9953 4C65SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 6, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 (Pages 9954-9956 SEALED by order of the Court) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9957 4C65SAT1 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: All right, are we ready? 3 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, do you want Ms. LaFarche to 4 take the witness stand, start where we left off? 5 THE COURT: That would be fine. Thank you. 6 THE COURT: One juror has asked that we break at 4:15 7 so I will break at 4:15. 8 (Continued on next page) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9958 4C65SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: It is good to see you all. 5 When we left last week, we were in the middle of a 6 transcript, so we will resume where we were. If you could 7 orient us in terms of the specific place? 8 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we are reading AS-2T, in 9 evidence, page 5, the middle of the page with the attributions 10 starting "Yunis: Yes." 11 THE COURT: To orient the jurors in terms of the tape? 12 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, this is a telephone call 13 dated October 25th, 1999 at 3:29, and it's over line 14 718-442-3513. 15 THE COURT: You may proceed. Thank you. 16 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit AS-2T, in evidence, 17 was further displayed and read to the jury) 18 (Continued next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9959 4C6MSAT2 1 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, at this time we would ask 2 permission to read and publish to the jury Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 3 3-T in evidence. This is a telephone call dated April 28, 4 2000, at 11:51, over line 718-442-3513. I ask that Ms. LaFache 5 continue to read the attributions to Mr. Sattar and that 6 Mr. Knepper read the attributions to Mohammed al-Shafi'i and 7 Firas Jandali. I'll read the attributions of the unidentified 8 child. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, if you could remind the 11 jury of the limiting instruction that applies with respect to 12 these exhibits. 13 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, these exhibits are 14 not offered for the truth of any of the matters that are 15 asserted in the exhibits but rather for the effect on the 16 knowledge, intent, or state of mind of Mr. Sattar. 17 MR. FALLICK: May we proceed, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (At this point, Defendant's Exhibit AS-3T in evidence, 20 displayed and read to the jury) 21 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, before we read the next 22 transcript, may we have a short break? 23 THE COURT: All right. We will take 10 minutes, 24 ladies and gentlemen. Please remember my continuing 25 instructions not to talk about the case, keep an open mind. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9960 4C6MSAT2 1 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 2 the jury room. 3 (Jury not present) 4 THE COURT: Let me talk to you all at the side bar 5 just for a moment. 6 (Page 9961 SEALED by order of the Court) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9962 4C6MSAT2 1 (In open court) 2 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I told this to Mr. Paul and 3 Mr. Fallick. At some point this morning I believe they are 4 going to have a translator testify and we were going to have a 5 translator come and sit at our table during that. I wanted to 6 make the Court aware of that, if that's okay. 7 MR. FALLICK: We have no objection to that, your 8 Honor. 9 THE COURT: Let's bring in the jury. 10 (Jury present) 11 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick. 12 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we would request permission 13 to read and publish to the jury, Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 4T in 14 evidence. This is a telephone call dated June 14, 2000 at 2:30 15 over line 718-442-3513. I ask that Ms. LaFache continue to 16 read the attributions to Mr. Sattar and that Mr. Knepper will 17 read the attributions to Yasir Al-Sirri. 18 THE COURT: This is subject to the same limiting 19 instruction? 20 MR. FALLICK: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, the transcript has 22 not been received for the truth of any of the statements 23 contained in the transcript, but rather for their effect on the 24 knowledge, intent, and state of mind of Mr. Sattar. 25 You may proceed. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9963 4C6MSAT2 1 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we can't get -- 2 THE COURT: Thank you. We will hold on just for a 3 moment until the transcript comes up on the screens, and then 4 you can start from the top. Thank you. 5 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Is it coming up in full light? My screen 7 seems to be a bit dark, for some reason. Can all the jury see 8 it? 9 The jurors are indicating that the screens are 10 somewhat dark for some reason. Maybe they are -- it is coming 11 up. There must be a brightness. 12 (At this point, Defendant's Exhibit AS-4T in evidence, 13 displayed and read to the jury) 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9964 4C65SAT3 1 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, may we take a very short recess 2 at this time? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, this will probably be five 5 minutes or so. Please, remember my continuing instructions. 6 Please don't talk about the case, always remember to keep an 7 open mind. 8 All rise, please. 9 (Jury not present) 10 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, we are going to be calling a 11 witness next which is why I suggested a recess. 12 THE COURT: That's fine. 13 Do you know how long the witness might take? 14 MR. PAUL: It should be fairly brief, I would think. 15 20 minutes, perhaps. 16 THE COURT: Okay. All right. See you shortly. 17 (Recess) 18 (Page 9965 SEALED by order of the Court) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9966 4C6MSAT4 1 (In open court) 2 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, our next witness is outside. 3 Would you like me to put him on the stand? 4 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 5 Let's bring in the jury. 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: Mr. Paul. 8 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, the defense has called 9 Mr. Muhammad Muslih to the stand. 10 MUHAMMAD MUSLIH, 11 called as a witness by the Defendant, 12 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. PAUL: 15 Q. Mr. Muslih, if you be so kind to speak into the microphone 16 so everyone will be able to hear you. Thank you. 17 Mr. Muslih, where were you born? 18 A. Palestine. 19 Q. And how long did you live there? 20 A. Until about 27 years. 21 Q. Approximately when was it that you left? 22 A. Around 1974. 23 Q. Where did you go to when you left? 24 A. I came to New York to study at Columbia University. 25 Q. And have you been here ever since? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9967 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 A. I've been here, but I have made many trips to the Arab 2 world. 3 Q. But your primary residence is here in this country? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What is your native language? 6 A. Arabic. 7 Q. Are you fluent in Arabic? 8 A. Yes, I am. 9 Q. Where did you first learn Arabic? 10 A. In Jordan. 11 Q. Where did you receive your early schooling or education? 12 A. In Jordan. 13 Q. Is Arabic the language you spoke while growing up? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. During your early education were you taught other languages 16 in school in addition to Arabic? 17 A. English and French. 18 Q. Are you fluent in English as well as Arabic? 19 A. Yes, I am. 20 Q. After you came to the United States, did you continue your 21 education? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. How far did you go in school? 24 A. Ph.D. 25 Q. What did you study when you were here? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9968 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 A. Political science and Arabic politics and society. 2 Q. What degrees do you presently hold? 3 A. B.A., M.A., M.Phil., Ph.D. 4 Q. You have a master's, you said? 5 A. I have a master's and a master of philosophy. 6 Q. Where did you achieve those? 7 A. The master's at the American University of Beirut. The 8 M.Phil. at Columbia University. 9 Q. And you said you have a Ph.D.? 10 A. Yes, I do have a Ph.D. from Columbia University. 11 Q. And what is that Ph.D. in, subject? 12 A. Political science and Arab studies. 13 Q. In addition to those degrees that you have achieved, have 14 you received any scholarships, fellowships, or research grants? 15 A. Yes. I had a president's fellowship from Columbia 16 University. I had grants from the United States Institute for 17 Peace to do research on Arab politics. I had grants from the 18 institution where I teach. 19 Q. Where is that? 20 A. Long Island University. 21 Q. Is that where you presently work? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And what exactly do you do at Long Island University? 24 A. I teach political science and Arab society and politics. 25 Q. Have you held other teaching positions prior to your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9969 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 current one? 2 A. Yes. I taught at Columbia University. I taught at 3 Manhattan Marymount College, I taught at New York University. 4 Q. Have you written any books or articles that have been 5 published? 6 A. Yes. I wrote numerous books and many articles, some of 7 them in peer review academic journals, some in Arabic books. 8 Q. In the course of your teaching as well as writing the books 9 and articles you have just told us about, what primary source 10 materials have you used? 11 A. Mainly, Arabic primary source materials. 12 Q. So these source materials have always been in the Arabic 13 language? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. For the most part? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. In addition to your various teaching positions, have you 18 previously been employed as a translator? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. What positions have you held with regard to translating? 21 A. I translated for a company called Middle East Advertising 22 and Marketing. I did translation work for various translation 23 agencies in the New York area. I did translation work for ABC, 24 for NBC, for CBS, for the United Nations Security Council as 25 well. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9970 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 Q. When you worked at United Nations Security Council, was 2 that in terms of doing simultaneous translations? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Was that done both in English and Arabic at the security 5 council? 6 A. English into Arabic. 7 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, at this time I offer 8 Mr. Muhammad Muslih as an expert in the area of translation of 9 Arabic into English. 10 THE COURT: All right. I will allow the witness to 11 testify. 12 Q. Mr. Muslih, in addition to your present teaching position 13 at Long Island University, are you also currently employed as a 14 translator? 15 A. Yes, I am. 16 Q. Who do you work for? 17 A. I work as Hess Translations. 18 Q. What company in particular do you work? Is there a name of 19 the translation company you are presently working for? 20 A. Hess Translations, Inc. 21 Q. Have you done translation work in connection with this 22 particular case? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. What kind of work in general have you been doing in 25 connection with this case? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9971 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 A. Translating phone calls and other documents. 2 Q. When you say phone calls, you're talking about audio 3 material that you have listened to? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Regarding the audio material that you were asked to 6 translate in connection to this case, did you listen to audio 7 files that consisted of recorded telephone calls? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Were these audio files on DVDs that were provided to Hess 10 Translation as part of the discovery turned over to the defense 11 by the government? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Did most of your work for this case consist of translating 14 from Arabic into English? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. What was the usual procedure you followed in translating an 17 audio from Arabic into English? 18 A. The agency would give me a transcription. I would listen 19 to the tape, compare the audio on the tape with the transcribed 20 text, and if there is any need to make any changes, I would 21 make the changes. If there is no need to make changes, I 22 wouldn't make changes. 23 Q. The transcripts that were handed to you, they would be 24 handed in to you in what language? 25 A. Arabic. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9972 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 Q. So you would review those transcripts, listen to the tape, 2 and make any changes, if necessary, after you had listened to 3 the tape yourself, is that right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Where would you listen to these audios? 6 A. Either at home or on the premises of the agency. 7 Q. What kind of equipment would you use to listen to an audio 8 that you were working on? 9 A. A pedal. 10 Q. What is the purpose of having a pedal? 11 A. To be able to play the tape back and forth. 12 Q. So by pressing on the pedal you would be able to return and 13 go back to particular parts, if necessary? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. How many times would you generally listen to a particular 16 call? 17 A. It depends. Sometimes three times, sometimes four, 18 sometimes six. As many times as necessary to make sure that 19 the translation would be accurate. 20 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Mr. Muslih, I have put before you two documents, one is 23 Government Exhibit 1194X, which is in evidence, and another one 24 that is marked for identification at this time as AS-18-T. 25 Do you have them before you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9973 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Mr. Muslih, are you familiar with a specific incoming audio 3 file that was intercepted and recorded from telephone number 4 718-442-3513 on October 11 of 2000 and which commenced at 10:32 5 p.m.? Are you familiar with that call? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Have you listened to that audio file? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Was this audio file a call that was in Arabic? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you have an opportunity to translate this audio from 12 Arabic into English? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. In preparing the translation of this particular call, can 15 you tell us, if you know, approximately how many times you 16 listened to this call before you completed your translation? 17 A. At least five or six times. 18 Q. Now, before you is Exhibit AS-18-T marked for 19 identification. Would you look at that exhibit and tell me if 20 this is the translation that you prepared after listening to 21 this particular audio file? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, with your permission I offer 24 AS-18-T into evidence. 25 THE COURT: No objections. This is subject to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9974 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 same limiting instructions. 2 MR. PAUL: I have no objection to that, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: AS-18-T received in evidence. 4 (Defendant's Exhibit AS-18-T received in evidence) 5 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this is subject to 6 the same limiting instruction that I have been giving you with 7 respect to these transcripts. It is received not for the truth 8 of any of the matters asserted in the transcript, but solely 9 with respect to its effect on the knowledge, intent, and state 10 of mind of Mr. Sattar. 11 And, second, I've already given you instructions with 12 respect to transcripts of recordings where the recordings were 13 in Arabic. The transcripts themselves are in evidence, as I've 14 explained to you, because they reflect the testimony of the 15 translator who is translating the underlying recordings. And 16 you are to follow that instruction and I'll repeat that again 17 in my final instructions to you. 18 Q. Mr. Muslih, are you aware that the government had 19 translated this intercepted audio file which has been 20 introduced into evidence and that this translation of the 21 conversation is displayed in 1194X? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. You've had an opportunity to review Government Exhibit 24 1194X? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9975 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 Q. First of all, Mr. Muslih, if you would look at AS-18-T, the 2 translation you worked on, how many pages does that translation 3 consist of? 4 A. 25. 5 Q. If you would look at Government Exhibit 1194X, how many 6 pages does that translation of that same call consist of? 7 A. 20 pages. 8 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, with the Court's permission, I 9 would like to display certain portions of both Exhibits 1194X 10 and 18-T and read from the sections that I will display. With 11 the Court's permission, I would ask that Ms. LaFache read the 12 portions attributed to Mr. Sattar and Mr. Knepper will be 13 reading the portion attributed to Mr. Taha. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. PAUL: May I display it to the jury, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 MR. PAUL: This is Government Exhibit 1194X, which is 18 a call on line 718-442-3513, October 11, 2000 at 2:32:56, 19 incoming call. Participants are Ahmed Abdel Sattar, Taha, and 20 an unidentified child. And the portion we are going to read 21 begins on page 15, starting in the middle, line 15. 22 Q. Mr. Muslih, you could follow along on the transcripts you 23 have before you or simply on the screen you have in front of 24 you. 25 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1194X in evidence, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9976 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 displayed and read to the jury) 2 MR. PAUL: With the Court's permission, I would like 3 to display what's now in evidence as AS-18-T from the same 4 attributions, the same parties reading. Same call, same 5 parties, same time beginning on page 19 of this exhibit. 6 (At this point Defendant's Exhibit AS-18-T in 7 evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 8 Q. Mr. Muslih, does the part that was read from your 9 translation in AS-18-T correspond to the same part of the 10 conversation that was read from the Government Exhibit 1194X? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Mr. Muslih, what is the Arabic translation for the word 13 "ability"? 14 A. Maqdira or squdra. 15 Q. Would you please spell that phonetically so the court 16 reporter can take that down? 17 A. The first word, maqdira, m-a-q-d-i-r-a; and the second word 18 squdra, s-q-u-d-r-a, which is a synonym. 19 Q. Which is what? 20 A. A synonym. Same meaning. 21 Q. Mr. Muslih, during the five or six times you have told us 22 that you listened to this particular call, did you ever hear 23 the Arabic words either squdra or maqdira spoken during this 24 conversation? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9977 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - direct 1 Q. You used the word in the translation predisposition. Do 2 you remember that? You remember in the translation you did? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. What is the Arabic word for predisposition? 5 A. Alqabiliyya. 6 Q. Again, would you spell that phonetically, please? 7 A. A-l-q-a-b-i-l-i-y-y-a. 8 Q. Mr. Muslih, if you know, is this word, alqabiliyya, a word 9 that is used throughout the Arabic world? Is it a universally 10 used word? 11 A. Yes, it is. 12 Q. What is the Arabic meaning of alqabiliyya? 13 A. The state in which someone is inclined or predisposed to 14 talk in this case. 15 Q. In this case you determined that the predisposition that 16 you translated was referring to someone who wished to talk? 17 A. Yes, sir. The meaning here is to talk. 18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Muslih. 19 MR. PAUL: I have no further questions. 20 MR. BARKOW: May I proceed, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Barkow, you may examine. 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. BARKOW: 24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Muslih. 25 A. Good afternoon. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9978 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - cross 1 Q. Mr. Muslih, in Arabic, the root of the word anxious is 2 qaliq, correct? I am going to spell that phonetically. I 3 don't speak Arabic. Q-a-l-i-q. Would you agree with that, 4 that the root -- 5 A. Q-a-l-i-q-a. 6 THE COURT: Then you began to say is the root -- 7 THE WITNESS: This is the root verb. Root means verb. 8 The root verb, one of which meanings is to be anxious. 9 Q. And the word in Arabic for the English word eager is 10 mushtashawiq, correct? I'll spell that and see if you know 11 what I'm talking about. M-u-s-h-t-a-s-h-a-w-i-q, or 12 m-u-s-h-t-a-g. Would you agree with that? 13 A. Could you repeat, please? Can I write down the first one 14 and the second one? 15 Q. I can take them one at a time and maybe give you something 16 to write down on. Let me try it again. 17 A. Please. I prefer to write it down. 18 Q. Just a second. Let me get you a pen. 19 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I am going to mark this for 22 identification as Government Exhibit 970 for identification. 23 I'm handing the witness a pen and the exhibit. 24 Q. Mr. Muslih, let me try to pronounce that again now that you 25 have a pen. And you can write on Exhibit 970 for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9979 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - cross 1 identification. What I'm asking you is the word for the 2 English word eager is mushtashawiq, m-u-s-h-t-a-s-h-a-w-i-q. 3 That's phonetic, obviously, or a short form, m-u-s-h-t-a-g. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. Would you agree with me that those words that I just 6 spelled phonetically, mushtashawiq and mushtaq are the Arabic 7 words for eager? 8 A. Yes, mushtashawiq and mushtaq are Arabic words for the 9 English word eager. 10 Q. Just to be clear, since it took a little bit to get there, 11 the Arabic words for eager are mushtashawiq or mushtaq, right? 12 A. Yes. But there can be -- that's in general this is the 13 meaning. 14 Q. And to back up, the root of the English word anxious is 15 what we spoke about before, qaliq, which you had spelled out at 16 the beginning of your testimony with me, right? That's the 17 verb root of anxious? 18 A. No. 19 Q. No? 20 A. No. We are talking about two different concepts with two 21 different meanings. 22 Q. Well -- 23 A. Which one do you have in mind? 24 Q. All I'm asking you about is at the beginning of your 25 testimony, the first word that I asked you about is the Arabic SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9980 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - cross 1 root for anxious. And you spelled it out as q-a-l-i-q-a, 2 right? That was -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How do you pronounce that word? 5 A. Qaliqa. 6 Q. Mr. Muslih, you had testified that your transcript -- do 7 you still have it in front of you? It is in evidence. 8 Mr. Paul had given it to you. Defense Exhibit AS-18-T. Do you 9 have that? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. Do you still have what is in evidence as Government Exhibit 12 1194X? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. And you listened to the audio file or the recording before 15 you came to court, right? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. I am going to ask Ms. Griffith to play a portion of what is 18 in evidence as Government Exhibit 1194. And I am going to ask 19 you to listen to it. 20 MR. BARKOW: If we may ask the jurors to put on the 21 headphones. If I can approach, I can give the witness some 22 headphones as well. 23 THE COURT: That's fine. 24 Q. Sir, if you put these on. Here is the switch. Keep the 25 dot facing out. You can turn it on and control the volume SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9981 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - cross 1 yourself. 2 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, if I may, may Ms. Griffith 3 play a portion of what is in evidence as Government Exhibit 4 1194? 5 THE COURT: 1194 or 1194X? 6 MR. BARKOW: The audio file is 1194, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, put your headphones 8 on, turn them on. 9 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1194 in evidence, 10 played to the jury) 11 THE COURT: Hold on. We need another headset, please. 12 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor, the witness 13 for one second? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. BARKOW: May we proceed, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. You have to go back so that we are 17 assured that all of the jurors' headsets were working from the 18 portion that you wanted the jury to listen to. 19 MR. BARKOW: Ms. Griffith, if you can play it again 20 from the -- 21 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1194 in evidence, 22 played to the jury). 23 Q. If you could take your headphones off. 24 MR. BARKOW: If everyone could keep their headphones 25 handy, please. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9982 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - cross 1 Q. Mr. Muslih, that portion of the audio file that was just 2 played, that's a part of the audio file that you used to make 3 your transcript, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You recognized it as such? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. In fact, it is part of the portion that you just testified 8 in response to questions by Mr. Paul, right? 9 A. I think so. 10 Q. Do you need to hear it again to be confident of that, or 11 are you confident of that? 12 A. I think it is fine, yes. 13 Q. Now, one of the speakers on that call, you're aware, was 14 Mr. Sattar, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you heard Mr. Sattar use the word mushtashawiq, not 17 qaliq, correct? 18 A. Mushtashawiq, correct. 19 Q. Mr. Muslih, you had testified previously -- you can 20 actually put away the headphones. You had testified previously 21 about the word -- I am going to try to pronounce this, but you 22 had spelled it out, alqabiliyya? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. That was, for the reporter, a-l-q-a-b-i-l-i-y-y-a? 25 A. Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9983 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - cross 1 Q. You had testified that that was limited to the concept of 2 being predisposed to talk. Is that a correct statement of your 3 testimony before? 4 A. Yes. This is the meaning in the common usage of Arabic. 5 Q. But it is not a meaning -- that actually isn't true, is it, 6 that that word is limited to mean predisposed to talk? It 7 actually means predisposed, isn't that right? 8 A. It means predisposed, yes. 9 Q. Not just predisposed to talk, right? 10 A. It could be predisposed to talk or to eat or to drink. 11 Q. Predisposed to do something like talk, eat, drink, walk? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Write? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Run? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Hit someone? 18 A. In cases which are intended to convey the meaning of 19 activity, usually other words are used. 20 Q. Mr. Muslih, you're saying that the word could mean 21 predisposed to run or predisposed to walk because -- but not 22 predisposed to hit because that isn't an active act? 23 A. Let me linguistically put it this way. The word 24 alqabiliyya is usually used in reference to express the 25 predisposition or inclination of someone with respect to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9984 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - cross 1 feelings, to talk, to express something. I am not aware of it 2 being used to say predisposed to climb a mountain, for example, 3 or predisposed -- it is more a reflection of feelings. 4 Q. But you would agree that it would be proper to use it to 5 communicate the idea, predisposed to run or predisposed to 6 walk, right? 7 A. Predisposed to have the desire to run. 8 MR. BARKOW: May I have just a moment, your Honor? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. BARKOW: Nothing further, your Honor. 11 MR. PAUL: May I, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. PAUL: 15 Q. Mr. Muslih, would you look at what's already been read and 16 introduced on AS-18-T, page 20 at the top. You see that? I am 17 going to read it to you. 18 Sattar: I mean, judging from the way he spoke, that 19 he had, I mean, eh, eh, he had the predisposition and the 20 readiness, to the, to the, to the point where -- 21 Yassir: I see. 22 Sattar: I mean I felt that he that he was going to 23 open up, so I cut him off. 24 Yes, I see, I see, Taha says. 25 Sattar: I probably cut him off two or three times SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9985 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - redirect 1 asserting to him in the process. I mean I told him. The line 2 is not secure. The line is not safe. 3 Do you see that portion I've just read to you? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. At the top, the attribution to Mr. Sattar where he says he 6 had the predisposition and the readiness to the, to the, to the 7 point where I -- I mean I felt that he was going to open up, 8 you have testified that predisposition, the use of 9 predisposition in this translation that you listened to, this 10 conversation when Sattar was stating the redisposition and the 11 readiness to, what was he referring to, sir? 12 A. He was referring to the predisposition of someone to talk. 13 Q. That someone who wished to talk he was trying to cut him 14 off. Is that what you understood? 15 A. Exactly. 16 Q. And what did you base that on? How did you come to that 17 conclusion that when Sattar is stating he had the 18 predisposition and the readiness to talk, how did you come to 19 that conclusion, that he wasn't talking about the 20 predisposition to hit, for example? 21 A. It is clear from the context of the discussion, the other 22 party was trying to complain about the performance of two 23 lawyers. One is called Ali Rida and one is called Montasir 24 Al-Zayyat. And the other participant, not Sattar, the other 25 one, was complaining, wanted to complain about the behavior of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9986 4C6MSAT4 Muslih - redirect 1 those two lawyers. 2 MR. BARKOW: Objection, your Honor. This is not 3 translation. 4 THE COURT: Well, overruled. You can take it up on 5 further examination. 6 MR. PAUL: I have no further questions, your Honor. 7 Thank you. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Barkow. 9 MR. BARKOW: May I have just a moment, your Honor? 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 RECROSS EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. BARKOW: 13 Q. Do you have Defense Exhibit AS-18-T in front of you? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. And that line or that set of lines, the predisposition and 16 the readiness, I just want to ask you a question or two about 17 that. 18 Is it correct to say that what Mr. Sattar is saying 19 there is that he is referring to another person and saying that 20 that person was predisposed to say something and he cut him 21 off? Is that accurate? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. BARKOW: Nothing further, your Honor. 24 MR. PAUL: No questions, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: One moment. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9987 4C6MSAT4 1 Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to break for lunch. 2 After I send you out I'll excuse the witness. 3 Also, I have noticed that at least one juror was 4 bothered by what may be a draft from the window, so I have 5 asked the building to look into it at the lunch hour. We will 6 try to do what we can. It is an older building and it appears 7 that the windows have been modified in some way. We will do 8 what we can because obviously we will try to make things as 9 comfortable for you as I can. We will certainly look into it 10 over the lunch hour. 11 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please 12 don't talk about the case at all. Please always remember to 13 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I 14 have instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to 15 begin your deliberations. 16 Have a good lunch. I look forward to seeing you after 17 lunch. We will resume at 20 after 2. Have a good lunch. 18 (Jury not present) 19 THE COURT: The witness is excused. You may step 20 down. 21 (Witness excused) 22 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, may I retrieve the exhibits 23 that are up there? 24 (Luncheon recess) 25 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9988 4C65SAT5 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 2:35 p.m. 3 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 4 THE COURT: Good afternoon, all. Please, be seated. 5 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we are going to read two 6 more transcripts and play one. It is an English conversation, 7 so may Ms. LaFache take the witness stand and Mr. Knepper, the 8 podium? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. FALLICK: Thank you. 11 Your Honor, after we play the English transcript -- 12 English call, it is a 16-minute call, we will ask your Honor 13 for a short break because Mr. Sattar will then be the next 14 witness. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 Let's bring in the jury. 17 (Continued on next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9989 4C65SAT5 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 4 THE COURT: Good to see you all. 5 Mr. Fallick? 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we request permission to 7 read and to display to the jury Ahmed Sattar Exhibit AS-5T. 8 This is a telephone call dated October 6, 2000 at 9:50 over 9 telephone line 718-442-3513. 10 I ask that Ms. LaFache read the attribution to 11 Mr. Sattar and Mr. Knepper read the attributions to Nasser 12 Ahmed. I will read the attribution to Lisa Sattar. 13 May we proceed, your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit AS-5T, in evidence, 16 was displayed and read to the jury) 17 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we would now request 18 permission to read and display to the jury, Ahmed Sattar 19 Exhibit 6T, in evidence. This is a telephone call dated 20 November 12, 2000, at 1:21 over line 718-442-3513. Ms. LaFache 21 will read the attributions of Mr. Sattar and Mr. Knepper will 22 read the attributions of Rifa'i Ahmed Taha Musa. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 And ladies and gentlemen, my continuing instruction 25 goes along with the last transcript and this transcript. These SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9990 4C65SAT5 1 are transcripts of Arabic recordings so the transcripts are in 2 evidence and I have given you an instruction with respect to 3 such transcripts and will repeat that in my final instructions. 4 These recordings, these transcripts are not received for the 5 truth of any of the matters asserted but rather for their 6 effect on Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent and state of mind. 7 Correct, Mr. Fallick? 8 MR. PAUL: That is correct, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 All right, you may proceed. 11 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit AS-6T, in evidence, 12 was displayed and read for the jury) 13 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may we play for the jury 14 Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 7T, in evidence? This is a call in 15 English dated September 4th, 2001, over line 718-442-3513. The 16 participants in this call are Mr. Sattar, Ramsey Clark and a 17 receptionist in Mr. Clark's office. 18 We also ask permission to display for the jury, as an 19 aid, the English transcript of this call. The government has 20 offered to play this transcript for us. 21 Your Honor, may Ms. LaFache step down? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 Ladies and gentlemen, as you heard, this is an English 24 language recording so the transcript is an aid to your 25 listening to the recording and I have already instructed you on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9991 4C65SAT5 1 that. The recording is not received for the truth of any of 2 the matters asserted but for its effect on Mr. Sattar's 3 knowledge, intent or state of mind. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, you can put your headsets on and 5 if we could -- all right? 6 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit AS-7T, in evidence, 7 was displayed and read for the jury) 8 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a good time 9 for us to take an afternoon break for 10 minutes. Please, 10 please remember my continuing instructions. Don't talk about 11 the case at all. Always remember to keep an open mind. 12 All rise, please. 13 (Jury not present) 14 THE COURT: All right. See you shortly. 15 (Recess) 16 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, it's been brought to my 17 attention by a number of people in this courtroom that it's 18 very, very warm in here right now. Rather than people dozing o 19 off we would appreciate if the temperature could be brought 20 down. 21 THE COURT: Yes. I where I will ask Mr. Fletcher. I 22 assume that that came from the building managers taking care of 23 the windows but we will attempt to bring the TEPL TKHER down. 24 MR. PAUL: If you. 25 THE COURT: All right. P-FRPBLT we're going to call SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9992 4C65SAT5 1 Mr. Sattar to the stand from his seat here, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Let's bring in the jury. 3 . 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9993 4C65SAT5 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may call your next 3 witness. 4 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we call Ahmed Sattar. 5 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, 6 called as a witness by the Defendant Sattar, 7 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 8 THE WITNESS: My name is Ahmed Abdel Sattar. My last 9 name is spelled S-A-T-T-A-R. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may examine. 11 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, before we begin, may I 12 approach Mr. Sattar and leave two binders of exhibits with him? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. FALLICK: May I proceed now, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. FALLICK: 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, have you ever testified before? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Are you nervous? 21 A. I'm sorry? 22 Q. Are you nervous? 23 A. Very nervous. 24 Q. Just speak loudly and right into the microphone. How old 25 are you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9994 4C65SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 A. I just turned 45. I'm 45 years old. 2 Q. When were you born? 3 A. I was born on October 20, 1959. 4 Q. Where were you born? 5 A. I was born in Cairo, Egypt. 6 Q. As a child, with whom did you live? 7 A. I lived with my father, my mother, two sisters and two 8 brothers. 9 Q. Are your brothers and sisters older or younger than you? 10 A. I am a middle child. I have two before me and two after 11 me. 12 Q. Where do they now live, your brothers and sisters? 13 A. I have a brother who lives here in New York. And two 14 sisters and another brother who live in Egypt. 15 Q. Are your parents still alive? 16 A. No. 17 Q. When did your father pass away? 18 A. My father passed away in 1992. 19 Q. And your mother? 20 A. My mother passed away last year in August. 21 Q. Did your mother and father work? 22 A. My mother was a housewife, she never worked. My father, 23 yes, worked all his life. 24 Q. And what did he do? 25 A. He worked for, as 99.9 percent of the Egyptian people, for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9995 4C65SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 the Egyptian government. He was a civil servant. 2 Q. Growing up, how would you describe your family in terms of 3 economic class? 4 A. Lower middle class. 5 Q. Did you attend school in Egypt? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. How far did you go in school? 8 A. I finished high school. 9 Q. Describe, briefly, what school was like for you, in Egypt? 10 A. Mainly school in Egypt, it is almost like schools here in 11 the United States. We have what we call primary school, it's 12 like just regular public school here. And then we have what we 13 call prep school, it is like junior high. And then we have 14 secondary school, which is high school -- equal to high school 15 here. 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9996 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Did you learn any languages while you were in school? 2 A. I did in junior high, I took English. And in high school I 3 took some French. 4 Q. And growing up how much English did you know? 5 A. Growing up, not much. I learned English in Egypt like my 6 kids learning Spanish here. It is not -- it is just, you know, 7 the basics. 8 Q. Growing up did you practice any religion? 9 A. I did. I was born Muslim, and I practiced Islam. 10 Q. What about your other family members? 11 A. My family were practicing Muslims. 12 Q. What is the difference, if any, between saying you're a 13 Muslim and practicing Islam? 14 A. Well, first of all, we believe as Muslims that everybody is 15 born Muslim, every human being is born Muslim. Islam means 16 submission, submission to God, submission to your creator, so 17 every human being is born to submit to his creator. After 18 that, whatever he learns in his life later on that will make 19 him Christian, Jews, atheist or whatever. Actually, we believe 20 it would be that everybody is born Muslim. 21 What makes a practicing Muslim, Muslim is when he 22 adhere to the teaching of Islam. 23 Q. Are you a practicing Muslim today? 24 A. I am. 25 Q. As a Muslim where do your religious beliefs come from? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9997 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 A. My religious beliefs come from the Quran and the Sunna. 2 Q. What is the Quran? 3 A. The Quran is, as Muslims would believe, it is the literal 4 word of God was revealed to prophet Mohammed, may peace and 5 blessing be upon him, through Angel Gabriel. 6 Q. What are your religious beliefs? 7 A. We have -- as Muslims we have five -- what we call the five 8 pillars of Islam and the six principles. 9 Q. What are the five pillars? 10 A. The five pillars of Islam is to testify there is no God but 11 Allah and Mohammed is his messenger, to perform prayers five 12 times a day, to pay charity to the poor, to fast the month of 13 Ramadan, and to make a pilgrimage once in a lifetime to mecca 14 once in a lifetime, if you can. 15 Q. What are the six principles? 16 A. Its six principles is to believe in God, his Angels, his 17 messengers. When I say messenger I mean all the messengers 18 that we were told about, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, and any 19 other messenger that we knew about. We should believe in them. 20 We believe in his books, the gospels, the torah, Quran, and any 21 other books that was not even told to us. And we believe in 22 his -- I'm sorry -- his books, his messenger. 23 And we believe in the day of resurrection that we will 24 be resurrected and we will be judged for what we did in this 25 life. If we do good, we will be rewarded for it. If we do SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9998 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 bad, we will be punished for it. We believe in the divine 2 reordainment. Anything that's happening to us it is defined 3 preordained already. And we will go through it. 4 Q. Let me ask you to explain some terms that the members of 5 the jury have heard during the course of the trial. Sunna? 6 A. Sunna is the tradition, the deed and saying on prophet 7 Mohammed, may peace and blessing be upon him. It is his deeds 8 and his saying. It is different from the Quran. The Quran is 9 the literal word of God. The Sunna is just the saying and 10 needs of prophet Mohammed. 11 Q. What is Ramadan? 12 A. Ramadan is the ninth month in the Islamic calendar which 13 Muslims fast through from dawn to sundown. 14 Q. What is Da'wa? 15 A. Da'wa literally means to invite. But we use it -- to 16 invite people to religion, to invite people as a way of God. 17 We use it as a form of preaching. 18 Q. Let's go back to your background now. After completing 19 high school, what did you do? 20 A. Well, after completing high school I joined the army. 21 Q. When was that? 22 A. That was in 1979. 23 Q. What branch of the army did you join? 24 A. I was in the artillery branch. 25 Q. Where did you serve? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9999 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 A. I served mainly in Sinai. 2 Q. As part of your military service were you trained to use a 3 weapon? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you ever engage in actual combat? 6 A. No. 7 Q. When were you discharged from the army? 8 A. I was discharged in 19 -- January 1981. 9 Q. What type of discharge did you receive? 10 A. It was an honorable discharge. 11 Q. Since being discharged from the army, have you ever 12 possessed or used a weapon? 13 A. In 1981 was my last relation with any kind of weapons. 14 Q. Where did you go after you were discharged from the army? 15 A. I went home. 16 Q. What did you do? 17 A. Well, what we say, I tried to chill out a little bit, and 18 then I had a job. 19 Q. What type of job did you have? 20 A. Well, I worked as a purchasing agent for a construction 21 company in Egypt. 22 Q. After your discharge from the army did you continue your 23 religious beliefs? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. Were they different in any way than when you were growing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10000 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 up? 2 A. It was not different, actually. It was just, you know, I 3 was a little bit more understanding, you know, the rituals, why 4 are we doing this and why are we doing that? I was trying to 5 get a grasp of why Muslims do the things that they do. 6 Q. At some point after you came home did you become 7 politically aware? 8 A. I can say -- it is not just after I came home from the 9 army. I would say that during my years in high school I 10 started to be politically aware. 11 Q. In what respect? 12 A. In so many respects. I was a teenager. I was not an 13 athletic. I was what they call -- I was like a bookworm. I 14 loved to read, I loved to debate, I loved to do things in this 15 nature. So I was attending what we called the club in my 16 neighborhood. It is like a sporting club where people do some 17 sports. Other people, they just sit and talk politics, 18 religion, any kind of talk, literature. 19 And I joined -- not joining -- I attended some of this 20 gathering. There were some people who were what we call -- we 21 used to call them the communists in Egypt. Actually, they were 22 leftists. They are a left-leaning crowd, and the right-leaning 23 crowd which is what we call the Islamists. We were always 24 debating. 25 Q. Were you drawn to one side or the other? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10001 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 A. At the beginning I had my left leaning. I was impressed by 2 their way of talking, their intellect. They impressed for me 3 for a little while. After that, I felt like I was actually 4 leaning more toward the Islams. 5 Q. What did the Islams talk about? 6 A. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you. 7 Q. What did the Islams talk about? 8 A. They were talking about Islam. It should be a way of life, 9 not just a religion. Should be a way of life. It should be 10 applied in every form of life in Egypt. And they were given 11 examples of what should have been done, you know, government 12 wise, how people should act Islamically, how people should 13 perform. And it was just, you know, talks. They were making 14 their cases. They were trying to bring people to their side. 15 And -- 16 Q. Did there come a time that you decided to leave Egypt? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And when was that? 19 A. That was in 1981. 20 Q. And why did you make that decision? 21 A. Actually, I did not make this decision. I was pushed a 22 little bit by my family to do that. 23 Q. Why did they push you? 24 A. Joining or attending political activities with them, it is 25 to the left or to the right in Egypt. That will expose you to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10002 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 dangers by the government. Once the government see that you 2 are politically active or politically motivated or anything, 3 they will pursue you and they will -- 4 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 Q. Were you able to leave Egypt? 7 A. Yes, I was. 8 Q. When did you leave Egypt? 9 A. That was in 19 -- July 1982. 10 Q. And where did you go when you left Egypt? 11 A. I came to New York. 12 Q. Other than travelling to the United States and Egypt, have 13 you ever travelled anywhere else in the world? 14 A. No, I never been anywhere else. 15 Q. When did you arrive in the United States? 16 A. I arrived in the United States July 7, 1982. 17 Q. Where did you arrive? 18 A. I come to New York. 19 Q. Was it on a visa? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What type of visa? 22 A. It was a tourist visa. 23 Q. Where did you live when you first came here? 24 A. I lived in -- when I first came here I lived in Sheepshead 25 Bay for about four months or so, and then I moved to somewhere SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10003 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 in Brooklyn near Brooklyn College, and then I settled in 2 Midwood. 3 Q. That's in Brooklyn? 4 A. Yes, it is in Brooklyn, yes. 5 Q. Were you able to find work? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What type of work? 8 A. I had -- I worked mainly in the restaurant business. I 9 started as a dishwasher and then a busboy. I worked my way up. 10 Q. Up to where? 11 A. Up to -- I did everything in the restaurant, actually. I 12 was a busboy, a waiter. 13 Q. How much were you paid? 14 A. Well, I was getting paid a dollar 25 per hour when I first 15 started, but I was mainly making my living through tips. 16 Q. How many hours would you work in a week? 17 A. I work about 60, 70 hours a week. 18 Q. How much English did you speak and read when you first came 19 to the United States? 20 A. I did not speak much English. I did read a little bit, but 21 I couldn't understand what I'm reading. And that's it. I was 22 just working my way around the language. 23 Q. Did you come to learn, to speak, read, and write English? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. How did that come about? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10004 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 A. It was -- actually, I started to learn from the people that 2 I was working with in the restaurant business. And the 3 customers who -- I befriended a guy, may God bless his sole, 4 his name was Philip Banono. He was a customer there. He used 5 to sit at the counter, speak to me all the time, try to teach 6 me how to speak English, try to advise me on how -- I tried to 7 stick with it until today. Tell me, don't speak fast. You 8 will never -- you are too old to get rid of your accent, and 9 you will never speak like us. But at least try to speak slowly 10 so people can understand you. 11 Q. Did you do anything else in terms of learning how to speak 12 and write English? 13 A. Yes. Later on I joined Brooklyn College and I took courses 14 in English as a second language. 15 Q. Did there come a time that you began to date a particular 16 person? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who was that person? 19 A. My wife, Lisa Schreiber. 20 Q. What was her maiden name? 21 A. Schreiber. 22 Q. When did you first begin to date Lisa? 23 A. First time I saw Lisa was in November 1984. 24 Q. Do you know where she was from? 25 A. She was from Chicago. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10005 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Did there come a time when you and Lisa were married? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When was that? 4 A. That was Valentine's Day, 1985, February 1985. 5 Q. Where did you get married? 6 A. City Hall. 7 Q. Do you know what religion Lisa was raised in? 8 A. Lisa was raised as a Roman catholic, attended catholic 9 school all her life. 10 Q. Do you and Lisa have children? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How many children do you have? 13 A. I have four. 14 Q. What are their names and ages? 15 A. I have Omar, Ali, Amina, Mohamed. Omar is 18 years old, 16 Ali is 16 years old, Amina and Mohamed are twins. They are 12. 17 Q. Do your children go to school? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Where do they go to school? 20 A. Omar is a senior at Port Richmond High; Ali is a sophomore 21 at Port Richmond High; Mohammed and Amina, they go to I.S. 61 22 in Staten Island, junior high school. 23 Q. Did there come a time when Lisa converted and became a 24 Muslim? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10006 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And when was that? 2 A. That was in 1993. 3 Q. Do you know why she made that decision? 4 A. Well, it was -- first -- when I first met Lisa, she was the 5 under the impression that if we were going to get married that 6 she must convert to Islam, she has to be a Muslim. And I told 7 her no. You cannot -- you cannot convert to Islam unless you 8 believe in Islam. You have to believe in it. Otherwise, you 9 cannot be a Muslim. She said, but do I have to be a Muslim? I 10 said no. We can get married. You can keep your faith and I 11 will keep my faith. But we have to have somebody who can bring 12 spirituality to the house, which I was a practicing Muslim. 13 She was not a practicing Christian. We decided that the 14 children would be Muslims, if we ever have children. 15 Then it took her all these years, eight years or nine 16 years, to come and to realize that this is what she really 17 wanted to do and wanted to practice as a religion. 18 Q. After your children were born, where did you and your 19 family live? 20 A. I lived in Brooklyn. 21 Q. And after Brooklyn? 22 A. I lived in Staten Island. I lived in Brooklyn until 1995 23 and then I moved to Staten Island. 24 Q. Where in Staten Island do you live? 25 A. 249 Hooker Place. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10007 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Is that an apartment or a house? 2 A. It is an apartment building. It is an apartment. 3 Q. You own that apartment or rent that? 4 A. No. I rent. 5 Q. Was that apartment the subject to a search? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did there come a time while working as a waiter that you 8 had another job? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what type of job did you have? 11 A. I got a job at the United States Post Office. 12 Q. When was that? 13 A. When? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. That was in 1988. 16 Q. And is there a time that you stopped being a waiter and 17 worked just at the post office? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When was that? 20 A. That was -- it was in 1990. 21 Q. How did you get your job at the post office? 22 A. Well, I was working at the restaurant one day, and we had a 23 mailman who was a usual customer, you know, a regular customer, 24 and came up to me and said: You guys are going to spend all 25 your life working in the restaurant business? Don't you want SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10008 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 to get a good job, another job? What can I do? This is all -- 2 the only thing that I know how to do. He says: Why don't you 3 get an application for the post office. 4 Called my wife. She went to the post office, she get 5 an application for me. I filled it out. That was in 1986. 6 Couple of months later they send for me to take an exam. I 7 took that exam. Two years later I was hired. 8 Q. What were your duties at the post office? 9 A. I'm sorry? 10 Q. What were your duties at the post office? 11 A. When I first started in the post office, I was hired as a 12 letter carrier where I deliver regular mail from house to house 13 or to people's homes. And then a few months later I get a job 14 as special delivery messenger. 15 Q. What was that? What did that entail? 16 A. Special delivery messenger, I was dealing mainly with 17 express mail and special deliveries. Back then we had called 18 something special delivery. Now they don't have it. 19 Q. Where did you do the special deliveries? 20 A. I did it over in Staten Island. I was going to where the 21 mail will lead me. But I had a certain area that was my 22 responsibility, actually, which was the Stapelton part of 23 Staten Island. So I was going to pick up and deliver mail to 24 certain places in Stapelton. 25 Q. What places were those? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10009 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 A. For example, my job took me to Fort Wadsworth, to go there, 2 pick up the mail there on a daily basis and deliver the express 3 mail there on a daily basis. It took me to the coast guard 4 navy, coast guard base in Stapelton. I was going to the home 5 port where the navy ships and -- the nuclear submarines come, 6 load and unload, and delivering there; driving my mail truck, 7 arrive there on the pier. And just places where I believe they 8 were all high-security places. 9 Q. What period was it that you were picking up the mail at 10 Fort Wadsworth and the home port? 11 A. I was picking up the mail and delivering the mail from 1990 12 until they close the base, I believe, in 1994 and -- or 1995. 13 Q. Did there come a time that you also picked up mail at 14 another location? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When was that? 17 A. After -- during that time, after 1995 -- I am not quite 18 sure of the date exactly, but I used to drive every weekend and 19 sometimes, you know, if there is nobody working or I'm 20 relieving somebody, I will drive probably every day to JFK and 21 pick up the mail from there. My job going to JFK took me 22 actually two places that I never knew that they already existed 23 around the airport. I used to drive all the way to the back 24 and then there is some kind -- 25 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10010 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. When was the last time you worked at the post office? 3 A. The day of my arrest. 4 Q. What date was that? 5 A. April 9, 2002. 6 Q. Other than working at the post office, did you have any 7 other jobs? 8 A. I always had an extra job. I always had, you know -- 9 beside the post office job, I always had a second job to 10 support my family. I worked. I drove a cab, I delivered baby 11 formula, I worked as a paralegal and interpreter. I did so 12 many things, you know, besides the post office. 13 Q. When did you deliver baby formula? 14 A. When? 15 Q. When? 16 A. I started doing that in 2000. 17 Q. With whom? 18 A. I had a friend of mine, his name is Yousef Odeh, that he 19 started this baby formula. As we all heard, I give him some 20 money, invested some money with him. And I worked with him and 21 I was getting paid for what I did. 22 Q. When was the first time that you actually saw Sheikh Omar 23 Abdel Rahman? 24 A. The first time I saw the Sheikh was -- when he first came 25 to America was in 1990. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10011 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Under what circumstances did you first see him? 2 A. The Sheikh was -- he was visiting here. I believe it was 3 in July or August of 1990. He was in Brooklyn, actually, at 4 the mosque. And I was praying at this mosque when he announced 5 that we have a guest speaker, and he was going to give a 6 speech. This was the first time I ever seen him. 7 Q. Had you heard of Sheikh Rahman before 1990? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. And when did you hear of him? 10 A. Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman became a very permanent figure in 11 Egyptian politics, the politics and the religious scene in 12 Egypt through the '80s. His name was all over newspapers, the 13 media. Of course, we know the Sadat case, that case that made 14 him, give him, you know, the name. Actually, his name was 15 everywhere. So any Egyptian will know who is Sheikh Omar Abdel 16 Rahman. 17 Q. What had you heard or read about the Sheikh? 18 A. Well, I knew that Sheikh was a scholar. He graduated from 19 Al Azhar University. I know that he was accused in the Sadat 20 assassination. I know that he also was found innocent because 21 in Egypt the system, it is not guilty -- 22 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 23 Q. What else did you know? What else did you read, if 24 anything else, about the Sheikh? 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I hadn't ruled on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10012 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 objection. But the answer was finished at that point in any 2 event. You can proceed. 3 Q. What else, if anything, had you read about the Sheikh 4 before you first saw him? 5 A. I really -- I mean, I know that he was in and out of 6 prison. I know he was under house arrest. I know that he was 7 just a stand-up man. 8 Q. Did there come a time that you actually met Sheikh Rahman? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. When was that? 11 A. That was in 1991. 12 Q. Under what circumstances? 13 A. I believe the end of '91. 14 It was at the time he came to the mosque that I was -- 15 I used to attend regularly, I was a member of. He came, he 16 visited there and he give a speech there. And I was introduced 17 to him. 18 Q. And what is the name of the mosque that you regularly 19 attended? 20 A. It is Abu Baker mosque. 21 Q. After the first meeting with the Sheikh, did your relation 22 with him develop in any way? 23 A. After my first meeting with him, no, I cannot say that. It 24 was just a casual introduction and that's it. 25 Q. Did there come a time that your relation with the Sheikh SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10013 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 developed? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When was that? 4 A. That was in '92. 5 Q. How did that happen? 6 A. Well, at the time we did not have prayer leader at the 7 mosque, an IMAM, to lead the prayer at the mosque and we did 8 not have a regular Sheikh. And the board of directors at the 9 time offered Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman to come to the mosque two 10 days a week to give a lecture and to give a sermon once a 11 month. 12 So for him to do that, he needed somebody to pick him 13 up and drive him back home. So that was an assignment given to 14 different people, different members of the mosque. I was one 15 of them, of the people that drove him a few times back and 16 forth in '92. 17 Q. How would you refer to Sheikh Rahman? 18 A. I refer to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, sometimes Sheikh Omar, 19 sometimes Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman and sometimes just Dr. Omar. 20 Q. Would you ever refer to him just as Sheikh Rahman? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Why is that? 23 A. Because Rahman is an attribution of God. In the Arabic 24 language it is an attribution of God, and Abd is servant. He 25 is the servant of the merciful. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10014 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 Q. In 1992, how often did you see or speak with the Sheikh? 2 A. Well, at the beginning of '92, until about October '92, I 3 seen him a few times. From October '92 until his arrest, I was 4 seeing him regularly. At the time I became a board member of 5 the mosque and I was getting more involved with the affairs of 6 the mosque, and I see the Sheikh on a regular basis, every time 7 he comes. 8 Q. Did you hear his sermons? 9 A. I heard some of his sermons. 10 Q. Where did you hear them? 11 A. I heard some of his sermons in our mosque. 12 Q. Did you hear his lectures? 13 A. I did, some of it, too. 14 Q. And where did you hear those lectures? 15 A. I heard some of it in our mosque and some in different 16 places. 17 Q. And did you hear his speeches? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. And where did you hear those speeches? 20 A. I heard some of his speeches in our mosque and in different 21 mosques. Let me just add one thing here. Most of the sermons 22 and the speeches and the lectures that I heard, I did not hear 23 it straight from him. When he was arrested in 1993 and the 24 government seized his lectures, I got a chance to hear a lot of 25 it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10015 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Both in 1992 and 1993 at your mosque and on the tapes that 2 the government seized, you did hear the Sheikh's sermons, 3 speeches, and lectures? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Were some of those speeches and sermons read to the jury in 6 this case? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Were some introduced as exhibits by the government in this 9 case? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How would you describe and characterize the Sheikh's 12 preachings? 13 A. Fiery. He will come across as a fiery speaker. That's how 14 I can describe it. 15 Q. Did you consider them anti-Jewish? 16 A. It will come across like that, yes. 17 Q. Did you consider them anti-American? 18 A. It will come across as anti-American policy, not 19 anti-American. 20 Q. What about anti-Christian? 21 A. It will come across, yes, like that. 22 Q. Did he advocate the use of violence? 23 A. Depends on how you define violence. So it will -- if you 24 consider self-defense violence, it will come across as that. 25 Q. Was there, if you know, a historical or political context SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10016 466MSAT6 Sattar - direct 1 for his sermons and speeches? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What was that? 4 A. Let me just talk about the tapes that were introduced in 5 this trial and in the Sheikh's trial. Most, if not all, every 6 single tape that was introduced, that was in the period between 7 1990 until 1993. This period of time was a very dramatic 8 period of time to Muslims. For the first time in 1500 years, 9 an occupying force, or a foreign troops, 500,000 foreign troops 10 existed in the Arab peninsula, in Saudi Arabia, where there is 11 birth place of Islam. 12 So this was like an earthquake, shook the whole Muslim 13 world. So the Sheikh was talking in most of his speeches about 14 this, about what's gone on, the vision of Iraq to Kuwait, the 15 foreign troops that exist near Mecca and Medina. And also when 16 he -- when you hear him, that's why word come across that he is 17 anti-Christian. When he is talking about Christian, he is 18 referring to -- most of the time he is referring to Bosnia, 19 what was going on in Bosnia, to what the Serbs, Christian 20 orthodox were using to the Bosnian Muslims there. It will come 21 across like he is talking about anti-Christian, 22 anti-Christianity. This is at least my understanding, that he 23 was talking about this historical events that was taking place 24 at the time. 25 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, would this be a good time to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10017 466MSAT6 1 break? 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for the today. 4 Please, please -- first, another scheduling matter. Tomorrow 5 we are going to break for the day at 12:45, so we will not sit 6 tomorrow afternoon. We will sit the full day on Wednesday, the 7 full day on Thursday. 8 Let me remind you of my continuing instructions. And 9 as I told you before, I repeat these instructions with all of 10 the force my words can convey. Please, please don't talk about 11 this case at all. Don't talk about it among yourselves, don't 12 talk about it with anyone when you go home. Please, please, 13 don't look at or listen to anything to do with the case. If 14 you should see or hear something inadvertently, please simply 15 turn away. 16 Finally, always to remember to keep an open mind until 17 you have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on 18 the law, and you've gone to the jury room to begin your 19 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires 20 that you do that. 21 With that, have a very good evening and I look forward 22 to seeing you tomorrow morning at 9:30. 23 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the 24 jury room. 25 (Jury not present) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10018 466MSAT6 1 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar, may step down. 2 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I retrieve my exhibits? 3 THE COURT: Yes. I have a draft of the charge which 4 in a moment I will give to you. 5 Let me give you some cautions. I reserve the right -- 6 this is the current draft of the charge. The table of 7 contents, actually, is not precisely geared to the page numbers 8 in the charge. Page numbers in the charge change. As you will 9 see, it is possible that there are one or more of the charges 10 which become inapplicable. 11 It is also the current draft of the charge. As I 12 always say, I reserve the right to make any changes in the 13 charge right up through summations. If I think that anything 14 occurs in the course of summations that requires that, I 15 address it. But this is at least the current working draft so 16 that you can have it in preparation for the charge conference 17 which, as I said, we will do Wednesday after we conclude for 18 the day, and perhaps we can just finish it at the end of the 19 day on Wednesday. If not, we will continue the next day or 20 however long we have to take. 21 I checked. There has been no decision from the 22 Supreme Court today that is relevant. 23 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, you stated that you reserve 24 the right to change the charge and make changes up through the 25 end of closing arguments. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10019 466MSAT6 1 THE COURT: Right. 2 MR. TIGAR: How is that square with Rule 30(b)? 3 THE COURT: If someone -- 4 MR. TIGAR: I'm not challenging your Honor's authority 5 here. 6 THE COURT: You can argue it out for me. I would 7 expect that at the conclusion of all of the evidence and the 8 conclusion of the charge conference I would have a charge which 9 I thought was the final charge. It is also possible that 10 someone can give something in closing argument that requires a 11 corrective charge. If so, I would give a corrective charge if 12 someone said something that required a corrective charge. 13 MR. TIGAR: I understand your Honor's position. 14 THE COURT: Anything else? 15 I'll give you the current draft and I'll see you all 16 tomorrow at 9:00. Have a good evening. 17 (Adjourned to Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 9:00 a.m.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10020 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 MUHAMMAD MUSLIH 4 Direct By Mr. Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9966 5 Cross By Mr. Barkow . . . . . . . . . . . . 9977 6 Redirect By Mr. Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 9984 7 Recross By Mr. Barkow . . . . . . . . . . . 9986 8 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR 9 Direct By Mr. Fallick . . . . . . . . . . . 9993 10 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS 11 Exhibit No. Received 12 AS-18-T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9974 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300