9333 4bmesat1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 22, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9334 4bmesat1 1 (Trial continuing) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Good morning, all. All right. Are we 4 ready to begin? 5 MR. RUHNKE: Actually, your Honor, maybe two minutes, 6 we could finish getting a stipulation signed. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we are ready to proceed now. 9 THE COURT: All right. If Mr. Yousry could take the 10 stand and I'll bring in the jury. 11 (Pages 9335 through 9338 sealed by order of the court) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9339 4bmesat1 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: The jurors are looking at the meal menu, 3 that's why we're delayed. 4 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, I've been informed by my client 5 that today is one of his visiting Mondays, so if we could break 6 at 4:30 sharp, I would appreciate it. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. PAUL: Thank you. 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9340 4bmesat1 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. As 3 always, very good to see you. Good to see you all. 4 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 6 you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 10 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, resumed 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 12 BY MR. RUHNKE: 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, when we broke for the day last week, last 14 Thursday, we were discussing the October 6, 2000, ghost written 15 fatwah. Do you remember that testimony? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. And was there a period of time as you listened to that call 18 and as you participated in it that Mr. Clark was out of the 19 room? 20 A. Yes, there was. 21 Q. And can you estimate of what percentage of that call 22 Mr. Clark was actually not physically in the room? 23 A. 90 percent maybe. 24 Q. I'm sorry? 25 A. 90 percent. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9341 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And do you recall what it was that you discussed with 2 Sheikh Rahman while Mr. Clark was not in the room? 3 A. I discussed with the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, all 4 the approved topics by Mr. Ramsey Clark; the boxes, moving of 5 the files from Mr. Clark's office to a storage area. Discussed 6 with him the newspaper reading to him was approved by 7 Mr. Clark, Nasser's case, several other issues that were 8 approved by Mr. Clark. 9 Q. Over the years that you participated in prison calls, calls 10 with Sheikh Rahman from prison, before they were -- started to 11 be recorded, after they started to be recorded, how frequently 12 did it happen that the attorneys gave you a list of approved 13 topics and then really didn't participate in the conversation 14 any further? 15 A. It was frequent. 16 Q. And did you use those opportunities to pursue any agenda 17 that you might have had? 18 A. I had no other agenda than doing my job. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm going to show you a series of documents, if 20 I may. And they're contained in these four loose-leaf binders. 21 THE COURT: You may approach. 22 MR. RUHNKE: May I approach? I'm sorry, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 Q. And have you looked at these documents before? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9342 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And they bear the series or number 1200, they're all 2 variations of the number 1200, is that correct? 3 A. That is correct, yes. 4 Q. What is contained, generally speaking, in the 1200 series 5 of exhibits, defense exhibits MY1200? 6 A. I believe these are the intercepted prison calls. 7 Q. When did the prison calls begin to be actually 8 tape-recorded, intercepted, do you recall? 9 A. June 23 of 2000. 10 Q. And in front of you are what? What's contained in those 11 binders? Again, generally speaking. 12 A. These are the transcripts of the intercepted phone calls, 13 the prison phone calls. 14 Q. Are they transcripts of all of the intercepted phone calls? 15 A. I would think so. I think these are the transcripts of the 16 phone calls that I was present, I participated in. 17 Q. So that those are calls that you participated in? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you know approximately how many of the prison calls 20 were actually intercepted and tape-recorded? 21 A. I believe there were 63 calls. 22 Q. And of those 63 calls that were intercepted, approximately 23 how many did you actually participate in? 24 A. I would say between 40 and 45. 25 Q. And is that what's contained in the 1200 series? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9343 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I believe so, yes. 2 Q. With one exception, pursuant to an agreement by the 3 parties, what is -- what percentage of the prison calls are 4 contained in those exhibits, what portion of them? 5 A. I believe all of them. 6 Q. Meaning every conversation? 7 A. Precisely, from beginning to end. 8 Q. And have you listened to the calls in the Arabic -- 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'm -- it's just not -- the 10 question and answer was unclear as to whether the binders 11 contained all 63 or the 40 to 45. 12 Q. Which -- what is in the binders, all the prison calls or 13 just the ones that you are participant in? 14 A. Just the ones that I participated in. 15 Q. And with one exception, how much of each of those calls 16 that you participated in is reproduced in those binders? 17 A. I believe 100 percent from beginning to end. 18 Q. So the beginning to end of every call? 19 A. Of each call. 20 Q. That you participated in? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And have you listened to those calls -- other than having 23 participated in them yourself, have you subsequently listened 24 to those calls in the Arabic language? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9344 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And do the transcripts that are contained in the 1200 2 series accurately reflect the -- what was on the audio files of 3 those conversations? 4 A. Yes, they do. 5 Q. And have you also looked at various excerpts from the 1200 6 series, excerpts of transcripts? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. And when you reviewed the excerpted transcripts, do they 9 reflect conversations that were part of the full conversation? 10 A. Yes, they do. 11 Q. And do the excerpts match what was said during the full 12 conversation? 13 A. Yes, to my knowledge. 14 Q. And what was said during the excerpts, was that actually 15 said during those conversations? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm going to offer at this 18 time the following exhibits: MY1203, 1205, 1206, 1207, 1214, 19 1216, 1217, 1218, 1219, 1220, 1221, 1223, 1224, 1225, 1227, 20 1228, 1229x, which is the call that has been redacted pursuant 21 to agreement, 1230, 1231, 1233, 1234, 1236, 1237, 1238, 1239, 22 1240, 1241, 1242, 1243, 1244, 1245, 1246, 1247, 1248, 1249, 23 1251, 1252, 1253, 1254, 1255, 1256, 1257, 1258, 1259, 1262 and 24 1263. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9345 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor -- 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MS. BAKER: -- no objection to exhibits in this series 4 being admitted. I would like to double check that list of 5 exhibit numbers at some point later, but I'll try to deal with 6 any issues as Mr. Ruhnke seeks to present them in case we have 7 disagreement about the numbers. Otherwise, no objection, 8 subject to a limiting instruction. 9 THE COURT: All right. Those exhibits that were just 10 listed are received. 11 (Defendant's Exhibits MY1203, 1205, 1206, 1207, 1214, 12 1216, 1217, 1218, 1219, 1220, 1221, 1223, 1224, 1225, 1227, 13 1228, 1229x, 1230, 1231, 1233, 1234, 1236, 1237, 1238, 1239, 14 1240, 1241, 1242, 1243, 1244, 1245, 1246, 1247, 1248, 1249, 15 1251, 1252, 1253, 1254, 1255, 1256, 1257, 1258, 1259, 1262 and 16 1263 received in evidence) 17 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen -- received subject 18 to checking, but as of now they're received. These exhibits 19 should -- let me go back. 20 These exhibits are subject to a limiting instruction, 21 ladies and gentlemen. 22 Let me ask one question. These are the transcripts, 23 or are they the underlying recordings? 24 MR. RUHNKE: These are the transcripts themselves, 25 your Honor, the Arabic translations. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9346 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: OK. They're all Arabic translations? 2 MR. RUHNKE: There's some English through it, but 3 they're primarily Arabic translations, yes. 4 THE COURT: And the parties agree that they're 5 received -- are the underlying recordings being received at 6 all? 7 MR. RUHNKE: We will offer them -- there's a 8 stipulation, I believe, that covers the underlying recordings 9 already, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: OK. So the transcripts are received in 11 evidence. To the extent that they are translations from the 12 Arabic, they're evidence. 13 As I've explained the use of transcripts, to the 14 extent that they are English, they are an aid to the ability of 15 the jurors to listen to the underlying recordings. And I've 16 already given you an explanation and a long instruction, and 17 I'll repeat it again in my final instructions, about the 18 difference between Arabic -- transcripts of underlying 19 recordings that are in Arabic, which are received in evidence, 20 and transcripts of underlying recordings which are in English, 21 which are received as an aid to the jury's listening to the 22 transcripts. 23 In addition, these exhibits are not admitted for the 24 truth of any of the contents of the exhibits. Mr. Yousry's 25 statements are admitted only as evidence of his knowledge, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9347 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 intent or state of mind. And statements by others which are 2 contained in the exhibits are admitted only for their effect, 3 if any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 4 All right. 5 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, at this point what we 6 propose to do is to read to the jury selected excerpts from 7 what is contained in the exhibits that your Honor just 8 admitted. And I'd ask Mr. Fanjou and Mr. Nepper to step 9 forward and help me in that. 10 The first excerpt we seek to offer is MY1206X3. And 11 that will be displayed, once your Honor gives permission to do 12 that, on the jurors' screen. 13 THE COURT: All right. This is simply a part of 14 MY1206, which is already admitted in evidence. Are you seeking 15 to admit 1206X3 separately? 16 MR. RUHNKE: No, your Honor. There's no need to, 17 because the full conversations are already in. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. RUHNKE: And if we may display that with the 20 Court's permission. 21 THE COURT: Yes, and you may read it. 22 MR. RUHNKE: I'm going to does that Mr. Fanjou read 23 the part of Abdeen Jabara. 24 THE COURT: You should indicate the date. 25 MR. RUHNKE: OK, I will. I will, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9348 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Mr. Fanjou will read the part of Abdeen Jabara. 2 Mr. Nepper will read the part of Mr. Yousry. And I'll read the 3 part of Omar Abdel Rahman. 4 This is a call dated June 25, 2000, and it's one of 5 the prison calls. If we can begin by reading, starting with 6 Mr. Fanjou reading Mr. Jabara's part. 7 (At this point, Exhibit 1206X3, in evidence, was 8 displayed and read to the jury) 9 MR. RUHNKE: And that's the end of that excerpt. 10 Your Honor, next we'd like to play or display to the 11 jury, beginning at line 16 from Government Exhibit 1733, and 12 display it to the jury. If I could just check what the date of 13 that conversation is. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. RUHNKE: The date of that conversation is 16 October 20 of 2000. And, again, if we could have the same 17 gentlemen back up here to read these parts. I'm sorry, just 18 Mr. Nepper. 19 Mr. Nepper will read the part of Mr. Yousry. I will 20 read the part of Abdel Rahman. Starting at line 16. If we 21 could have it displayed, with the Court's permission. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. RUHNKE: If we could highlight starting at line 24 16, please. You can't? OK. 25 We're just going to read starting at line 16 with -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9349 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Mr. Jabara begins. I'm sorry, that's me. This is in English. 2 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1733, in evidence, 3 was displayed and read to the jury) 4 MR. RUHNKE: And that's the end of that excerpt, your 5 Honor, at this time. 6 Next we're going to read from MY1231X1, MY1231X1. And 7 if I could have Mr. Fanjou back up here. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Again, Mr. Fanjou will read the part of 10 Mr. Jabara. Mr. Nepper read the part of Mr. Yousry. I'll read 11 the part of Omar Abdel Rahman. 12 And may we display and mark 1231X1, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. RUHNKE: If we could highlight the text part, 15 1231X1. 16 Your Honor, this is a call dated June 11, 2001. 17 1231X1 is from a call dated June 11, 2001, begins with 18 Mr. Jabara. 19 (At this point, Exhibit 1231X1, in evidence, was 20 displayed and read to the jury) 21 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, next, with the Court's 22 permission, we'd like to display and read from -- read 1240X1. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Which is a call dated October 5, 2001. 25 Can we display it, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9350 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. RUHNKE: And, again, I'll ask the same parties to 3 read the same roles. I'll read Sheikh Rahman. 4 (At this point, Exhibit 1240X1, in evidence, was 5 displayed and read to the jury) 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, that completes that excerpt. 7 We now would like to read from an excerpt designated 8 MY1207X1. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. RUHNKE: And may we display 1207X1, which is a 11 prison call that took place on August 1, 2000. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. RUHNKE: And highlight the text. I'll read the 14 part of Mr. Rahman and Mr. Nepper can read the part of 15 Mr. Yousry. 16 (At this point, Exhibit 1207X1, in evidence, was 17 displayed and read to the jury) 18 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we'd like to play an 19 excerpt from 1243, and it's marked 1243X1, very brief excerpt. 20 And the date of the call is October 26, 2001. 21 And, again, I will read the parts of Sheikh Rahman. 22 Mr. Nepper will read Mr. Yousry's part. There's a very brief 23 reference to Mr. Jabara, which I will also read. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. RUHNKE: May we display that, 1243X. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9351 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. Yes, you may. 2 MR. RUHNKE: It will take a second, your Honor. If we 3 could just highlight the text on that. Begins with Omar Abdel 4 Rahman. 5 (At this point, Exhibit 1243X, in evidence, was 6 displayed and read to the jury) 7 MR. RUHNKE: And, again, that's the end of that brief 8 excerpt. 9 We'd next like to play another excerpt from that 10 same -- I'm sorry, another excerpt from I think the same 11 conversation, 1243X2. Again, this is a call on October 26, 12 2001. May we display it? 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. RUHNKE: It begins with Sheikh Rahman. 15 (At this point, Exhibit 1243X2, in evidence, was 16 displayed and read to the jury) 17 MR. RUHNKE: And that's the end of that brief excerpt, 18 your Honor. 19 Next we'd like to display and read MY1244X1 from a 20 call that took place on October 2, 2001. I'll read Sheikh 21 Rahman's part and the brief attribution to Mr. Jabara. 22 May we display it, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 (At this point, Exhibit MY1244X1, in evidence, was 25 displayed and read to the jury) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9352 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, next we'd like to read 2 from MY1218X2, which is from a prison call dated September 15, 3 2001. Let me just be sure I've got the right one. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, 1218X2. If we could have that 6 displayed, with the Court's permission. 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. RUHNKE: And I'll read the part attributed to 9 Ramsey Clark and also Omar Abdel Rahman. 10 (At this point, Exhibit 1218X2, in evidence, was 11 displayed and read to the jury) 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we'd like to read an 13 excerpt that's designated MY1221X3. Again, it's from the 14 legal -- the prison calls. This one's from October 13, 2000. 15 And I'd like to -- could I display it and read it to 16 the jury, your Honor, if I may. 17 THE COURT: OK. 18 MR. RUHNKE: In this call I'll read the part of 19 Mr. Schilling, and the other parts remain the same. Mr. Nepper 20 will read Mr. Yousry, and I'll also read Sheikh Rahman. 21 (At this point, Exhibit MY1221X3, in evidence, was 22 displayed and read to the jury) 23 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we'd like to display and 24 read for the jury 1241X3, which is another excerpt from these 25 weekly calls. This one is dated October 12, 2001. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9353 4bmesat1 Yousry - direct 1 And Mr. Nepper will read Mr. Yousry's part, and I'll 2 read Mr. Sheikh Rahman's part. 3 May we display it, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 (At this point, Exhibit 1241X3, in evidence, was 6 displayed and read to the jury) 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we'd like to display and 8 read to the jury 1248X2, which is, again, an excerpt from the 9 weekly calls, this one dated December 13, 2001. 10 May we display it, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. RUHNKE: And I will read the parts of Sheikh 13 Rahman and of Mr. Jabara. 14 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1248X2, in 15 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9354 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we are going to read and 2 display to the jury, with your permission, MY-1252-X1, which is 3 from a weekly phone call dated January 11, 2002. 4 May I display it, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. RUHNKE: And I will ask that -- I will read the 7 part of Mr. Jabara and Sheikh Rahman, and Mr. Knepper will read 8 the part of Mr. Yousry. 9 (Whereupon Defendant's Exhibit MY-1252-X1, in 10 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 11 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we would like to read 12 and display MY--1236-X2, which is an excerpt from call that 13 took place on July 23, 2001. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. RUHNKE: In this excerpt it appears to be just 16 Mr. Yousry and Sheikh Rahman, so Sheikh Rahman begins. 17 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY--1236-X2, in 18 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, next we would like to play 20 and display Defendant's Exhibit MY--1216-X2 which is a call 21 that occurs on September 5, 2000. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. RUHNKE: And again, it appears to be just 24 Mr. Yousry and Sheikh Rahman and it begins with Sheikh Rahman. 25 (whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY--1216-X2, in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9355 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this point we would like 3 to display and read to the jury Defendant's Exhibit MY-1218-X1, 4 which is a transcript -- 5 THE COURT: Hold on. It's about 11:00 and it is 6 probably a convenient time for us to take a break. 7 MR. RUHNKE: That's fine, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Let's take 10 minutes. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 10 instruction. Please, don't talk about this case at all. 11 Please remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all 12 of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law, and you have 13 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 14 Have a good break. 15 (Jury not present) 16 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. Can I talk to 17 the lawyers, briefly? 18 (Page 9356 SEALED by order of the Court) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9357 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 (In open court) 2 (Recess) 3 (Pages 9358-9364 SEALED by order of the Court) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9365 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Mr. Yousry is on 5 the stand. 6 Mr. Fletcher? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 8 are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this time we would like to 12 display and read to the jury Defendant's Exhibit MY-1218-X1. 13 It is from a weekly call, September 15, 2000. 14 May we display it, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. RUHNKE: It begins with Sheikh Rahman, which I 17 will read. Your Honor, I am sorry. I will read the brief 18 parts attributed to Ramsey Clark in this conversation. 19 So, beginning with Sheikh Rahman. 20 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1218-X1, in 21 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 22 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with the Court's permission 23 we would like to read and display MY-1205-X1, which is a call 24 dated July 21, 2000. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9366 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Let me check the participants of this 2 call, your Honor, if I can. I will read both Mr. Jabara and 3 Sheikh Rahman, and Mr. Knepper will continue to read 4 Mr. Yousry. 5 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1205-X1, in 6 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 7 MR. RUHNKE: That completes that segment, your Honor. 8 Next we would like to read an excerpt identified as MY-1247-X1, 9 which is a conversation during the weekly calls that took place 10 on December 7 of 2001. I will just check the participants. I 11 will read Mr. Jabara's part. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. RUHNKE: And also Sheikh Rahman's part. 14 If we can have that displayed, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 (Whereupon, MY-1247-X1, in evidence, was displayed and 17 read for the jury) 18 MR. RUHNKE: That's the end of that excerpt. 19 Your Honor, with the Court's permission, we would like 20 to read and display MY-1254-X1, which is a call dated January 21 25, 2002. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. RUHNKE: I will read the part of Jabara and Sheikh 24 Rahman, and Mr. Knepper will read Mr. Yousry. 25 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1254-X1, in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9367 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the final excerpt I would 3 like to read from the 1200 series is identified as 1263-X1, it 4 is a phone call that takes place on March 29, 2002. And I will 5 read the part of Mr. Jabara. Let me see for a minute if the 6 Sheikh is in here at all. I will read the part of both 7 Mr. Jabara and Sheikh Rahman. It begins with Mr. Jabara. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. RUHNKE: We will have that displayed and 10 highlighted. 11 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit MY-1263-X1, in 12 evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 13 MR. RUHNKE: That completes the reading of that 14 excerpt and the reading of the 1200 series, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 BY MR. RUHNKE: 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, in terms of prison calls and the weekly calls, 18 how do these summaries stack up as far as being representative, 19 not representative, of the types of things that went on in the 20 calls? 21 A. They are representative of the protocol that we followed, 22 in general, during those calls. Getting approval before 23 telling the Sheikh things. The lawyers will take out things, 24 add things. All that. 25 So, they are representative of the process. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9368 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Now, we have in evidence the both Arabic and English 2 language versions of your notebooks and we have seen in 3 evidence, so far, examples of things being approved and 4 examples of things being disapproved. If you were to look 5 through your notebooks, would you see more examples of that? 6 A. Yes, I would. 7 Q. How many, if you flipped through those notebooks, of 8 approvals and disapprovals, would you find? 9 A. I can't really give you an estimate but there are hundreds 10 I believe, at least. 11 Q. And regarding your own state of mind, when an attorney said 12 that you could read a certain article or not read a certain 13 article, or that a letter was approved or not approved, as far 14 as it affected your state of mind, what did you believe about 15 the attorneys? 16 A. I believed that the attorney cleared that and that it's all 17 right for me to do it so I did that. 18 Q. Mr. Yousry, I am now going to direct your attention to the 19 May 19, 2000 prison visit, okay? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. May 19. On May 19 and May 20, that year, did you have a 22 chance to travel to Rochester to meet with Sheikh Rahman? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Refresh my recollection, who was the attorney who 25 accompanied you on that trip? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9369 4BM5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 A. The attorney in charge was Ms. Lynne Stewart. 2 Q. During the course of that visit, was the Sheikh asked to 3 dictate a reply to a letter? 4 A. Yes, he was. 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9370 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. And in terms of regular proceeding, not regular proceeding, 3 how usual or unusual was it for the Sheikh to receive a letter 4 then dictate the response? 5 A. It was something that happened several times before. So it 6 was -- to me, it was something very ordinary. 7 Q. Prior to the visit did you have a conversation, did you and 8 Ms. Stewart have a conversation regarding anything she was 9 planning to do in connection with the Sheikh's case? 10 A. Well, she, Ms. Stewart, was concerned that the Sheikh's 11 case was -- 12 MS. BAKER: Objection. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. Did Ms. Stewart -- instead of telling us what you think 15 Ms. Stewart was concerned about, what did she say to you? What 16 was the substance of the conversation? 17 A. She -- 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would ask for an instruction 19 that it's offered only for Mr. Yousry's state of mind. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Fine. 21 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, what Ms. -- 22 the witness' testimony about what Ms. Stewart said is not 23 admitted for the truth of anything asserted but for its effect 24 on the witness' state of mind. 25 Q. In sum and substance, what were you told? What were the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9371 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 thrust of what you were told by Ms. Stewart; not what you think 2 she meant, but what you were told? 3 A. She was concerned about the Sheikh's case, and she 4 wanted to revive the case. And she was thinking of issuing 5 some press statement -- 6 Q. And what -- 7 A. -- involving the Sheikh's case. 8 Q. In terms of the visit, when did that conversation take 9 place; before, during or after the visit? 10 A. On our way there, actually, when I was reading her the 11 letters and stuff like that. 12 Q. And at that time did you have -- the conversation continue 13 regarding what might be any reaction forthcoming from her issue 14 of the press statement? 15 A. Yes. Ms. Stewart was concerned that the restriction of the 16 client might be tightening or -- 17 MS. BAKER: Objection. 18 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, what the objection is and what I'm going to ask 20 you to do is don't tell me what you think Ms. Stewart, what her 21 state of mind was. Just let us know pretty much what the words 22 were that she -- how she explained it to you, OK. So let me 23 ask the question again. 24 As it regards your own state of mind and point of 25 view, were there further discussions regarding what might be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9372 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 the aftermath of holding a press conference? 2 A. Yes, there were. 3 Q. And what did Ms. Stewart, especially if you can summarize 4 her words, tell you about what any concerns were you might or 5 might not have had? 6 A. That the government might issue a further restriction on 7 the Sheikh; that the government might cut Ms. Stewart off, you 8 know, the Sheikh's case for a few weeks or so. 9 Q. Was a particular word used that described what might 10 happen? 11 A. Yeah, some trouble. 12 Q. And did you have a reaction in that conversation to what 13 Ms. Stewart was telling you? 14 A. Yes, I did actually. I didn't see any reason why the 15 government should react in any way, since Mr. Clark and 16 Mr. Jabara had spoken to the press several times before and 17 issued several releases before. And nobody said anything. So 18 it was just -- you know, to me it was just like -- that 19 shouldn't happen. 20 Q. During that visit, both tape-recorded and videotaped, did 21 you actually use -- to the best of your recollection, did you 22 actually use the word trouble? 23 A. I don't believe I did. I heard the tape several times. I 24 started to say something like in tr-- and then I stopped. So 25 there was no clear word to me. I heard the tape several times. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9373 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 I think what I was saying was interrupted, but I didn't finish 2 that word. 3 Q. And on a transcript, when you cannot get a clear word as an 4 interpreter, what would you do? 5 A. I put UI down, unintelligible. 6 Q. I'll fast-forward this a bit. You testified about writing 7 down the Sheikh's response to this letter. What, if anything, 8 was the next step in the process when the Sheikh would dictate 9 a letter to you? 10 A. Well, the next step usually is that I translate whatever 11 the Sheikh dictated to me to the lawyer in charge. And the 12 lawyer in charge then would have a meeting with Mr. Sattar, if 13 you want to release something to the family, if you want to 14 release something to the lawyers in Egypt. So they had their 15 own meetings afterwards. I did not participate in this 16 process. 17 Q. In terms of the process leading maybe to an approval or 18 disapproval by the attorneys, what role did you have to play in 19 that process? 20 A. I just translated what I was dictated, and that's about it. 21 That's it. 22 Q. Do you recall a discussion during Ms. Stewart's 23 cross-examination about a discussion about political parties 24 that you had with Sheikh Rahman? 25 A. Yes, I do. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9374 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And what was the background of that discussion, as you 2 recall it? 3 A. I believe Ms. Stewart was asked about a visit that took 4 place on March of 1999, a couple of questions that I asked 5 Ms. Stewart's permission to ask the Sheikh for my dissertation. 6 And Ms. Stewart said that there was an ongoing discussion about 7 that particular issue. 8 And I believe a couple of months earlier there were a 9 couple of letters from Egypt to Mr. Clark, because Mr. Clark 10 was going to visit Egypt. And the lawyers in Egypt wanted 11 Mr. Clark to get the Sheikh's reply to these questions before 12 Mr. Clark travels to Egypt. However, those letters came in 13 when Mr. Clark was in Egypt already. So the questions were 14 asked, we had answers dictated. Mr. Jabara asked me when I go 15 on that trip with Ms. Stewart, just to get more clear answers, 16 because he needed to communicate that to the lawyers in Egypt. 17 Q. And what happened? 18 A. So basically that it had a double aim to it. I used it for 19 my own dissertation and I as well gave Mr. Jabara what he was 20 looking for. 21 Q. And once you passed that information on to the attorneys, 22 who -- 23 MS. BAKER: Objection. Assumes a fact not in 24 evidence. 25 MR. RUHNKE: You're right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9375 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. When you got back to this particular visit, was it March of 2 1999? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Was there any further discussion about the issue of 5 political parties with anyone? 6 A. Yes, there was. We usually have a meeting, and the lawyer 7 who is going to be in charge of the particular phone calls 8 usually is not the lawyer that accompanied me on the trip, 9 because they take like a day or two off, something like that. 10 So I have to update them of what happened and what took place. 11 And that lawyer was Mr. Jabara. So I just, you know, gave him 12 all the information. And I don't know what Mr. Jabara did with 13 that. 14 Q. Are you familiar in the indictment with a particular 15 allegation concerning the visit that took place with Sheikh 16 Rahman on February 18 and 19 of 2000, a particular allegation? 17 A. Yes, I am. 18 Q. And what is your understanding of that particular 19 allegation? 20 A. The allegation I believe the word that they use, failed to 21 attempt to deliver a message. 22 Q. And what is your understanding of that allegation made? 23 A. The allegation basically said that there was a message to 24 be delivered to the Sheikh, and it was not delivered because 25 the lawyer speaks Arabic, or something of this nature. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9376 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And I wanted to discuss that particular allegation for a 2 bit and what occurred during that visit. 3 Initially I'd like to display call transcript 4 MY1730X1, if I can. 5 THE COURT: All right. In evidence? 6 MR. RUHNKE: I'm going to offer -- I'm sorry. It has 7 not been objected to by the government. I would like to offer 8 MY1730X1. 9 THE COURT: Is this -- 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, no objection, subject to the 11 same limiting instruction as earlier. It's a call on 12 Mr. Yousry's phone. 13 THE COURT: OK. Is this a transcript of Arabic? 14 MR. RUHNKE: It's a transcript from Arabic and 15 translated into English, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. All right. 17 Ladies and gentlemen, MY1730X is received in evidence. 18 And it's subject to the same limiting instruction that I've 19 given you with respect to the series of transcripts in the 1700 20 series, MY1701 through MY1730. 21 Mr. Yousry's statements are not admitted for their 22 truth but only as evidence of his knowledge, intent or state of 23 mind. And statements by any others are not admitted for their 24 truth, but only for their effect, if any, on Mr. Yousry's 25 knowledge, intent or state of mind. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9377 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, for the record, I believe the 2 exhibit is MY1730X1. 3 MR. RUHNKE: That's what I thought I said, your Honor. 4 If I said something different, I apologize. 5 THE COURT: MY1730X1. 6 (Defendant's Exhibit MY1730X1 received in evidence) 7 MR. RUHNKE: If I could have Mr. -- it's a very brief 8 call. If I could have Mr. Knepper and Mr. Fanjou come forward 9 to read the parts. It's a call between Mr. Yousry and Ahmed 10 Abdel Sattar. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. RUHNKE: The date of the call is December 9, 1999, 13 at 7:58 in the evening. And I'll just ask one background 14 question of Mr. Yousry. 15 BY MR. RUHNKE: 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, in or about December of 1999, were there 17 discussions underway about setting up a visit with Sheikh 18 Rahman? 19 A. Yes, there were. 20 MR. RUHNKE: OK. If we could just read this brief 21 excerpt, your Honor, then I'll ask further questions. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 (At this point, Exhibit MY1730X1, in evidence, was 24 displayed and read to the jury) 25 MR. RUHNKE: That's the end of that excerpt. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9378 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, why did you prefer -- I'm sorry. 3 In the conversation you make a statement that you 4 prefer to do the visit with Abdeen, Mr. Jabara. What was the 5 reason that you preferred to do it that way? 6 A. Well, there were several reasons actually. First, that 7 it's always easier to go with Mr. Jabara because he speaks 8 Arabic. And I don't have to go back and forth, back and forth 9 or -- so, you know, it's easier to do it when Jabara is there. 10 Second, Ms. Stewart was busy. She wasn't able to give 11 us an exact time when she want to go and stuff. 12 And third, I had a few questions for my dissertation. 13 And, you know, my own selfish reason. I just wanted to go as 14 fast as possible, and I thought that this would be my last 15 visit, actually, to the Sheikh. 16 Q. Why -- what made you think this would be your last visit? 17 What was your thinking that this would be your last visit with 18 the Sheikh? 19 A. I discussed that with Mr. Clark earlier. It was becoming a 20 burden on me; one translator, one interpreter, working with 21 four lawyers and trying to accommodate four lawyers' schedules. 22 I had my own work and I had my own dissertation to finish. So 23 I wanted to cut down at least. I informed Mr. Clark of that 24 and, you know, those were my reasons. 25 Q. And based on your knowledge now through discovery you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9379 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 received following your arrest on April 9, 2002, are you aware 2 whether or not the February 18 portion of the visit was 3 recorded or not recorded? 4 A. No, it was not recorded. 5 Q. And what was the first date that any prison visit was 6 actually recorded? 7 A. February 19, 2000. 8 Q. This particular visit lasted how many days? 9 A. Two days. 10 Q. And in your notebook did you make notes about what occurred 11 during the February 18 part? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with the Court's permission, 14 I would like to have displayed from the notebook, which is in 15 evidence, page 734. I'll tell you which lines. It's from 16 Defense Exhibit MY1004CT. 17 And if we could just display, beginning the Arabic 18 page at page 734. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Could we display that. 21 For some reason we're getting a blue screen. Your 22 Honor, could we just switch to the Elmo at this point. I'll 23 turn on the Elmo and I think we can move along. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 - - - - - SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9380 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm going to display, I hope, page 734 of your 3 notebook. I'll zoom out. 4 In any event, can you see on your monitor page 734 of 5 your notebook? Do you see it? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. And can you tell us, I'm looking in the upper right-hand 8 corner of 734, what the date is that that conversation took 9 place? 10 A. It's Tuesday, February 1, 2000. 11 Q. OK. And this is prior to your visit on February 18, 2000, 12 correct? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. And what is the subject matter of what is being requested 15 of you? If I could display 734, I'll display the English -- 16 I'm sorry. 17 What is being asked of you, or what is the topic on 18 this particular set of subjects? 19 A. Well, presently the Sheikh client was told that his 20 daughter in Egypt, someone had proposed to his daughter in 21 Egypt and they wanted his opinion. 22 Q. And did the subject of the daughter's opinions -- 23 daughter's marriage and other topics come up during the visit 24 on February 19 -- I'm sorry, February 18, 2000? 25 A. Yes, it did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9381 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And what was what came up during the February 19 -- 2 February 18 visit? 3 A. Well, the person who wanted to marry the Sheikh's daughter 4 basically was approved by the Sheikh's daughter, but his son, 5 his older son in Egypt, did not approve of that marriage. And 6 the Sheikh said if she likes him, she can marry him, basically 7 is what he said. 8 Q. Now I'm going to direct your attention to page 752 of your 9 notebook and display the Arabic part and then the English part 10 of 752. 11 What is on page 752 of the notebook? 12 A. That appears to be parts of the notes that I took during 13 that visit. 14 Q. And is there reference in there at all to the subject 15 matter that you're talking about? 16 A. There is some reference to the daughter, the top three 17 lines. 18 Q. Was there discussions during that visit about the status of 19 any of the mosques or other houses of worship that -- 20 A. Yes, there was. 21 Q. And what were the discussions during the visit of that? 22 A. Well, on February 18, I believe, the Sheikh asked Jabara if 23 he can inquire about what's going on in certain mosques that he 24 used to preach in in New Jersey and in New York. And 25 Mr. Jabara approved of that request and promised that he would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9382 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 try to find out what happened and inform the Sheikh the next 2 day. 3 Q. And looking at the screen, still looking at the Arabic 4 side, just refresh my recollection: Who was the attorney that 5 actually accompanied you on the February 19, February 20, 2000, 6 visit? 7 A. Mr. Abdeen Jabara. 8 Q. And does your notebook, at least the page that we're 9 looking at, reflect approvals for certain things by Mr. Jabara? 10 A. Yes, it does. 11 Q. Is that in the upper left-hand corner of what we're looking 12 at on the screen? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. And after the visit that took place on February 18, 2000, 15 where did you and Mr. Jabara go that evening? 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Could you -- a moment ago your 17 questioning was phrased in terms of the February 19th and 18 February 20th visit. 19 MR. RUHNKE: I'm sorry. It should be February 18 and 20 19. If I said 19 and 20, that was in error. 21 Q. Let's go back a little bit then. How long did this visit 22 last, this particular visit to Rochester? 23 A. Two days. 24 Q. And what two days were those? 25 A. The 18th and the 19th of February, 2000. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9383 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. After the conclusion of the February 18 visit, which was 2 not recorded, where did you and Mr. Jabara go that evening? 3 A. After we had dinner, I believe we went to Mr. Jabara's room 4 in the hotel, where Mr. Jabara called Mr. Ahmed Abdel Sattar in 5 order to relay to him the Sheikh's request. 6 Q. And who approved or relayed to Mr. Sattar what the Sheikh 7 wanted to -- the answers to the Sheikh's questions? 8 A. Actually, it was Mr. Jabara on the phone. It wasn't I at 9 the time. 10 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, I'd like to read a 11 stipulation, if I may. It's marked Defendant's 12 Exhibit MY Stip 7. And if I could display it on the screen as 13 well. 14 THE COURT: All right. MY Stip 7 received in 15 evidence. 16 (Defendant's Exhibit MY Stip 7 received in evidence) 17 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 18 The parties hereby stipulate and agree to the 19 following: 20 If called as a witnesses at trial, a qualified expert 21 Arabic-to-English translators would testify that, in his 22 opinion, the English translations of the conversations set 23 forth in Defendant's Exhibits MY2000T through 2003T are true 24 and accurate translations from Arabic into English of the 25 underlying Arabic conversations. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9384 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Your Honor, as it turns out, we're only offering 2001, 2 2002 and 2003T. 3 BY MR. RUHNKE: 4 Q. But have you, Mr. Yousry, looked at transcripts of 5 conversations that occurred that evening from the hotel? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And do those accurately set forth what occurred during your 8 telephone conversations on the evening of February 18, 2000? 9 A. Yes, they do. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we'd like to display for the 11 jury MY Exhibit 2001T. 2001T. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I speak with Mr. Ruhnke 13 for a minute. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. RUHNKE: There's another stipulation, your Honor, 16 that I'd like to read and publish to the jury. It's 17 Defendant's Exhibit MY Stip 8. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. RUHNKE: If I could display it and just read it. 20 THE COURT: MY Stip 8 received in evidence. 21 (Defendant's Exhibit MY Stip 8 received in evidence) 22 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. The parties hereby 23 stipulate and agree that, if called as a witness, Special Agent 24 Steven Sorrells of the FBI would testify as follows: 25 He prepared a CD which he marked with his initials SES SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9385 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 and the date 11/19/04 on which is now -- 2 THE COURT: And -- 3 MR. RUHNKE: And which is now marked as Defense 4 Exhibit MY5. The CD contains four audio files that he 5 retrieved from a magneto-optical disk containing audio files 6 that were recorded by the FBI using the Lockheed Martin system 7 and then converted to .voc files. The four audio files contain 8 true and accurate recordings of the calls reflected in the 9 transcripts marked MY2000T through MY2003T. 10 Two, he retrieved and copied the audio files to the CD 11 using the same procedure and equipment that Scott Kerns 12 described in his testimony. 13 And it's signed by all the parties and dated 14 November 22, today's date, 2004. 15 And with that, your Honor, I'd like permission to 16 display, to put on the screen defense Exhibit MY2001T. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't believe that the 18 transcripts have been offered and admitted. 19 MR. RUHNKE: That's right. I'd like to offer the 20 transcripts as pursuant to a stipulated here. I'd like to 21 offer the transcripts. 22 MS. BAKER: No objection, subject to the same limiting 23 instruction as other recorded calls. 24 THE COURT: All right. But -- OK, the transcript is 25 an Arabic into English? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9386 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: MY2001 -- and by the way, are you offering 3 the underlying -- 4 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor, I will be offering the 5 underlying audio -- no, we're not offering the underlying audio 6 file. The stipulation tells us we're OK, so we're not offering 7 the underlying audio file. The audio files already exist in 8 evidence. 9 MS. BAKER: The audio files are not already in 10 evidence. 11 MR. RUHNKE: At an appropriate time we're working this 12 out, if that's all right with your Honor. 13 THE COURT: All right. MY2001T is received in 14 evidence. 15 (Defendant's Exhibit MY2001T received in evidence) 16 THE COURT: And, ladies and gentlemen, the transcript 17 is not admitted for the truth of any of the contents of the 18 transcript. Mr. Yousry's statements are admitted only as 19 evidence of his knowledge, intent or state of mind and the 20 statements by others are admitted only for their effect, if 21 any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 22 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at the same time, just to -- 23 because they're very brief conversations, we'd also offer 24 MY2002T, MY2003T, which are all subject to the exact same 25 limiting instruction your Honor just gave. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9387 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. No objection, MY2002T, MY2003T 2 received in evidence. 3 (Defendant's Exhibit MY2002T, MY2003T received in 4 evidence) 5 THE COURT: And they're subject to the same limiting 6 instruction I just gave you, ladies and gentlemen. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Now, if I could ask Mr. Fanjou and 8 Mr. Knepper to step forward and just read the appropriate 9 parts. If we could display it on the screen. 10 If I could just have a second, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. RUHNKE: I'll play the part of the English 13 language hotel operator. I'll ask Mr. Fanjou to read the part 14 of Mr. Sattar, and then Mr. Knepper to read the part of 15 Mr. Yousry. And they're the only participants in this 16 particular conversation, which is MY2001T. 17 (At this point, Exhibit MY2001t, in evidence, was 18 displayed and read to the jury) 19 MR. RUHNKE: Abrupt end to the call. 20 We now display the next transcript in the series, 21 2002T. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 (At this point, Exhibit 2002T, in evidence, was 24 displayed and read to the jury) 25 MR. RUHNKE: Abrupt end to call. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9388 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 And now if we could display and read 2003T, your 2 Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 (At this point, Exhibit 2003T, in evidence, was 5 displayed and read to the jury) 6 MR. RUHNKE: That completes that call. 7 BY MR. RUHNKE: 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, a couple of questions about the segment that we 9 just heard. 10 First of all, was Mr. Jabara there through the whole 11 conversation you were having with Mr. Sattar? 12 A. No, he was not. 13 Q. And the kinds of information you were conveying to 14 Mr. Sattar, where did that information come from? 15 A. Well, the information was an aid to Mr. Jabara through the 16 meeting earlier that day in the morning. The Sheikh wanted 17 some -- you know, to know some information about the mosques 18 and stuff. And then he asked Mr. Jabara if he can do that, and 19 Mr. Jabara approved that it was. 20 Q. And was Mr. Jabara in the room for part of the time? 21 A. You mean at the hotel room? 22 Q. In the room where this last phone call was taking place. 23 A. Yes, he was. 24 Q. And at some point obviously on the tape you can hear him 25 leaving? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9389 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yeah, he left, too. 2 Q. Did you change the nature of your conversation at all after 3 Mr. Jabara left? 4 A. No, absolutely not. I was told by Mr. Jabara to ask Ahmed, 5 Mr. Sattar, certain things. I did. I got the answers for him 6 and that was it. 7 Q. And what was the plan to do with those answers? 8 A. In the morning before we went to see the client, Sheikh 9 Omar Abdel Rahman, I gave the answers to Mr. Abdeen Jabara. 10 And he approved that that stuff should be told to the Sheikh. 11 Q. In the conversation you've just told -- I'm sorry, 12 conversation we've just listed to -- sorry, conversation that 13 was just read to us, you make reference to the greetings. What 14 are you talking about? 15 A. To Ahmed? 16 Q. The greetings. 17 A. Oh, greetings, right. Those were normal parts of -- 18 there's cultural differences. Greetings are very important in 19 the Arab culture. A lot of people send their regards to the 20 Sheikh. Some people send them to Ahmed. Ahmed Abdel Sattar 21 refers that to the lawyers. They approve of them, and I tell 22 the Sheikh about it. So it was done with all the lawyers. 23 Q. There's also in the conversation a reference to certain 24 people who are -- I believe the word is salifas, S-A-L- -- 25 A. Salifas. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9390 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 Q. What is that? 2 A. Well, these are believed to be -- they believe themselves 3 to be the true guardian of the Muslim tradition, those who 4 follow the early tradition of the prophet. 5 Q. And there's also a reference in that last conversation 6 where you say to Mr. Sattar or ask Mr. Sattar, why are you 7 speaking classical Arabic to me, Ahmed? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. What is that a reference to? 10 A. Mr. Sattar was talking to me for I believe the last year, 11 for sentences he was relaying to me, they were in classical 12 Arabic; not an everyday language that we speak. So I just 13 thought it was strange. 14 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, I'm going to move on to 15 another topic right now. And this would be a very convenient 16 time to break. 17 THE COURT: I wonder if we could at least start the 18 topic until Mr. Fletcher just tells me that the lunch has come. 19 MR. RUHNKE: OK. Could we have displayed on the 20 screen PS363A in evidence. 21 Q. And, Mr. Yousry, you've seen this exhibit before. Is this 22 the -- 23 THE COURT: I'm -- it's Government Exhibit 363A. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: OK. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9391 4BMESAT3 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: It originally introduced as a government 2 exhibit. We marked a copy as a demonstrative exhibit at the 3 time through the table there -- 4 THE COURT: The reason I raise it, both the reporter 5 and I heard PS rather than Government Exhibit 363A. 6 MR. RUHNKE: It's Government Exhibit 363A. 7 BY MR. RUHNKE: 8 Q. In any event, we've seen this exhibit before, Mr. Yousry. 9 This shows what? 10 A. This shows the conference school where the meetings -- 11 meetings that took place on February 18, February 19, during 12 the visit to Rochester Minnesota. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if the lunch is -- 14 THE COURT: Yes. Why don't we break now until 2:00. 15 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 16 instructions. Please, don't talk about the case at all, and 17 always remember to keep an open mind until you've heard all of 18 the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, you've gone to 19 the jury room to begin your deliberations. 20 Have a good lunch. I look forward to seeing you after 21 lunch. 22 (Page 9392 sealed by order of the Court) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9393 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 2:10 p.m. 3 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 4 Mr. Belfiore is standing in for Mr. Fletcher this 5 afternoon. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Should I have Mr. Yousry take the stand, 7 your Honor? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Let's bring in the jury, please. 10 (Witness resumes the stand) 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9394 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 4 THE COURT: It's good to see you. 5 All right, Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 6 Mr. Belfiore. 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 8 are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 11 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, over the lunch hour did I ask you to locate, in 13 the notebooks that are in evidence, those pages that relate to 14 the February 18 and February 19, 2000 prison visit? 15 A. Yes, you did. 16 Q. And were you able to locate those entries? 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. Beginning with the February 18 prison visit, what pages in 19 your notebook corresponds with what took place on February 18, 20 2000? 21 A. Page 746. 22 Q. And what is the ending of page February 18, 2000? 23 A. For the same day it's page 753. 24 Q. And with regard to -- 25 MS. BAKER: May I ask which exhibit number, please? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9395 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: It is Exhibit 1004-CT. 2 Q. With regard to February 19, which pages in Exhibit 1004-CT 3 correspond with what took place on February 19, 2000? 4 A. It starts at page 754. 5 Q. And where does it end? 6 A. It ends on -- it ends on page 767. 7 Q. Now, sir, before we return to the visit room where we were 8 when we broke for lunch; on February 18 had there been 9 discussion at all, one way or another, about a press conference 10 or contacting press? 11 A. Yes, there was. 12 Q. And who participated in that discussion? What was the 13 nature of that discussion? 14 A. The participants were Mr. Jabara, myself as an interpreter, 15 and the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 16 Q. And in sum and substance, did Sheikh Rahman ask Mr. Jabara 17 to do something? 18 A. Well yes, he did. 19 Q. What did he ask Mr. Jabara to do? 20 A. He wanted to have Mr. Jabara have a press conference 21 regarding the Sheikh's view on the peace initiative. 22 Q. And what was Mr. Jabara's reply to that, as you recall? 23 A. Mr. Jabara said he is not going to do it because he was 24 concerned, he is the only lawyer that spoke Arabic and he -- 25 Mr. Jabara agreed with Mr. Clark that he wouldn't do that since SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9396 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 I was leaving and he needed somebody to do that that would 2 speak Arabic, and that's what he informed the Sheikh. 3 Q. When you said he wasn't going to do that because he needed 4 someone who spoke Arabic, was there any discussion of what 5 could happen if someone did hold a press conference? 6 MS. BAKER: Objection, your Honor. I ask for a 7 limiting instruction. 8 MR. RUHNKE: I agree, it is for a limited purpose, 9 your Honor. Yes. 10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, what someone said -- 11 the witness' testimony about what someone said to him is not 12 received for the truth of the matters asserted but rather for 13 the effect, if any, on the witness' state of mind. 14 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 15 Q. And what discussion was there about what could occur if 16 Mr. Jabara were to do what the Sheikh wanted? 17 A. Mr. Jabara was concerned that he might be cut off from 18 speaking to the Sheikh or further limitation would be put on 19 Mr. Jabara's access to the client. 20 Q. Now, going to your notebooks contained within Exhibit 21 1004-CT, I'm going to display page 746. Did you say that was 22 the starting page of February 19? 23 A. February 18; yes, it was. 24 MR. RUHNKE: And with the Court's permission, your 25 Honor, I would like to display that page, which is in evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9397 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. RUHNKE: If you put it on upside down it doesn't 3 work very well. 4 Q. Can you see what's in front of you as page 746 of your 5 notebook? 6 A. I see that, yes. 7 Q. Across the middle in the, with the double underlining on 8 that page, what is the Arabic that's written there? 9 A. Well, the top line says personal visit, Rochester, 10 Minnesota. The line under that says Friday, February 18, 2000. 11 Q. And that reflects the beginning of that meeting with Sheikh 12 Rahman? 13 A. Yes, it does. 14 Q. Now, you just made reference to the conversation about 15 holding a press conference, and I'm going to direct your 16 attention to page 752 of the notebook, is that still part of 17 the notebook from February 18, 2000? 18 A. Yes, it is. 19 Q. And I am first going to show you the Arabic side and then I 20 will show you, with the Court's permission, the English side. 21 May I display the Arabic side, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. RUHNKE: It is in evidence. Your Honor, may I 24 display the Arabic side? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9398 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: I'm sorry. 2 Q. And across the top of that do you see English writing? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. What does that say? 5 A. Well, if you want me to read it, This is approved by 6 Mr. Jabara, on the top right corner. And there is also, 7 Approved by Mr. Jabara, on the left top side of that particular 8 page. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Okay. 10 A. And there are a few lines in English, if you would like me 11 to read them, my own hand writing. 12 Q. It is not necessary to read them, they're in your hand 13 writing. 14 Generally speaking, what is the particular topic under 15 discussion where you see the English language displayed? 16 A. It was regarding the Sheikh's daughter's purported marriage 17 proposal. 18 Q. Was that the same daughter and the same marriage proposal 19 that we heard about in the phone call? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, I'm going to display the English side of that call, if 22 I may, of that notebook page and first of all. 23 Can we see the top of the notebook page? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Is that the same notebook page we were just discussing? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9399 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. As you look through the English language, do you see that 3 it's the reference to the marriage, the news about the mosques, 4 the Sheikh's dissertation; were these things that were 5 discussed on February 18? 6 A. Yes, they were. 7 Q. Now, I'm going to go to the bottom of notebook page 752 and 8 do you see on the bottom, I will try to zoom in a little bit -- 9 do you see on the bottom the translation, there is a reference 10 to, across the top about a book entitled, Al-Gama'a 11 al-Islamiyya? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. There is English language about forming a committee and 14 discussion about Usama, you fooled the people. You tell people 15 that your chickens are Islamically permitted but they are not. 16 That's the Islamic chicken guy from Brooklyn? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. At the bottom of the page, what is the English there? 19 Would you read that? 20 A. It says no, Sheikh, I cannot do all of this -- arrow 21 pointing up -- perform -- because Ramsey and I agreed). 22 Q. And what is that a reference to? 23 A. Well, that was Mr. Jabara informing the Sheikh that he had 24 an agreement with Mr. Ramsey Clark before he came to visit the 25 Sheikh that Mr. Jabara is not going to hold any press SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9400 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 conferences because he didn't want to be, his access with the 2 client to be restricted since the they knew I was trying to -- 3 I withdrew myself. 4 Q. Now on, that was the February 19th visit, if we can have 5 the visiting room picture displayed, photograph of the visiting 6 room. 7 THE COURT: Maybe while you are taking an opportunity 8 to put that up it is convenient for us to take a stretch break. 9 Q. Now this, as we established over and over again, is the 10 room where the interviews with Sheikh Rahman took place on 11 February 18 and February 19, 2000? 12 A. Yes, that's the room. Yes. 13 Q. When you visited Sheikh Rahman in May 19 and 20, 2000, 14 where does that visit take place? 15 A. The same room. 16 THE COURT: To the extent it is not clear, it is 17 Government Exhibit 363A that's being projected. 18 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. 19 Q. And the final prison visit in July 2001, where did that 20 take place? 21 A. I believe it took place in the same room. 22 Q. Now, taking your attention now to February 19, the next 23 day, this is the first time when a prison visit has been 24 recorded; at some point did Sheikh Rahman complain to you about 25 Mr. Jabara in any way? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9401 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. I'm not sure if there was a complaint but he said I do not 2 want to dictate in the presence of Mr. Abdeen. 3 MR. RUHNKE: At this point, your Honor, I would like 4 to read an oral stipulation which we have been revising a 5 little bit. We will get it to the Court in the final form but 6 here is the oral stipulation. 7 The parties hereby stipulate and agree to the 8 following: 9 1. If called as a witness, a paralegal employed to 10 work on this case, by counsel to Mohammed Yousry, would testify 11 that he took the original recordings in this case as introduced 12 in evidence as Government Exhibit 1700-C, and identified from 13 that DVD two segments corresponding to two particular sections 14 of Government Exhibit 1700-X and 1701X, which are the excerpts 15 of the transcripts of the prison visit of February 19, 2000. 16 The paralegal identified in paragraph 1 would testify 17 further that he took the original DVD of the recordings to a 18 commercial service and requested that an exact copy be made of 19 the segments described above such that the segments would 20 conform to the contents of the transcript of the combined 21 Arabic and English language recording. 22 3. The paralegal identified in paragraph 1 would 23 testify further that he listened to the excerpted recordings 24 with the assistance of a native speaker of the Arabic language 25 and the excerpted recordings accurately reflected what was on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9402 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 the original DVD, and that the excerpted recordings accurately 2 matched the transcript specified in paragraph 1 of this 3 stipulation. 4 The excerpted recordings are marked as defense 5 Exhibit -- I'm sorry, are marked as Exhibits GX-1700-MYA and GX 6 1701-MYA. 7 And your Honor, I have -- I would like to display the 8 exhibits on the witness stand and offer -- 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I speak with Mr. Ruhnke 10 for a minute? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 (Counsel conferring) 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we would amend that oral 14 stipulation to say that the paralegal began with two DVDs one 15 marked 1700C and one marked 1701-C, from which were produced 16 Defendant's Exhibit GX-1700-MYA and defense Exhibit 17 GX-1701-MYA, which are contained on a single CD. 18 And with the Court' permission, I would display the 19 CDs on the Elmo. 20 THE COURT: Before you do that, are you offering 21 Defendant's Exhibit Government Exhibit MY-1700-MYA and 22 1701-MYA? 23 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, I am, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: No objections -- 25 MS. BAKER: Your Honor -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9403 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: No? 2 MS. BAKER: No objection for demonstrative purposes. 3 These are excerpts of other exhibits that are already in 4 evidence. 5 MR. RUHNKE: That's correct, your Honor. 6 So, if I could just display these and hand them back 7 to Mr. Fanjul. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 So, solely for demonstrative purposes, Defendant's 10 Exhibit GX-1700 -- Defendant's Exhibit GX-1700-MYA and 11 Defendant's Exhibit GX-1701-MYA are admitted, solely as 12 demonstrative exhibits. 13 (Defendant's Exhibits GX-1700-MYA and GX-1701-MYA 14 received in evidence) 15 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. 16 Q. Now, what occurred leading up to the remark that you just 17 attributed to Sheikh Rahman that he could not dictate in front 18 of Mr. Abdeen? Where was Mr. Jabara when this occurred? 19 A. At that point Mr. Jabara, I believe, had to leave to get 20 coffee and he was out of the room. 21 Q. And while he was out of the room, had anybody asked you to 22 step out of the room or not leave you alone with the Sheikh? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you remain in the interview room -- that we have 25 seen -- with Sheikh Rahman? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9404 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 MR. RUHNKE: And, your Honor, at this point we would 3 like to play those excerpts starting with the -- the first 4 excerpt only, Government Exhibit 1700-MYA, and have the 5 transcript displayed on the screen. The transcript is in, it 6 is an English language translation from the Arabic, some of it 7 is in English but most of it is in Arabic, and we are going to 8 ask that the jury put on its headsets and follow along with the 9 audio. 10 Mr. Yousry will indicate when it is time to change the 11 page, say simply "next", and we will display the next page. 12 Just a conversation in Arabic. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. RUHNKE: So we are going to have 1700-MYX 15 displayed, with the Court's permission. 16 THE COURT: MYA. 17 MR. RUHNKE: MYA, it is the transcript itself that is 18 being displayed. 19 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, put your headphones 20 on. 21 MR. RUHNKE: If we can just have the -- look at the 22 top part of the page and just have the CD begin to run when we 23 get to the bottom of the page. Mr. Yousry will simply say next 24 and we will know it is time to move to the next page. If we 25 can start the audio? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9405 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit GX 1700-MYA was 2 displayed and played for the jury) 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, we have a headphone 4 problem. 5 THE COURT: Stop and replace the headphones, please, 6 of those two jurors. Thank you. 7 Start at the top. 8 (Defendant's Exhibit GX 1700-MYA resumed) 9 MR. RUHNKE: Can we stop the audio at this point? 10 THE COURT: Stop, stop. 11 MR. RUHNKE: We will stop the audio at this point. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, during this period of time that we have just 15 heard this audio, had Mr. Jabara gone somewhere? 16 A. Yes, he did. 17 Q. Where had he told you he was going to go? 18 A. He was going to get some coffee. 19 MR. RUHNKE: Can we now have up again 366A, Government 20 Exhibit 366A, in evidence, please? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 23 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, looking again at this exhibit, this is 24 366A; in order to go get coffee, tell us again where Mr. Jabara 25 would have had to have gone on that tape? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9406 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Well, my understanding, I believe Mr. Jabara has to open 2 the door first, go out, make a right, go through a double door, 3 then make another left, go straight all the way to the end of 4 the cafeteria. 5 Q. And based on -- 6 MS. BAKER: Objection. Without foundation I would 7 move to strike that answer. 8 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't hear the objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: No foundation. Sustained, stricken. 10 MR. RUHNKE: I think there was foundation but I will 11 re-establish it, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, have you, yourself, ever been to the area in 15 that prison where they had the coffee and vending machines? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. How do you go there from, being guided by 366A, based on 18 your knowledge? 19 A. You have to leave the room, go out the door, get out, make 20 a right, go through a double door, and you make a left and 21 there are, I believe, three steps, take them up, and then you 22 walk straight to the end of the cafeteria. There are some 23 machines there. 24 Q. Once you made whatever purchases you were going to make at 25 the machine, how did you get back? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9407 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. You just reverse it. You just turn around, go straight, go 2 down the steps, I believe you make a right, go back through the 3 double door, go straight, and make a left into the room. 4 Q. In the prison setting, based on your own experience at 5 Rochester, were you permitted simply to wander around on your 6 own or how did that have to happen? 7 A. No. You were always escorted with someone. 8 Q. Now, on the audio file we have just heard, have you timed 9 how long it is from the time Mr. Jabara says he is leaving for 10 coffee and the time that he actually returns, or he actually 11 says, "Okay," on the tape? 12 A. Yes, I believe I did. 13 Q. And approximately how long an interval is that? 14 A. About eight minutes. 15 Q. And during those eight minutes when Mr. Jabara was not in 16 the room, what did you and the Sheikh -- what did you do with 17 the Sheikh? 18 A. I continued to do whatever was approved by Mr. Jabara at 19 that point, which was continue to read the newspapers. 20 Q. Did you pass a message to the Sheikh? 21 A. I had no message to pass. 22 Q. Did you take a message out from the Sheikh? 23 A. I was not there to do anything other than my job. There 24 were no messages, no agenda, other than doing my job. 25 Q. Now, Mr. Rahman, in this segment that we have just seen SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9408 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 displayed, it makes reference to the fact that he does not want 2 to dictate in front of Mr. Jabara, correct? 3 A. Yes, that's correct. 4 Q. And as somebody who worked with the attorneys, what did you 5 believe it was your obligation to do having received that piece 6 of information from the Sheikh? 7 A. I had to tell the lawyer in charge of that particular visit 8 or call what went on, while they were not in the room. 9 Q. And was there a time in this visit, on February 19, 2000, 10 later after Sheikh Rahman said to you he can't dictate in front 11 of Abdeen, that the Sheikh left the room? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this point we would like 14 to play the second audio excerpt and display the second 15 transcript for, which is Government Exhibit -- I will look at 16 whatever the exhibit is -- defendant's Exhibit GX 1701-MYX. If 17 we can display the transcript and play the audio? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. RUHNKE: The jurors can then use their headsets to 20 follow the conversation. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. RUHNKE: A lot of this conversation is in English 23 but there is a little bit that begins with the Arabic. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 Ladies and gentlemen, you can put your headphones on, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9409 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 please. 2 MR. RUHNKE: If we can begin the audio when the jurors 3 are ready. 4 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit GX 1701-MYX, in 5 evidence, was displayed and played for the jury) 6 MR. RUHNKE: We can stop it at this point, and if the 7 jurors will take their headphones off. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 Q. Did you have an understanding at the time, or what was your 10 understanding at the time, if you had one, as to why the Sheikh 11 was uncomfortable about dictating in front of Abdeen? 12 MS. BAKER: Objection. 13 MR. RUHNKE: State of mind, your Honor. 14 MS. BAKER: Lack of personal knowledge. 15 THE COURT: No. 16 MR. RUHNKE: I'm asking for his understanding. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MS. BAKER: Objection, foundation. 19 THE COURT: All right, sustained as to foundation. 20 You can certainly ask if he had an understanding at 21 the time. If so, what that understanding was. 22 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 23 Q. Did you have an understanding at the time, your own 24 understanding, as to why the Sheikh was uncomfortable with 25 dictating in front of Abdeen? What did you think was going on? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9410 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE WITNESS: I did have an understand -- 2 MS. BAKER: Objection. Lack of basis for the 3 understanding. Foundation. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 Q. What did you think was happening? 6 A. Well, I -- I was a little bit confused because the day 7 before Mr. Jabara made it clear to the Sheikh that he is not 8 going to hold a press conference. So I thought at the moment 9 that the Sheikh did not want to dictate an answer to his sister 10 who wanted to sell some house in Egypt. That was my initial 11 understanding. 12 Then when I was telling Mr. Jabara I felt that 13 probably he didn't want to dictate it and he wanted to make 14 clear that I don't want to do it with Jabara, you know, 15 somebody should come and take that. 16 And that's what I told Mr. Jabara. And I told him 17 what I thought and I told him exactly what happened when he was 18 not in the room. 19 Q. Now, we have been through this period of time where 20 Mr. Jabara was out of the room; did Mr. Jabara, during this 21 particular visit on February 19th, 2000, remain alert at all 22 times during the visit? 23 A. No -- 24 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9411 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Did you observe, were you able to observe whether or not 2 Mr. Jabara was always paying attention to what was going on? 3 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 Q. What did you observe about Mr. Jabara's degree of attention 6 to what was going on during the February 19 visit, if anything? 7 A. Mr. Jabara fell asleep more than once. 8 Q. And when Mr. Jabara fell asleep, as you observed, what was 9 your response? What did you do? 10 A. I woke him up. I said wake up, Mr. Jabara. I don't want 11 the guards to think that I'm talking to the Sheikh about 12 something that you are not approving. 13 Q. During the periods that Mr. Jabara was sleeping during 14 these visits, or the time he was out of the room getting 15 coffee, did you ever take advantage of those opportunities 16 alone with the Sheikh to pursue your own agenda? 17 A. I had no personal agenda. I never viewed this to be as an 18 opportunity. I was there to do what I was told to do. I did 19 that. 20 I read the papers, I read him the articles that the 21 lawyer approved. And when the Sheikh told me something that 22 Mr. Jabara needed to hear, I waited for the Sheikh to leave the 23 room, I told Mr. Jabara what happened. 24 Q. In terms of the contact that one or more of attorneys had 25 with the press, did it ever come to your attention, as it bears SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9412 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 on your own knowledge or state of mind, that anything ever 2 happened to any of those attorneys, to Mr. Jabara or to 3 Mr. Clark? 4 A. No. Nothing happened to them. 5 Q. We listened to a conversation the other day, it took place 6 on June 15 of 2000 during which you reference -- the 7 conversation in evidence -- basically for Mr. Sattar to quit 8 working on the Sheikh's case. Do you remember that testimony? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Sattar ever quit working on the 11 Sheikh's case? 12 A. No, he did the not. 13 Q. What did you tell Lynne Stewart about what you told 14 Mr. Sattar about quitting the Sheikh's case? 15 A. Well, I told Lynne that I had a conversation with Ahmed and 16 I told Ahmed to take a couple of weeks off; relax, just stay 17 away for a bit, rejuvenate and come back. 18 Q. Why didn't you tell Lynne that you told him to quit the 19 case all together -- Lynne Stewart? 20 MS. BAKER: Objection. 21 THE COURT: Basis. 22 MS. BAKER: Irrelevant. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 Q. Why didn't you tell Ms. Stewart that you actually told 25 Sattar to quit? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9413 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Well, Mr. Sattar was doing a lot of work for the lawyers, 2 he was making their job, I guess, a lot easier, and I didn't 3 want him to believe that I am the one who is pushing him out, 4 you know. 5 MS. BAKER: Objection. Move to strike. 6 THE COURT: Overruled. 7 Q. With regard to the Special Administrative Measures, were 8 you ever contacted by anyone from the government about signing 9 an affirmation? 10 A. No. Never happened. 11 Q. Did Mr. Fitzgerald or anybody from the government ever come 12 to you and say, Mr. Yousry, do you understand what these mean? 13 Are you following them? 14 A. Nobody did. 15 Q. In terms of your overall role in the defense of the Sheikh, 16 what is your understanding what your role was, as you lived it? 17 MS. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 Q. What is your view of what your role was? 20 A. Well, I was working as an interpreter, translator, a 21 liaison for the lawyers. I did everything I could in good 22 faith. I tried to follow their instruction. And I believe I 23 did that to the best of my ability. 24 Q. Whose job was it to make decisions? 25 MS. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9414 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. Did your function include decision-making as to what ought 3 to be done? 4 MS. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered. 5 THE COURT: I think it's been asked and answered. 6 Q. How many counts are you named in in this indictment, 7 Mr. Yousry? 8 A. Three. 9 Q. In Count One of this indictment, do you know what you are 10 charged with? 11 A. I believe I do, yes. 12 Q. Are you charged with conspiring to cheat the government by 13 joining a conspiracy to defeat the Special Administrative 14 Measures? 15 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. 17 Q. Are you charged with joining a conspiracy to cheat the 18 government by getting around the SAMs? 19 A. That is the allegation, yes. 20 Q. Are you guilty or not guilty? 21 A. I'm not guilty. 22 Q. In Count Four is the charge that you joined a conspiracy to 23 assist the terrorist organization, specifically intending to 24 help murder and kill people and kidnap people in Egypt. Is 25 that what are you charged with in Count Four? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9415 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. That is the allegation, yes. 2 Q. Did you ever join such a conspiracy? 3 A. Never did. 4 Q. Are you guilty or not guilty of Count Four? 5 A. Not guilty. 6 Q. In Count Five, are you charged with actually and knowing 7 and specifically intending to assist a terrorist organization, 8 murder and kidnap people in Egypt? Is that what are you 9 charged with? 10 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading and mischaracterizes 11 the -- 12 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled. 13 Q. Are you guilty or not guilty? 14 A. Not guilty. 15 MR. RUHNKE: Nothing further on direct examination, 16 your Honor. 17 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen I will 18 explain to you each of -- I have explained to you, in general, 19 the charges in the indictment. And an indictment is only an 20 allegation, it is not evidence of anything in the case. And as 21 to the specific charges in the indictment, I will explain them 22 in my final instructions to you. But I reiterate that an 23 indictment is not evidence, it is only the allegations. It's 24 the way in which charges are brought into court. 25 We can take a mid-afternoon break for 10 minutes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9416 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 2 instructions. Please don't talk about this case at all. 3 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all 4 of the evidence, I are instructed you on the law, and you have 5 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness 6 and justice to the parties requires that do you that. 7 All rise, please. 8 (Continued on next page) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9417 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: Please be seated. 6 One comment. There was a question towards the end 7 which actually was asked and answered. I sustained the 8 objection and I said, I think it's been asked and answered. I 9 thought I was being polite and I thought that the question had 10 in fact been asked and answered many times so I -- you can 11 correct me if I'm wrong, but it was asked and answered, was it 12 not? 13 MR. RUHNKE: I think is it probably was. 14 THE COURT: All right. We will take 10 minutes. 15 (Recess) 16 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 17 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 18 Ms. Baker? 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, would you like me to wait at 20 the lectern? 21 THE COURT: Yes. All right. Let's bring in the jury. 22 (Witness resumes the stand) 23 (Continued on next page) 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9418 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 4 Mr. Belfiore? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 6 you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you, sir. 8 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may examine. 9 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 10 CROSS EXAMINATION 11 BY MS. BAKER:: 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, on direct examination you were asked about a 13 radio broadcast that you participated in in 1993. Do you 14 remember that part of your testimony? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. And you testified that you believed that you participated 17 in that radio broadcast maybe on about February 23rd or 24th of 18 1993, is that correct? 19 A. I believe that's correct, yes. 20 Q. Now, at that time you were pursuing a masters degree at New 21 York University, correct? 22 A. I was in the process of finishing my masters, yes. 23 Q. And you eventually received your masters degree in 24 September 1999, correct? 25 A. I don't think it's 1999. Maybe the official transcript SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9419 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 says that, but it's a terminal masters degree. So, if the 2 transcript is '99, that's all right. 3 Q. In any event, you were in the middle of your masters 4 program at the time you were on the radio show, correct? 5 A. I believe so, yes. 6 Q. You were in a program in Near Eastern studies, correct? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. And as part of working on a masters degree, you were 9 working on a thesis entitled, Modernity and the Egyptian 10 Nationalists Discourse, correct? 11 A. Actually, the -- the actual figure that I worked on was 12 Sayyed Qutb. 13 Q. You are saying that he was a person about whom you wrote in 14 your thesis? 15 A. Right. His discourse between modernity and the nationalist 16 movement in Egypt. 17 Q. Right. But was the title of your masters thesis Modernity 18 and the Egyptian Nationalist Discourse? 19 A. Probably. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you a document I had marked for 23 identification as Government Exhibit 720; do you recognize that 24 as a copy of your transcript from New York University? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9420 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 2 720. 3 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 4 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 720 received in 5 evidence. 6 (Government's Exhibit 720 received in evidence) 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, let me direct your attention to the right-hand 8 column of the first page of Government Exhibit 720. About 9 halfway down there is a heading, Spring 1995, and then 10 underneath that there is an item that says "MA thesis:" 11 Do you see that entry? 12 A. Spring 1995? 13 Q. Yes, about four lines underneath that. 14 Your Honor, may I display the page to the jury? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Looking at the area that I am now indicating with my pen in 18 the spring, do you see that where it says, "MA thesis:"? 19 A. Yes, I do see that. 20 Q. And then it said, Islam, Modernity and the Egyptian 21 Nationalist Discourse. Does that refresh your recollection 22 that that is the title of your masters thesis? 23 A. That is probably the working title at the time. I'm not 24 really sure. But it is more or less, yes. I wrote about that 25 topic, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9421 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Well, Mr. Yousry, if you would look in the upper left-hand 2 corner of the first page of Government Exhibit 720 -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- you will see the third line down in the upper left-hand 5 corner says: Print date -- and indicating it with my pen on 6 the screen -- and then it gives a date in 2004, correct? 7 A. Yes, correct. 8 Q. So, this is a transcript much later, issued much later than 9 when you actually finished your thesis? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And it is an official university record of what you did at 12 the university? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And it indicates that that was the title of your thesis? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, at the time -- withdrawn. 17 You had been working on your thesis, or at least 18 research for that masters thesis during the spring 1993 19 academic semester, correct? 20 A. I can't recall that but maybe. Yes. 21 Q. Again, directing your attention to Government Exhibit 720, 22 specifically to a lower portion of the left-hand column of the 23 exhibit -- let's see if I can get this to show on the screen 24 where I have put a little green dot on the screen next to an 25 entry there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9422 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 Do you see that entry? It appears under the heading, 2 "Spring 1993," correct? 3 A. I see that, yes. 4 Q. And the entry where I have now placed the dot says, Masters 5 Thesis Research, correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 I think the problem that I am having is that this is a 8 Ph.D program so the, you obtain a terminal masters degree, it 9 is not something that you graduate and then apply for a Ph.D 10 program. 11 So, I'm not really clear on the date I started the 12 masters thesis or the date that I started the Ph.D thesis, from 13 here. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. That's the problem I'm having. That's all. 16 Q. What I'm asking you right now is the official university 17 record indicates that in the spring 1993 semester -- 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. -- you were doing research for your masters thesis, 20 correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And at some point later than that you finished writing the 23 thesis and you got the degree, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. I understand. You say you immediately continued on, there SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9423 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 was sort of an overlap between the masters degree work and the 2 doctorate degree work, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. But focusing on spring 1993, you were doing research for 5 your masters thesis which related to Islam in Egypt, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, that was the time during that spring 1993 semester 8 when you appeared in a radio broadcast that was presented 9 during your direct examination, correct? 10 A. Probably, yes. 11 Q. Now, at the time that you appeared on that radio broadcast 12 in February 1993, you had not yet started working on Sheikh 13 Omar Abdel Rahman's case, correct? 14 A. No, I had not. 15 Q. So, yes, you agree with me that that's a correct statement? 16 A. I was not working on his case. 17 Q. So, by that point you had not yet met Sheikh Omar Abdel 18 Rahman, correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Nonetheless, you had a fair amount of information about him 21 as reflected by what was said during that radio broadcast, 22 correct? 23 A. Some of them turned to be wrong but yes, correct. 24 Q. Let me ask you some of what you knew about Sheikh Omar 25 Abdel Rahman at the time that you appeared on the radio SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9424 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 broadcast. 2 First, you knew that he was considered a very 3 important figure, indeed you described him as a very, very 4 important figure among a certain group of people, correct? 5 A. That is correct. Yes. 6 Q. And that group of people in which he was very important 7 were some new Islamic groups that were on the rise at the time, 8 correct? 9 A. That was where my mistake was. But I associated him with a 10 group that it turned out to be not the case. 11 I gathered all the information at the time from the 12 newspaper. So, the group that I associated him with in that 13 interview was the wrong group. 14 Q. Well, you did associate him in that interview with the 15 group al-Gama'a Islamiyya, correct? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. I understand at that one point you made reference to a 18 different group with the word Takfir? 19 A. Yes, precisely. 20 Q. And that's not appropriate, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But you also said during that interview in 1993 that Sheikh 23 Abdel Rahman was affiliated with the Islamic group Al-Gama'a 24 Islamiyya? 25 A. Yes, correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9425 4BM5SAT4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And within the group or groups that he was associated with, 2 as you said he was a very, very important person, correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. And the group that he was associated with believed, as you 5 kn