9794 4BTMSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 29, 2004 8 9:15 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 (Pages 9795-9800 SEALED by order of the Court) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9801 4BTMSAT1 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It is 5 good to see you all. 6 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 7 Mr. Fletcher. 8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you're reminded you're 9 still under oath. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. 11 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 12 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 13 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, resumed. 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd) 15 BY MS. BAKER: 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, there has been some testimony at this trial 17 about an occasion when an Italian newspaper posed some 18 questions to Sheikh Abdel Rahman. 19 Do you remember that testimony? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Ramsey Clark was the lawyer who was involved in that set of 22 questions being posed to the Sheikh, is that right? 23 A. Yes, that's right. 24 Q. And the questions were posed to the Sheikh and the Sheikh 25 provided some answers, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9802 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, he did. 2 Q. And subsequently those answers were passed to the Italian 3 newspaper, correct? 4 A. I'm not sure what Mr. Clark did. 5 Q. Well, you were involved in preparing answers to be passed 6 to the Italian newspaper, correct? 7 A. Yes, correct. 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 A. Thank you. 11 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you a document marked for 12 identification as Government Exhibit 707A. 13 Do you recognize that as a document that you prepared? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you translated the content of that document and typed 16 it up, correct? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. And is this document the answers to the questions for the 19 Italian newspaper? 20 A. I believe so, yes. Either the full text or summaries. 21 Q. Well, if you would please look at it for a minute. It 22 looks like full text. Each answer is a paragraph long or so, 23 complete sentences, and so on. 24 A. I can't really give you a definite answer. It is either a 25 full text or a summary. I know sometimes Mr. Clark would ask SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9803 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 me to summarize the answer. So it is the text that I provided 2 for Mr. Clark, yes. 3 Q. Well, if you would look at it for a minute, please, I would 4 like you to tell me, based on reading the content of it, 5 whether it appears to you to be full-text complete answers? 6 A. I don't recall. I can't answer that with certainty. It is 7 a text that I provided to Mr. Clark. I am not sure whether or 8 not these are the full answer or summaries. 9 Q. And these answers were sent to the Italian newspaper? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Mr. Clark never told you one way or the other? 12 A. I believe Mr. Clark either send it to them, fax it to them. 13 I don't know. 14 Q. Well, that's what I'm asking you. Is it your belief that 15 these answers were somehow communicated to the Italian 16 newspaper? 17 A. Most likely, yes. 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 19 707A. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Without objection. 21 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 707A received in 22 evidence. 23 (Government's Exhibit 707A received in evidence) 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach to retrieve it 25 from the witness? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9804 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, is it being offered for a 3 limited purpose? 4 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 5 MS. BAKER: No, your Honor, we don't believe any 6 limitation is appropriate. 7 MR. TIGAR: We would like to be heard on that, your 8 Honor, as to any limiting instruction. 9 THE COURT: Let's take it up at the break if there are 10 any appropriate limiting instructions. 11 Q. Mr. Yousry, there has also been testimony at this trial, I 12 believe, from Mr. Clark and Ms. Stewart that Mr. Clark at least 13 had been involved in some efforts to try to get Sheikh Abdel 14 Rahman transferred to Egypt. 15 Do you recall that testimony? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. Isn't it a fact, though, that Sheikh Abdel Rahman did not 18 want to be transferred to Egypt? 19 A. At some point he used to joke about it, but I am not sure 20 what his goals or intentions were other than he agreed that the 21 lawyers should pursue this. 22 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear the answer. 23 A. He used to joke about it. He used to say that the prisons 24 in Egypt allow him to have his own food, allow him to have his 25 own sermons, allow him to have his own doctors, and allow him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9805 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 to have visits every day. So I guess that's the reason enough 2 for him to want to go back. 3 Q. Putting aside things that he may have said jokingly, wasn't 4 it your understanding, though, that he in fact did not want to 5 be transferred to Egypt? 6 A. No, I don't think that is something that I ever thought 7 about. 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a page of 9 Exhibit MY550-LT4 in evidence? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, would you please display 12 page 30 of that document and focus in on the -- thank you. 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you see the second sentence of that 14 paragraph, the gun that begins, they requested? 15 A. I do see that. 16 Q. You wrote that sentence? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. It says: They requested his transfer to Egypt, against the 19 wishes of the Sheikh himself, who Sheikh insisted that he would 20 never ask the government of Egypt nor the U.S. to release him, 21 correct? 22 A. That is correct. He meant he doesn't want anybody to beg 23 on his behalf, either President Mubarek or President Clinton. 24 That's as far as I remember. 25 Q. Mr. Yousry, you participated in a visit to Sheikh Omar SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9806 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Abdel Rahman in prison on March 1 and 2, 1999, correct? 2 A. That sounds right, yes. 3 Q. And Lynne Stewart was the attorney on that visit, correct? 4 A. I believe so, yes. 5 Q. Now, during that visit you asked Sheikh Abdel Rahman his 6 opinion about whether the Islamic Group should form a political 7 party, correct? 8 A. Yes. The question was approved by the lawyers, yes. 9 Q. And Sheikh Abdel Rahman's answer was, in substance, no, 10 that the Islamic Group should not form a political party, 11 correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. Now, the request for Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion about 14 whether IG should form a political party was contained in a 15 letter, correct? 16 A. I believe it came from Mr. Muntasir Zayat in Egypt. I 17 believe the request was submitted to Mr. Jabara in January of 18 1999. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, my question was, was that request for the 20 Sheikh's opinion contained in a letter? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. You don't recall whether or not you saw or were told of the 23 existence of a letter asking that question? 24 A. I saw a letter in January of 1999, yes. 25 Q. A letter that sought Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9807 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 whether the Islamic Group should form a political party, 2 correct? 3 A. That is correct. Because Mr. Clark was in Egypt at the 4 time and he wanted his answer to be given to Mr. Clark. That 5 is what I remember. 6 Q. Now, that letter from January of 1999 that requested the 7 Sheikh's opinion about a political party, that letter was 8 provided to you by Ahmed Abdel Sattar, correct? 9 A. Everything has to go through the process of approval. So 10 it was approved by either Mr. Jabara or Mr. Schilling or 11 whoever was in charge of that particular call. I do not recall 12 reading anything such as that without an approval from any 13 lawyer. 14 Q. Putting aside whether it was or wasn't approved, the source 15 of the letter, the person who provided the letter was Ahmed 16 Abdel Sattar, correct? 17 A. That could be, correct. 18 Q. Is that your recollection, that Mr. Sattar provided the 19 letter? 20 A. I don't recall who gave the letter to the lawyers. I don't 21 know. 22 Q. Did anyone tell you that that letter had come from 23 Mr. Sattar? 24 A. The letter came from Mr. Muntasir Zayat. 25 Q. My question is, did anyone tell you that Mr. Sattar had SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9808 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 passed along the letter? 2 A. Probably, yes. I just can't recall. It is 1999. 3 Q. And you were aware, were you not, that Mr. Sattar was 4 interested in receiving an answer to that question about 5 political parties that was posed in that letter, correct? 6 A. That could be right, yes. 7 Q. Were you aware of that fact? 8 A. I just can't recall the exact -- I know that there was a 9 letter. I know they needed an answer in Egypt to Mr. Muntasir 10 Zayyat so he could pass it along to Mr. Ramsey Clark, and 11 that's about it. 12 Q. Who told you that Mr. Zayyat was the one who wanted the 13 answer? 14 A. It was in the letter. 15 Q. So you actually saw a copy of the letter. Is that your 16 testimony? 17 A. I did see a copy of the letter in January of 1999, yes. I 18 translated that to the lawyer in charge, and I was asked to ask 19 to -- I was asked to read a few questions from that letter to 20 the Sheikh, and I did. 21 Q. And you did that during the March 1999 prison visit, 22 correct? 23 A. I did that in January and in March, yes. 24 Q. Now, that letter, in fact, was from two men named Gamal 25 Habib and Gamal Sultan, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9809 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. That was one of the articles in the papers, I believe. I 2 don't recall seeing the names on the letter. I don't recall 3 that. But their names could be mentioned in that letter. 4 Q. And you're familiar with who those gentlemen are, aren't 5 you? 6 A. Yes. I've heard of them, yes. 7 Q. And they are not lawyers in Egypt for Sheikh Abdel Rahman, 8 are they? 9 A. No, they are not. 10 Q. In fact, they were two people who were working to form an 11 Islamic political party called al-Isla, correct? 12 A. I know they were forming a political party, Muslim 13 political party, yes. 14 Q. Now, prior to the March 1999 prison visit or while you were 15 there at that prison visit, did you tell Ms. Stewart that you 16 wanted to ask Abdel Rahman his opinion about the formation of a 17 political party for the purpose of your dissertation? 18 A. That is one of the reasons I submitted a questionnaire. 19 Q. Did you tell her that there was another reason for asking 20 Abdel Rahman's opinion about forming a political party? 21 A. Yes. Ms. Stewart noted there was an ongoing discussion 22 about that between the Sheikh and his lawyers here in the 23 United States and the lawyers in Egypt. 24 (Continued on next page) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9810 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 BY MS. BAKER:: 2 Q. Now, is it your testimony that you saw one letter or more 3 than one letter seeking Abdel Rahman's opinion about that 4 issue? 5 A. I just can't recall. I believe it's only one letter in 6 January of 1999. I don't recall anything else. 7 Q. Did you tell Ms. Stewart about that letter? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Now, during the March 1999 prison visit, you were the 10 person who actually posed the question to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 11 about forming the political party, correct? 12 A. Yes, I did, after the approval of Ms. Stewart. Yes. 13 Q. But you were the person who asked the question. In other 14 words, it wasn't her question that you translated, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. Now, backing up in time to 1997, there came a time in 1997 17 when Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman made a statement in which he 18 expressed support for the Islamic Group's cease-fire, correct? 19 A. I believe this was done in August of 1997, yes. 20 Q. And now, moving back to the time that we were just talking 21 about, the prison visit on March 1st and 2nd of 1999; during 22 that visit Sheikh Abdel Rahman was asked to reconsider his 23 support for the Islamic Group's cease-fire, correct? 24 A. In March of 1999 you said? 25 Q. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9811 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. I know that there were ongoing discussions about it. I 2 know that they were discussing a few things, the leadership of 3 that movement in Egypt were writing a few books, changing their 4 strategy. I just can't recall the specifics of 1999. I know 5 there was a question about the Egyptian government not doing 6 their part of the agreement. Things of this nature. But I 7 really don't recall the specifics. 8 Q. So, your testimony is you do not recall asking Sheikh Abdel 9 Rahman during the March 1999 prison visit a question relating 10 to trying to get him to reconsider his support for the Islamic 11 Group's cease-fire? 12 A. No. I recall that there was a question about difference of 13 opinions, and that was published in the papers and I needed to 14 know his comments on that. I recall that. 15 Other than that, I really can't recall. 16 Q. You don't recall asking him a question trying to get him to 17 reconsider his support for the cease-fire? 18 A. I just don't recall. I'm sorry. 19 Q. Do you recall him saying that the jailed leaders who 20 supported the cease-fire should be given some additional time 21 and that he wasn't prepared to reconsider at that point? 22 A. I -- it sounds like something that he would say but I still 23 don't recall that specific, no. 24 Q. Do you recall him saying that nothing new should be done 25 without his -- without consulting with him? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9812 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is not in March of 1999. If you are referring to 2 this. This was in September of 1999, a visit by Mr. Ramsey 3 Clark. This has nothing to do in the visit in March by 4 Ms. Lynne Stewart. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 6 Exhibit MY-550LT 4, in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Ms. Griffith, would you please display page 2 of MY-550LT-4 9 and focus in on the next to last paragraph? 10 Mr. Yousry, let me direct your attention to the 11 fourth -- starting with the fourth sentence of the paragraph. 12 Please let me know if I'm reading this correctly. 13 On Sunday, August 3rd, 1997, the Sheikh was told the 14 requested by Mr. Clark to which the Sheikh sadly replied, they 15 stood for the sake of God and now they want to stop also for 16 the sake of God. On 3/2/99 the Sheikh was asked to reconsider 17 his position by leaders who oppose the initiative. He replied, 18 "let's wait and see what they would accomplish before 19 reconsidering our position." On the same day, he was asked by 20 Mr. Kamal Habil and Gamal Sultan about forming a Muslim party 21 and compete in the election. This made the Sheikh angry. He 22 kept asking God to give him patience and replied "no" citing 23 several reasons we were discuss in details when Sheikh and 24 democracy, correct? 25 A. These are also part of the rough notes that I never SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9813 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 submitted and there are two factual mistakes there. 2 It's in September of 1999, not in March of 1999, 3 according to my notebooks. 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, you wrote that passage, correct? 5 A. I did, but it's factually wrong. 6 Q. You wrote that passage closer in time to the events at 7 issue than we are sitting here today, correct? 8 A. I wrote this passage in order to discuss with my advisor, 9 Professor Zachary Lockman, the extension of the end of the date 10 from 1995 to 1997 in order to include the cease-fire. This was 11 done in, like, probably a day or two, it was done from memory. 12 I made a mistake. 13 And currently, if you look up my notes September of 14 1999 it's the answers that I wrote down and I attributed that 15 to March. It was wrong, it is in September, and the notebooks 16 show that. 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, my question was when you wrote that you were 18 closer in time -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- to when the events had occurred than we are today, 21 correct? 22 A. Absolutely, yes. 23 Q. And the part, at least you would agree with me about the 24 part that the political parties is, correct, that happened on 25 March 2nd, 1999? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9814 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is one fact. That is correct, yes. 2 Q. But it's your testimony that you claim that the other part 3 of it is inaccurate, the part of the cease-fire? 4 A. According to my notebooks, which is the accurate thing that 5 I depend on, it is wrong. The fact that we just read is wrong, 6 that's why they are only notes. 7 Q. Turning to a different topic -- and the exhibit can be 8 taken down, thank you. 9 Mr. Yousry, the term Abu, A-B-U, in Arabic literally 10 means father of, correct? 11 A. That is correct, yes. 12 Q. And in at least certain Arabic cultures it's common for a 13 man to be addressed or referred to not by his own given name, 14 his first name, but instead using the term Abu plus the name of 15 his oldest child, correct? 16 A. That is correct, yes. 17 Q. But isn't it true that a man may also be addressed or 18 referred to by an Abu name that is not derived from the name of 19 his oldest child? 20 A. Absolutely. Yasser Arafat is a perfect example. He used 21 to be called Abu Ahmar and he never had a son called Ahmar, so, 22 yes, you are right. 23 Q. And, in fact, you referred to Mr. Sattar as Abu Hmaid, 24 correct? 25 A. That's a nickname for people who are called Ahmed. There SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9815 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 are millions of Ahmeds in Egypt, so. 2 Q. But my question was that is how he referred to him, 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And is it spelled H-M-A-I-D, correct? 6 A. Transliteration probably, yeah. H-E-M-A-I-D, yes. 7 Q. But, in fact, Mr. Sattar's oldest child is his son Omar, 8 correct? 9 A. That is correct, yes. 10 Q. So, it would also be appropriate to address or refer to 11 Mr. Sattar as Abu Omar, correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. And you have known that for a long time, correct? 14 A. I'm not sure what I -- you mean his oldest, the name of his 15 oldest child? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Yes, I did. Yes. 18 Q. In fact, you have known Mr. Sattar since 1993 19 approximately? 20 A. No, 1995. March of 1995 was the first time I met 21 Mr. Sattar. I met him the same day that I met Ms. Stewart. 22 Q. And you have known that it would be appropriate to refer to 23 him as Abu Omar for almost as long as you have known him 24 probably, correct? 25 A. I don't address people using that Abu so-and-so except for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9816 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 nicknames, so I don't think I called him Abu Omar. 2 Q. My question was given though, not whether or not you called 3 him that, but whether or not you knew that he could properly be 4 addressed that way because that was his son's name? 5 A. Sure. Yes. 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a minute to find an 7 exhibit? 8 THE COURT: Sure. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, just to back up for a minute about the March 10 1999 prison visit. You did ask Sheikh Abdel Rahman during that 11 visit about the cease-fire, correct? 12 A. I believe the question was in March of 1999. According to 13 the notes that I was shown by the government I believe it's a 14 question from Al-Hayat newspaper and the question was There are 15 disagreements about the cease-fire. So, that's what I recall, 16 yes. 17 Q. So you're not claiming that the subject of the cease-fire 18 was not discussed at all, are you? 19 A. No. I'm just saying this is what I recall. There were two 20 questions I asked him after being approved by the lawyers, and 21 those couple of questions had a specific and immediate impact 22 on my writing. And at the same time they were ongoing 23 questions between the Sheikh and the lawyers here in the United 24 States -- Mr. Clark, Mr. Jabara and Ms. Stewart. That's all. 25 Q. I'm trying to figure out though, when I showed you that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9817 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 piece of your dissertation a few minutes ago, you indicated 2 that you now believe that some portion of it was inaccurate so 3 I'm trying to narrow down, specifically, which part you're 4 claiming is inaccurate. 5 You agree that you did ask the Sheikh his opinion 6 about forming a political party on March 9th of 1999, correct? 7 A. That was a question approved by the lawyers for the two 8 purposes, yes. 9 Q. And you asked him that on March 2nd, 1999, as it says in 10 the draft of your dissertation, correct? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. And you also did ask him about the cease-fire on March 2nd 13 of 1999, correct? 14 A. I believe that was in reference to an article published in 15 Al-Hayat newspaper, yes. 16 Q. And so, your claim is that the fact that he was asked to 17 reconsider his position about the cease-fire was not asked 18 during the March 2nd, 1999 visit? 19 A. I don't remember. I just remember what I wrote down and it 20 says, there was an article in Al-Hayat newspaper and some 21 opinions are asking to ask the Egyptian government to fulfill 22 its part from that agreement. That's what I remember. 23 I remember that the specific question came up during 24 Mr. Ramsey Clark's visit in March of -- I'm sorry, in September 25 of 1999. Other than that, I don't recall. I'm sorry. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9818 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we display Government 2 Exhibit 2415-6T, in evidence? 3 THE COURT: Yes. Is that 16 or 6T? 4 MS. BAKER: The latter, 6 and then the letter T. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 Q. Ms. Griffith, would you focus in on the top half of the 7 page, please? 8 And Mr. Yousry, if you would like to see your original 9 Arabic notes I would be happy to provide those to you, but this 10 is the translation of notes that you wrote during the visit on 11 March 2nd, 1999, correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. It's one page of two pages document. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could you ask Mr. Yousry to 14 just sort of back away from the microphone and not speak so 15 quite directly into it? 16 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry, back away from the microphone 17 a bit but keep your voice up so that the voice projects through 18 the microphone. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, is it your testimony that there were originally 21 two pages of notes? 22 A. I believe so, yes; according to the FBI labeling of the 23 material that was seized from my house. Yes. 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9819 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you your original handwritten notes 2 which are in evidence as Government Exhibit 2415-6. 3 A. That is correct, yes. 4 Q. Is it your testimony that there is a second page of notes? 5 A. There is another page that was taken from my notebook by 6 the FBI on April 9th of 2002 that contains other answers and 7 questions with respect to the critical part, yes. And it's 8 dated January 15, 1999. 9 Q. I'm not sure I'm following your testimony. 10 I'm asking you about notes relating to the visit on 11 March 2nd, 1999; was there any other page of notes that you 12 wrote on March 2nd, 1999? 13 A. Yes. I had my own notes that I took on January 15 of 1999 14 and I asked the Sheikh about those answers and he dictated the 15 new answer. 16 So, there were two pages together and this is only one 17 part. 18 Q. Are you saying that when you were at the visit on March 19 2nd, 1999, you had with you notes that you had previously 20 written in January? 21 A. Yes. That's the same -- that's why it's two-part document, 22 yes. 23 Q. But that other page that you are now referring to was 24 written in January 1999, correct? 25 A. I believe so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9820 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Is this 2415-6, this is the only page that you wrote on 2 March 2nd, 1999, correct? 3 A. With respect to these two questions, yes. But there were 4 several other notes taken, yes. 5 Q. Was this page originally part of your note book? Right now 6 it's a separate page? 7 A. No, I think it's a separate page. It has a three-hole 8 punch so I kept them in another folder in order to refer back 9 to if the lawyers asked a question or if they want to refer to 10 it for my dissertation, yes. 11 Q. And is it your testimony that the other page, the one that 12 you wrote in January 1999, was physically attached in your 13 notebook or was it different? 14 A. No, they were together. They were together in whatever 15 place they were taken from. 16 Q. Okay, so in other words, that page from January 1999 was 17 also a loose piece of paper not physically attached in the 18 notebook? 19 A. I believe so. I had a lot of paper that I filed. 20 Q. Now, directing your attention to the translation of your 21 notes which is on the screen right now which is in evidence as 22 Government Exhibit 2415-6T, and if you would like, please refer 23 to the Arabic original notes that you have in front of you; at 24 the top of the page it says in English, Lynne Stewart, and then 25 3/2/99, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9821 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is correct, yes. 2 Q. And then the next line is translated from the Arabic, 3 correct? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. The part that says, "a response to Al-Hayat (this could be 6 used in a doctorate dissertation). 7 A. That is correct, yes. 8 Q. That's in Arabic in your own notes, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And then your notes say, in English, approved by Lynne 11 Stewart, correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. So, under the line where it says, a response to Al-Hayat, 14 it then has the two questions that were posed to Sheikh Abdel 15 Rahman, correct? 16 A. Correct, yes. 17 Q. And following each question there is an answer, correct? 18 A. That is correct, yes. 19 Q. Now, the second question that was posed to Sheikh Abdel 20 Rahman which asks his opinion about forming a political party, 21 that was not based on an article in Al-Hayat, correct? That 22 was something that you claimed was based on a letter that you 23 said was from Muntasir Al-Zayat, correct? 24 A. It was published in Al-Hayat newspapers and that's why the 25 second page is important, because it says Al-Hayat, January 15, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9822 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 1999. And it stated what the article has said and stated also 2 that it was published in another magazine in Egypt that was 3 called Rozaluossef, R-O-Z-A-L-U-O-S-S-E-F. And that's why it 4 would make the picture clearer if we have the second page. 5 Q. Mr. Yousry, was there or was there not a letter from, which 6 you say was from Muntasir Al-Zayat? 7 A. In January of 1999, yes. 8 Q. And that letter -- let me -- withdrawn. Let me try again. 9 Are we agreed that part of the purpose of the letter 10 was to seek the Sheikh's opinion about forming a political 11 party? 12 A. Yes. They wanted to take advantage on the fact that 13 Mr. Clark was in Egypt, yes. 14 Q. It sought his opinion about forming a political party? 15 A. Yes, it did. 16 Q. And your testimony is it was from Mr. Al-Zayat? 17 A. I believe so, yes. 18 Q. Thank you. You can take down the exhibit. 19 Mr. Yousry, Mr. Sattar was the spokesperson for 20 Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in North America, correct? 21 MR. PAUL: Objection. 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 23 MR. PAUL: Objection to the form of the question. 24 THE COURT: I will take it for the witness' 25 understanding. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9823 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 THE WITNESS: It was my understanding in 1995, 1996 2 that, according to all the news reports, that Mr. Sattar is the 3 spokesperson, but I found out later that I was wrong and I 4 never included that in drafts of my dissertation. 5 Q. Well, Mr. Yousry, you still believed that to be the case in 6 1998 or 1999, didn't you? 7 A. I might have that written down some place but I don't think 8 that Mr. Sattar is the spokesperson of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya. 9 He didn't know much about it other than what was written in the 10 newspapers. 11 He knew a lot about the Sheikh's experience in the 12 United States and I believe I corrected my understanding by 13 saying that he was the chairperson of the committee to defend 14 Omar Abdel Rahman in New York. I think that was in the last 15 versions submitted to Professor Lockman. 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, in 1998 or 1999, in notes for your 17 dissertation, you wrote that Mr. Sattar was the spokesperson 18 for Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in North America, did you not? 19 A. That could be right, yes. 20 Q. Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 23 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you the document marked for 24 identification as Government Exhibit 706A. If you would turn, 25 please, to the second page and look at the second sentence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9824 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, I have that. 2 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you wrote in 1998 3 or 1999 that Mr. Sattar was the spokesperson for Al-Gama'a 4 al-Islamiyya in North America? 5 A. These are the same notes that -- you know, these are like 6 raw research notes and I did write that. And as I check my 7 notes and I researched further, several facts were found out to 8 be wrong here and this is one of them. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, you also believed, did you not, that Mr. Sattar 10 was Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's spokesperson? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, over the years that you've known Mr. Sattar he has, on 13 occasion, told you various things about his views about the 14 Islamic Group, correct? 15 A. Yes, he did. 16 Q. And he's also told you things about his views about Sheikh 17 Omar Abdel Rahman? 18 A. Yes, he did. 19 Q. So you were aware, were you not, that Mr. Sattar believes 20 in the politics that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman subscribes to, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you're aware, or you were aware that Mr. Sattar also 24 believes in the fatwas that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman issues? 25 A. In general he believes that Omar Abdel Rahman is a person SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9825 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 who also always speaks the truth, yes. So, I'm not really 2 sure. 3 Q. And Mr. Sattar also believed that Sheikh Abdel Rahman was 4 one of the leaders of the Islamic Group, correct? 5 A. Yes, that is correct. 6 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, you participated in visiting Sheikh Abdel 7 Rahman in prison on May 19th and 20th of 2000, correct? 8 A. That is right, yes. 9 Q. Now, before you went on that visit you had become aware, 10 had you not, that in or about March of 2000 some individuals 11 claiming to be part of the Abu Sayyaf terrorist group had 12 committed a kidnapping in the Philippines? 13 A. We read articles about the Philippines, about Kashmir, Abu 14 Sayyafs groups, several other groups, yes. I read that, yes. 15 Q. And you knew from the articles that you had read that they 16 kidnapped approximately 29 hostages, correct? 17 A. That is -- that sounds right, yes. 18 Q. And you knew from the articles that you read that one of 19 their demands was that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman be released 20 from prison, correct? 21 MR. TIGAR: Object to the form of the question, your 22 Honor. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 MS. BAKER: May I have a minute, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9826 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Mr. Yousry, one of the things that you had read or heard 2 was that the Abu Sayyaf members were demanding the release of 3 Abdel Rahman from prison, correct? 4 A. Along with $20 million ransom, yes. I read that in Arabic 5 and English newspapers. Yes. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could we have an instruction 7 about these newspaper articles? 8 THE COURT: Sure. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, I have previously instructed you 10 that the newspaper articles were not received for the truth of 11 any of the statements in the articles but rather for the effect 12 on the knowledge, intent or state of mind of someone, for 13 example, to the extent that they were read by Mr. Yousry for 14 the effect on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 15 All right? 16 BY MS. BAKER:: 17 Q. And Mr. Yousry you understood, did you not, from what you 18 read or heard, that the demands that were made were what the 19 kidnappers were seeking in order to release their hostages, 20 correct? 21 A. There were several reports in the paper, they were 22 conflicting reports about what they want and what they said. 23 There were no actual word-for-word translations of something 24 they issued but they were conflicting reports in the paper. 25 Some papers said that $20 million was their demand. Others SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9827 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 said that independence for the small island of -- I forgot the 2 name of the island right now -- also others stated the fact 3 that they wanted to release all the Muslim prisoners including 4 Omar Abdel Rahman. 5 So, there were a lot of conflicting articles, yes. 6 Q. My question was, though, that the purpose of the demands, 7 as you understood it, was that whatever they were demanding, 8 that that's what they were seeking in order to release the 9 hostages that they were holding, correct? 10 A. One of the many demands in the conflicting newspapers was 11 such, yes. 12 Q. And from what you heard or read, you were aware that they 13 had threatened to behead the hostages if their demands were not 14 met, correct? 15 A. I actually saw that on CNN, yes. 16 Q. Now, turning your attention to the May 2000 prison visit, 17 Ms. Stewart was the lawyer at that visit, correct? 18 A. Yes, that is correct. 19 Q. And during that visit on May 19th of 2000, you read to 20 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman a letter from Muntasir Al-Zayat, 21 correct? 22 A. I believe so, yes. 23 Q. And also on May 19th of 2000 you read to Sheikh Omar Abdel 24 Rahman a letter from Nabil Elmasry, correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9828 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And also you read to him a letter from Nasser Ahmed, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes. I believe so, yes. 4 Q. And you also read him a letter from Um Nagwa, correct? 5 A. Yes, I think so, yes. 6 Q. And Um Nagwa is Nasser Ahmed's wife, correct? 7 A. I believe so, yes. 8 Q. Now, you had translated these letters to Ms. Stewart in 9 advance, correct? 10 A. I believe Ms. Stewart either gave me those letters in the 11 plane or while we were waiting for a plane, yeah. I basically 12 translated that for Ms. Stewart and she approved them, yes. 13 Q. Now, also on May 19th of 2000 you read to Sheikh Omar Abdel 14 Rahman a letter from Ahmed Abdel Sattar, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. And, as you testified on direct examination, you had 17 translated that letter to Ms. Stewart and she approved it, 18 correct? 19 A. That is correct, yes. 20 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar's letter referred to Abu Yasir, did it not? 21 A. It did, yes. 22 Q. And you knew at that time that Abu Yassir was Rifa'i Taha, 23 correct? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. Did you tell Ms. Stewart that that was Rifa'i Taha? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9829 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. Ms. Stewart knew that this letter contains writings, 2 suggestions of political leaders of the Islamic movement in 3 Egypt regarding the situation in Egypt and the situation of 4 Omar Abdel Rahman himself. 5 So, that was the instruction, is this letter contains 6 this. Yes, it did. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, did you tell Ms. Stewart that Abu Yasir was 8 Rifa'i Taha? 9 A. No, I did not. 10 Q. Did you tell Ms. Stewart that Abu Yasir was a leader of the 11 Islamic Group? 12 A. Ms. Stewart knew that those names are leaders of the 13 movement in Egypt. There was no need for me to tell her 14 specifically. These were people who are residing in Europe, 15 political refugees in Europe and Iran and Denmark. Some of 16 them were living in Poland. 17 So, these were names that come up all the time in 18 articles in the newspapers. So, they were pretty much, as 19 Ms. Stewart told me, is this letter from Islamic leaders of 20 that movement concerning the Sheikh? And I said yes. 21 Q. Did you tell Ms. Stewart that Abu Yasir was opposed to the 22 Islamic Group's cease-fire? 23 A. There was no question in the letter regarding cease-fires. 24 It was the question specifically was escalate the rhetoric in 25 the media as long as the Egyptian government does not hold its SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9830 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 part of the agreement. 2 So, there was no reference to any cease-fire. 3 Q. Mr. Yousry, he wasn't asking you about the content of the 4 letter, I'm asking what you told Ms. Stewart. My question is, 5 did you tell her that Abu Yasir was opposed to the Islamic 6 Group's cease-fire? 7 A. I'm sure I did not tell her on that day, no. 8 Q. Now, the letter from Mr. Sattar that you read to Sheikh 9 Abdel Rahman on May 19th of 2000 is not contained in your 10 notebooks, correct? 11 A. It was on a separate piece of paper and I wrote down the 12 answer to that letter and to Muntasir Zayat also on separate 13 pieces of paper, yes. 14 Q. And as you just said, there came a time when Sheikh Abdel 15 Rahman dictated an answer to Mr. Sattar's letter, correct? 16 A. I believe it was the next day, yes. 17 Q. That was May 20th of 2000, correct? 18 A. That is correct, yes. 19 Q. Now, after the visit you translated Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 20 response to Mr. Sattar to Ms. Stewart, correct? 21 A. That is correct. Not only the response to Mr. Sattar, the 22 response to other letters that he got. Yes. 23 Q. And Ms. Stewart approved that the letter that Sheikh Abdel 24 Rahman had dictated could be given to Mr. Sattar, correct? 25 A. I believe so. And I also know that usually we have a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9831 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 meeting a week or a few days after the visit with whatever 2 lawyer is present in charge to discuss how that stuff would be 3 handled. Mr. Sattar's role was to contact Egypt on behalf of 4 the lawyers here. 5 So I'm not sure if this took place or not but yes, 6 that was approved, yes. 7 Q. Just to go back to the question and make sure that we're 8 understanding each other; it was approved for you to give 9 Sheikh Abdel Rahman's response to Mr. Sattar, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And, as you testified a minute ago, that response that 12 Sheikh Abdel Rahman had dictated, which you later gave to 13 Mr. Sattar, that was written by you on a separate piece of 14 paper, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. Meaning a piece of paper that was not physically attached 17 in one of your notebooks, correct? 18 A. The notebook was falling apart at the time and I had a 19 rubberband around it, so, yes. It was not in the notebook but 20 in a separate piece of paper with the letter that Ms. Stewart 21 gave me, yes. 22 Q. Now, on June 13th of 2000, as you later learned, 23 Ms. Stewart issued a statement on behalf of Sheikh Abdel 24 Rahman, correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9832 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Now, you testified during your direct examination that you 2 did not meet with Ms. Stewart between May 20th of 2000 and June 3 13th of 2000. Is that your testimony? 4 A. Yes. I don't think we ever met, no. That was my 5 testimony, yes. 6 Q. But, it is true, is it not, that after you left the prison 7 on May 20th of 2000 and before June 13th of 2000, you had 8 translated to Ms. Stewart what Sheikh Abdel Rahman had said on 9 May 20th about the cease-fire and in response to Sattar's 10 letter, correct? 11 A. Yes, that is correct. Yes. 12 Q. And soon after you got back to New York, which also was 13 prior to June 13th of 2000, you had given Mr. Sattar Sheikh 14 Abdel Rahman's response to his letter, correct? 15 A. To his letter, to Nasser's letter, to Nabil's letter, to 16 Nasser's wife, to Mr. Al-Zayat, yes. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a minute? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a minute to find an 20 exhibit? Actually, it might take me more than a minute, it 21 might take me two or three. So, if it would be a convenient 22 time for a recess I would request one. 23 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we will 24 take one. 25 Ladies and gentlemen, remember my continuing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9833 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 instructions. Please don't talk about the case at all. 2 Remember to keep an open mind, you have heard all the evidence, 3 I have instructed you on the law and you have returned to the 4 jury room to begin your deliberations. 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9834 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: Please, be seated. 6 There was a question about whether there should be a 7 limiting instruction for 707A? 8 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. I have now read 707A and 9 I withdraw any such concern. 10 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 11 Mr. Ruhnke? 12 MR. RUHNKE: I have no concern, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: All right. And I don't have to tell the 14 jury anything that the exhibit has been admitted. All right. 15 (Recess) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9835 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MR. RUHNKE: Can Mr. Yousry resume the stand? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 5 Mr. Fletcher. 6 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you're 7 still under oath. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 9 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 10 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 11 BY MS. BAKER: 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, a couple of minutes before we took the break I 13 asked you the following question and you gave the following 14 answer: 15 "Q Did you tell Ms. Stewart that Abu Yassir was opposed to the 16 Islamic Group's ceasefire? 17 "A There was no question in the letter regarding the 18 ceasefire." 19 You were referring there to the letter to Mr. Sattar 20 that you read to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman on May 19 of 2000, 21 correct? 22 A. I believe so, yes. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 24 Government Exhibit 1707X in evidence? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9836 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, would I like to display the 2 portions starting on page 34. For the record, the page numbers 3 that I'm using are the page numbers of the dot PDF version of 4 the document which is the version that was displayed to the 5 jury earlier in the trial. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, I am going to read a portion of this to you and 8 I will ask you if I'm reading it correctly. This is when you 9 were reading to Sheikh Abdel Rahman from Mr. Sattar's letter on 10 May 19 of 2000. 11 Do you recognize this part of the transcript? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Starting on line 3 of page 34, which is now showing on the 14 screen: Number ten: Abu Yassir called me the day before 15 yesterday. He still asks for your Honor's moral support to his 16 position, particularly at this time, after three years have 17 passed since the initiative that did not produce big results 18 was issued. I had explained to you, sir, his viewpoint before. 19 Back then, you asked him to commit himself, and to give his 20 brothers a chance. Up till now, the man is committed, but I 21 don't think he will be able to remain quiet longer than that. 22 I sent to you, sir, the statement he issued on al-Azhar 23 University incidents, which exposed him to the criticism of 24 some brothers, particularly, because of its strong language. 25 Then you, brackets, hand motion to Stewart. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9837 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Did I read that correctly? 2 A. Yes, you did. 3 Q. Then there is some discussion between you and Stewart and 4 Sheikh Abdel Rahman, correct? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. If we could continue down to the next page, page 35 of 7 government 1707X, starting at line 6. Do you see where it says 8 bracket, resumes reading? -- line 7, brackets, resumes reading? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. I would ask you to follow along as I continue. Which 11 exposed him to strong language, criticism of some brothers, 12 though he didn't say anything other than what is supposed to be 13 said. He therefore asks for your straightforward opinion, sir, 14 especially that you know that the man has his massive weight 15 among many brother and that if the regime worries about anyone, 16 it is Abu Yassir. I had told him and the other brothers about 17 your request, sir, concerning the evaluation of the initiative. 18 He had the same opinion. It is clear, though, that those who 19 push to go by the initiative are the brothers in Liman, even 20 though they are very few. Bracket, articulating as he corrects 21 himself, close brackets. No. The brothers in Liman and very 22 few others outside. Abu Yassir is of the opinion that the 23 group has to well utilize the initiative paper. The least to 24 do is to allow media escalation and to demonstrate disgust at 25 the way the situation ended up, especially that the most they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9838 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 allow now is some improvement in prisons, permission of visits, 2 and release of some prisoners. 3 Bear in mind, though, that those they released had 4 nothing to do with anything to start with, and that there are 5 so many others the government refuses to even discuss their 6 future, like those detained for more than ten years without any 7 charge, like Hasan Al-Gharbawi, phonetic; Dr. Ahmad Abdu Silim, 8 phonetic; or Dr. Mahmud Shu'aib. 9 Did I read that correctly? 10 A. Yes, you did. 11 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take that down. 12 May we have that back up again, please. If you would 13 continue scrolling down. 14 Q. Then starting at the bottom of page 35 Stewart interjects, 15 correct, and you and she speak with each other. Do you see 16 that there at the bottom of page 35? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. Please continue scrolling down. 19 Then you resume reading the letter on line 6 of page 20 36. Do you see that there? 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 Q. I am going to pick up there on line 6 of page 36 and please 23 follow along. Bracket, continues reading. Unintelligible, 24 like Hasan Al-Gharbawi, Dr. Ahmad Abdu Silim, Dr. Mahmud 25 Shu'aib, and many others. Even our brothers who served the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9839 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 sentences they had in Sadat's case, brackets, flips the page to 2 continue reading the bottom part of the letter, close brackets. 3 Then Abdel Rahman says: Um. Then you continue: More than 4 five years ago are still in jail. Since 1992, the brothers who 5 were pronounced innocent in any case are still under detention. 6 They were not released. Brother Abu Yassir and many other 7 brothers think that all these things need you to have a more 8 forceful portion. No objection to the formation of a team that 9 calls for cancellation of the initiative or makes threats or 10 escalates things. Please, your eminence, say your opinion 11 about this, dictate some points we can announce in a press 12 conference with Lynne. And if you don't want to announce them, 13 unintelligible, please let Lynne know that. 14 Did I read that correctly? 15 A. Yes, you did. 16 Q. That is what you said to Sheikh Omar Rahman on May 19 of 17 2000, correct? 18 A. Yes, that is correct. 19 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take that down. 20 Q. I was asking you a little while ago about the statement 21 that you had written referring to Mr. Sattar as the 22 spokesperson for al-Gama'a al-Islamyia in North America. In 23 your notes where you wrote that you did not refer to Mr. Sattar 24 by name, but rather you referred to him as Abu Omar, correct? 25 A. I believe I did, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9840 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. If you would look, please, at Government Exhibit 706A which 2 should still be there in front of you? 3 A. Which page? 4 Q. The second page, the top of the second page. The second 5 sentence on that page. Am I correct that you refer to him 6 there as Abu Omar? 7 A. Yes, I believe so. 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, you have it in front of you. It refers -- 9 A. I'm trying to find the beginning and the end. 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you see the sentence that I'm talking about? 11 A. Sorry. I was on the wrong page. I'm sorry. Yes, I do. 12 Q. And yet elsewhere on the same page you identified 13 Mr. Sattar by his first and last name, correct? 14 A. Which page? I'm sorry. 15 Q. The second page of Government Exhibit 706A. Let me direct 16 your attention specifically to footnote 2 at the bottom of the 17 page. 18 A. Yes, I see that. 19 Q. There you referred to Mr. Sattar as Ahmed Sattar, correct? 20 A. Yes. It says person interview NYC, Ahmed Sattar. There is 21 no date, nothing. Yes. 22 Q. Just to be clear, that footnote, footnote 2, relates to a 23 different sentence of the main text, correct, not the sentence 24 that identifies Abu Omar as the spokesperson for al-Gama'a 25 al-Islamiya? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9841 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we request a limiting 2 instruction. 3 THE COURT: This is being offered with respect to 4 Mr. Yousry's understanding, state of mind. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't object to that 6 instruction. 7 THE COURT: It is offered with respect to Mr. Yousry's 8 understanding and state of mind. 9 Q. Am I correct that the footnote which identifies Mr. Sattar 10 by name is a footnote for a different sentence in the main 11 text, not the one that says that Abu Omar, is the spokesperson 12 for al-Gama'a al-Islamiya? 13 A. You're absolutely correct. There were notes and those 14 facts were wrong and I corrected that letter. 15 Q. To turn to a different subject, you visited Sheikh Omar 16 Abdel Rahman in prison again in July of 2001, correct? 17 A. With Ms. Stewart, yes. 18 Q. Now, before you went to that prison visit in July 2001, you 19 had heard or read stories in the media that reported that the 20 ship known as the U.S.S. Cole was bombed on October 12 of 2000, 21 correct? 22 A. That is correct, yes. It was read to the Sheikh, I 23 believe, from the New York Times, approved by Mr. Jabara and 24 some other articles were approved, yes. 25 Q. You read some of those articles to the Sheikh shortly after SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9842 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 the incident occurred, correct? 2 A. Yes. They were in the newspapers, yes. 3 Q. You knew from the articles that you read from the Sheikh 4 that the bombing occurred in Aden Harbor in Yemen, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. TIGAR: Object to the form. 7 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. Stricken. 8 Q. The articles that you read reported that the bombing had 9 occurred in Hayden Harbor? 10 A. In Yemen, yes. 11 Q. The articles also reported that the bombing was a result of 12 some terrorists who piloted a bomb-ladened boat over alongside 13 the U.S.S. Cole, correct? 14 A. The articles or maybe newscast programs, yes, but it was a 15 known fact at the time, yes. 16 Q. And the articles also reported that the bomb that they set 17 off ripped a large hole in the side of the U.S.S. Cole, 18 correct? 19 A. I believe the article stated that, according to Mr. Jabara, 20 who was reading that to the Sheikh, it says, as big as two 21 buses, something like that. I really can't recall the exact 22 article. But those articles were read to the Sheikh by 23 Mr. Jabara, and I believe Mr. Clark. 24 Q. And the articles also reported that as a result of the 25 bombing 17 crew members died, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9843 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is correct, yes. 2 Q. And the number of others were injured, correct? 3 A. I believe so, yes. 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 A. Thank you. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you a copy of the exhibit in 8 evidence as MY-1403. That's a check that you received in 9 payment for your work as a translator on Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 10 appeal, correct? 11 A. That is correct, yes. 12 Q. The check is for approximately $32,000, correct? 13 A. A little bit over 33,000, yes. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I retrieve that and 15 display it for the jury? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, you testified on direct examination that you 18 had billed for an amount larger than -- withdrawn. Let me back 19 up. The check actually is for an amount just over $33,000, 20 correct? 21 A. Little bit over 33, yes. 22 Q. And you testified on direct examination that you actually 23 billed for a larger amount than that, correct? 24 A. I believe the amount was 46 or 48,000. I can't recall. 25 Q. So you received a check that was approximately $15,000 less SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9844 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 than the amount you requested, correct? 2 A. That is correct, yes. 3 Q. Now, this check is a check from the United States Treasury, 4 correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take the exhibit down. 7 Q. You were asked on direct examination about money that you 8 received from Ms. Stewart's trust account. Do you remember 9 being asked those questions? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. And you testified -- and I'm quoting an answer on 12 transcript, page 9181 -- you testified: "I was paid $35,000 to 13 cover the difference in my original voucher that I didn't get 14 from the government, and Mr. Clark and Ms. Stewart were not 15 able to recover this money from me. On top of that, I had I 16 think it was $11,000 for the rest of my services. So a total 17 of 35, if I'm not mistaken. 18 Do you remember giving that answer? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. In that answer did you mean that the $35,000 that you 21 received from Ms. Stewart's trust account included what you 22 described as $11,000 for the rest of your services? 23 A. There were 11,000 plus 15,000, and there was some other 24 stuff that I was working on, so it was kind of an advanced 25 payment for $3,000, if I'm not mistaken. I can't recall the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9845 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 payout, but that sounds about right. 2 Q. I want to try to go through these numbers in some detail, 3 so I need to follow up on that. I'm focusing right now just on 4 the payment of $35,000 that you received. You received $35,000 5 in one lump sum on one date, correct? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. Out of that $35,000, was it your testimony or are you 8 claiming that $11,000 was to pay you for some services that you 9 had provided? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Were those services different from your work translating 12 for Sheikh Abdel Rahman's appeal? 13 A. No, they were not. They were after the appeal was over, 14 there was a certain period of time that the government did not 15 take any further billing after that. Mr. Clark wasn't here 16 that often. So a couple of my vouchers were not signed on 17 time. No. One voucher, actually, because of the mistake in 18 the billing dates or whatever happened, it was cut. And I 19 think another voucher was not even billed because the date was 20 over. So there was some differences in the amount. That was 21 the first thing. 22 The second thing is, I did not stop providing services 23 after the appeal was over. I continued working twice a week, 24 phone calls, and I continued translating materials that the 25 lawyers gave me. So it included all that. That's my best SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9846 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 recollection of this. 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, at one point in your direct you testified that 3 your voucher in connection with the work that you did on the 4 appeal was for $48,000. Do you believe that that number is 5 accurate? 6 A. I believe so. I think so, yes. 7 Q. Out of that $48,000, you received, as we just saw in the 8 check, MY-1403, you received approximately $33,000 through the 9 Federal Government, correct? 10 A. Yes, absolutely, yes. 11 Q. So that leaves a difference of approximately $15,000, 12 correct? 13 A. Absolutely, yes. 14 Q. Of the $35,000 that you received on one occasion from 15 Ms. Stewart's trust account, was any of that to make up for 16 that $15,000 difference? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was the whole 15,000 part of that 35,000? 19 A. Yes, it was supposed to be included, yes. 20 Q. So if we take 15,000 off of the top of the 35,000, that 21 leaves another 20,000, correct? 22 A. About, yes. 23 Q. Was that $20,000 for other translation services that you 24 were providing or interpretation services that you were 25 providing? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9847 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. There was another voucher that was not billed, I 2 believe. After they argued the appeal, the judges asked the 3 government to submit another -- I think it was .5 or .4, if I'm 4 not mistaken. Another 100 or 200 pages that the government 5 submitted. And Mr. Clark was asked also to submit other stuff, 6 so I did that. And that services were not included in the 7 original billing. So there was another voucher, but Mr. Clark 8 was never around. He was traveling a lot. So one voucher was 9 not submitted at all. And I think the total of that was 10 11,000. 11 Q. I'm sorry. Was how much? 12 A. I think 11,000. 13 Q. I want to make sure I'm following your testimony. On top 14 of 48,000 in one or more vouchers, you're now saying that there 15 was another 11,000 in another voucher? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, the $35,000 that you received from Ms. Stewart's trust 18 account, you received that in November 1999, correct? 19 A. I believe so, yes. 20 Q. And then you received another $10,000 from Ms. Stewart's 21 trust account in April of 2000, correct? 22 A. Yes, I did. I think this was a reimbursement for the money 23 that I gave Mr. Sattar, yes. 24 Q. And you had testified on direct examination that you had 25 given Mr. Sattar $10,000 for him to invest in his baby formula SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9848 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 business. Was that your testimony? 2 A. It is the money that he requested, that I was told that it 3 was cleared by the lawyers, and I had the money. I gave it to 4 him and I was reimbursed, yes. 5 Q. Is it your testimony that that's what the $10,000 was that 6 you received from Ms. Stewart's trust account in April of 2000? 7 A. I think Ms. Stewart gave me two checks, one for 10, and I 8 think a later one for 10 or 9. I can't really recall. So, 9 yes. 10 Q. There was a third check from her trust account for $9,000 11 in June of 2000, correct? 12 A. Yes. That's the one I'm referring to, yes. 13 Q. Now, isn't it a fact that starting -- withdrawn. 14 Do you remember being asked the following question and 15 giving the following answer on your direct examination? And 16 this is at transcript, page 9180: 17 "Q In terms of your duties and working with the lawyers and 18 the representation of Sheikh Rahman, did the lawyers 19 occasionally ask you to do other things than simply be a 20 translator? 21 "A Yes. I coordinated between the lawyers. I coordinated 22 between the lawyers and the client things of this nature, yes." 23 You remember giving that testimony? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Isn't it a fact that starting in about December of 2000 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9849 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 your duties also included sending money to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 2 for his commissary account in prison? 3 A. I actually did not send money. Mr. Jabara was the person 4 who always write the money order, gives it to me and I mail it. 5 On a couple of occasions, Mr. Sattar and Mr. Nabil Elmasry, 6 they gave money to the lawyers to give me money orders, and I 7 mail that, yes. That's what I did, yes. 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, turning back to the Islamic Group's ceasefire, 9 you believed, did you not, that the real reason behind the 10 ceasefire was that the Islamic Group did not currently have the 11 means to attack and so the ceasefire gave them time to regroup? 12 A. Absolutely. That was my belief. And now, actually, I read 13 articles from the newspaper. They actually issue three books 14 in the period between 2000 and now. And all three books, 15 actually, they started a new theology for the movement. And 16 they preach now nonviolent. So I might be wrong on that, even 17 though I believed it then and I still have some doubts now. 18 But they have issued three new books, and those books all 19 direct the "members" and sympathizers to give up arms and fight 20 peacefully for change in Egypt. 21 Q. Mr. Yousry, you testified on direct examination that you 22 were paid for your translation work not only on Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman's appeal, but also on his trial, correct? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. And for the appeal you received a check for approximately SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9850 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 $33,000 that we just looked at a minute ago, correct? 2 A. That is correct, yes. 3 Q. And then some additional amounts through Ms. Stewart, 4 correct? 5 A. Later on, yes. 6 Q. Now, that check that we looked at a minute ago, Exhibit 7 MY-1403, that's a Federal Government check, correct? 8 A. Yes, it is. 9 Q. And when you were paid for your translation work on Sheikh 10 Abdel Rahman's trial, that payment also came through the 11 Federal Government, correct? 12 A. Not to me directly, no. It came through the translation 13 agency that was in charge of providing the services for the 13 14 or 14 defendant. And then I get paid by that agency, yes. 15 Q. Just to make sure we are clear, the payment came through 16 the Federal Government to Hess Translation, correct? 17 A. Hess Translation or the agency in charge at that time, yes. 18 Q. You were paid for your time through Hess Translation? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, the reason why the payments were coming from the 21 Federal Government was because Sheikh Abdel Rahman couldn't 22 afford to pay for all of the translation services himself, or 23 the defendants couldn't afford to pay for the translation 24 services themselves, correct? 25 A. I believe so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9851 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And so the court approved that the translation services 2 would be paid for with public funds, correct? 3 A. I think so, yes. 4 Q. But when you did your work on the appeal and when you 5 worked through Hess Translation on the trial, you were working 6 for the defense lawyers, not for the government, correct? 7 A. No, I was not working for the government at that time, no. 8 Q. In fact, at Sheikh Abdel Rahman's trial the government 9 presented its own translations of exhibits that had been 10 prepared by FBI translators, correct? 11 A. That is correct, yes. 12 Q. And so when you were working on the trial and on the 13 appeal, you were taking directions directly or indirectly 14 through Hess Translation from the defense lawyers, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. You testified on direct examination that you began working 17 as an interpreter for Sheikh Abdel Rahman's meetings with his 18 attorneys in about 1995, correct? 19 A. That is correct, yes. 20 Q. About March of 1995? 21 A. I believe so, yes. 22 Q. And the way that came about was that Ms. Stewart contacted 23 Hess Translations, correct? 24 A. I don't know if Ms. Stewart herself or one of her office 25 staff, but that's how it came about, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9852 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Mr. Yousry, your taxes were audited in 1998, correct? 2 A. My taxes were audited several times. 3 Q. Including in 1998? 4 A. '98, '99, 2001. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. I've handed you a document marked for identification as 8 Government Exhibit 709A. Do you recognize that document as a 9 letter that you wrote to an auditor in February 1998? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 12 709A. 13 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 14 MR. TIGAR: Is there a limiting instruction on this, 15 your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Offered only against Mr. Yousry? 17 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 709A received in 19 evidence. 20 (Government's Exhibit 709A received in evidence) 21 THE COURT: This exhibit is received and may be 22 considered only against Mr. Yousry. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display it to the jury? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would focus in on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9853 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 top portion first. 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, that's dated February 21 of 1998, correct? 3 A. I believe so, yes, that's right. 4 Q. And that's after you had worked on Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 5 trial and also done a significant amount of work on his appeal, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. The appeal, I believe, was billed late, but that's 8 yes, correct. 9 Q. The letter is addressed to a person who is identified in it 10 as an associate tax auditor, correct? 11 A. She still calls for different other questions, yes. 12 Q. And she was involved in auditing your taxes at that time, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes, that is correct. 15 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would focus in on the 16 second paragraph, please. 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, you wrote in the second paragraph of this 18 letter: "I was"-- let me start at the beginning of the 19 sentence, the second sentence of the second paragraph: "During 20 the famous trial of the World Trade Center bombing, and its 21 subsequent conspiracy trial, I was selected by the Justice 22 Department to serve as legal interpreter." 23 Is that what you wrote there? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. And in the last sentence of that paragraph you were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9854 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 referring to a business name that you were using, Yousry 2 Cultural Research, correct? 3 A. I still do use that, yes. 4 Q. You wrote in that sentence: "As a result, Yousry Cultural 5 Research, which was founded because of the Justice Department 6 appointment, has been inactive for more than three years." 7 Is that what you wrote? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MS. BAKER: That exhibit can be taken down. Thank 12 you. 13 A. Thank you. 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you another document marked for 15 identification as Government Exhibit 712A. Do you recognize 16 Government Exhibit 712A as a résumé or CV that you prepared 17 about yourself? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. And it was on the hard drive of the computer that FBI 20 seized from your home, correct? 21 A. Yes. There were also several other copies that the FBI 22 seized, yes. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 24 712A. 25 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9855 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 712A received in 2 evidence. 3 (Government's Exhibit 712A received in evidence) 4 MR. TIGAR: Is there an instruction on this, your 5 Honor? 6 MS. BAKER: It is offered only as to Mr. Yousry. 7 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 712A received in 8 evidence solely against with respect to Mr. Yousry. 9 MS. BAKER: May I approach the witness again? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 A. Thank you. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you another document marked for 13 identification as Government Exhibit 713A. Do you recognize 14 Government Exhibit 713A as a résumé that you prepared for 15 yourself? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would offer Government 18 Exhibit 713A only as to Mr. Yousry. 19 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 20 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 713A received in 21 evidence solely with respect to Mr. Yousry. 22 (Government's Exhibit 713A received in evidence) 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 24 Government Exhibit 712A now in evidence? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9856 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, would you please display the 2 portion on top of the first page under the heading education. 3 Your Honor, I would also like to display at the same 4 time, if I may, a portion of Government Exhibit 713A now in 5 evidence. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, did you display the 8 corresponding first page of Government Exhibit 713A? 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, in Government Exhibit 712A which is displayed 10 at top of the screen you indicate that your education 11 includes -- I'm focusing your attention on the third item. It 12 says: Cairo University, Cairo, Egypt, 1978 to 1979. Graduate 13 school of Islamic and social studies. Obtained advanced degree 14 in early Muslim thoughts. 15 Do you see that? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. Directing your attention to Government Exhibit 713A, which 18 is displayed at the lower portion of the screen, in that résumé 19 you wrote Cairo University, Cairo, Egypt, 1978 to '79. 20 Graduate school of arts and science. Obtained master degree in 21 counseling. 22 In fact, the only advanced work that you had done 23 beyond your bachelor's degree in Cairo was a 12-credit 24 certificate in economics, correct? 25 A. Absolutely, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9857 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And your undergraduate degree from Cairo was in military 2 science or military history, correct? 3 A. Absolutely, yes. 4 Q. Directing your attention back to Government Exhibit 713A, 5 which is displayed at the bottom of the screen, it describes 6 your bachelor's degree by saying, Cairo University, Cairo, 7 Egypt, 1974 to 78, school of arts and science, obtained 8 bachelor degree in history with minor in counseling, correct? 9 A. As I said before, there was a minor in history, yes. 10 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, would you leave Government 11 Exhibit 712A on the screen and also please display from page 3 12 of Government Exhibit 713A. 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, if you would look at the third page of Exhibit 14 713A. That's another resume of yours, correct? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 Q. And displaying the corresponding portion of that page, 17 which appears under the heading education, in this résumé with 18 respect to your bachelor's degree, the bottom entry of the four 19 entries there says: Cairo University, Cairo, Egypt, 1974 to 20 '78. School of arts and science, obtained bachelor degree in 21 history with minor in religion, correct? 22 A. That is correct, yes. 23 Q. Above that it says: Cairo University, Cairo, Egypt, 1978 24 to '79, graduate school of arts and science. Obtained advanced 25 certificate in religious studies, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9858 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take those exhibits 3 down. 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, as you testified on direct examination, there 5 came a time in late 2001 when you were interviewed by the 6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, correct? 7 A. That is correct, yes. 8 Q. And you were first interviewed by the FBI on September 13 9 of 2001, correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. On that date an agent and a detective who was assigned to 12 the FBI came to see you at your home, correct? 13 A. That is correct, yes. 14 Q. They identified themselves as being with the FBI, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. They asked to speak with you? 17 A. They did. 18 Q. And you agreed to speak with them, correct? 19 A. That is correct, yes. 20 Q. And you understood in the questions that they posed to you 21 that they were expecting you to provide truthful answers, 22 correct? 23 A. Everything that I know, everything that I remember, to the 24 best of my ability, yes. 25 Q. And you testified on direct examination that you did tell SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9859 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 the FBI the truth when they interviewed you, correct? 2 A. I told them everything according to my ability, yes. 3 Q. And you testified on direct examination that you told them 4 the truth, right? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. Now, during your interview with the FBI on September 13 of 7 2001, you told the FBI that the last visit you had paid to 8 Sheikh Abdel Rahman was with Lynne Stewart, correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And you estimated on September 13 of 2001 that the visit 11 had occurred about three months before the date on which you 12 were being interviewed, correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And what you were referring to there was the July 2001 15 prison visit, correct? 16 A. That is what I was referring to, yes. 17 Q. Now, in the interview on September 13, 2001, you told the 18 FBI that the only messages for Sheikh Abdel Rahman during that 19 prison visit were letters from his family regarding a dispute 20 they were having over property that he owned, correct? 21 A. There was a letter about the house that they wanted to 22 sell, yes, correct. 23 Q. And when you spoke to the FBI on September 13 of 2001, you 24 told the FBI that the only message for the Sheikh during that 25 visit was a letter from his family regarding this dispute over SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9860 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 the property, correct? 2 A. That is correct, yes. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 4 Government Exhibit 1716X in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MS. BAKER: Again, I am going to be referring to the 7 page numbers of the dot PDF version of this document. 8 Ms. Griffith, if you would first display the top 9 portion of page 1 of Government Exhibit 1716X. 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you recognize this as a transcript of a 11 portion of your visit to Sheikh Abdel Rahman on July 13 of 12 2001? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. And that was a visit paid by you and Lynne Stewart, 15 correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would please show 18 page 61 of Government Exhibit 1716X. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'll direct your attention to the portion 20 beginning on line 19. At that point in the visit you began to 21 read a letter to Sheikh Abdel Rahman from Ahmed Abdel Sattar, 22 is that correct? 23 A. That is correct, yes. 24 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would scroll down, 25 please, to page 62. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9861 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. I'd like to focus your attention, Mr. Yousry, on line 13. 2 Do you see there? It says the number one. 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. I would like you to follow along. I'm going to ask you if 5 I'm reading correctly from the exhibit. 6 This is what you were reading to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 7 from Ahmed Abdel Sattar's letter, correct? 8 A. That is correct, yes. 9 Q. 1, Mohammed, your son, called me the day before yesterday. 10 He says hello to you, he missed you, he prays God to confirm 11 you. 12 Have I read it correctly so far? 13 A. Yes, you are. 14 Q. I am going to skip down a few lines where you resume 15 reading on line 20: Honorable Sheikh, please be informed that 16 we are the weak to the greatest extent and that we get the 17 power and might from God, his majesty and then, then from your 18 holding onto truth. Honorable Sheikh, please be informed that 19 anything you say, especially if we sense some weakness in it, 20 affects us all and weakens us, particularly among our brothers 21 with whom we stay. Maybe you know how proud and dignified we 22 felt when you announced your withdrawal of support to the 23 initiative. You are the weak and sick prisoner. You neither 24 withhold nor suppress a word of truth, even when you behind 25 bars. For this reason, we were greatly astonished when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9862 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Muntasir wrote in the newspapers that you urge to go forth with 2 the initiative. These words had a severe influence on us. 3 Please explain this to us, your eminence. 4 If any of the brothers, like Muntasir, needs to be 5 sold some encouraging words to strengthen him, unintelligible, 6 not to have it published in newspapers. Words like these 7 weaken us, especially because you, your eminence, do not belong 8 to a certain group. All the people look up to you and at what 9 you issue and convey it to each other. He closed the brackets. 10 That was you talking about what was in Mr. Sattar's 11 letter, correct, that last sentence when you say, he closed the 12 brackets? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So the part that you were reading from Sattar's letter 15 ended with the phrase, convey it to each other, correct? 16 A. No. I think that's the part that Sattar was quoting that 17 the son said. 18 Q. I didn't mean to interrupt your answer. To be more clear, 19 the part that you were reading from, the item No. 1 in 20 Mr. Sattar's letter, ends with the words convey it to each 21 other, correct? 22 A. I believe that's where the quote end, yes. 23 Q. That was Mr. Sattar repeating what he had heard from Sheikh 24 Omar Abdel Rahman's son Mohammed, correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9863 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take that down. 2 Q. Turning back to your interview with the FBI on September 3 13, 2001, the FBI asked you during that interview if you were 4 aware of any messages from Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's son, 5 Mohammed and Ahmed, that were ever passed to Sheikh Abdel 6 Rahman or presented to the attorneys for review. 7 Do you remember being asked that question? 8 A. I believe so, yes. 9 Q. At first when you answered that question on September 13, 10 2001, you stated that you were not aware of any messages from 11 Mohammed or Ahmed ever being passed to the Sheikh or being 12 presented to the attorneys for review. 13 Do you remember telling the FBI that? 14 A. I do, yes. Because -- 15 Q. I'm sorry? 16 A. That's all right. Go ahead. 17 Q. Then you recalled, as you told the FBI on September 13 of 18 2001, that there was one message from one of the two sons, but 19 you could not recall which one, correct? 20 A. I believe so, yes. 21 Q. And you told the FBI on September 13, 2001 that that one 22 message from one of the sons asked for Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 23 opinion on whether the son should get married, correct? 24 A. Yes. The message you're referring to was not approved by 25 the lawyer. The Sheikh didn't give any answer to. I think I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9864 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 was saying the truth as I remember it at the time, yes. 2 Q. During the interview with the FBI on September 13, 2001, 3 you were asked if you had ever relayed a message to or from 4 Taha or Mustafa Hamzah and Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Do you 5 remember being asked that question? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. And you answered that question no, correct? 8 A. Because everything comes through Muntasir Zayyat, yes. 9 Q. You were asked if you had ever relayed a message to or from 10 Taha, correct? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. And you answered no? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And yet, as we looked at earlier, on May 19 of 2000, you 15 read Ahmed Abdel Sattar's letter to Sheikh Abdel Rahman which 16 included a message from Taha, correct? 17 A. On a later date also I told them everything about Taha, 18 yes. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, on September 13 of 2001, you were asked if you 20 had ever relayed a message from Taha and you said no, correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. Also, on September 13 of 2001 you told the FBI that in the 23 past Abdeen Jabara and Ramsey Clark had engaged in discussions 24 with Sheikh Abdel Rahman regarding the political situation in 25 Egypt and the Middle East, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9865 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And you told the FBI on September 13, 2001 that you were 3 certain that while you were present nothing was passed to or 4 from Sheikh Abdel Rahman and leaders of al-Gama'a al-Islamiya? 5 A. That is correct, yes. 6 Q. You also the FBI on September 13 of 2001 that the only 7 letters you had ever read to Sheikh Abdel Rahman were letters 8 from his family discussing family matters or greetings from 9 individuals like Mr. Sattar or Nabil Elmasry, correct? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. And you told the FBI on that same date that there had been 12 a lot of messages from those individuals, but that they were 13 only general greetings inquiring about the Sheikh's health and 14 matters of a personal nature, correct? 15 A. On that particular day, yes, that is correct. 16 Q. Now, on September 13 of 2001, you did have some discussion 17 with the FBI about the statement that was issued on behalf of 18 Abdel Rahman in June of 2000 regarding the Islamic Group's 19 ceasefire, correct? 20 A. I believe so, yes. 21 Q. You told the FBI on September 13 of 2001 that there had 22 been a problem because Lynne Stewart had issued a statement 23 from the Sheikh stating that he withdrew his support for the 24 ceasefire, correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9866 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And you told the FBI that that statement had come about 2 when Ms. Stewart asked Sheikh Abdel Rahman his opinion 3 regarding the ceasefire, correct? 4 A. She approved the letter, yes, correct. 5 Q. What you said to the FBI was that Ms. Stewart had asked the 6 Sheikh his opinion regarding the ceasefire? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. When you were interviewed by the FBI on September 13, 2001, 9 you were also asked if the attack on the U.S.S. Cole had ever 10 been a topic of discussion with Sheikh Abdel Rahman. 11 Do you remember being asked that question? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. And in response to that question you stated that when the 14 attack on the Cole occurred, you read a newspaper account of it 15 to Sheikh Abdel Rahman and the newspaper account had been 16 selected by one of the attorneys, correct? 17 A. That is correct, yes. 18 Q. You also told the FBI on September 13, 2001 that there had 19 been no discussion of the Cole with Sheikh Abdel Rahman since 20 the time when you read him the news report, correct? 21 A. That is what I had remembered at that time, yes, correct. 22 Q. You stated in the interview on September 13 of 2001 that 23 you were certain that nothing regarding the Cole had been 24 mentioned during the last visit that you had paid to Sheikh 25 Abdel Rahman, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9867 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Absolutely, yes, yes. 2 Q. When you were referring to the last visit, you were 3 referring to the visit in July of 2001? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. You told the FBI on September 13 of 2001 that you were sure 6 that you would remember something if the topic of the Cole had 7 been discussed with Sheikh Abdel Rahman during the visit, 8 correct? 9 A. That's what I said that particular day, yes. 10 Q. Now, you were interviewed by the FBI for a second time on 11 the next day? 12 A. Maybe, yes. 13 Q. Shortly thereafter? The second interview happened soon 14 after the first one? 15 A. I think it was three days or four days later. 16 Q. Is there anything that would refresh your recollection as 17 to the date of your second interview? 18 A. No. I know it happened just few days after the first one. 19 I don't know how many days. Maybe the 16th or 15th. I am not 20 sure. 21 Q. Now, in your second interview with the FBI, you still 22 understood that the FBI was expecting you to provide truthful 23 answers to their questions, correct? 24 A. To the best of my ability at that time, yes. 25 Q. In the second interview you told the FBI that several SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9868 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 months earlier you had been at a party and you had overheard 2 Ahmed Abdel Sattar tell Lynne Stewart that he had received a 3 call about a week or two before the night of the party. 4 Do you remember telling that to the FBI? 5 A. I believe I said that to them in the context of the U.S.S. 6 Cole, yes. 7 Q. And you told the FBI in your second interview that 8 Mr. Sattar had told Ms. Stewart on this prior occasion that 9 someone told Mr. Sattar that the attack on the U.S.S. Cole had 10 been done for Sheikh Abdel Rahman, correct? 11 A. That is correct. And that's the same thing we told the 12 Sheikh on July 21 of 2002, yes. 13 Q. I'm focusing on your second interview with the FBI and what 14 you told them. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what you told them was that someone had told Mr. Sattar 17 that the attack on the Cole had been done for Sheikh Abdel 18 Rahman, correct? 19 A. That is correct. He was looking for Mr. Jabara, couldn't 20 find Mr. Jabara. I believe he found Ms. Stewart. He was 21 shaking, so nervous, and that's what I remember, yes. 22 MS. BAKER: I move to strike the later portion of the 23 answer as nonresponsive. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 Q. Turning back to what you told the FBI on September 14, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9869 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 2001, in your second interview with the FBI you again told the 2 FBI that the only time you had ever discussed the U.S.S. Cole 3 with the Sheikh was when you read him an article about the 4 attack during one of the legal calls shortly after the attack 5 occurred, is that correct? 6 A. That is correct, yes. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 8 Government Exhibit 1716X in evidence? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, would you please display 11 starting at page 74 of the PDF version. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, this is a transcript of a portion of the visit 13 that you and Ms. Stewart paid to Sheikh Omar Rahman on July 13, 14 2001, is that correct? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the page 74 beginning 17 at line 9. You are speaking at that point and please follow 18 along. You said: We never told him about the, open brackets, 19 in lower voice, close bracket, Cole. Ms. Stewart asked: What? 20 And then you said: The Cole, huh, exploded, you show the ship, 21 the destroyer, Cole. We never told him about the call that 22 Ahmed got. You want to tell him while we are here? And 23 Ms. Stewart replied: Heh, huh, I guess so. I am not sure. 24 You said: You know what I am talking about? Ms. Stewart said: 25 No. Then you said: Remember when we went for the book signing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9870 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 and Ahmed told me that somebody called him and they said they 2 destroyed the ship because of the Cole, unintelligible. 3 Ms. Stewart said: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You said, we never 4 told him. And Ms. Stewart said on line 22: Yeah. We probably 5 ought to tell him. 6 Did I read that correctly? 7 A. Yes, you did. 8 Q. What Ms. Stewart went on to say was that you should talk 9 about something else first and then you would tell him about 10 the Cole later, is that correct? 11 A. That is correct, yes. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I now display a portion of 13 Government Exhibit 1717X in evidence? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you recognize this as the transcript of the 16 next portion of the visit on July 13 of 2001? 17 A. Yes. 18 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would display, 19 please, page 11. 20 Q. Directing your attention starting at line 7 on that page, 21 please let me know if I read the following portion correctly. 22 You said: She says, sir, we have ten minutes to 3:00. And 23 then you say in English: You want to tell him about the Cole? 24 And Ms. Stewart says: Mm. Then you say: The Cole. And 25 Ms. Stewart says: Yes, yes, just tell him this. You say in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9871 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Arabic: There is a boat that was bombed in Yemen, sir. And 2 Abdel Rahman says: Mmm. And then you say: You remember that 3 boat? And Abdel Rahman says: Yeah. You say: Some people 4 spoke to Ahmed Abdel Sattar on the phone and said that they did 5 this for you, bracket, pointing at Abdel Rahman, close bracket, 6 meaning for you, sir. They asked Ahmed Abdel Sattar to do 7 negotiations with the American government. Ms. Stewart: Mmm, 8 hmm, mm, hmm. Then you, bracket, looks at Stewart. 9 Ms. Stewart: I'm just doing covering noises. You, brackets, 10 laughing. And tell them: If the American government does not 11 set you free, they will do other things. Ms. Stewart: 12 Bracket, drops the pen and with an empty bottle, she taps three 13 times followed by a double tap over the table. Abdel Rahman 14 says: Tell Ahmed not to interfere lest unintelligible. 15 Ms. Stewart says: Covering noises. You, bracket, laughs. 16 Ms. Stewart: Continue talking. Yousry: You see? I'll tell 17 her intelligible. Abdel Rahman said: Tell him it is okay to 18 go through a lawyer but unintelligible. 19 Did I read that correctly? 20 A. Yes you did. 21 Q. That was discussion that you had with Sheikh Abdel Rahman 22 and Ms. Stewart that's part of it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. That's a portion of the discussion that you had with Sheikh 25 Abdel Rahman and Ms. Stewart on July 13 of 2001, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9872 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. A portion, correct. 2 MR. RUHNKE: I don't know if Ms. Baker is intending to 3 read the rest of that particular segment, but I will ask that 4 the rest be read at this time. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would ask permission not to. 7 THE COURT: All right. Take it up on redirect. 8 MS. BAKER: You can take the exhibit down, please. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, turning back to your interview with the 10 February on September 13, 2001, now I'm going back to your 11 first interview. You told the FBI on that date that in your 12 view, Ahmed Abdel Sattar was sympathetic to al-Gama'a 13 al-Islamiya, correct? 14 A. Yes, correct. 15 Q. You also told the FBI on that date that Mr. Sattar was 16 involved in coordinating communications for some of the group's 17 members, correct? 18 A. With the lawyers, yes. 19 Q. Well, the way you phrased it in speaking to the FBI, you 20 said that he was involved in coordinating communications for 21 some of the group's members, correct? 22 A. That's -- yes. 23 Q. You also told the FBI on September 13 of 2001 that you did 24 not know specifically which al-Gama'a al-Islamyia members 25 Sattar was in contact with, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9873 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. No, I did not. 2 Q. Your testimony is, you did not say that to the FBI on 3 September 13, 2001? 4 A. No. I did. I did not know. Yes, I did. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 6 Government Exhibit 1707X in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. And could you identify the date, 8 please, when you do that? 9 MS. BAKER: Government Exhibit 1707X is a portion of 10 the visit to Sheikh Abdel Rahman on May 19 of 2000. 11 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Yousry? 12 A. That is what it says, yes. 13 Q. Do you recognize that as a transcript of the portion of the 14 visit on May 19 of 2000? 15 A. I'm sorry? 16 Q. Do you recognize Government Exhibit 1707X as a portion -- 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. As a portion of the transcript of the visit on May 19 of 19 2000? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Before I direct your attention specifically to a portion of 22 that document, let me ask you, you were interviewed by the FBI 23 again on September 17 of 2001, correct? 24 A. That sounds right, yes. 25 Q. You understood in that interview that the FBI was again SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9874 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 expecting you to provide truthful information, correct? 2 A. To the best of my ability, yes. 3 Q. Now, in the interview on September 17 of 2001, you told the 4 agents that you did not believe that Mr. Sattar was directly 5 associated with any of the leaders of al-Gama'a al-Islamiya, 6 correct? 7 A. That is still my belief, yes. 8 Q. Directing your attention to the exhibit on the screen, 9 Government Exhibit 1707X -- again, I'm referring to the page 10 numbers in the PDF version -- if we could show, first, page 27 11 of the exhibit. 12 Now, Mr. Yousry, page 27, starting at line 11, that's 13 where you take out the letter from Mr. Sattar in preparation 14 for starting to read it to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. And then on the pages that follow page 27 for quite a 17 number of pages, you read the letter sort of one portion at a 18 time, correct? 19 A. Yes, that's right. 20 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if we could show page 33 of 21 Government Exhibit 1707X. 22 Q. I'd like to focus your attention to the portion on page 33 23 that begins at line 30. That's when your partway through 24 reading Mr. Sattar's letter, correct? 25 A. Yes, that is correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9875 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. I am going to begin reading at that line and I would ask 2 you to follow along. Bracket, reading, my communications 3 increased during the past year. I have semiconstant contact 4 with Abu Yassir, Abu Hazim, Abu Musab, Abdul Harith, Abu Ithar, 5 Abu Khalid, Abu Mustafa, and many other brothers, thank God. 6 If there is anything, please notify. 7 No. 10: Abu Yassir called me the day before 8 yesterday. He still asks for your Honor's moral support to his 9 position, particularly at this time, after three years have 10 passed since the initiative that did not produce big results 11 was issued. I am going to stop reading at that point because 12 we read this portion earlier. Did I read that part correctly? 13 A. You absolutely did, yes. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I think I'm just about 15 finished. If I could have a break of five minutes to review my 16 notes and organize, I think I am going to be finished before 17 lunch. 18 THE COURT: We will take a five-minute break, ladies 19 and gentlemen. 20 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk 21 about the case at all.