11 that he took the original recordings in this case as introduced 12 in evidence as Government Exhibit 1700-C, and identified from 13 that DVD two segments corresponding to two particular sections 14 of Government Exhibit 1700-X and 1701X, which are the excerpts 15 of the transcripts of the prison visit of February 19, 2000. 16 The paralegal identified in paragraph 1 would testify 17 further that he took the original DVD of the recordings to a 18 commercial service and requested that an exact copy be made of 19 the segments described above such that the segments would 20 conform to the contents of the transcript of the combined 21 Arabic and English language recording. 22 3. The paralegal identified in paragraph 1 would 23 testify further that he listened to the excerpted recordings 24 with the assistance of a native speaker of the Arabic language 25 and the excerpted recordings accurately reflected what was on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9402 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 the original DVD, and that the excerpted recordings accurately 2 matched the transcript specified in paragraph 1 of this 3 stipulation. 4 The excerpted recordings are marked as defense 5 Exhibit -- I'm sorry, are marked as Exhibits GX-1700-MYA and GX 6 1701-MYA. 7 And your Honor, I have -- I would like to display the 8 exhibits on the witness stand and offer -- 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I speak with Mr. Ruhnke 10 for a minute? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 (Counsel conferring) 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we would amend that oral 14 stipulation to say that the paralegal began with two DVDs one 15 marked 1700C and one marked 1701-C, from which were produced 16 Defendant's Exhibit GX-1700-MYA and defense Exhibit 17 GX-1701-MYA, which are contained on a single CD. 18 And with the Court' permission, I would display the 19 CDs on the Elmo. 20 THE COURT: Before you do that, are you offering 21 Defendant's Exhibit Government Exhibit MY-1700-MYA and 22 1701-MYA? 23 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, I am, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: No objections -- 25 MS. BAKER: Your Honor -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9403 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: No? 2 MS. BAKER: No objection for demonstrative purposes. 3 These are excerpts of other exhibits that are already in 4 evidence. 5 MR. RUHNKE: That's correct, your Honor. 6 So, if I could just display these and hand them back 7 to Mr. Fanjul. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 So, solely for demonstrative purposes, Defendant's 10 Exhibit GX-1700 -- Defendant's Exhibit GX-1700-MYA and 11 Defendant's Exhibit GX-1701-MYA are admitted, solely as 12 demonstrative exhibits. 13 (Defendant's Exhibits GX-1700-MYA and GX-1701-MYA 14 received in evidence) 15 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. 16 Q. Now, what occurred leading up to the remark that you just 17 attributed to Sheikh Rahman that he could not dictate in front 18 of Mr. Abdeen? Where was Mr. Jabara when this occurred? 19 A. At that point Mr. Jabara, I believe, had to leave to get 20 coffee and he was out of the room. 21 Q. And while he was out of the room, had anybody asked you to 22 step out of the room or not leave you alone with the Sheikh? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you remain in the interview room -- that we have 25 seen -- with Sheikh Rahman? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9404 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, at this point we would 3 like to play those excerpts starting with the -- the first 4 excerpt only, Government Exhibit 1700-MYA, and have the 5 transcript displayed on the screen. The transcript is in, it 6 is an English language translation from the Arabic, some of it 7 is in English but most of it is in Arabic, and we are going to 8 ask that the jury put on its headsets and follow along with the 9 audio. 10 Mr. Yousry will indicate when it is time to change the 11 page, say simply "next", and we will display the next page. 12 Just a conversation in Arabic. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. RUHNKE: So we are going to have 1700-MYX 15 displayed, with the Court's permission. 16 THE COURT: MYA. 17 MR. RUHNKE: MYA, it is the transcript itself that is 18 being displayed. 19 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, put your headphones 20 on. 21 MR. RUHNKE: If we can just have the -- look at the 22 top part of the page and just have the CD begin to run when we 23 get to the bottom of the page. Mr. Yousry will simply say next 24 and we will know it is time to move to the next page. If we 25 can start the audio? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9405 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit GX 1700-MYA was 2 displayed and played for the jury) 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, we have a headphone 4 problem. 5 THE COURT: Stop and replace the headphones, please, 6 of those two jurors. Thank you. 7 Start at the top. 8 (Defendant's Exhibit GX 1700-MYA resumed) 9 MR. RUHNKE: Can we stop the audio at this point? 10 THE COURT: Stop, stop. 11 MR. RUHNKE: We will stop the audio at this point. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, during this period of time that we have just 15 heard this audio, had Mr. Jabara gone somewhere? 16 A. Yes, he did. 17 Q. Where had he told you he was going to go? 18 A. He was going to get some coffee. 19 MR. RUHNKE: Can we now have up again 366A, Government 20 Exhibit 366A, in evidence, please? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 23 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, looking again at this exhibit, this is 24 366A; in order to go get coffee, tell us again where Mr. Jabara 25 would have had to have gone on that tape? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9406 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Well, my understanding, I believe Mr. Jabara has to open 2 the door first, go out, make a right, go through a double door, 3 then make another left, go straight all the way to the end of 4 the cafeteria. 5 Q. And based on -- 6 MS. BAKER: Objection. Without foundation I would 7 move to strike that answer. 8 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't hear the objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: No foundation. Sustained, stricken. 10 MR. RUHNKE: I think there was foundation but I will 11 re-establish it, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, have you, yourself, ever been to the area in 15 that prison where they had the coffee and vending machines? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. How do you go there from, being guided by 366A, based on 18 your knowledge? 19 A. You have to leave the room, go out the door, get out, make 20 a right, go through a double door, and you make a left and 21 there are, I believe, three steps, take them up, and then you 22 walk straight to the end of the cafeteria. There are some 23 machines there. 24 Q. Once you made whatever purchases you were going to make at 25 the machine, how did you get back? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9407 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. You just reverse it. You just turn around, go straight, go 2 down the steps, I believe you make a right, go back through the 3 double door, go straight, and make a left into the room. 4 Q. In the prison setting, based on your own experience at 5 Rochester, were you permitted simply to wander around on your 6 own or how did that have to happen? 7 A. No. You were always escorted with someone. 8 Q. Now, on the audio file we have just heard, have you timed 9 how long it is from the time Mr. Jabara says he is leaving for 10 coffee and the time that he actually returns, or he actually 11 says, "Okay," on the tape? 12 A. Yes, I believe I did. 13 Q. And approximately how long an interval is that? 14 A. About eight minutes. 15 Q. And during those eight minutes when Mr. Jabara was not in 16 the room, what did you and the Sheikh -- what did you do with 17 the Sheikh? 18 A. I continued to do whatever was approved by Mr. Jabara at 19 that point, which was continue to read the newspapers. 20 Q. Did you pass a message to the Sheikh? 21 A. I had no message to pass. 22 Q. Did you take a message out from the Sheikh? 23 A. I was not there to do anything other than my job. There 24 were no messages, no agenda, other than doing my job. 25 Q. Now, Mr. Rahman, in this segment that we have just seen SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9408 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 displayed, it makes reference to the fact that he does not want 2 to dictate in front of Mr. Jabara, correct? 3 A. Yes, that's correct. 4 Q. And as somebody who worked with the attorneys, what did you 5 believe it was your obligation to do having received that piece 6 of information from the Sheikh? 7 A. I had to tell the lawyer in charge of that particular visit 8 or call what went on, while they were not in the room. 9 Q. And was there a time in this visit, on February 19, 2000, 10 later after Sheikh Rahman said to you he can't dictate in front 11 of Abdeen, that the Sheikh left the room? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this point we would like 14 to play the second audio excerpt and display the second 15 transcript for, which is Government Exhibit -- I will look at 16 whatever the exhibit is -- defendant's Exhibit GX 1701-MYX. If 17 we can display the transcript and play the audio? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. RUHNKE: The jurors can then use their headsets to 20 follow the conversation. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. RUHNKE: A lot of this conversation is in English 23 but there is a little bit that begins with the Arabic. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 Ladies and gentlemen, you can put your headphones on, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9409 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 please. 2 MR. RUHNKE: If we can begin the audio when the jurors 3 are ready. 4 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit GX 1701-MYX, in 5 evidence, was displayed and played for the jury) 6 MR. RUHNKE: We can stop it at this point, and if the 7 jurors will take their headphones off. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 Q. Did you have an understanding at the time, or what was your 10 understanding at the time, if you had one, as to why the Sheikh 11 was uncomfortable about dictating in front of Abdeen? 12 MS. BAKER: Objection. 13 MR. RUHNKE: State of mind, your Honor. 14 MS. BAKER: Lack of personal knowledge. 15 THE COURT: No. 16 MR. RUHNKE: I'm asking for his understanding. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MS. BAKER: Objection, foundation. 19 THE COURT: All right, sustained as to foundation. 20 You can certainly ask if he had an understanding at 21 the time. If so, what that understanding was. 22 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 23 Q. Did you have an understanding at the time, your own 24 understanding, as to why the Sheikh was uncomfortable with 25 dictating in front of Abdeen? What did you think was going on? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9410 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE WITNESS: I did have an understand -- 2 MS. BAKER: Objection. Lack of basis for the 3 understanding. Foundation. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 Q. What did you think was happening? 6 A. Well, I -- I was a little bit confused because the day 7 before Mr. Jabara made it clear to the Sheikh that he is not 8 going to hold a press conference. So I thought at the moment 9 that the Sheikh did not want to dictate an answer to his sister 10 who wanted to sell some house in Egypt. That was my initial 11 understanding. 12 Then when I was telling Mr. Jabara I felt that 13 probably he didn't want to dictate it and he wanted to make 14 clear that I don't want to do it with Jabara, you know, 15 somebody should come and take that. 16 And that's what I told Mr. Jabara. And I told him 17 what I thought and I told him exactly what happened when he was 18 not in the room. 19 Q. Now, we have been through this period of time where 20 Mr. Jabara was out of the room; did Mr. Jabara, during this 21 particular visit on February 19th, 2000, remain alert at all 22 times during the visit? 23 A. No -- 24 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9411 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Did you observe, were you able to observe whether or not 2 Mr. Jabara was always paying attention to what was going on? 3 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 Q. What did you observe about Mr. Jabara's degree of attention 6 to what was going on during the February 19 visit, if anything? 7 A. Mr. Jabara fell asleep more than once. 8 Q. And when Mr. Jabara fell asleep, as you observed, what was 9 your response? What did you do? 10 A. I woke him up. I said wake up, Mr. Jabara. I don't want 11 the guards to think that I'm talking to the Sheikh about 12 something that you are not approving. 13 Q. During the periods that Mr. Jabara was sleeping during 14 these visits, or the time he was out of the room getting 15 coffee, did you ever take advantage of those opportunities 16 alone with the Sheikh to pursue your own agenda? 17 A. I had no personal agenda. I never viewed this to be as an 18 opportunity. I was there to do what I was told to do. I did 19 that. 20 I read the papers, I read him the articles that the 21 lawyer approved. And when the Sheikh told me something that 22 Mr. Jabara needed to hear, I waited for the Sheikh to leave the 23 room, I told Mr. Jabara what happened. 24 Q. In terms of the contact that one or more of attorneys had 25 with the press, did it ever come to your attention, as it bears SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9412 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 on your own knowledge or state of mind, that anything ever 2 happened to any of those attorneys, to Mr. Jabara or to 3 Mr. Clark? 4 A. No. Nothing happened to them. 5 Q. We listened to a conversation the other day, it took place 6 on June 15 of 2000 during which you reference -- the 7 conversation in evidence -- basically for Mr. Sattar to quit 8 working on the Sheikh's case. Do you remember that testimony? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Sattar ever quit working on the 11 Sheikh's case? 12 A. No, he did the not. 13 Q. What did you tell Lynne Stewart about what you told 14 Mr. Sattar about quitting the Sheikh's case? 15 A. Well, I told Lynne that I had a conversation with Ahmed and 16 I told Ahmed to take a couple of weeks off; relax, just stay 17 away for a bit, rejuvenate and come back. 18 Q. Why didn't you tell Lynne that you told him to quit the 19 case all together -- Lynne Stewart? 20 MS. BAKER: Objection. 21 THE COURT: Basis. 22 MS. BAKER: Irrelevant. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 Q. Why didn't you tell Ms. Stewart that you actually told 25 Sattar to quit? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9413 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Well, Mr. Sattar was doing a lot of work for the lawyers, 2 he was making their job, I guess, a lot easier, and I didn't 3 want him to believe that I am the one who is pushing him out, 4 you know. 5 MS. BAKER: Objection. Move to strike. 6 THE COURT: Overruled. 7 Q. With regard to the Special Administrative Measures, were 8 you ever contacted by anyone from the government about signing 9 an affirmation? 10 A. No. Never happened. 11 Q. Did Mr. Fitzgerald or anybody from the government ever come 12 to you and say, Mr. Yousry, do you understand what these mean? 13 Are you following them? 14 A. Nobody did. 15 Q. In terms of your overall role in the defense of the Sheikh, 16 what is your understanding what your role was, as you lived it? 17 MS. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 Q. What is your view of what your role was? 20 A. Well, I was working as an interpreter, translator, a 21 liaison for the lawyers. I did everything I could in good 22 faith. I tried to follow their instruction. And I believe I 23 did that to the best of my ability. 24 Q. Whose job was it to make decisions? 25 MS. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9414 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. Did your function include decision-making as to what ought 3 to be done? 4 MS. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered. 5 THE COURT: I think it's been asked and answered. 6 Q. How many counts are you named in in this indictment, 7 Mr. Yousry? 8 A. Three. 9 Q. In Count One of this indictment, do you know what you are 10 charged with? 11 A. I believe I do, yes. 12 Q. Are you charged with conspiring to cheat the government by 13 joining a conspiracy to defeat the Special Administrative 14 Measures? 15 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. 17 Q. Are you charged with joining a conspiracy to cheat the 18 government by getting around the SAMs? 19 A. That is the allegation, yes. 20 Q. Are you guilty or not guilty? 21 A. I'm not guilty. 22 Q. In Count Four is the charge that you joined a conspiracy to 23 assist the terrorist organization, specifically intending to 24 help murder and kill people and kidnap people in Egypt. Is 25 that what are you charged with in Count Four? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9415 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. That is the allegation, yes. 2 Q. Did you ever join such a conspiracy? 3 A. Never did. 4 Q. Are you guilty or not guilty of Count Four? 5 A. Not guilty. 6 Q. In Count Five, are you charged with actually and knowing 7 and specifically intending to assist a terrorist organization, 8 murder and kidnap people in Egypt? Is that what are you 9 charged with? 10 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading and mischaracterizes 11 the -- 12 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled. 13 Q. Are you guilty or not guilty? 14 A. Not guilty. 15 MR. RUHNKE: Nothing further on direct examination, 16 your Honor. 17 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen I will 18 explain to you each of -- I have explained to you, in general, 19 the charges in the indictment. And an indictment is only an 20 allegation, it is not evidence of anything in the case. And as 21 to the specific charges in the indictment, I will explain them 22 in my final instructions to you. But I reiterate that an 23 indictment is not evidence, it is only the allegations. It's 24 the way in which charges are brought into court. 25 We can take a mid-afternoon break for 10 minutes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9416 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 2 instructions. Please don't talk about this case at all. 3 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all 4 of the evidence, I are instructed you on the law, and you have 5 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness 6 and justice to the parties requires that do you that. 7 All rise, please. 8 (Continued on next page) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9417 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: Please be seated. 6 One comment. There was a question towards the end 7 which actually was asked and answered. I sustained the 8 objection and I said, I think it's been asked and answered. I 9 thought I was being polite and I thought that the question had 10 in fact been asked and answered many times so I -- you can 11 correct me if I'm wrong, but it was asked and answered, was it 12 not? 13 MR. RUHNKE: I think is it probably was. 14 THE COURT: All right. We will take 10 minutes. 15 (Recess) 16 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 17 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 18 Ms. Baker? 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, would you like me to wait at 20 the lectern? 21 THE COURT: Yes. All right. Let's bring in the jury. 22 (Witness resumes the stand) 23 (Continued on next page) 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9418 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 4 Mr. Belfiore? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 6 you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you, sir. 8 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may examine. 9 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 10 CROSS EXAMINATION 11 BY MS. BAKER:: 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, on direct examination you were asked about a 13 radio broadcast that you participated in in 1993. Do you 14 remember that part of your testimony? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. And you testified that you believed that you participated 17 in that radio broadcast maybe on about February 23rd or 24th of 18 1993, is that correct? 19 A. I believe that's correct, yes. 20 Q. Now, at that time you were pursuing a masters degree at New 21 York University, correct? 22 A. I was in the process of finishing my masters, yes. 23 Q. And you eventually received your masters degree in 24 September 1999, correct? 25 A. I don't think it's 1999. Maybe the official transcript SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9419 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 says that, but it's a terminal masters degree. So, if the 2 transcript is '99, that's all right. 3 Q. In any event, you were in the middle of your masters 4 program at the time you were on the radio show, correct? 5 A. I believe so, yes. 6 Q. You were in a program in Near Eastern studies, correct? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. And as part of working on a masters degree, you were 9 working on a thesis entitled, Modernity and the Egyptian 10 Nationalists Discourse, correct? 11 A. Actually, the -- the actual figure that I worked on was 12 Sayyed Qutb. 13 Q. You are saying that he was a person about whom you wrote in 14 your thesis? 15 A. Right. His discourse between modernity and the nationalist 16 movement in Egypt. 17 Q. Right. But was the title of your masters thesis Modernity 18 and the Egyptian Nationalist Discourse? 19 A. Probably. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you a document I had marked for 23 identification as Government Exhibit 720; do you recognize that 24 as a copy of your transcript from New York University? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9420 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 2 720. 3 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 4 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 720 received in 5 evidence. 6 (Government's Exhibit 720 received in evidence) 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, let me direct your attention to the right-hand 8 column of the first page of Government Exhibit 720. About 9 halfway down there is a heading, Spring 1995, and then 10 underneath that there is an item that says "MA thesis:" 11 Do you see that entry? 12 A. Spring 1995? 13 Q. Yes, about four lines underneath that. 14 Your Honor, may I display the page to the jury? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Looking at the area that I am now indicating with my pen in 18 the spring, do you see that where it says, "MA thesis:"? 19 A. Yes, I do see that. 20 Q. And then it said, Islam, Modernity and the Egyptian 21 Nationalist Discourse. Does that refresh your recollection 22 that that is the title of your masters thesis? 23 A. That is probably the working title at the time. I'm not 24 really sure. But it is more or less, yes. I wrote about that 25 topic, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9421 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Well, Mr. Yousry, if you would look in the upper left-hand 2 corner of the first page of Government Exhibit 720 -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- you will see the third line down in the upper left-hand 5 corner says: Print date -- and indicating it with my pen on 6 the screen -- and then it gives a date in 2004, correct? 7 A. Yes, correct. 8 Q. So, this is a transcript much later, issued much later than 9 when you actually finished your thesis? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And it is an official university record of what you did at 12 the university? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And it indicates that that was the title of your thesis? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, at the time -- withdrawn. 17 You had been working on your thesis, or at least 18 research for that masters thesis during the spring 1993 19 academic semester, correct? 20 A. I can't recall that but maybe. Yes. 21 Q. Again, directing your attention to Government Exhibit 720, 22 specifically to a lower portion of the left-hand column of the 23 exhibit -- let's see if I can get this to show on the screen 24 where I have put a little green dot on the screen next to an 25 entry there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9422 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 Do you see that entry? It appears under the heading, 2 "Spring 1993," correct? 3 A. I see that, yes. 4 Q. And the entry where I have now placed the dot says, Masters 5 Thesis Research, correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 I think the problem that I am having is that this is a 8 Ph.D program so the, you obtain a terminal masters degree, it 9 is not something that you graduate and then apply for a Ph.D 10 program. 11 So, I'm not really clear on the date I started the 12 masters thesis or the date that I started the Ph.D thesis, from 13 here. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. That's the problem I'm having. That's all. 16 Q. What I'm asking you right now is the official university 17 record indicates that in the spring 1993 semester -- 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. -- you were doing research for your masters thesis, 20 correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And at some point later than that you finished writing the 23 thesis and you got the degree, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. I understand. You say you immediately continued on, there SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9423 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 was sort of an overlap between the masters degree work and the 2 doctorate degree work, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. But focusing on spring 1993, you were doing research for 5 your masters thesis which related to Islam in Egypt, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, that was the time during that spring 1993 semester 8 when you appeared in a radio broadcast that was presented 9 during your direct examination, correct? 10 A. Probably, yes. 11 Q. Now, at the time that you appeared on that radio broadcast 12 in February 1993, you had not yet started working on Sheikh 13 Omar Abdel Rahman's case, correct? 14 A. No, I had not. 15 Q. So, yes, you agree with me that that's a correct statement? 16 A. I was not working on his case. 17 Q. So, by that point you had not yet met Sheikh Omar Abdel 18 Rahman, correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Nonetheless, you had a fair amount of information about him 21 as reflected by what was said during that radio broadcast, 22 correct? 23 A. Some of them turned to be wrong but yes, correct. 24 Q. Let me ask you some of what you knew about Sheikh Omar 25 Abdel Rahman at the time that you appeared on the radio SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9424 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 broadcast. 2 First, you knew that he was considered a very 3 important figure, indeed you described him as a very, very 4 important figure among a certain group of people, correct? 5 A. That is correct. Yes. 6 Q. And that group of people in which he was very important 7 were some new Islamic groups that were on the rise at the time, 8 correct? 9 A. That was where my mistake was. But I associated him with a 10 group that it turned out to be not the case. 11 I gathered all the information at the time from the 12 newspaper. So, the group that I associated him with in that 13 interview was the wrong group. 14 Q. Well, you did associate him in that interview with the 15 group al-Gama'a Islamiyya, correct? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. I understand at that one point you made reference to a 18 different group with the word Takfir? 19 A. Yes, precisely. 20 Q. And that's not appropriate, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But you also said during that interview in 1993 that Sheikh 23 Abdel Rahman was affiliated with the Islamic group Al-Gama'a 24 Islamiyya? 25 A. Yes, correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9425 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And within the group or groups that he was associated with, 2 as you said he was a very, very important person, correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. And the group that he was associated with believed, as you 5 knew at that time, that armed struggle is Islamically 6 justified, correct? 7 A. In certain occasions, yes. 8 Q. Well, they believed, and in fact you said in the broadcast, 9 they believed that armed struggle was Islamically justified in 10 Egypt at that time, correct? 11 A. Precisely, yes. 12 Q. And they believed that because, in their view, the society 13 that people were living in in Egypt at that time was not a 14 Muslim society, correct? 15 A. That is also, was one of my mistakes but yes, I said that. 16 Q. Okay, but -- 17 A. I did say that, yes. 18 Q. And you also knew at the time of your radio interview in 19 1993 that the people in the group with which Abdel Rahman was 20 associated, looked to him for his guidance and listened to what 21 he had to say, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. You also knew at that time that the Islamic group, as you 24 referred to it in the interview, had assassinated former 25 Egyptian president Anwar Sadat, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9426 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is correct. Yes. 2 Q. And you knew that they did that based on a judgment that 3 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman had issued, correct? 4 A. That is also correct, yes. 5 Q. In other words, he gave his permission for the group to 6 carry out the assassination, or -- withdrawn. Let me rephrase 7 it more precisely. 8 He advised them that it was religiously appropriate, 9 under his view of Islam, or religiously permissible, for them 10 to take that action of assassinating Sadat? 11 A. That is correct. Yes. 12 Q. And you also knew at the time that you did this interview 13 in 1993 that the group with which Abdel Rahman was associated, 14 which you identified at one point as the Islamic group, that it 15 was what you referred to as an underground movement, correct? 16 A. They were at the time and I believe they still are. 17 Q. What you meant by that was they carried out, at least to a 18 certain extent, their operations in secret, correct? 19 A. Certain functions, yes. 20 Q. And you knew at the time you gave this interview in 21 February 1993 that up to that point that the group had carried 22 out suicide missions against the Egyptian police force, 23 correct? 24 A. I did, yes. 25 Q. And you also heard while you were in Egypt that there was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9427 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 one such attack on police day, correct? 2 A. That is correct. Yes. 3 Q. And in that attack, as you had heard, two unarmed police 4 officers were killed, correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Now, also in that interview or at the time of that 7 interview in February 1993 it was your belief, was it not, that 8 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman was very popular among the 9 organization with which he was affiliated, correct? 10 A. That is correct. Yes. 11 Q. But you clarified that, in your view, in February 1993 he 12 was not popular more broadly within Egyptian population, 13 correct? 14 A. Thank God, yes. 15 Q. And you specifically expressed the view that, for example, 16 the Egyptian middle class would not follow, correct? 17 A. Yes, correct. 18 Q. Now, just to elaborate a little more on your educational 19 background, you testified on direct examination that you had 20 attended the military college of Cairo University, is that 21 correct? 22 A. The military college belongs to Cairo University; that is 23 correct. Yes. 24 Q. And you graduated with a degree in military science and a 25 minor in history, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9428 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 A. At that time, yes. Now they offer actually accounting, 2 they offer business too. But at that time it was mainly those 3 two, yes. 4 Q. I'm sorry. Just to clarify your last answer, you are 5 saying they now offer other subjects? 6 A. Yes, they do. 7 Q. But what you studied was military science, correct? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Initially the degree that you received from the military 10 college was a bachelors degree, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you receive that in June 1975? 13 A. That sounds about right, yes. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness 15 again? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you now a document marked for 18 identification as Government Exhibit 721. Do you recognize 19 Government Exhibit 721 as a translation of records relating to 20 your studies at Cairo University? 21 A. That's what it looks like, yes. 22 Q. You provided these records to NYU as part of your 23 application to the NYU masters program, correct? 24 A. Actually, no, I did not. They came straight from Cairo 25 University. They had applied, you send a letter, and then they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9429 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 send them. So, yes. 2 Q. So, you arranged for the records to be provided by Cairo 3 University to NYU? 4 A. Yes, I signed the release. Yes. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 6 721. 7 MR. RUHNKE: No objection, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right, Government Exhibit 721, 9 received in evidence. 10 (Government's Exhibit 721 received in evidence) 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display it to the jury? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm showing you the first page of Government 14 Exhibit 721, which bears in the upper right-hand corner a 15 marking, Yousry academic records, 0017. So, if you will allow 16 me, I'm going to refer to the pages of this exhibit by using 17 the numbers in the upper right-hand corner of the pages. 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. Now, page 0017, the one that's now on the monitor, reflects 20 that in June of 1975 you got your bachelors degree in military 21 science from what is referred to in the document as the 22 military academy, correct? 23 A. That is correct. Yes. 24 Q. If you would turn, please, two pages further back in the 25 document to the page marked 0019 in the upper right-hand SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9430 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 corner; that page reflects, does it not, the courses that you 2 took, or at least part -- it continues on to the next page -- 3 the courses that you took in working towards that bachelors 4 degree in military science? 5 A. That is correct, yes. 6 Q. Now, after you obtained your bachelors degree from the 7 military academy, you also obtained an additional certificate 8 from the same institution, correct? 9 A. I believe so, yes. 10 Q. That was a 12-credit program that you took above and beyond 11 your bachelors degree, is that right? 12 A. That was in association with a new institute that was 13 opened in Cairo University to facilitate services to Army 14 officers and police officers in order to study either 15 accounting, economic, social history for them because at that 16 time the Army started to cut back. So, people needed to be 17 ready to get new jobs. 18 Q. My question was, though, was it a 12-credit certificate 19 program? 20 A. Yes, in association with different -- that's what I'm -- 21 I'm sorry. I'm just trying to say it was in association with a 22 different institute along with the Cairo University; yes. 23 Q. The two institutions working together, is that what you are 24 saying? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9431 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. All right. 2 But the program itself, it was a 12-credit program, 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you took three courses basically, is that right? 6 A. According to the transcript, yes. 7 Q. And that certificate was in the field or the subject matter 8 of political economics, correct? Or economics? 9 A. I believe so, yes. 10 Q. If you would look, please, at the second page of Government 11 Exhibit 721, the page that's marked 0018 in the upper 12 right-hand corner. 13 Your Honor, if I might display that page to the jury? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 Q. That page reflects, does it not, the 12-credit certificate 16 that you obtained? 17 A. That's what it says, yes. 18 Q. And if you look in the paragraph of text near the top of 19 the page, the fourth line down it indicates that it was a 20 concentration in economics, correct? 21 A. Yes, that's what it says. 22 Q. Now, as you testified on direct examination, there came a 23 time when you left Egypt and came to the United States, 24 correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9432 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And just to continue talking about your Educational 2 background, once you were here in the United States there came 3 a time when you attended two different schools within the City 4 University of New York system, correct? 5 A. Yes. That is correct. 6 Q. And those were La Guardia Community College and Hunter 7 College? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. And after some study at those institutions you went to the 10 New School for Social Research, correct? 11 A. That is correct. Yes. 12 Q. And at the New School you were studying, as you described 13 it, political economy, correct? 14 A. Yes, I was. Actually that's how I was recruited to NYU, 15 from the New School. 16 Q. Now, you were admitted to the masters program at NYU in 17 March 1991, as far as when you learned you were received, is 18 that right? 19 A. That sounds about right, I think. 20 Q. And your first semester of attending any courses at NYU was 21 the fall of 1991, is that right? 22 A. I believe so, yes. 23 Q. If you would look, please, at Government Exhibit 720, which 24 you seem to be looking at, if you would focus your attention on 25 the left-hand column -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9433 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 Your Honor, may I show this to the jury again? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MS. BAKER: Showing you Government Exhibit 720, in 4 evidence. 5 THE COURT: 720 or 7 -- 6 MS. BAKER: 7-2-0? 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 Q. Enlarging it a little bit, do you see the heading, Fall 9 1991, there? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. Where I marked the green dot sort of near it? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. And that is the first semester listed in the transcript, 14 correct? 15 A. That is correct, I believe. Yes. 16 Q. So, that was your first semester in attendance at NYU, 17 correct? 18 A. Most likely, yes. 19 Q. And as we have already covered, you retained your masters 20 from NYU and then you continued on at NYU in the Ph.D program, 21 correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Now, you were admitted to NYU's Ph.D program in March 1993, 24 correct? 25 A. That sounds probably right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9434 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you a document that's marked for 4 identification as Government Exhibit 723; do you recognize that 5 document as a letter that you received from NYU advising you of 6 your acceptance into the Ph.D program? 7 A. Yes. 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 9 722. 10 THE COURT: Without objection, Government Exhibit 723 11 received in evidence. 12 (Government's Exhibit 723 received in evidence) 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, is that document dated, that letter dated March 14 22nd, 1993? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 Q. And you began working towards your Ph.D in a formal way, 17 and I understand that to a certain extent the masters program 18 flows right into the Ph.D program but, technically, according 19 to the university, your formal work for your Ph.D began in the 20 fall 1993 semester, correct? 21 A. That is correct. I believe so, yes. 22 Q. Now, let's turn aside for a moment from the subject of your 23 education. Let me ask you a little bit about some of the 24 Arabic language newspapers. 25 First, Asharq Al-Awsat, that's a newspaper published SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9435 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 in the Arabic language, correct? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. It's a daily newspaper, correct? 4 A. Yes, it is. 5 Q. Do you read Asharq Al-Awsat regularly? 6 A. Not really, no. 7 Q. During the time you were working with Sheikh Omar Abdel 8 Rahman you were reading Asharq al-Awsat at least periodically, 9 correct? 10 A. He never liked the Asharq al-Awsat and he didn't want us to 11 read Asharq al-Awsat. He always requested Al-Hayat and 12 Al-Quds. 13 So I sometimes would get Asharq al-Awsat when I 14 couldn't find either Al-Hayat or Quds, so. 15 Q. But periodically, from time to time, you would read Asharq 16 Al-Awsat? 17 A. Probably very few. Not really a lot. 18 Q. Well, you worked with Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman for a number 19 of years, correct? 20 A. Yes, of course. 21 Q. And during that lengthy period when you worked with him, 22 you read news articles to him regularly, correct? 23 A. Yes, correct. 24 (Continued on next page) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9436 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 BY MS. BAKER: 2 Q. So even if you only bought Asharq Al-Awsat on occasion or 3 read it on occasion, over those years that added up to quite a 4 number of times that you read or dealt with Asharq Al-Awsat, 5 correct? 6 A. No, not really. I would say three, four times tops, 7 because he never liked that. He never did. 8 Q. Let me withdraw and start again. 9 I don't mean to limit your familiarity with the 10 newspaper just to what you read to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 11 I'm asking you more broadly: In addition to whenever you may 12 have read it to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, you yourself read 13 Asharq Al-Awsat or articles from it at least periodically over 14 the years, correct? 15 A. That -- that -- that's probably right, yes. 16 Q. Now, as far as the distribution of Asharq Al-Awsat, it's 17 available in Egypt, correct? 18 A. I believe it's published in London, available all over the 19 world, yes. 20 Q. Including Egypt? 21 A. Including Cairo, Egypt, yes. 22 Q. And within Egypt it would be available in Cairo, correct? 23 A. It would be mostly available in hotels, yes. 24 Q. Within the City of Cairo? 25 A. Within the City of Cairo, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9437 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And also elsewhere in the country, correct? 2 A. I assume, yes. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I object, object to assuming. 4 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. 5 Q. Obviously it was also available in the United States, which 6 is where you obtained it, correct? 7 A. It is available in the United States, in New York, yes. 8 Q. And you obtained it here in New York, correct? 9 A. (Nods head) 10 Q. And it's also available in other Arabic speaking countries, 11 correct? 12 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Hold on. The witness has to 13 answer in words. 14 There was a question, and you obtained it here in 15 New York, correct? And the reporter didn't get an answer other 16 than a nod of the head. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's available in New York, yes. 18 THE COURT: OK. 19 Q. And that's where you would see it or purchase it from time 20 to time, correct? 21 A. Yes, within the three, four times over the years, yes. 22 Q. Was it also available in other Arabic speaking countries? 23 A. I assume it is. I -- I know it's been distributed all over 24 the Arab world, yes. 25 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9438 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you a document marked for 3 identification as Government Exhibit 717. Do you recognize 4 Government Exhibit 717 as a typical top part of the front page 5 of Asharq Al-Awsat? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that particular example of the top of the front page is 8 dated November 12th of 2000, correct? 9 A. It's Sunday, November 12, 2000, yes. 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government 11 Exhibit 717. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Can we go back to this later on? I have 13 zero understanding of what this article says. So if we could 14 come back to this later on. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, it's your understanding based on everything 17 that you heard and know about Asharq Al-Awsat that it was 18 available in various countries throughout the world, correct? 19 A. I believe so, yes. 20 Q. Let me turn your attention to a different newspaper, 21 Al-Hayat, also published in the Arabic language, correct? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. Another daily newspaper? 24 A. It is a daily newspaper, with exception of Sunday, I think. 25 They publish a double issue Saturday and Sunday, I think. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9439 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Do you read Al-Hayat regularly? 2 A. I read Al-Hayat mostly for the purpose of the legal weekly 3 call for the Sheikh, and also available at NYU, so I can read 4 it at NYU as well. 5 Q. Which means that you were reading it regularly, correct? 6 A. If I needed to read an Arabic paper, I would pick it up. 7 Q. You had legal calls with Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman 8 approximately twice a week, correct? 9 A. Starting in 1997, yes. 10 Q. And starting in 1997 and continuing for a number of years 11 the calls were approximately twice a week, correct? 12 A. That is -- that is correct, yes. 13 Q. And during that entire period of time you were working on 14 your doctoral dissertation at NYU, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. So between those two purposes for reading the newspaper, 17 you were reading it regularly, correct? 18 A. Yes. I would assume I would probably read it three, four 19 times a week, yes. 20 Q. Now, Al-Hayat is available in Egypt, correct? 21 A. Yes, I think so, and also hotels. Because I remember 22 seeing it in the street, I just -- you know, I guess so ... 23 Q. And it's also available in the US, yes? 24 A. It is available in New York, yes. 25 Q. Was it available elsewhere in the US, to your knowledge? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9440 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 A. I'm not really sure. I think I bought it always from 2 New York, but I assume it was available IN large cities; Los 3 Angeles, Chicago probably. 4 Q. And based on your familiarity with it, you're aware that 5 it's also available elsewhere in the world, correct? 6 A. Yes, of course. 7 Q. Including other Arabic speaking countries, correct? 8 A. Yes, that is correct. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you a newspaper clipping marked for 12 identification as Government Exhibit 716. Do you recognize 13 that as the top portion of a front page of Al-Hayat? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. Now, that was a newspaper clipping that you had in your 16 office. It was found there by the FBI, correct? 17 A. Most likely, yes. 18 Q. And this particular portion of Al-Hayat is dated August 19, 19 1993, correct? 20 A. That is Thursday, August 19, 1993, yes. 21 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government 22 Exhibit 716. 23 MR. RUHNKE: Just relevance, your Honor. And maybe if 24 we could take this up as well when we take a break. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9441 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: And we'd like to be heard on that, too. 2 MS. BAKER: I'm sorry, your Honor. Did you want me to 3 move on to something else? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 BY MS. BAKER: 6 Q. Turning your attention to Al-Quds Al-Arabi, that's another 7 Arab language newspaper, correct? 8 A. Yes, that is correct. 9 Q. Also a daily paper? 10 A. It is a daily paper with exception of Sundays as well, I 11 think. 12 Q. Did you also read Al-Quds Al-Arabi regularly? 13 A. Only for the calls. Al-Quds wasn't available at NYU as 14 well. 15 Q. You're saying you were reading it only for that purpose and 16 not for use in your dissertation research? 17 A. No, because Al-Quds mainly writes articles from other news 18 agencies. So if you read Al-Hayat, you would not need to read 19 Al-Quds, with exception of, you know, very few articles. 20 Q. But, again, as you've said, you were reading it for 21 purposes of the legal calls, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And those, again, were about twice a week for a period of 24 years, correct? 25 A. 1997 to 2000, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9442 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. So over the years you read Al-Quds Al-Arabi very 2 frequently? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. Now, is Al-Quds available in Egypt? 5 A. I don't know. I assume it is. 6 Q. It is available in the United States, obviously; that's 7 where you bought it, correct? 8 A. It is available -- 9 MR. RUHNKE: I'm sorry, your Honor. Your Honor, I'm 10 sorry. The answer "I assume it is," I object to that and ask 11 that that be stricken. 12 THE COURT: All right. Sustained. 13 Q. To your knowledge is it available in other Arabic speaking 14 countries? 15 A. I -- I -- probably. I don't know. 16 Q. To your knowledge is it available elsewhere in the world? 17 A. I know it's available here in New York, and I know it's 18 available in England. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, isn't it a fact that Al-Quds Al-Arabi, Al-Hayat 20 and Asharq Al-Awsat are the three most influential Arabic 21 language newspapers? 22 A. I believe Al-Ahram is the leading one in Al-Hayat. There 23 is no statistics about that because any newspapers that you 24 mentioned are -- were read if not in print, on the Internet. 25 That's my understanding. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9443 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your answer. 2 My question is whether you agree with the 3 characterization that Al-Quds Al-Arabi, Al-Hayat and Asharq 4 Al-Awsat are the three most influential Arabic language 5 newspapers. 6 A. They are not the three most influential. There is one, 7 it's called Al-Ahram, so they're probably three of the most 8 four or five most influential newspapers, yes. Especially 9 Al-Hayat. 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display an exhibit in 11 evidence, MY1712X. 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, this is a transcript of a call between you and 14 Ahmed Abdel Sattar, correct? 15 A. That's correct, yes. 16 Q. And it's a call that took place on June 15th of 2000, 17 right? 18 A. That is correct, yes. 19 Q. At about 9:32 p.m.? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that you listened 22 to a recording of this call, correct? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. And the recording of the call was an accurate reporting of 25 the conversation that you actually had with Mr. Sattar, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9444 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, in this call Mr. Sattar asked you, directing your 4 attention to the bottom half of page 1 of the transcript, did 5 you read the newspapers? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you see that part there? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. And you replied, yeah, man, I read Al-Quds, Asharq Al-Awsat 10 and Al-Hayat, correct? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to another exhibit. 13 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display Exhibit LS701T 14 in evidence. 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. That's a transcript of another telephone call that you 17 participated in, correct? 18 A. That is correct, yes. 19 Q. And this call was on June 16th of 2000? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. At about 8:57 in the morning, correct? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. And you had listened to this recording, had you not? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. And the recording was an accurate recording of a telephone SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9445 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 conversation that you actually had with Ms. Stewart, correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Now, this call, the one reflected in LS701T, this occurred 4 the very next morning after the call that I was just asking you 5 about, the one reflected in MY1712X, correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And in this conversation with Ms. Stewart, you told her, 8 directing your attention to, oh, about six lines down on the 9 first page, you said, well, listen, Lynne, you are all over the 10 Arabic papers. Do you see that part there? 11 A. Yeah, I do. 12 Q. Where I put the green dot on the screen? 13 A. I do, yes. I do now. 14 Q. And did I read that accurately; you told her that she was 15 all over the Arabic papers? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And then you went on in this conversation to describe for 18 Ms. Stewart the news stories that you and Mr. Sattar discussed 19 in the telephone call the previous night, which was the call 20 shown in Exhibit MY1712X, correct? 21 A. That is correct, yes. 22 Q. And just to go back to that call for a moment -- 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display that one again? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 Q. Specifically, you were speaking with Mr. Sattar the night SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9446 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 before about Al-Quds, Asharq Al-Awsat and Al-Hayat, correct, 2 where I've marked with the green -- 3 A. Yes, I see that. I see that. 4 Q. All right. Now, turning back to Exhibit LS701T. Directing 5 your attention to the top of page 2, after you briefly 6 described for Ms. Stewart what was coming out in the 7 newspapers, you said, and I'm quoting now the second line on 8 the top of page two of LS701T, yeah, yeah, well, that's what 9 they're coming out in the three, eh, most influential Arab 10 newspapers, correct? 11 A. Yes, I see that, yeah. 12 Q. Would you agree that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman is a 13 militant? 14 A. I'm sorry? I couldn't hear you. 15 Q. Would you agree that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman is a 16 militant? 17 A. His position on the use of violence is very inconsistent. 18 But he's one of the leading militant thinkers in Egypt. His 19 use -- his position on violence is inconsistent. 20 Q. But he does believe in the use of violence in at least 21 certain circumstances, correct? 22 A. From my research and the work I've done on him, yes, he 23 does. 24 Q. And indeed, in your last answer, you used the word militant 25 in describing him, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9447 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman believes that militant jihad 3 is indispensable for accomplishing any meaningful Muslim 4 change, correct? 5 A. In context, probably, yes. 6 Q. He also believes that jihad is a duty for Muslims, correct? 7 A. There is a dispute over that so -- but mainly he believes 8 that if a Muslim land is under occupation, then the duty of 9 jihad is an obligation on every Muslim. However, if a Muslim 10 land is not under occupation, then it's not an obligatory duty. 11 Q. Mr. Yousry -- 12 A. That's how I understand his position. 13 Q. OK. And he believes, does he not, that there are Muslim 14 lands under occupation in the world today? 15 A. Indeed, yes. 16 Q. And, therefore, he believes that in the world today, jihad 17 is a duty for Muslims, correct? 18 A. He believed that the fields of jihad, according to my 19 research, are in Palestine, the Philippines, Bosnia at the 20 time -- I can't recall the fourth one. I think it's Kashmir, 21 if I'm not mistaken. 22 Q. Does he not also believe in jihad in Egypt? 23 A. Also, it's inconsistent, but, yes, at certain points he 24 did. 25 Q. Now, Egypt currently has a secular government, is that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9448 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 right? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. And Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's goal is for Egypt to have a 4 Muslim government, correct? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. And you testified on direct examination, did you not, that 7 the ultimate goal for al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya is to establish a 8 Muslim state in Egypt where they can rule according to their 9 own interpretation of Sharia, which is the Muslim law; do you 10 remember giving that testimony? 11 A. I do, of course, yes. 12 Q. And that's accurate, that's your belief, your 13 understanding? 14 A. I believe it's accurate today, yes. 15 Q. And you also testified on direct examination that with 16 respect to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, as a spiritual leader of 17 this group, meaning al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya, he shares the 18 ultimate goal, which is the establishment of a Muslim state 19 where they can rule according to their own interpretation of 20 the Muslim law, correct? 21 A. That is correct, yes. 22 Q. So the Sheikh wants Egypt to be ruled in accordance with 23 what is referred to as Sharia? 24 A. His own interpretation of it, yes. 25 Q. Correct, but the term -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9449 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- is Sharia, correct? 3 A. Absolutely, yes. 4 Q. And Sharia, different people can disagree on what it 5 encompasses, but as a term, "Sharia" refers to a Muslim system 6 of government based on the Koran, or one's interpretation of 7 the Koran, correct? 8 A. That is correct, yes. 9 Q. Now, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman believes that militant jihad 10 must take place immediately in order to achieve Islam's 11 principal goal of change in establishing an authentic Muslim 12 state, correct? 13 A. I really have to see that in context, because according to 14 my research, he believes that inviting people to Islam or 15 having the right to go out and try to convert people to Islam 16 would result at the end to converting the government itself 17 from the bottom up into a Muslim state. So, you know, it has 18 to be understood in context. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you still have any copies of the exhibits in 20 front of you or no? 21 A. I'm sorry? 22 Q. Oh, just the ones that I gave you. 23 A. Yes. 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a minute to confer 25 with Mr. Ruhnke. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9450 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: Sure. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 BY MS. BAKER: 5 Q. Mr. Yousry, I handed you a binder of exhibits open to the 6 exhibit in evidence as MY550LT3? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. That's a draft of a portion of your doctoral dissertation, 9 correct? 10 A. It is a draft, right, dated January 19, 2000. 11 Q. Now, if you would look, please, at the sentence or 12 sentences that carry over from the bottom of page two to page 13 three. 14 A. Mm-mm. I do see them, yes. 15 Q. OK. And you're talking there about analyzing Sheikh Omar 16 Abdel Rahman's discourse, and you say specifically, to examine 17 the material and cultural grounds on which militant jihad must 18 take place immediately in order to achieve Islam's principal 19 goal of change and the establishment of an authentic Muslim 20 state with true Muslim citizens, correct? 21 A. Authentic Muslim state is in quotation and -- 22 THE COURT: Stop. OK. Finish the answer, please. 23 A. It's in quotations, so I'm trying to highlight a 24 contradiction in his own discourse. He on one hand said, this 25 has to be done immediately. Then on the other hand, he says, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9451 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 we can do it through other means. 2 So in this particular portion, I'm trying to highlight 3 the -- I'm not trying to defend him, you know, what he said 4 is -- I mean, it's clear what I think of what he said. But in 5 this particular portion of the dissertation, I'm just trying to 6 highlight that contradiction within the discourse. 7 Q. So, in fact, he has said, as you have written here, that 8 militant jihad must take place immediately in order to achieve 9 an authentic Muslim state? 10 A. That is the inconsistency, yes. 11 Q. That is something that he has said? 12 A. Absolutely, yes, absolutely, yes. 13 Q. Now, he also believes that nonMuslim social systems should 14 be resisted by means that include militant jihad, correct? 15 A. He -- yes. 16 Q. And when he says "militant jihad," he has defined it in 17 part as jihad by the sword, correct? 18 A. From his perspective, militant jihad is a physical 19 resistance to a system in place, yes. 20 Q. And so he has used the phrase jihad, quote, by the sword, 21 unquote, has he not? 22 A. It's a statement that he used from the Koran, yes. 23 Q. Now, is it fair to say that there are many other Muslim 24 scholars who did not share Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's views 25 about the circumstances in which physical jihad or violent SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9452 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 jihad is appropriate? 2 A. It's fair to say that, yes. 3 Q. But going back to his views, turning back to the period of 4 time when Gamal Abdel Nasser was the president of Egypt, Sheikh 5 Omar Abdel Rahman viewed President Nasser as an enemy of Islam, 6 correct? 7 A. He did, yes. 8 Q. And Sheikh Abdel Rahman believed that President Nasser 9 conspired with the west, the Russians and the Zionists against 10 Muslims and Islam in Egypt, correct? 11 A. That is also one of the inconsistencies in his discourse, 12 absolutely, yes. 13 Q. Now, when Anwar Sadat succeeded Nasser as president of 14 Egypt, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman believed that Sadat was even 15 worse than his predecessor, Nasser, correct? 16 A. At the end of the Sadat period, yes. 17 Q. And Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman preached against Sadat's 18 policies and against American involvement in Egypt's economy 19 and politics, correct? 20 A. After 1977, yes, according to my research. I just don't 21 want to generalize because it's -- it's an academic work, so I 22 just want to be clear that at a certain point he supported 23 Sadat, and later on he did not. 24 Q. Now, in 1980 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman became a leader of 25 al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya, or the Islamic Group, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9453 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is correct, yes. 2 Q. And he became a leader because the elected members of the 3 Islamic Group's Majlis al-shura asked him to do so, correct? 4 A. He was not a member of that group. They were looking for a 5 leader, a person with knowledge. According to my research they 6 were mainly in upper Egypt in the southern part of the country, 7 and they decided to ask him to lead them. According also to my 8 research, he declined because he was blind. They insisted and 9 then he accepted what they call the spiritual guidance 10 position. 11 Q. My question was much more narrow than your answer. 12 A. I'm sorry. 13 Q. Is it not true that he became a leader when the elected 14 members of IG's Majlis al-shura asked him to do so? 15 A. Yes, I believe so. 16 Q. Now, the phrase Maglis al-shura, that translates to a 17 consultative assembly or a consultative council? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And in the case of al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya, or the Islamic 20 Group, that is the governing body of the group, correct? 21 A. That should be it, right. 22 Q. And so Abdel Rahman ultimately agreed to request of the 23 other leaders of IG to become a leader? 24 A. As I said, he -- because of his blindness, he was not -- 25 according to the research, he was not a day-to-day leader. He SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9454 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 was the spiritual guide for that moment. That's what he agreed 2 to, according to my research. 3 Q. He became, in your words, the al-Amir al-A'am of the 4 Islamic Group, is that correct? 5 A. Correct. That is the general leader of that group, yes. 6 Q. So as you just displayed, the translation of the phrase 7 al-Amir al-A'am means the general leader, correct? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. And so he became the general leader of the Islamic Group's 10 shura or consultative council, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, his job with respect to members or the leaders of the 13 Islamic Group was, among other things, to guide them to teach 14 them what he believed to be the proper interpretation of the 15 Koran, and to answer your questions, correct? 16 A. That is correct. From 1980 to 1986 he had a supervisory 17 role in producing all the material. After 1986 it became a 18 different story. But to answer your question, yes, from 1980 19 to 1986, that is according to my research, yes. 20 Q. Now, the Islamic Group had, if not initially, formed at 21 some point a military wing, is that right? 22 A. I believe -- 23 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I have an application to make 24 with respect to this line of inquiry. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9455 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: I'm willing to wait until the -- 4:30, but 2 I wanted to say it now. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 BY MS. BAKER: 5 Q. The Islamic Group came to have a military wing, correct? 6 A. According to my research as well, at several points of the 7 development of that group, they had military wings and then 8 they dissolved it, according to the political situation at the 9 time. So, yes, they did have military wings, and at some other 10 point of time they did not, so ... 11 Q. Now, there came a time when the members of the Islamic 12 Group put then President Sadat on trial, correct? 13 A. I'm not sure if the word trial is used in the sense that we 14 are here, but they accused him of treason and they put him on 15 trial, I believe, according to my research, in 1979, early 16 '80s. 17 Q. Well, in fact, you used the word trial to describe that 18 event, did you not? 19 A. Again, not a trial in the sense that we are here. They 20 themselves put him on trial, and they decided to send the 21 president a letter advising him of the result. 22 Q. They put him on trial within the group, is that right? 23 A. Absolutely, yes. 24 Q. In other words, it wasn't a public proceeding in court? 25 A. No, it was not. And once that trial was over, they sent SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9456 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 the president a letter informing him of what happened. And 2 they ask him to follow their advice, and, of course, you know 3 the president didn't. Then they considered that to be a 4 reaffirmation of the decision that from their perspective he 5 strayed from the path of Islam. 6 Q. Turning back to the event that you described as a trial, 7 though, in that trial within the Islamic Group Sheikh Omar 8 Abdel Rahman served as the judge, correct? 9 A. Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman issued the -- what is known to be 10 as the decision that after -- if the prisoner fails to do 11 these, following things, therefore, he's no longer a believer. 12 That is correct. 13 Q. And when you described this incident in the draft of your 14 dissertation, you characterized Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman as 15 having served as the judge, correct? 16 A. Maybe I did not advise that particular portion, but a judge 17 is not necessarily the correct thing. But, yes, I might have 18 used that, yes. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you have the binder in front of you, a copy 20 of the original of the exhibit in evidence as MY550LT4? 21 A. MY550LT4, yes, I do. 22 Q. That is a draft of another portion of your dissertation, 23 correct? 24 A. Yeah. That is a draft that I didn't work on so -- I mean, 25 it was just a draft. I didn't correct it. You know, 2000 and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9457 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 something. But the gist of what was said was correct. 2 Q. Continuing to focus your attention on that event, as a 3 result of this trial, or as a result of Sheikh Omar Abdel 4 Rahman's decision in this trial, he issued a fatwah, correct? 5 A. Yes, that is correct. 6 Q. And a fatwah is translated or defined essentially as a 7 nonbinding legal opinion, correct? 8 A. It is a nonbinding legal opinion, that is correct. 9 Q. And the fatwah that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman issued on that 10 particular occasion said essentially that Sadat was not to be 11 considered a Muslim, correct? 12 A. That is my understanding, according to my research, yes. 13 Q. And it also said that Sadat deserved the death sentence, 14 correct? 15 A. That is also my understanding, yes. 16 Q. And the reasons for that as articulated by Sheikh Omar 17 Abdel Rahman included that Sadat had replaced God's law with 18 his own, correct? 19 A. That is the main point of contentions, yes. 20 Q. And also that he had plotted with the Americans and the 21 Israelis to battle against Muslims and Islam, correct? 22 A. Correct. And it's also one of the inconsistencies again in 23 Omar Abdel Rahman's discourse, yes. 24 Q. And after that trial occurred, sometime after that members 25 of the Islamic Group actually murdered President Sadat, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9458 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 correct? 2 A. They assassinated the president on October 6th of 1981, I 3 think. 4 Q. Now, as I believe you discussed I believe a little bit 5 earlier, the Islamic Group and Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman shared 6 the goal of replacing Egypt's secular government with a Muslim 7 state that would be ruled according to their interpretation of 8 Sharia, correct? 9 A. That is correct, yes. 10 Q. Now, for members of the Islamic Group, given their view of 11 Islam, it's important to them not to do anything that they 12 would view as Haram, or Islamically forbidden, correct? 13 A. That is correct, yes. 14 Q. And it's important for them conversely only to do that 15 which is Halal, or Islamically permitted, correct? 16 A. That is correct, yes. 17 Q. So on any particular issue they would look to someone who 18 they would view as a religious scholar to determine whether 19 something in particular is Haram or Halal, permitted or 20 forbidden, correct? 21 A. Generally speaking, yes. However, according to my 22 research, there are certain topics that have been determined by 23 other scholars so they did not need to go there to ask 24 questions. But they use the -- Muslim tradition use -- 25 thinkers in the Muslim tradition over the last 1,400 years use SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9459 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 certain thinkers. They did not use the whole tradition as a 2 whole. They were very selective. 3 Q. Now, from 1981 to 1984 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman was in 4 prison in Egypt, is that right? 5 A. He was in prison for those three years, yes. 6 Q. And then again in 1985 to 1986 there were times when he was 7 detained for shorter periods of time, correct? 8 A. I believe so, yes. 9 Q. Sometimes days, sometimes weeks, sometimes months, correct? 10 A. And I believe he was also under house arrest for a larger 11 period of time, yes. 12 Q. That was in about 1988 or 1989 when he was under house 13 arrest? 14 A. I can't really recall. It was -- I did read it from a 15 couple of years ago, but that sounds right. 16 Q. Now, during the time that Abdel Rahman was in prison in 17 Egypt, he smuggled out various tapes, is that right? 18 A. He did not need to smuggle out anything. He -- 19 Q. Mr. -- 20 A. In Egypt there were no restrictions on him preaching in 21 prison and people taping him and giving those tapes out to the 22 relatives when they come and visit. It's not like there was 23 an order not to tape. The word "smuggle" is probably 24 mischaracterization, or maybe it was just used in certain 25 things, but I don't think the word smuggling is very ... SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9460 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I show a page of Exhibit 2 MY550LT4 in evidence? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 Q. I show you page 8. Mr. Yousry, directing your attention to 5 the top of that page, the second to the third line of that 6 page, it states there, does it not, the Sheikh smuggled out 7 various tapes during the above-mentioned detention? 8 A. Again, this portion of the dissertation was not edited. 9 It's a very early version, and those words, I believe, were 10 taken from other sources. And I did not work on them. So I'm 11 just saying, there were no restriction on him at the time to 12 preach in prison and send the tapes out. So even if it's here, 13 a draft of the dissertation is not a final product. 14 Q. But this is a draft that you wrote, correct? 15 A. Yes, that I used several sources for -- to write, yes. 16 Q. Now, with respect to the tapes that were released while 17 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman was in prison, his reason for doing 18 that, as you understood it, was because he realized the 19 importance and the power of the word, correct? 20 A. I believe he realized that since he was blind, according to 21 my research, that's why he chose to become a preacher, yes. 22 Q. And these tapes called upon members of the Islamic Group 23 and their supporters and other Egyptians to revolt against the 24 government of Mubarak, correct? 25 A. Again, I hate to say this, but that's an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9461 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 overgeneralization. Most of these tapes are what they call in 2 Arabic Dowa, which is inviting people to convert to Islam. 3 Inviting Muslims to convert to, quote/unquote, true Islam from 4 the Sheikh's perspective. 5 But, yes, absolutely. Some of these sermons were a 6 call for people to resist, that is correct, yes. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display the same exhibit 8 again. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, showing you, again, page eight of Exhibit 11 MY550LT4. Starting on the second line at the top of the page, 12 you wrote -- and part of it is quoting someone else, but you 13 wrote the sentence that says "realizing the importance and the 14 power of the word," the Sheikh smuggled out various tapes 15 during the above mentioned detentions, calling upon members of 16 the al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya, their supporters and all honest 17 Egyptians to revolt against the nonMuslim, corrupt and 18 oppressive system of Mubarak. 19 Correct? 20 A. That is correct, yes. I have -- 21 Q. And the next sentence that you wrote says, moreover, he 22 urged them to resist, quote, the international strategies to 23 destroy Islam on the part of the hateful crusade, sneaky 24 Zionism and backstabbing communism, unquote. 25 You wrote that sentence as well, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9462 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is a quote from someplace else, yes. 2 Q. You're quoting what Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman said but you 3 wrote the sentence contained in the quotation, correct? 4 A. Precisely, yes. 5 Q. Now, in these tapes Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman also reminds 6 Muslims to help the Palestinians liberate their land, correct? 7 A. I believe so, yes. 8 MS. BAKER: Again, your Honor, if I might show the 9 same exhibit. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. Showing you page 8 of Exhibit MY550LT4. Directing your 12 attention to the second paragraph. It reads in part, starting 13 on the third line of that paragraph, help the Palestinians 14 liberate their land, fight against not only Israelis but 15 nonIsraeli Zionists as well, correct? 16 A. That is what it says here, yes. Still, this is a draft and 17 not finished product, yes. 18 Q. Now, as I think you have already mentioned, there came a 19 time later when Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman was under house arrest 20 in Egypt, correct? 21 A. I can't recall the dates, but, yes, he was, for a large 22 period of time, yes. Long period of time. I'm sorry. 23 Q. Now, during his house arrest the Sheikh once again 24 communicated with his supporters, the public and his assistants 25 through cassettes, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9463 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 A. Through cassettes, through -- actually, it's also quoted in 2 my dissertation that they used to leave the house and go preach 3 someplace else and come back. So, yes, spreading his word, 4 yes. 5 Q. The method, one method by which he spread the word while he 6 was under house arrest was through making cassettes and having 7 them brought out, correct? 8 A. That is basically what they do, yes. 9 Q. Now, the tapes that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman made while he 10 was under house arrest, at least some of them were removed from 11 their frames, hidden in shoes, groceries and milk bottles and 12 smuggled out of his home, correct? 13 A. That is according to my research, yes. Actually, these 14 were actual police reports so ... 15 Q. But you felt that that information was sufficiently 16 reliable -- 17 A. Yes, I think it was. It was correct, yes. 18 Q. Would you let me finish my question, please. 19 A. I'm sorry. 20 Q. You felt that the information was sufficiently reliable for 21 you to include it in a draft of a portion of your dissertation, 22 correct? 23 A. Sure, yes. 24 Q. Now, in these tapes that were run out while Sheikh Omar 25 Abdel Rahman was under house arrest, he again spoke about the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9464 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 Mubarak regime and called upon the Egyptian people to rise up 2 against the nonMuslim and corrupt government as the Sheikh 3 viewed it, correct? 4 A. Throughout this whole period the Sheikh was in negotiation 5 with the Mubarak regime. So he was using whatever -- according 6 to my assessment, whatever means were available to him, A, to 7 negotiate with the president; and, B, to try to govern his 8 support for what he believed to be the right thing to do. 9 So it wasn't as if he was doing one thing, period. He 10 was doing two things. He was negotiating and at the same time 11 trying to govern that support. So according to my research, 12 this -- at this point President Mubarak was ready to make a 13 deal for them. 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, again, my question was a very narrow one. I'm 15 asking you about statements that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman made 16 in these tape-recordings. And among those statements he called 17 upon the Egyptian people to rise up against Mubarak's nonMuslim 18 and corrupt government, correct? 19 A. That is what is mentioned in my dissertation, yes. 20 Q. Now, in the tapes Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman also issued a 21 warning to the Mubarak government that if even one member of 22 the movement, meaning the Islamic Group, was killed, that there 23 would be grave consequences, correct? 24 A. At that time there were no militant struggle against the 25 government. According to my research, that started in 1990s. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9465 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 So, yes, that is correct. There were negotiation. They were 2 trying to show the government that they are strong, they have 3 support. So, yes. 4 Q. So he made this statement that if a member of the Islamic 5 Group was killed, it would bring grave consequences, correct? 6 A. He probably made that several times, not only one tape, 7 yes. 8 Q. Now, during the time period between -- 9 THE COURT: Whenever there's a convenient time. 10 MS. BAKER: Actually, your Honor, I was about to move 11 on to a new topic, so that would be fine. 12 THE COURT: OK. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll break for 13 the day. 14 Ladies and gentlemen, please, please remember my 15 continuing instructions. Please, don't talk about this case at 16 all, among yourselves or with anyone when you go home this 17 evening. Please, please, don't look at or listen to anything 18 to do with the case. If you should see or hear something 19 inadvertently, please, simply turn away. Don't look at or 20 listen to anything to do with the case. Please, always 21 remember to keep an open mind until you've heard all of the 22 evidence, I've instructed you on the law and you've gone to the 23 jury room to begin your deliberations. Have a very good 24 evening and I look forward to seeing you at 9:30 tomorrow 25 morning. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9468 4bmesat5 Yousry - cross 1 (Pages 9466 through 9467 sealed by order of the Court) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: All right. There were first a couple of 4 matters that Mr. Ruhnke asked me to reserve on on 716 and 717. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. Do you want me to be 6 heard on those? 7 THE COURT: Sure. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, Exhibit 717 is apparently a 9 front page of Asharq Al-Awsat. 10 THE COURT: Al-Hayat? Al-Hayat? 11 MR. RUHNKE: 717? 12 THE COURT: I think so. 13 MR. RUHNKE: I have it as Asharq. 14 THE COURT: You think that was 716? 15 MR. RUHNKE: I'm looking at an exhibit that says 16 Asharq next to 717. Maybe I'm missing something. 17 MS. BAKER: Mr. Ruhnke is correct. 717 is Asharq 18 Al-Awsat. 19 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, the objection was -- 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry. And what is 716 then? 21 MR. RUHNKE: 716 is the front page of an article from 22 Al-Hayat. 23 THE COURT: OK. 24 MR. RUHNKE: From August 19, 1993, which was found in 25 Mr. Yousry's home, taken during the search of Mr. Yousry's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9469 4bmesat5 1 home. 2 THE COURT: OK. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Starting with 717, your Honor, the 4 article on the left-hand side in the box has to do with the 5 bombing of the United States Cole, and apparently quotes Rifa'i 6 Taha. 7 In the middle of the page is a photograph that 8 appears, to my eyes, to have been the aftermath of some kind of 9 car bombing with dead bodies depicted in the photograph. And 10 my -- I mean, the question was posed, is this a typical Asharq 11 front page, I think was the question. 12 And I object to the relevance of just picking a 13 newspaper article or front page out of all the front pages in 14 the world and saying, is this a newspaper article front page? 15 I don't know what the relevance of showing my client the front 16 page of Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper, assumes it's widely -- 17 assumes it's read all over the world. 18 So I object to this on relevance, particularly object 19 to the fact that the article does contain a discussion of USS 20 Cole, although obviously it is in Arabic. But the article, the 21 item also does display, you know, the aftermath of what appears 22 to have been the violent death of at least two people that I 23 can see in the photograph. And I'm advised that the photograph 24 shows Israeli police officers investigating the car bombing of 25 two Palestinians or a bomb that exploded in the car of two SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9470 4bmesat5 1 Palestinians. 2 But if the purpose is to illustrate what a front page 3 of Asharq looks like, then I object to this particular front 4 page. 5 THE COURT: OK. 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the relevance is because in 7 the banner portion across the top of the front page it has 8 certain information relating to the distribution or 9 availability of the newspaper, or at least what the newspaper 10 itself professes about its distribution and availability. 11 I do not intend to ask Mr. Yousry about any portions 12 other than the banner-type portion across the top of the page. 13 I am not offering a translation of any of the articles on the 14 page, and I have no objection to the photograph being redacted, 15 if that's an issue. 16 The relevance here is that to the extent that 17 Mr. Yousry read Asharq Al-Awsat and the banner across the top 18 of this page is typical, then he saw on some number of 19 occasions certain information relating to the availability of 20 the newspaper. 21 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the fact that Asharq 22 describes itself as the leading Arabic international newspaper, 23 while maybe is a bit self-serving, I don't understand the 24 relevance of this. Mr. Yousry has testified about Asharq, what 25 his understanding is, and it should be left at that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9471 4bmesat5 1 THE COURT: Well, I'll sustain an objection to 2 Government Exhibit 717 based on the contents of the front page. 3 And -- 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm willing to redact so that 5 it is just the banner across the top of the front page and 6 there aren't any articles or photographs. And I would just 7 proffer that in addition to the line that Mr. Ruhnke read in 8 which the newspaper characterizes itself, it also says in 9 Arabic in the banner portion across the top of the page, 10 published in London and distributed throughout the world and is 11 carried via satellites to each of the following. And then it 12 lists a number of different countries. 13 THE COURT: OK. The -- is there an objection to the 14 banner with the front page redacted? 15 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor, but this is just 16 hearsay. I mean, this is -- 17 THE COURT: It is. 18 MR. RUHNKE: -- Asharq's -- 19 THE COURT: Well, you're right. It is hearsay. What 20 Asharq Al-Awsat says about itself is hearsay. It's -- so the 21 question is what the witness' state of mind -- it can be 22 admitted only to the witness' state of mind with respect to the 23 widely publicized nature of Asharq Al-Awsat, which has some 24 relevance. Whether the witness recognizes the banner and 25 recalls seeing it are matters to be -- matters to be explored SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9472 4bmesat5 1 with the witness. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I think Ms. Baker has 3 basically explored the limits of his knowledge. He said he 4 assumes it. Certainly he doesn't know for sure. 5 I think the clear purpose of the article -- I mean, it 6 was pretty plain. What the government was attempting to do 7 here is to say statements of Ms. Stewart's appear in Al-Asharq. 8 This newspaper was distributed throughout the Arabic world and, 9 therefore, it was particularly harmful. 10 I think the government seeks actually to offer it for 11 the truth, not as it bears on Mr. Yousry's state of mind. He 12 didn't know where the newspaper -- obviously he did not know 13 where Ms. Stewart's statements were going to be published. And 14 so I think that's the purpose, is to offer it for the truth and 15 I object for that purpose, if she wants to explore it any 16 further. But I think Mr. Yousry has exhausted his knowledge of 17 where Asharq goes. 18 MR. TIGAR: We join the objection, your Honor, and 19 particularly because, as Mr. Ruhnke points out, the context 20 here was a conversation with Lynne Stewart and about Lynne 21 Stewart. She doesn't speak Arabic. There's no conceivable way 22 in which she could be aware of this, so the nonhearsay 23 purpose -- you know, there's a 403 problem with offering it for 24 the nonhearsay purpose, given the government's already explored 25 it with their questions. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9473 4bmesat5 1 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the Court could give the jury 3 a limiting instruction that this evidence is offered for its 4 effect on Mr. Yousry's state of mind. 5 And the extent of his knowledge about the distribution 6 of these newspapers is relevant because he was an essential 7 link in the chain through which Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's 8 statement was released to these very newspapers. 9 Your Honor, just to be clear, we're agreeing -- we 10 would agree to a limiting instruction with respect to these 11 exhibits. To the extent that Mr. Yousry has testified without 12 reference to these exhibits, obviously there is not a limiting 13 instruction as to that. 14 THE COURT: He's already admitted on the transcript 15 that the three most influential papers were Al-Hayat, Asharq 16 Al-Awsat and Al-Quds. 17 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor, but it's -- to say that 18 they're influential is not necessarily the same thing as 19 knowledge of how widely distributed or available they are, 20 which is why we request the additional evidence. 21 THE COURT: What about Government Exhibit 716? 22 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, it's essentially offered to 23 the same extent and for the same purpose. On Government 24 Exhibit 716 there is, down the right-hand side of the page, a 25 price list that lists all the countries in which the country is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9474 4bmesat5 1 available and the prices for which it is sold in those 2 countries. 3 And so, again, we're not offering a translation of any 4 article. We're not interested in the content of any of the 5 articles. Just the price list down the right-hand side. As to 6 this one, I would say this obviously is a clipping that 7 Mr. Yousry himself clipped and retained. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Those are kind of different issues. 9 Whether he clipped them and retained them or not has nothing to 10 do with what purpose it's being offered for, because obviously 11 the Asharq he didn't clip from. 12 The information along the sideline about where it's 13 sold and for how much is plainly being offered for the truth of 14 that. She's free to explore Mr. Yousry's understanding of 15 where this paper is sold, and there's no limiting instruction 16 that can go along with a newspaper that says, you know, we are 17 sold in the foreign countries, we are distributed during 18 satellite. That's not Mr. Yousry -- if it's not offered for 19 Mr. Yousry's state of mind. 20 And I think we're getting a little attenuated from the 21 purposes, did he understand that if someone made a statement to 22 Reuters, if that statement was later picked up in newspapers, 23 that these are widely circulated newspapers. He's given the 24 government that. 25 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, in addition, this paper is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9475 4bmesat5 1 dated 1993. The relevant state of mind is a conversation about 2 which the prosecutor asked Mr. Yousry on June 15, 2000. So if 3 the purpose is to show that the newspaper is widely circulated, 4 A, she has it from his testimony about what he understood; and 5 B, the remoteness. 6 THE COURT: Well, there must be copies of Asharq 7 Al-Awsat and Al-Hayat from June of 2000 to resolve the issue of 8 remoteness, if that were the problem. 9 At this point I will sustain the objection to the 10 admissibility of the newspapers. But the witness can be 11 questioned with respect to whether he looked at, observed in 12 his frequent review of Asharq and Al-Hayat where it was 13 published, what cities, what -- how widely it was distributed 14 as to both. 15 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I'd also make a request, and 16 that is if the government has any further exhibits that are 17 entirely in a nonEnglish format, that we be tendered a 18 translation at the time the government offers the exhibit in 19 evidence in the presence of the jury. 20 There's no conceivable way that our team could have 21 made an intelligible objection to either of these exhibits at 22 the time that they were offered. And I don't want to interrupt 23 the proceedings, but my understanding is that it is a 24 requirement that proceedings be conducted in the English 25 language and so on, except to the extent necessary to do other SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9476 4bmesat5 1 things that the prosecutor's doing. So that's a request that I 2 would make. 3 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, in general with Arabic 5 language exhibits we provide translations, but for these 6 matters, I don't actually know. I'd have to look in the file. 7 I don't recall whether I actually had translations for both of 8 them, because, again, my questions were going to be very 9 limited questions in the nature of, isn't that a price list and 10 doesn't it list countries? So I didn't necessarily have a 11 formal translation prepared, but in general with such exhibits, 12 there are translations. And they will be given to counsel when 13 the exhibits are offered. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the other matter that 16 concerned me is that I understand that Mr. Yousry's drafts of 17 portions of his dissertation are in evidence now, as are his 18 notebooks. 19 Now, with respect to the draft dissertations, they 20 were offered not for the truth. The government conceivably 21 could offer them as prior out-of-court statements by Mr. Yousry 22 as nonhearsay without regard to the personal knowledge 23 requirement, and they would simply come in to the extent they 24 were relevant. 25 When offered, they were limited to their effect on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9477 4bmesat5 1 Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind. And so I 2 want to make clear that, first, I think there should be a 3 limiting instruction with respect to the government reading or 4 having Mr. Yousry read these things to the jury; that this 5 examination, as with the exhibit itself, is restricted. 6 But then there's the other problem, and that is that 7 the prosecutor began to interrogate Mr. Yousry without 8 preceding questions with such things as, did you say in your 9 dissertation draft, did you -- you know, did you write? She 10 asked him globally, did this happen in Egypt in 1980? Did 11 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman say this in Egypt? Did this person 12 say that? Did this event take place? 13 Now, that evidence, your Honor, is objectionable as 14 the statement of an opinion that is not covered within the 15 narrow confines of opinion evidence in Rule 701, and, 16 therefore, inadmissible, unless Mr. Yousry is qualified as an 17 expert. 18 Second, these are not matters about which he has 19 personal knowledge. He could not have had personal knowledge 20 because he wasn't there. And so these questions raise an issue 21 for us. Now, the issue could go away if the Court would 22 instruct the jury that all of this examination is offered only 23 as to Mr. Yousry's intent, knowledge and state of mind. 24 Because if it's offered as, you know, here's the testimony 25 without regard to personal knowledge, these are Mr. Yousry's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9478 4bmesat5 1 opinions about these past events, well, I respect Mr. Yousry as 2 a scholar. And, therefore, I think we would be entitled to 3 cross-examine Mr. Yousry broadly about his knowledge as a 4 scholar of the political events in Egypt during the entire 5 period covered by his dissertation; an inquiry that I had 6 thought by the government's earlier motions in limine they did 7 not think that the defense was entitled to present. 8 And if we should disagree with Mr. Yousry's 9 characterization of political events in Egypt during that time, 10 then presumably that would open the door to our presenting our 11 expert to talk about those events. That's the problem with not 12 confining this evidence in some way, because, unconfined, it's 13 simply inadmissible as opinion evidence and lack of personal 14 knowledge. 15 As I say, I think an instruction would cure the 16 problem and -- but I -- and I didn't want to interrupt what was 17 going on in front of the jury, because this is a rather complex 18 issue that's been raised by the way the government's chosen to 19 go at this. 20 So, I guess my application is that this instruction be 21 given. If it's not to be given, I think the government should 22 justify this mode of examination, because they're -- after all, 23 there's no evidence, nor I think will there be, that Mr. Yousry 24 and Ms. Stewart ever sat down to give her instruction into the 25 political history of Egypt and all its ramifications. Yet I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9479 4bmesat5 1 can hear some of these questions and answers, you know, 2 plinking into holes that the government wants to fill in its 3 case. 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9480 4BM5SAT6 1 THE COURT: Ms. Baker. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I take a minute before I 3 respond? I would like to step out for a minute, if I may. 4 THE COURT: Yes, sure. We will take 10 minutes. 5 MS. BAKER: Thanks. 6 (Recess) 7 THE COURT: May I talk to the lawyers for just a 8 moment? 9 (Page 9481 SEALED by order of the Court) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9482 4BM5SAT6 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, having reflected on the matter 4 and discussed it among the members of the government team, we 5 would consent to an instruction that this line of questioning 6 is evidence only against Mr. Yousry. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I object to the word 8 "against". Actually, "as relevant only as to Mr. Yousry" is, I 9 think, a more accurate way of putting it. 10 MR. TIGAR: And not for the truth, your Honor? 11 MS. BAKER: No, we object to that, your Honor. 12 Because of course when the government elicits prior statements 13 from a defendant, those are not hearsay and therefore there is 14 not a reason for a not-for-the-truth instruction. 15 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, these aren't prior statements, 16 they're made in Court by the witness, and if offered for their 17 truth there is only two positions on the switch. If offered 18 for their truth the only way they can come in is if they're 19 relevant. And if they're relevant, then the political history 20 of Egypt for this period of time is relevant. And we are 21 entitled to take the witness on cross and to explore it. 22 That's our position. 23 MS. BAKER: The government would object to exploration 24 to the political history of Egypt. This evidence is relevant 25 as to Mr. Yousry. It is reflective of, among other things, his SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9483 4BM5SAT6 1 knowledge, intent and state of mind. But there is no reason as 2 to Mr. Yousry for the evidence to be given any further limiting 3 instruction. 4 If it's not prior statements then it's not subject to 5 the hearsay rule. And there is simply no basis anywhere for a 6 not-for-the-truth instruction. The jury always hears a 7 witness' own testimony on the witness stand for its truth and 8 this testimony is offered for its truth with respect to 9 Mr. Yousry. 10 And so, we respectfully submit that a limiting 11 instruction that it's offered only with respect to Mr. Yousry 12 is sufficient. It addresses the concern that it would be used 13 against any other defendant and the fact that Mr. Yousry knows 14 these things and his giving this testimony does not change the 15 Court's prior ruling that the political situation in Egypt is 16 not relevant to the conduct with which the defendants are 17 charged. 18 MR. TIGAR: The difficulty with that assertion -- I 19 have it before me in LiveNote here -- the prosecutor says that 20 Mr. Yousry knows these things. 21 When a witness testifies from the witness stand, the 22 testimony has to be based on personal knowledge. It's Rule 23 602, unless it comes in under 701, which it doesn't because 24 it's not the circumstances under 701. 25 And, therefore, unless the government is saying this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9484 4BM5SAT6 1 is not for its truth, that is to say it's only -- which is an 2 explanation of this is only admitted as to Mr. Yousry and only 3 as to his knowledge, intent and state of mind -- then it's 4 inescapable, your Honor. 5 And what that has to do with is there is a broader 6 issue here. 7 The government, after having moved in limine to 8 exclude all the books in Ms. Stewart's office about the fact 9 that this man was tortured, that he came to maturity in a 10 repressive society and all the rest, now places on the record, 11 subject to certain limiting instructions, evidence about a very 12 one-sided view of those historical events. And we have 13 consented but -- somewhat reluctantly -- to a limiting 14 instruction but we respectfully submit it has to be not for the 15 truth because, I say, it is just not fair to open the door to 16 the government's particular theory of Egyptian history and 17 having closed it as to the one that we believe is more complete 18 and accurate. 19 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer for a moment? 21 THE COURT: Sure. 22 (Counsel conferring) 23 THE COURT: I will guide the parties' thinking on the 24 subject. 25 The charges in the case relate to conspiracies that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9485 4BM5SAT6 1 are charged from 1997 into 2002. And the evidence of the truth 2 of certain facts prior to 1997 has some relevance to what 3 happens between 1997 and 2002. In particular, who Sheikh 4 Rahman is and what his importance to a conspiracy is obviously 5 has some relevance which goes back beyond or before 1997. 6 On the other hand, there is a lot of history being 7 talked about here which is far more relevant to the knowledge, 8 intent and state of mind of the person who wrote it, thought 9 about it, wrote it down in the same way that the materials that 10 Ms. Stewart had or that Mr. Sattar had in their respective 11 homes or office is more relevant to their knowledge, intent and 12 state of mind and, in fact, usually came in with those sorts of 13 limiting instructions. 14 And I would have more to say on this but the 15 government wanted to consult somewhat further. 16 (Counsel conferring) 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, with respect to questioning of 18 Mr. Yousry regarding Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and the Islamic 19 group and their beliefs and conduct, we take your Honor's point 20 and would agree to an instruction that that evidence is offered 21 as evidence of Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of 22 mind. 23 THE COURT: Okay. I think that that really is, this 24 testimony, it relates to the line of questioning so far which 25 is based on, plainly, statements in Mr. Yousry's thesis and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9486 4BM5SAT6 1 begins with the history. I mean, you've described it as Omar 2 Abdel Rahman and the Islamic group which is a broad description 3 of the last 15 minutes or so. 4 So, the instruction would be that the testimony is 5 offered only with respect to Mr. Yousry and only as to his 6 knowledge, intent and state of mind. 7 All right. 8 MR. TIGAR: And your Honor, we had requested the 9 not-for-the-truth instruction -- not for the truth of what is 10 said. 11 This is a very difficult thing because I don't wish to 12 cast any aspersions on Mr. Yousry who I think is a 13 distinguished scholar and whose work is careful and I think he 14 has done a good job with that, but we do request that 15 instruction because, as we would request an instruction if 16 somebody put a book in evidence, we do request that additional 17 language -- not for the truth of what is asserted but only as 18 to Mr. Yousry only as to his knowledge, intent and state of 19 mind. 20 Because otherwise, your Honor, the inference would be 21 well, it is for the truth. And of course, we would, because 22 that truth-ness of it describes a subject matter that the 23 government is raising, then we would feel entitled, without 24 such a limiting instruction, to cross-examine to tell the rest 25 of the story. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9487 4BM5SAT6 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't believe that the 2 instruction was phrased the way Mr. Tigar is now requesting 3 when it was given during Mr. Yousry's direct examination as to 4 areas that he was testifying about. I agree that it was 5 phrased that way with respect to the notebooks, with respect to 6 the contents of the telephone calls that he was offering. 7 But, when Mr. Yousry was sitting there on the stand 8 and testifying that he had a conversation with Lynne Stewart 9 and she said X, or he had a conversation with Mr. Jabara and he 10 said Y; my recollection is that the Court gave the instruction 11 at that point, that that testimony was offered only for its 12 effect on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind. 13 And so we would request, parallel to that, that this 14 instruction be phrased the same way. 15 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the difficulty is this, in 16 terms of the jury's perception, Mr. Yousry is clearly a scholar 17 who has studied these issues. And there is this risk that the 18 jurors will accept, much like the testimony about this is how 19 Jamaican drug dealers work, or this is how the Mafia works, or 20 whatever, not because they've been instructed to do so but 21 that's just because that's people's tendencies to value these 22 assertions. 23 And the difficulty is compounded by the prosecutors 24 having asked question after question, This is interpretation of 25 the Muslim religion. This is interpretation of the Quran. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9488 4BM5SAT6 1 It is to avoid what I would think of as my duty to my 2 client to explore these things at some length in 3 cross-examination, to pull that string that leads me to suggest 4 that this instruction not for the truth is what's required here 5 to try to head off the misuse. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, also, I mean I think when you 7 are instructing the jury that it is admissible only on 8 knowledge, intent and state of mind, that is simply a shorthand 9 for the broader statement it is not being offered for the truth 10 of the matter. And that's implicit in this kind of testimony, 11 I think, or that's how I always viewed it when your Honor was 12 offering the shorter version of that instruction, since it was 13 requested -- requested with great frequency -- during 14 Mr. Yousry's direct examination. 15 One of the dangers -- I mean, it is pretty plain where 16 the government is going with this line of questioning -- 17 THE COURT: I am acutely sensitive to being fair to 18 all sides with the instructions so that they are not construed 19 differently. 20 Mr. Yousry did testify about some of this on his 21 direct with respect to various views that were had by the 22 Islamic group and his perception of that and his perception of 23 Omar Abdel Rahman. And I don't want to change the nature of 24 the instructions that I have been giving in any way in fairness 25 to all of the parties and in carefully following what the law SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9489 4BM5SAT6 1 is. 2 When I say that the -- I think -- now, I don't know if 3 I was asked with respect to all of the testimony of Mr. Yousry 4 on various points by the government to say that statements were 5 not offered for the truth but only as evidence of knowledge, 6 intent or state of mind. 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, Ms. Shellow-Lavine has just 8 handed me -- 9 THE COURT: Hold on. I know that's the gist of the 10 instruction with respect to the prison call transcripts and the 11 other calls in 1701 to 1730. I know that it was the substance 12 also of the instruction with respect to the Yousry notebooks 13 with a longer instruction on Yousry notebooks. 14 And I don't have the instruction with respect to the 15 thesis. 16 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. I'm sorry to interrupt. 17 Ms. Shellow-Lavine has handed me page 8963 of the 18 transcript, your Honor, and it reads as follows: 19 Ladies and gentlemen, this Exhibit is not admitted for 20 the truth of any of its contents. And, moreover, with respect 21 to the documents offered by Mr. Yousry, knowledge of alleged 22 human rights abuses in Egypt are not a defense to the charges 23 in this case. 24 That's what the reporter got. And the "with respect 25 to the documents" was the result of a lengthy colloquy that we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9490 4BM5SAT6 1 had had with your Honor. 2 But that is just -- that was an instruction given 3 immediately after you received the four thesis exhibits, 4 MY-550, 551, 552, 553 -- no, excuse me, five exhibits -- 0, 1, 5 2, 3, 4, LT. The 550 series, your Honor. 6 Again, I apologize for interrupting, I thought that 7 was what your Honor was looking for. 8 Would it be helpful to, for the parties to look at the 9 transcript overnight and meet the Court at 9:00 in the morning 10 with the results of any further thoughts about this? 11 Our position is not likely to change. I have stated 12 it as clearly as I can but -- so, this is what we say we 13 believe is required. 14 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, my concern, it's a little 16 puzzling -- I'm afraid the jury may find it a little bit 17 puzzling to have the Court use the word "truth" in an 18 instruction about testimony because it almost seems like it 19 could have some relation to the assessment of the credibility 20 of a witness, which is why I'm proposing what I think is an 21 instruction that accomplishes the same goal without that word, 22 which is an instruction. 23 And, again, the jury is presumed to follow an 24 instruction when it's told that evidence can only be used a 25 certain way, it's presumed to follow that instruction. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9491 4BM5SAT6 1 And so, if the jury is told this evidence is offered 2 only with respect to Mr. Yousry and it is evidence of his 3 knowledge, intent and state of mind, then the law presumes that 4 the jury will follow that instruction and the government 5 submits that that instruction is adequate to meet the issues 6 that the defense has raised. 7 THE COURT: Well, there is another way of, or slightly 8 different way of doing it. 9 The truthful content of the testimony -- or the 10 alleged truthful content of the testimony is my research 11 revealed that these things happened. And that produces a state 12 of mind in the witness. 13 The government is right that when the Court is not 14 giving an instruction, that that alleged truthful content 15 should not be received for the truthful content if the content 16 is a witness saying I did research and reached the following 17 conclusions. It's the underlying events which are not being 18 received for the truth of the underlying events, not historical 19 events. 20 And at the very least, the instruction would be it is 21 being received, it is being offered only with respect to 22 Mr. Yousry and only as to his knowledge, intent and state of 23 mind. 24 A further amendment to that would be something like: 25 And not for the truth of the historical laments that be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9492 4BM5SAT6 1 considered. 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I'm sorry, am I interrupting 3 the Court? 4 I would, if not my suggestion: And not for the truth 5 of the sources relied on or quoted in Mr. Yousry's historical 6 research. 7 Sources relied on or quoted seems to get to the -- 8 seems to identify precisely what is not offered for the truth 9 because I accept your Honor's point, it is perfectly valid. 10 Mr. Yousry is testifying entirely truthfully about 11 research he conducted and conclusions that he reached in good 12 faith. What would be subject to question, would be the sources 13 relied on or quoted. 14 THE COURT: Let me make a suggestion. I was 15 attempting to draft an introduction which would say something 16 such as: You have heard testimony from Mr. Yousry about 17 conclusions he reached in his research. This testimony is 18 offered only with respect to Mr. Yousry and only as to his 19 knowledge, intent and state of mind, and not for the truth of 20 the sources he relied on or quoted. 21 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't mean to belabor the 22 issue but we are concerned that that instruction is overly 23 broad in light of the fact that the sources relied upon by 24 Mr. Yousry include Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and Ahmed Abdel 25 Sattar, both of whom are charged or unindicted co-conspirators. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9493 4BM5SAT6 1 And so, the truthfulness of the fact that they said 2 those things to him, that they were expressing their thoughts 3 or their beliefs when they said those things to him -- 4 THE COURT: But that would have been at a time -- the 5 thesis was when? 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, he worked on the thesis over a 7 period of years up to within the time periods of the charged 8 conspiracies. So, the documents themselves have footnotes 9 citing communications with Abdel Rahman and Sattar during the 10 periods of the charged conspiracy. 11 MR. TIGAR: But not in furtherance, your Honor. 12 We haven't had a single word here from Mr. Yousry 13 under this questioning about events beginning in 1997. These 14 are all 1978, whatever. So, whatever there would be in the 15 thesis about that simply would not be covered by your Honor's 16 instruction. 17 If the government plans to elicit questions about did 18 this person tell you this, did this person tell you that, fine. 19 All well and good. That then would pose a separate issue. But 20 we're not there yet. 21 If the government wishes to limit the instruction the 22 problem would be to make it longer, not shorter, which would 23 be, I respectfully submit, until the issue arises, unduly 24 complicated. Because then your Honor would have to make a 25 finding as to each such proffered source that it was during an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9494 4BM5SAT6 1 in furtherance, assuming it was an 801(d)(2)(E), which I think 2 is the only basis on which any of those statements would be 3 offered globally against everybody. 4 We consent, by the way, to the instruction your Honor 5 has proposed. 6 THE COURT: Why wouldn't it be fair to give that 7 instruction so far and if there are subsequent -- we haven't 8 even reached the point in terms of the development of the 9 statements and the history if there are statements by Omar 10 Abdel Rahman or Mr. Sattar which are subsequent to the history 11 that we have been dealing with, to deal with them as separate 12 statements. And, presumably, there would be more 13 particularization with respect to statements by Sheikh Rahman 14 or Mr. Sattar or a subsequent period of time. 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the dissertation excerpts 16 themselves reflect that Abdel Rahman was a source of much of 17 the information that's in there. 18 Now, when I'm questioning Mr. Yousry I'm not always 19 necessarily intending to limit my questions to his knowledge as 20 reflected in his dissertation but also his knowledge more 21 broadly. But I cite the dissertation drafts just as an 22 indicator of the fact that, to a significant extent, his 23 information came from Sheikh Abdel Rahman himself and that 24 information was conveyed during a period of time of the charged 25 conspiracies. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9495 4BM5SAT6 1 Even though the information itself relates to 2 historical events, Abdel Rahman was essentially saying to 3 Mr. Yousry during the conspiracy periods, here's this 4 information about me, I'm telling you this accurate information 5 and it's part of -- in the government's view -- co-conspirators 6 sharing information and forming the sort of bond that is 7 necessary for the conspiracy to operate. 8 And that's why we are concerned that the instruction 9 posed by your Honor could be viewed as suggesting, as casting 10 doubt on the truthfulness that Abdel Rahman said those things 11 to Mr. Yousry. 12 And so, instead, if the Court feels that it is 13 necessary to include some statement within the instruction 14 about not for the truth, we would ask that it be phrased more 15 along the lines that the Court -- I think it was the Court 16 initially suggested with respect to historical events or past 17 events or something along those lines instead of with regard to 18 sources. 19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, this is getting to be like 20 peeling layers of an onion, every time we peel a layer we find 21 another one. 22 If the government identifies within Mr. Yousry's 23 research statements that they maintain are 801(d)(2)(E) 24 evidence, I think we need to know which statements those are 25 that the government is going to be offering for the truth of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9496 4BM5SAT6 1 the matter asserted. 2 I mean, there are -- if you go through this research 3 project, footnotes to particular conversations with Sheikh 4 Rahman, for example, at MCC, New York. There are references in 5 footnotes to particular conversations with Ahmed Abdel Sattar 6 at various times. 7 Certainly on the tapes and intercepted conversations 8 we have seen areas of the conversation where Mr. Yousry will 9 turn to an attorney and say, May I ask some questions regarding 10 my dissertation? I think on the February 19 visit there were 11 many examples of that. Or one long 20-minute or 25-minute 12 portion of that visit was taken up with, he very clearly and 13 directly stated to Mr. Jabara, I want to ask some questions 14 about my dissertation, may I? Mr. Jabara says, Yes. Then a 15 whole series of questions follow. 16 Now, if the government is now taking the view that 17 statements that post-date the indictment's citation at the 18 commencement of the conspiracy have an independent purpose 19 which is that they're offered for the truth, then we need to 20 parse those out and figure out what those are because they 21 raise different issues, as Mr. Tigar is raising. 22 If Sheikh Rahman's statements to Mr. Yousry for his 23 dissertation aren't to be taken as truth for things going on in 24 Egypt, then it's fair game to counter that to say, no, those 25 aren't true and here is evidence that counters what the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9497 4BM5SAT6 1 government is arguing. 2 So, I'm not sure if the government is seriously 3 maintaining that some of these statements are in fact 4 801(d)(2)(E) but they need to either step forward and say, Yes, 5 we are, or, No, we're not. Not that they may be. 6 THE COURT: I will let the government respond in a 7 moment, but. 8 The difference between the parties, despite what they 9 say, is very narrow, because at this point when we are dealing 10 with the testimony from Mr. Yousry about conclusions he reached 11 in his research. There is no objection that the testimony is 12 offered only with respect to -- there is no objection it is 13 offered only as to his knowledge, intent and state of mind. 14 And the defendant would like me to say, And not for the truth 15 of the sources he relied on for quoting, and the government 16 would prefer, Not for the truth of the historical facts 17 described. 18 Those are substantially the same. Because whether you 19 describe it as not for the truth of the subject matter of the 20 historical events or not for the truth of what people told him 21 about the historical events, it is the same. 22 MR. RUHNKE: I agree. So far so good. That's the 23 same. But if we are going to get into another category of 24 evidence which the government says is co-conspirator evidence, 25 then -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9498 4BM5SAT6 1 THE COURT: Well, sufficient under the day I'm dealing 2 with the limited instruction that's dealing with the 3 examination with respect, essentially, to the conclusions he 4 reached in his thesis and reflected in his testimony. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 6 Well then, sufficient under the day I agree, but there 7 may be another day coming. That's what I'm worried about. 8 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I had not understood that the 9 government consented to the historical events language that 10 your Honor proposed as the alternative. 11 THE COURT: I thought that that was a -- 12 MR. TIGAR: If they do consent. 13 MS. BAKER: The government's position is that we don't 14 believe that the instruction needs to include any sentence 15 about not for the truth. But if the Court disagrees and has 16 decided to include such a sentence, we ask that it be phrased 17 not with reference to sources but instead with a reference to 18 something like historical events. 19 MR. TIGAR: Then, your Honor, with that understanding 20 then we would also consent to that instruction. But I would 21 underscore Mr. Yousry's point. 22 From the outset we have decried the idea that the 23 lawyer becomes a conspirator under the government's theory. 24 Equally -- that's representing -- that's representing 25 Ms. Stewart. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9499 4BM5SAT6 1 I equally decry the statement made by the government 2 that there is a conspiratorial bond formed in the academic 3 setting. I mean, that is a statement that puts biographers of 4 controversial subject series at risk and, in my view, is 5 conspiracy law that undercuts academic freedom. 6 That said, that's something for another day. But I 7 think that some such analysis would interdict any Bourjaily 8 finding that the government might seek on the very broad theory 9 that's been advocated. 10 THE COURT: All right. Thus far, and subject to any 11 change as we come to a subsequent period or up to the point 12 where I'm asked to give any other instructions -- and in that 13 connection I point out that I gave continuing and very detailed 14 instructions throughout the direct testimony of Mr. Yousry, and 15 I'm fully aware that the rules of evidence allow different uses 16 on direct and on cross -- at this point, with respect to the 17 testimony so far and subject to other applications as we go 18 along from either party, it's sufficient now to give the 19 instruction that I set out in which the defendants agreed to 20 and which the government said they thought was a better 21 instruction if I thought that any instruction with respect to 22 the subject of truth was appropriate. 23 So, the instruction tomorrow would be: 24 You have heard testimony from Mr. Yousry about 25 conclusions he reached in his research. This testimony is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9500 4BM5SAT6 1 offered only with respect to Mr. Yousry and only as to his 2 knowledge, intent and state of mind and not for the truth of 3 the historical events described. 4 All right. 5 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I'm sorry. You have heard and 6 may continue to hear? That is we are asking for, 7 forward-looking instead of backward. 8 THE COURT: That's all right. 9 Okay, anything else? Anything the parties would like 10 to raise with me? 11 Yes, Ms. Baker. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, only one unrelated and 13 hopefully brief housekeeping matter. The other day, after 14 reading a stipulation that laid foundation, Mr. Ruhnke offered 15 two CDs of audio files which are marked Defense 2 and Defense 16 4. And at the time I agreed and then later, out of the 17 presence of the jury, asked that Defense 4 be stricken because 18 the government's objection had been sustained to the two calls 19 that were on it. 20 Subsequently, Mr. Ruhnke presented a different excerpt 21 of one of those calls to which the government did not have an 22 objection, and that other excerpt of that one call was received 23 in evidence today. 24 So, in light of that, I withdraw my previous request 25 that Defense 4 be stricken and would ask that it remain in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9501 4BM5SAT6 1 evidence now that a part of one of the calls on it has been 2 received. 3 THE COURT: No objection? 4 MR. RUHNKE: There is no objection, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right, defendant's 4 is then received 6 in evidence. The parties should correct their exhibits list. 7 (Defendant's Exhibit 4 received in evidence) 8 THE COURT: Does anyone think I should put that before 9 the jury? 10 MS. BAKER: I don't think you need to, your Honor, 11 because they didn't even know that it had been stricken. We 12 had previously agreed that they didn't need to be told that. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 And I don't need it right away, certainly, but I -- 15 the parties, at a convenient time, should give me the updated 16 Exhibit list which they check with each other so that I'm sure 17 that there are no disputes. Okay? 18 See you tomorrow morning at 9:00. 19 (Adjourned to 9:00 a.m., Tuesday, November 23, 2004) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9502 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 MOHAMMED YOUSRY 4 Direct By Mr. Ruhnke . . . . . . . . . . . . 9340 5 Cross By Ms. Baker: . . . . . . . . . . . . 9418 6 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 7 Exhibit No. Received 8 720 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9420 9 721 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9429 10 723 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9434 11 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS 12 Exhibit No. Received 13 MY1203, 1205, 1206, 1207, 1214, 1216, 1217, 14 1218, 1219, 1220, 1221, 1223, 1224, 1225, 15 1227, 1228, 1229x, 1230, 1231, 1233, 1234, 16 1236, 1237, 1238, 1239, 1240, 1241, 1242, 17 1243, 1244, 1245, 1246, 1247, 1248, 1249, 18 1251, 1252, 1253, 1254, 1255, 1256, 1257, 19 1258, 1259, 1262 and 1263 . . . . . . . . . 9345 20 MY1730X1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9377 21 MY Stip 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9383 22 MY Stip 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9384 23 MY2001T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9386 24 MY2002T, MY2003T . . . . . . . . . . . . 9387 25 GX-1700-MYA and GX-1701-MYA . . . . . . . 9403 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9503 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9501 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300