10021 4C7MSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 7, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10022 4C7MSAT1 1 (Trial resumed) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Everyone ready to bring in the jury? 4 MR. FALLICK: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar, take the stand. 6 Mr. Fallick. 7 Let's bring in the jury. 8 (Jury present) 9 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It is 10 good to see you all, as always. 11 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 12 Mr. Fletcher. 13 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 14 are still under oath. 15 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Yes. 16 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, resumed. 17 DIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd) 18 BY MR. FALLICK: 19 Q. Mr. Sattar, yesterday when we ended the day you were 20 testifying about the Sheikh's sermons that were introduced by 21 the government in this trial. 22 Do you recall that? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. Were the Sheikh's sermons different from his lectures and 25 speeches? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10023 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How so? 3 A. The Sheikh's sermons, he is always addressing one subject 4 and usually it is an event that's happening somewhere or, you 5 know, a current event. His lectures will probably address more 6 of different subjects, historical subjects. And also the 7 lectures tend to be more like lessons in theology more than the 8 sermons. The sermons, he will just go and address one subject. 9 Q. What were the subjects of the Sheikh's speeches and 10 lectures? 11 A. I could say 90 percent of his sermons -- I mean sermons 12 were about Egypt, what's gone on in Egypt, how the government 13 is treating the citizens of Egypt, what the people should do, 14 how the people should react to the treatment by the government. 15 So he was, I would say -- before he comes to the 16 United States or a good period of time of his life he was 17 concentrating mainly on Egypt. 18 Q. Do you believe that someone like yourself hears and 19 interprets the Sheikh's sermons differently than someone like 20 me? 21 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 A. Absolutely. 24 Q. Why is that? 25 A. Well, first of all, you have to be aware of the events SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10024 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 that's taken place. You have to be aware of the circumstances, 2 circumstances that surrounding the sermon. You have to be 3 aware of Arabic language itself. You have to put everything in 4 context. You cannot just take one verse he is talking about or 5 one subject that he is talking about and say, you know, this is 6 what this man is preaching. You cannot just say -- for an 7 example, when I hear the Sheikh saying: Oh, you who believe, 8 do not take the Jews and Christians as your friends, I'll say: 9 Oh, the man is telling you not to take the Jews and Christians 10 as your friends. And I just know as an Arabic-speaking person 11 I laugh and I said: Oh. I cannot take a Jew or Christian as a 12 friend, but I can take her or him as a wife, a father-in-law, a 13 brother-in-law, a sister-in-law. I can get married to a 14 Christian, my brother, who is married to a Jew, and we cannot 15 take these people as friends. So the meaning sometimes get 16 lost in translation. There is certain words that you cannot 17 translate. So you have to put everything in its context and 18 see, you know, when this verse was revealed, how it was 19 revealed, and to whom it is revealed. 20 Q. Getting back to your first dealings with the Sheikh, did 21 there come a time when you became aware that the Sheikh was 22 having some type of legal problem? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And when was that? 25 A. That was -- I believe it was either in December or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10025 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 January -- December '92 or January '93. 2 Q. And what type of problem was the Sheikh having? 3 A. He had some immigration problems. He was facing 4 deportation to Egypt. 5 Q. How did you become aware of that problem? 6 A. There was a flyer that's been given -- I believe he had a 7 court hearing in January 1993 and there were a flyer 8 distributed in mosques around New York urging people to attend 9 this court hearing or show support for him. That's how I 10 became aware of it. 11 Q. What, if anything, did you do in connection with the 12 Sheikh's immigration problem? 13 A. Well, you know, at the beginning I just attend the hearing. 14 And during that hearing I get to know a few people, you know. 15 It was a very high publicized hearing in the media. There were 16 about 2, 300 people out there protesting and showing support 17 for the Sheikh. So I was one of the people there. 18 I was approached by the media or some people from the 19 media to have -- to assist them with having some kind of 20 interview with the Sheikh. I helped them to do that. 21 Q. What was the outcome of the Sheikh's immigration problem? 22 A. Well, the outcome, he was actually -- you know, they ruled 23 against him and they ordered him deported. 24 Q. Other than attending some demonstrations on behalf of the 25 Sheikh's problem, did you also become active in any other way? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10026 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How so? 3 A. You know, I was -- through the '90s or, you know, at the 4 beginning of the '90s, I'd been active in my community. I was 5 elected to the board of directors of my mosque. I was -- I 6 started to get active in the Muslim community there helping 7 people, poor people, charity, charitable work, going out trying 8 to help other Muslims abroad. Like, for an example, in Bosnia, 9 I was part of the people who arranged a conference in 1992 to 10 try to educate the people about what's really going on in 11 Bosnia and atrocities that were committed in Bosnia at the 12 time. 13 I also -- I start to have that role in my community 14 lead me to speak to the media and I became, you know, if you 15 want to call it -- I started to attract the media. 16 Q. What would you speak to the media about? 17 A. I would speak to the media about events here in the United 18 States, events in Egypt, for an example. And then, you know, 19 when I come close to the Sheikh, I spoke about the Sheikh's 20 case and I spoke about his problems, and I tried to introduce 21 him to the media. The Sheikh was -- he was portrayed as a 22 religious fanatic. So I was trying to change this, trying to, 23 through the media, through the power of the media, to show the 24 Sheikh, he is not a religious fanatic. He is also a political 25 leader in Egypt. This man has a cause in Egypt and he needs to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10027 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 address it. 2 Q. Did there ever come a time when you yourself were 3 questioned by the FBI? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. How many times? 6 A. Three times. 7 Q. When was the first time? 8 A. The first time was in August 1992. 9 Q. And what happened? 10 A. I was called by an FBI agent at home, and I was asked if I 11 can come to their office -- 12 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. When you were first questioned by the FBI in 1992, did you 15 speak with an FBI agent? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you meet with an FBI agent? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did anything come as a result of your meeting with the FBI? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What was the second time you were questioned by the FBI? 22 A. It was in September 1992. 23 Q. Again, did you speak with an FBI agent? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. Were you questioned by an FBI agent? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10028 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. And were you questioned by the FBI about a specific 3 individual topic? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did anything result from this interview with the FBI? 6 A. No. 7 Q. When was the last time you were questioned by the FBI? 8 A. That was, in I believe, in April or May 1993. 9 Q. And what happened then? 10 A. Well, I had two FBI agents come to my work with a subpoena, 11 what they call forthwith subpoena. And they had to either to 12 take me -- they wanted to take me to the FBI headquarter, or to 13 apply the subpoena right there and then. And I said -- 14 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Basis? 16 MR. MORVILLO: Hearsay and relevance, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. You can come back to it later. 18 Q. What did the subpoena call for? 19 A. The subpoena called for hand swabbing to see if there is 20 any chemical residues in my hand. 21 Q. Did you submit to that subpoena? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was that at work? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was that at the post office? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10029 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 550 Manor Road. 2 Q. What was the result -- 3 A. Nothing. 4 Q. Did there come a time when you learned that some people had 5 been arrested concerning charges which were labeled a 6 conspiracy to wage a war of urban terrorism? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When was that? 9 A. That was in -- I believe it was in June 1993. 10 Q. And who was arrested? 11 A. There were a bunch of people. There were about 10, 15 12 people arrested. 13 Q. Did you know any of these people? 14 A. I know one of them. 15 Q. Who was that? 16 A. His name was Siddig Ali. 17 Q. How did you know him? 18 A. Siddig Ali, a well-known person in the Muslim community. 19 He used to give speeches in mosques and especially in the 20 American Muslim community because he spoke English very well. 21 So he was very well known. Also, Siddig Ali acted as a 22 translator during the Sheikh's immigration hearing back in 23 January 1993. That's how I knew. 24 Q. Did there also come a time when the Sheikh was arrested in 25 connection with this case? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10030 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall when that was? 3 A. It was -- when the Sheikh was arrested it was -- at first 4 it was not in connection with this case. The Sheikh was 5 arrested in connection with his immigration hearing. He was 6 out on bond. And they took his bond away and they arrested him 7 in July -- July 2, 1993. 8 Q. Did he eventually become arrested in connection with the 9 conspiracy to wage a war of urban terrorism? 10 A. Yes. They indicted him a month and a half later, in 11 August, at the end of August. 12 Q. Were you present when the Sheikh was arrested in connection 13 with that case? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What happened? What do you recall happening when he was 16 arrested? 17 A. I remember hearing that there was a warrant out for his 18 arrest and I know the Sheikh was at our mosque that day. So I 19 drove to the mosque, I went there, I told him that there is a 20 warrant for his arrest. He called his lawyer, Barbara Nelson, 21 his immigration lawyer, and they tried to work from there. 22 Q. After the Sheikh's arrest did you make any statements to 23 the media about it? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10031 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 MR. FALLICK: May I have a moment, your Honor? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 Q. What did you say to the media? 4 A. I really don't remember the exact words that I said. 5 Q. Do you recall reading the indictment in this case? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do you recall that in the indictment in paragraph 12 it 8 says that on or about July 4, 1993, you spoke to the media 9 regarding Abdel Rahman's arrest and stated that "we haven't 10 decided the time or place, but our Muslim community will 11 definitely demonstrate its outrage at the arrest of the Sheikh 12 and that if anything happens to the Sheikh, we will hold the 13 American administration responsible. Something very bad could 14 happen." 15 Did you make that statement? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. What did you mean by that statement? 18 A. When I said that we have not, the Muslim community, I meant 19 as a Muslim community in the United States, we have not decided 20 where to demonstrate, where to protest the arrest of the 21 Sheikh. The Sheikh was a Muslim scholar, had so many people 22 who attended his lectures and his sermons and, you know, 23 attracted so many Muslims around him. So it was -- we will 24 protest peacefully like any other group of people here to his 25 arrest. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10032 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 The other thing, when I said, if anything happened to 2 the Sheikh, we will hold the American government responsible, 3 this was an immigration case. The Sheikh was threatened that 4 he will be deported to Egypt. If the Sheikh goes to Egypt the 5 Sheikh will be killed right on the spot. The Sheikh will never 6 have his day in court again. So I was at the time also -- in 7 1993, there was basically a war going on in Egypt between the 8 Islamic Group and the Egyptian government. I could have not 9 predicted -- I was just like a warner. I am warning saying 10 that something could happen there, something bad will happen, 11 from reading the circumstances that surrounding what's going on 12 here and there. And if the Sheikh goes to Egypt, the reaction 13 will be bad. People will not understand that the Sheikh had, 14 you know, a fair court proceeding here. All they will 15 understand is that the American government sent the Sheikh to 16 Egypt. This is what I meant by that statement. 17 Q. Do you recall what the Sheikh was charged with in 18 connection with his criminal case? 19 A. I know he was charged with five charges. I don't remember 20 every one of them. I know one of them was conspiracy to wage 21 urban warfare against the United States, I believe solicitation 22 of violence, conspiracy -- there was so many conspiracies, 23 about four or five of them. 24 Q. Did the Sheikh have lawyers who represented him in his 25 criminal case? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10033 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who were they? 3 A. At first -- his first lawyer was Bill Kuntsler. And then 4 Bill Kuntsler was thrown out of the case and then, you know, 5 the Sheikh represented himself with the aid of a legal -- 6 another lawyer. He had him as a legal advisor. His name was 7 Emmanuel Moore. 8 Q. After Mr. Moore? 9 A. I'm sorry? 10 Q. After Mr. Moore? 11 A. After Mr. Moore was Ramsey Clark, Lynne Stewart, Abdeen 12 Jabara. That was in like 1994, early 1994, actually. 13 Q. Did you know Mr. Clark prior to his representation of the 14 Sheikh? 15 A. Personally, no. But I heard of him. 16 Q. Did you know of his reputation? 17 A. Oh, yes, absolutely. 18 Q. How did you know of his reputation? 19 A. I know -- Mr. Ramsey Clark was very well known to begin 20 with in the Arab world. Also, you know, I know that he was a 21 former Attorney General here. 22 Q. Did you know Ms. Stewart prior to her representation of the 23 Sheikh? 24 A. No, I did not know her personally. 25 Q. When did you first meet her? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10034 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. I first met her in 19 -- November, I believe, or December 2 1994. 3 Q. Did you know of her reputation prior to first meeting her? 4 A. Sure, I did. 5 Q. How did you know that? 6 A. Ms. Stewart is a very famous lawyer. Actually, she was 7 named one of the top ten lawyers in the United States. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 A. So I know about her. I knew she was a civil right 11 attorney. I know that she was dedicated attorney. Reading 12 about her in the newspapers, hearing about her from other 13 attorneys, I know she was a great defense lawyer. 14 Q. Did the Sheikh speak English? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did he have translators who assisted him? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who were they? 19 A. Well, it was a few people. 20 Q. And who were they? 21 A. I was one of them, Mohammed Yousry was actually the main 22 translator. They had Nabil Elmasry, Nasser Ahmed. 23 Q. Slow down when you speak. 24 A. I'm sorry. 25 Q. Did you know Mr. Yousry prior to the Sheikh's case? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10035 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. No. 2 THE COURT: By the way, the questions with respect to 3 what the witness heard, understood with respect to reputation 4 are admitted for his understanding, state of mind, for 5 Mr. Sattar's understanding and state of mind. 6 Go ahead. 7 Q. When was the first time that you met Mr. Yousry? 8 A. I'm not quite sure. It was in '94 or '95. It was around 9 this time, late '94, early '95. 10 Q. Did you yourself have a role in the Sheikh's defense of his 11 criminal charges? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What role was that? 14 A. I was appointed as an interpreter and a paralegal. 15 Q. When did you begin to work as a paralegal? 16 A. Officially or -- 17 Q. Officially. 18 A. Officially, was in December 1993. 19 Q. Unofficially? 20 A. Unofficially, since the Sheikh was arrested I was helping, 21 you know, his lawyers. 22 Q. Who, if anyone, asked you to become one of the Sheikh's 23 paralegals? 24 A. First was Bill Kuntsler asked me to help, seek my help, and 25 then after Bill Kuntsler left the case, Emmanuel Moore made it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10036 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 officially through the courts. 2 Q. After Mr. Moore did you continue to work with the other 3 attorneys who represented the Sheikh? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Moore have to get approval for 6 you to work as one of the Sheikh's paralegals? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know who he had to get approval from? 9 A. He had to get approval from the judge who was sitting on 10 the case. 11 Q. Who was that judge? 12 A. It was Judge Michael Mukasey. 13 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, at this time may I display 14 to the jury Defendant's Exhibit AS-8 in evidence? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you see on your screen AS-8 in evidence? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know what that document is? 19 A. Yes. It is Judge Mukasey's order to appoint me as an 20 interpreter. 21 Q. And the order says that -- 22 THE COURT: Could I just stop you for a moment. You 23 say AS-8 was received in evidence? 24 MR. FALLICK: Yes, your Honor. 25 Q. The order says: By letter dated December 15, 1993 from SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10037 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Emmanuel A. Moore, Esq., defendant Omar Ahmed Ali Abdel Rahman 2 has applied for appointment and compensation of three Arabic 3 language interpreters -- Nasser Ahmed, Mohammed Nabil Elmasry, 4 and Ahmed Abdel Sattar -- to assist him in reviewing the tapes 5 and transcripts produced as part of the discovery in this case. 6 Who is Mr. Ahmed? Who is Nasser Ahmed? 7 A. Nasser Ahmed is another fellow Muslim who was part of our 8 mosque in Brooklyn, and he was close to the Sheikh. 9 Q. Who is Mohammed Nabil Elmasry? 10 A. He is another person from Toms River, New Jersey. He was 11 also close to the Sheikh. 12 Q. Now, this order was dated January 23, 1994, is that 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It was signed by Judge Michael B. Mukasey? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you have an understanding why you and the other two 18 gentlemen were asked to be paralegals to help in the Sheikh's 19 defense? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What is your understanding? 22 A. My understanding was that we know the Sheikh. The Sheikh 23 could trust us. He felt comfortable, comfortable around us. 24 That the lawyers -- I'm sorry. Just give me a second. 25 Q. That's all right. Take your time. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10038 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Bill Kuntsler at the time, I know Bill Kuntsler from 2 previous -- I dealt with him previously. So I also had some 3 kind of relationship with Bill Kuntsler. Another thing was, 4 people were at this time, when the Sheikh was arrested, people 5 were scared to come forward. Nobody wanted to be around him. 6 So you could not find many people that wants to work 7 this case, especially after he was arrested in a very high 8 publicized scene. For all these reasons, I was right there. 9 Q. Were you compensated for your work as a paralegal? 10 A. Yes, I was. 11 Q. And was that your compensation approved by Judge Mukasey? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. FALLICK: Again, your Honor, may I display to the 14 jury AS-8 in evidence? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Let me refer you -- Mr. Sattar, I'll read to you the 17 sentence: Accordingly, the three persons named above may 18 submit vouchers under the Criminal Justice Act and will be 19 compensated at an appropriate rate as requested by counsel. 20 How much were you paid as a paralegal? 21 A. I was paid $35 per hour. 22 Q. Who set that rate? 23 A. I believe Judge Mukasey. 24 Q. And who approved your payment? 25 A. Well, my payment has to be approved by one of the lawyers SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10039 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 first, and then it will go to the judge, that he will look at 2 it. And if he feels like taking anything off and say, this is 3 too much or anything like that, he will -- he has to sign it, 4 too. 5 Q. Did you have to submit time sheets and vouchers? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, at this time may I display 8 to the jury the cover page of Government Exhibit 2072 in 9 evidence? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recognize this document? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And was this part of an exhibit introduced by the 14 government? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what was the exhibit introduced by the government? 17 A. This was my time sheet. 18 Q. And how did it work with your time sheets? 19 A. How did I -- 20 Q. How did you work with your time sheets? 21 A. I had this time sheet. Anything that I did on behalf of 22 the Sheikh or, you know, in the case, I wrote it down, I wrote 23 the date, how many hours did I work. And at the end of the 24 time sheet I calculated the hours. And I submitted to -- it 25 was a form that you get from court and you give to the lawyer. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10040 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 And she will sign it and we will send it to the judge. 2 Q. Where did Government Exhibit 2072 come from? 3 A. It was in my file cabinet at home. 4 Q. Was that seized by the government during the search of your 5 apartment? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When did the Sheikh's trial begin? 8 A. It began in January 1995. 9 Q. Now, prior to the start of the trial, what did you do as a 10 paralegal? 11 A. I did so many things. I listened to tapes, mainly they 12 were so many things in Arabic, so many tapes in English also. 13 I listened to the tapes. I briefed the lawyers on what's on 14 these tapes. I translated some of those tapes and then I 15 recorded on other tapes for the Sheikh to listen to because he 16 cannot read. 17 I went out there, spoke to potential witnesses, 18 coordinate between the lawyers and people that we think that 19 they might be able to help in the case. I met with the lawyers 20 regularly. I went and I visited the Sheikh two times a week. 21 I read newspapers for him on the phone. If I'm not visiting 22 him, he will call me and I will brief him and read newspapers 23 for him at least two times a week. 24 Q. Where was the Sheikh? 25 A. He was at Metropolitan Correctional Center, MCC. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10041 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Is the MCC right next door? 2 A. Yes. 150 Park Row. Right behind us right here. 3 Q. For what you did as a paralegal, did you have to get one of 4 the lawyer's approval? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. How many hours per week did you work as a paralegal? 7 A. I used to visit the Sheikh, spend many hours with him every 8 week. Beside the translation work and other work that I did, 9 at least 20, 30, maybe more. 10 Q. Were you still working at the post office? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How many hours a week were you working at the post office? 13 A. 40. 14 Q. Did you attend the trial? 15 A. On Mondays and Tuesdays, yes. My days off from the post 16 office. 17 Q. Did you have a role during the Sheikh's trial? 18 A. Did I have a role during the Sheikh's trial, yes. 19 Q. What was that role? 20 A. The role was my role as a paralegal. I continued. 21 Q. Did the jury reach a verdict in the Sheikh's case? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recall when that was? 24 A. That was October 2, 1995. 25 Q. What was the verdict? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10042 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Guilty on all charges. 2 Q. And do you recall when he was sentenced? 3 A. He was sentenced in January 1996. 4 Q. And what was he sentenced to? 5 A. Life, plus 65 years in prison. 6 Q. Before the Sheikh's trial, did you read newspapers? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did you read newspapers regularly? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Which ones? 11 A. I read Arabic newspapers, I read English newspapers. 12 Q. During the Sheikh's trial did you continue to read 13 newspapers? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. Regularly? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And which newspapers? 18 A. Same newspapers, Arabic. 19 Q. Which Arabic newspapers? 20 A. Any Arabic newspaper that I could get my hand on, Al-Hayat, 21 Asharq Al-Awsat, Al-Quds. 22 Q. Which American newspapers did you read regularly? 23 A. The New York Times, the Daily News, New York Newsday, 24 sometimes the Post, which I don't care much for it. 25 Q. After the Sheikh's trial, did you continue to read SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10043 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 newspapers regularly? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. Same newspapers? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Before and during and after the Sheikh's trial, did you 6 clip and collect newspaper articles? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. About what were these clippings? 9 A. About anything and everything that I thought that the 10 Sheikh might be interested in. 11 Q. Did you read these articles to the Sheikh? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were some of the articles that you clipped and collected 14 contained in various exhibits introduced by the government at 15 this trial? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Where did you keep these newspaper articles? 18 A. Well, I have to explain this to you here. I have a very 19 bad habit, clipping newspapers. I'm a smoker, too. I try to 20 stay away from the kids when I smoke. When I receive the 21 Sheikh's telephone calls, I used to sit in the kitchen away 22 from everybody and smoke, read the newspapers for him. 23 And then after I finish, I just leave everything there 24 on the table. My wife, she will just, you know, clean up. She 25 will collect those newspapers. She doesn't know which is which SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10044 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 and she is going to just put it in the file cabinet or in my 2 briefcase or anywhere that she can stuff a newspaper at. 3 Basically, I had newspapers everywhere or articles from 4 newspapers everywhere. 5 Q. To your knowledge, did the government seize all of your 6 newspaper clippings? 7 A. I am not sure what they seized or what they did not seize. 8 I know they seized a lot of it. 9 Q. Did you have anything in your apartment relating to the 10 Sheikh's case? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what did you have? 13 A. I had most of the work material that I was working on 14 during the case, transcripts, audiotapes, videotapes, books, 15 newspaper articles, things that actually were seized from the 16 Sheikh's home, which, you know, I wind up taking it and keeping 17 it in my apartment, even, you know -- so I have a lot of 18 material. 19 Q. What was seized from the Sheikh's apartment that you kept 20 in your apartment? 21 A. Audiotapes, books, booklets. So many various kind of 22 books. Mainly Islam books and books about the Islamic Group 23 and books that have been published by the Islamic Group. 24 Actually, I had a volume of a magazine also called -- that was 25 taken from his home and wind up in my apartment or in my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10045 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 garage, actually. 2 Q. What type of audiotapes did you have in either your 3 apartment or garage? 4 A. I had -- you mean related to the Sheikh's case or just in 5 general? 6 Q. Just in general. 7 A. Just in general, I had -- I don't want to exaggerate and 8 say thousands of audiotapes. 9 Q. Concerning what? 10 A. Mainly religion, sermons, lectures, and lessons. 11 Q. Why did you have them? 12 A. Well, as I told you before, I was on the board of directors 13 of my mosque from 1992 until 1997. Starting in 1995, we had a 14 conflict, an inside conflict in the mosque where we were -- 15 people wanted us -- wanted this board of directors out of the 16 mosque, and literally they took over the mosque. The mosque 17 had an audiotape library which some of the people said that 18 they were going to throw it out, they were going to get rid of 19 it. I felt this was a collection of the mosque. The mosque 20 had been established since 1978. So I felt like this will be a 21 loss, a huge loss to that mosque or to the Islamic community in 22 general. I took the whole collection, I put it in my garage. 23 Some of it, you know I took, I listened to it and there were 24 hundreds upon hundreds of audiotapes. 25 Q. Do you also have in your garage tapes of the Sheikh's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10046 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 sermon and speeches and lectures? 2 A. Yes. I did have a lot of the Sheikh's sermon and lecture. 3 Q. How did you get those? 4 A. Most of the tapes that I wind up with were actually from 5 the government case against him in 1993. I also had some stuff 6 related to the Sheikh's case. I had some boxes of legal 7 material that belonged to one of the codefendant of the case in 8 the same case with the Sheikh. His name was Victor Alvarez. 9 Q. Why did you have his material? 10 A. Victor Alvarez is a Puerto Rican. He was a convert to 11 Islam, having to have nobody, no relatives, nobody whatsoever. 12 When he was sentenced -- after his conviction, he had nobody to 13 send his legal material to, so he mailed it to me, and it was 14 in my garage until, I think, the government seized it. 15 Q. Do you also have in your apartment a copy of the Special 16 Administrative Measure regulations? 17 A. I believe I have a few copies, yes. 18 Q. And were those seized by the government and introduced in 19 evidence? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. When did you receive copies of these Special Administrative 22 Measures? 23 A. I couldn't hear you. I'm sorry, Mr. Fallick. 24 Q. When did you receive copies of the Special Administrative 25 Measures regulations? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10047 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. I believe in '97, '98. I am not quite sure of the date. 2 Q. Do you recall who gave them to you? 3 A. I got it through the lawyers. 4 Q. Do you recall which lawyers? 5 A. In particular, no. I think maybe Ramsey Clark, Jabara, or 6 Lynne Stewart. I am not quite sure who. 7 Q. Did you read them when they were sent to you? 8 A. Did I read them? I cannot say that I read them, you know, 9 word for word, because I was already -- I knew -- I was briefed 10 to what's in it, and I went through it. But, actually, I 11 cannot recall that I read them word for word. 12 Q. Did you know they prohibited you from visiting the Sheikh? 13 A. Did I know they prohibited me per se? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. No. They prohibited every human being from visiting him 16 except four people. 17 Q. Who were those four people? 18 A. Ramsey Clark, Abdeen Jabara, Lynne Stewart, and Mohammed 19 Yousry. I'm sorry. Let me say five. And his wife. One of 20 his wives. 21 Q. Did anyone ever ask you to sign a SAMs affidavit? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you ever sign a SAMs affidavit? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you know if the SAMs regulations changed over time? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10048 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. I know that they were sending new SAMs, but I don't know if 2 it was changed. I know it was just -- I am not sure about 3 that, that I know it was changed. 4 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, before I begin on a new 5 area, can we have a five-minutes recess? 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 Ladies and gentlemen, we will take a five-minute 8 break. Please, please remember my continuing instructions. 9 Don't talk about the case at all. Always remember to keep an 10 open mind. 11 Could you hold on just one moment while I get 12 Mr. Fletcher. Thank you. 13 All rise, please, and the jury can follow Mr. Fletcher 14 to the jury room. 15 (Jury not present) 16 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. Please be 17 seated. 18 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I am just trying to ask for 19 a break every 50 minutes or so, if that's all right. 20 THE COURT: That's fine. 21 I had overruled an objection with respect to the 22 reputation, but I took it that it was being offered for the 23 effect on the witness's -- 24 MR. FALLICK: That's correct. 25 THE COURT: See you shortly. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10049 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 (Recess) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar -- 3 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, Ms. Stewart is not here. 4 THE COURT: Thank you. Of course, we will wait. 5 MR. TIGAR: Ms. Stewart has arrived. 6 THE COURT: When the jurors were coming in this 7 morning one juror said something to one of the other jurors as 8 they were about to go up the stairs. I don't know what it was, 9 but I point those things out to you. 10 Everyone is here. Let's bring in the jury. 11 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I just approach Mr. 12 Morvillo for a second? 13 THE COURT: Sure. 14 (Jury present) 15 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 16 Mr. Fletcher. 17 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're 18 still under oath. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 21 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 22 BY MR. FALLICK: 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, you recall testifying right before we took a 24 break about the newspaper articles that you clipped and 25 collected? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10050 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall testifying that you read many of these 3 articles to the Sheikh? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you recall also testifying that some of these articles 6 had to do with the Islamic Group? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Where did the articles about the Islamic Group come from? 9 A. Same newspapers that I read. Some articles I clipped 10 myself, some articles that were faxed to me by Jabara or 11 Mr. Clark if it is an English article, but most of the Arabic 12 articles, they were clipped by me. 13 Q. When did you first become aware of the Islamic Group? 14 A. This is a very tricky. Growing up in Egypt I was aware of 15 the Islamic groups in plural terms. This is how everybody was 16 referring to the Islamists or the Islamic trend at the time. 17 They were calling them the Islamic groups. There was no 18 particular Islamic Group. Until I came to America I was not 19 aware of the Islamic Group. I was still under the impression 20 there is Islamic groups. They have different names. They 21 have -- anybody who had a beard or wearing the traditional 22 garment that the Islamists wear in Egypt, they were calling 23 them the Islamic groups. 24 I became aware of that Group itself in the '90s, 25 around -- after I met the Sheikh and around the Sheikh's trial. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10051 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 I got to know a great deal about it during the Sheikh's trial. 2 Q. How did you learn a great deal about the Islamic Group? 3 A. Reading some of the material that were introduced in the 4 Sheikh's trial, reading some of the material that were taken 5 from the Sheikh's home, like the magazine that the Islamic 6 Group were publishing at the time. Some books that were -- 7 spoke about the Islamic Group in particular and the Sadat case. 8 And I start to be aware or become aware that there is a certain 9 group called the Islamic Group. I also -- I had in my 10 possession that I took from the Sheikh's apartment was the 11 Islamic Group charter. So by this time, 1993, 1994, I had a 12 great deal of information about the Islamic Group. 13 Q. What did you know about it? 14 A. I know it is a Muslim group that were formed in mid '70. 15 It started on the college campuses in Egypt. Their goal is to 16 preach Islam and to convert the society from a secular society 17 to an Islamic society. And the ultimate goal is to have an 18 Islamic government in place, not a theocratic government. An 19 Islamic government. 20 Q. Did you learn that the Islamic Group had committed acts of 21 violence? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. Do you know that they had committed murders? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you yourself support the goals of the Islamic Group? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10052 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. I cannot say I support every goal of the Islamic Group. I 2 yearn to see as a Muslim, a devout Muslim, to see an Islamic 3 state in Egypt. I yearn to see Islam. Islam to us as Muslims, 4 not just a religion. It's a way of life. As a devout Muslim, 5 I would like to see an Islamic state and a Muslim society. 6 Q. When you say that Islam is a way of life, what do you mean 7 by that? 8 A. Everything that we do as Muslims in our life is according 9 to Islam. The way I dress as a Muslim man, there is a certain 10 way to dress, there is certain things you're not supposed to 11 show in public. There is certain parts of your body nobody 12 supposed to see it except your wife. The food that you eat. 13 Even if you are accused of a crime, you should be treated in a 14 certain way. We say, you know, everything that we do in our 15 life, even going to the bathroom, I go to the bathroom 16 according to Islam. There are things that I have to say or I 17 have to do. 18 Q. As a devout Muslim -- 19 A. I'm sorry? 20 Q. As a devout Muslim, were you permitted to smoke? 21 A. No. I'm a sinner on this. 22 Q. Do you know if the Sheikh had any connection with the 23 Islamic Group? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. What was that connection? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10053 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. The Sheikh is the spiritual leader or the emir of the 2 Islamic Group. 3 Q. How did you learn that? 4 A. I learned that through his trial, some of the books that 5 were seized from him, some of the newspapers that I read. 6 Q. Did the Sheikh ever talk to you about the Islamic Group? 7 A. I don't understand that question. What do you mean by ever 8 talk to me about the Islamic Group? 9 Q. Did he ever discuss the Islamic Group's goals with you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did he ever discuss anything about the Islamic Group with 12 you? 13 A. I can't say, you know -- I mean, I will ask him questions, 14 you know, when I used to go and see him. Things will come to 15 my mind and I will ask him, and I wanted to know the history. 16 I wanted to know about those people. I wanted to know things, 17 what led to the confrontation first in the '80s, and then there 18 was a period of calm from the mid '80s to the '90s and what led 19 to confrontation again in the '90s. So I used to ask these 20 kind of questions just, you know, for my own, I want to know. 21 Q. Were you a member of the Islamic Group? 22 A. I was never a member of any group. 23 Q. Did anyone ever ask you to become a member of the Islamic 24 Group? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10054 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Did there come a time that you received a power of attorney 2 from the Sheikh? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And when was that? 5 A. I am not sure. 1988 -- I mean, 1998, 1999. I am not quite 6 sure. 7 Q. And how did you get it? 8 A. I got it through the lawyer. 9 Q. Do you remember which lawyer? 10 A. I think it is Lynne Stewart. 11 Q. And you recall what the power of attorney authorized you to 12 do? 13 A. The power of attorney authorized me to do some business 14 actions and transactions on behalf of the Sheikh. If he has 15 any dealing outside that I could represent him and, you know, 16 sign for him, things like this. 17 Q. Did there come a time that you also received the Sheikh's 18 will? 19 A. Which will? 20 Q. How many wills were there? 21 A. He has three wills that I know of. 22 Q. Did you receive copies of each of those wills? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. When did you receive the first will? 25 A. The first will I seen it was 1993, before his arrest. It SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10055 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 was addressed -- it was addressed to the Egyptian people. This 2 is my will, this is what I would like to see in Egypt and, you 3 know, urging the people, you know, to rise up. That was his 4 first will. 5 Q. Do you still have a copy of that will? 6 A. I -- yes, I did. I think it was seized by the government, 7 too. 8 Q. Was there a second will? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you have a copy of the second will? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. How did you receive that copy? 13 A. The second will was an audiotape before they applied the 14 SAM on him. I believe it was in 1997, April or March 1997. 15 The Sheikh appointed me and Nabil Elmasry to, if he dies, to 16 take care of his body Islamically and shipped his body to Egypt 17 to be buried in Egypt, and to take care of his children. If he 18 want to get married, he need help. It was mainly in that 19 aspect. 20 I got through a phone conversation -- 21 Q. A phone conversation between whom? 22 A. It was a three-way calling between me, him, and Mr. Clark. 23 Q. Who is him? 24 A. The Sheikh and Ramsey Clark. 25 Q. Did you record that conversation? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10056 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I approach Mr. Sattar 3 and show him AS-9 in evidence? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. FALLICK: Thank you. 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you have AS-9 in evidence before you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know what that is? 9 A. Yes. It is an audiotape. 10 Q. An audiotape of what? 11 A. Of the Sheikh's will. 12 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I again approach 13 Mr. Sattar and show him Exhibits AS-10 and AS-10-T in evidence? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. FALLICK: May I ask the question from here, your 16 Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, what is AS-10 in evidence? 19 A. AS-10 in evidence is an Arabic transcript of what's in this 20 tape. 21 Q. And what is AS-10-T? 22 THE COURT: Before you answer that question, you said 23 on this tape. Is that referring to AS-9? 24 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Yes. 25 Q. What is AS-10T? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10057 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. It is a translation of the transcript that you just showed 2 me, AS-10. 3 Q. Those are both transcripts of the conversation that's AS-9? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I publish to the jury 6 AS-10-T in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may Mr. Sattar and I read 9 this transcript to the jury? I will read the parts of Sheikh 10 Omar Rahman. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. FALLICK: Thank you. 13 This is a conversation that was dated March 4, 1997, 14 unknown time, between Mr. Sattar and Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, please read your attributions and I'll read the 16 Sheikh's. 17 (At this point, Defendant's Exhibit AS-10-T in 18 evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 19 Q. Mr. Sattar, was that the Sheikh's second will? 20 A. Yes, it was. 21 Q. Was there a third will? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And did you have a copy of the third will? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. And how did you receive a copy of the third will? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10058 4C7MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. How did you receive it? 3 A. How did I? 4 Q. How did you get it? 5 A. I got it through Mr. Clark. I was at Mr. Clark's office 6 and he give me a copy. A few pages written in Arabic to read 7 and to translate for him and this is how I got it. 8 Q. Do you know how Mr. Clark got a copy of this will? 9 A. It was faxed to his office by CNN. 10 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display a portion to 11 Mr. Sattar of Government Exhibit 2057 in evidence? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10059 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 BY MR. FALLICK: 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recognize what is Government Exhibit 3 2057? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What is that? 6 A. This is one page of that document that I took from 7 Mr. Clark. 8 Q. Let me show you another page. Do you see on the top it 9 says 09 98 13:09 FF CNN special assignment? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And it says to: 912129791583? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know what that number is? 14 A. This number is Mr. Clark's fax. 15 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 16 and to Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 2057-T, in evidence? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you know what Government Exhibit 2057-T is? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What is it? 21 A. It's a translation of that document that you just showed 22 me. 23 Q. Did you read the document? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. Where did you keep it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10060 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Where did I keep it? It was in my home. I'm not quite 2 sure where exactly but it was probably in my file cabinet. 3 Q. Did you discuss it with anyone? 4 A. I did. 5 Q. Who did you discuss it with? 6 A. I discussed it when I first seen it with Mr. Clark. 7 Q. And what did you discuss with him? 8 A. Well, it was, as I told you and I told him what's in it and 9 it was, we were discussing how should we respond to it, should 10 we -- 11 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 Q. Other than discussing it with Mr. Clark, did you discuss it 14 with anyone? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever do anything about this will? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know if anyone ever did anything about this will? 19 A. I don't. 20 Q. What is your understanding of this will? 21 A. My understanding of this will is words of an angry man, a 22 man who has been in solitary confinement for so many years who 23 is cut from the world, who is angry at everybody, everything 24 that's been done to him. He thinks that he -- or he said that 25 he is unjustly convicted, cut off from totally everything and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10061 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 this is his way of expressing his anger, his frustration, his 2 total outrage. 3 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display the last page 4 of 2057-T, in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, you have seen the last page of this document? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. And was this document read to the jury during the 9 government's case? 10 A. Yes, it was. 11 Q. And this says: 12 Oh Muslims everywhere, destroy their nation. Tear 13 them apart, ruin their economy, burn their companies, blunder 14 their interests, sink their boats, bring down their airplanes, 15 slaughter them on land, sea and air. [God said] "slay [the 16 pagans] wherever ye find them and seize them. Belegal them and 17 lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Fight those 18 infidels." And let them find firmness in you." "Fight them, 19 and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with 20 shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of 21 believers and still the indignation of their hearts." 22 Your brother, Omar Abdel Rahman from inside the United 23 States prisons. 24 Do you have an understanding what the Sheikh was 25 referring to in that passage? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10062 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And what was your understanding? 3 A. My understanding, he is saying if I die in an American 4 prison or this is, you know -- I want you to revenge, I want 5 you to do all those things that we just heard. 6 This was my understanding. 7 Q. What was your reaction when you read that? 8 A. I was sad. I had a mix of feeling. Sad because this man 9 has reached that stage that he is so outraged, I was afraid 10 that this is, what the Sheikh is saying right there, it's going 11 to diminish his reputation. It's going to put him in a very 12 bad light not only in the United States but outside the United 13 States as well. 14 Q. Did you ever do anything with this statement? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever send it to anyone? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you ever discuss it with anyone other than Mr. Clark? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Were you asked at various times to give interviews about 21 the Sheikh? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And who asked you for those interviews? 24 A. Who? 25 Q. Who. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10063 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Many people. I had interviews with the New York Times. I 2 had interviews with Al-Hayat newspaper, Asharq Al-Awsat, 3 Al-Quds, the daily news. CNN. ABC. PBS. 4 I mean, I can just keep going and going. I mean, I 5 had so many interviews that I -- I could not -- I cannot 6 remember them all. 7 Q. Do you know why they asked you for these interviews? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is your understanding of why they asked you to give 10 these interviews? 11 A. I was very well known in my community first of all. I have 12 been an activist in my community for so many years already. I 13 was close to the Sheikh. I was -- I did not try to express my 14 opinion. 15 I believe it is the best way -- I believe in what we 16 call the magic or the wonders that the media can do and I took 17 every opportunity to speak to the media and to express -- if 18 you have a cause or if you have something that you need to 19 educate the people or to teach the people about, go to the 20 media -- the honest media -- and they will present it to you. 21 So, I think I was Americanized that, you know, I just, 22 you know, I was taking an opportunity like every other citizen 23 in this country to speak his mind and express his opinion. 24 Q. Do you recall giving an interview on a PBS television 25 program called Frontline in 1999? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10064 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. And do you recall being asked to describe your relationship 3 with the Sheikh? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And do you recall what your answer was? 6 A. I believe I do. 7 Q. What was your answer? 8 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Hearsay? 10 MR. MORVILLO: Yes. 11 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, this goes to Mr. Sattar's 12 state of mind concerning his relationship to the Sheikh and 13 what he believed or disbelieved. 14 THE COURT: I will allow it with respect to his then 15 existing state of mind. 16 BY MR. FALLICK: 17 Q. Do you recall what your answer was? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. What was your answer? 20 A. I said he is my father, my mentor, my imam, my preacher, my 21 friend, my associate. 22 Q. What did you mean by your answer? 23 A. First, let me explain to you what was going on there. 24 When Mr. Bergman -- 25 Q. Are you talking about what's going on in the interview? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10065 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. In the interview. 2 Q. Go ahead. 3 A. That interview, first of all, was not about the Sheikh. It 4 was about something totally different and that question was 5 like a surprise to me. And the way that I interpreted 6 Mr. Bergman's questions to me, I took it that he was saying 7 that he asked me, now we talk about your friend and associate, 8 the blind Sheikh. 9 And I thought that he was talking into a sarcastic way 10 at this so I fired back at him. I said no, no. He is not 11 my -- he is not just my friend and my associate, he is my 12 father, my mentor, my -- so I just kept going. 13 This is what I meant when I was saying all those 14 things about the Sheikh. 15 Q. Did you mean what you said about the Sheikh? 16 A. Yes. I did mean a lot of what I said. I did have 17 tremendous respect and admiration for the man. 18 Q. What is it about the Sheikh that you admired? 19 A. I admired his history. I admired him standing up and 20 saying whatever, you know, that's on his mind, especially in 21 Egypt at the time when nobody is able to stand. If you raise 22 your head your head will be cut off. Omar Abdel Rahman stood 23 up to a tyrant government in Egypt. Omar Abdel Rahman has 24 spoke his mind. Omar Abdel Rahman defended the defenseless in 25 Egypt. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10066 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Omar Abdel -- I admired all of this about him. Has 2 was handicapped and under Islamic law he is not required to do 3 anything. The man graduated from the most prestigious 4 university in the Islamic world. He became a professor. He 5 could have stayed there and teach. He could have become -- he 6 could have made a lot of money in his position. He refused to 7 do that. He stood up. This is what I admired about Sheikh 8 Omar Abdel Rahman. 9 Q. Was there anything about Sheikh Rahman that you did not 10 admire? 11 A. I cannot say that there is something, things that I cannot 12 admire, but I could say there are things that I disagreed with 13 the Sheikh on. 14 Q. What did you do? What did you disagree with him about? 15 A. Many things. 16 Q. Such as? 17 A. Such as, you know, we can -- if we can go from political 18 parties to -- 19 Q. We will get to that. 20 A. -- to democracy, to his view on polygamy, his view on the 21 confrontation in Egypt that was taking place in Egypt, and the 22 attacks on tourism. 23 There is so many things that, you know, I disagreed. 24 One more thing, his view on smoking too. 25 Q. Did the Sheikh know of your disagreements with him? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10067 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Oh, yes. 2 Q. And what was his reaction? 3 A. I was always called that -- you know, you represent the 4 liberal trend so I was called liberal. 5 Q. Did you believe that everything that the Sheikh said was 6 true? 7 A. No. There is nobody -- first of all, let me just explain 8 one thing here. 9 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman is a man subject to errors. 10 There is nobody, in my opinion, that speaks the truth or the 11 ultimate truth in Islam except Prophet Mohammed, may peace, 12 blessing and mercy be upon him. Nobody else. 13 Omar Abdel Rahman could make mistakes. 14 Q. Were you a follower of the Sheikh? 15 A. I am a follower of Islam. I am a follower of the Prophet 16 Mohammed. 17 Q. Did there come a time that the Sheikh was moved from the 18 MCC? 19 A. Moved? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. When was that? 23 A. That was right after the same day, I believe the verdict 24 came out in October. 25 Q. And after he was moved, do you know where he went? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10068 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Springfield, Missouri. 2 Q. During the Sheikh's trial and after his trial, did you 3 continue to work at the post office? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Did your responsibilities change in any way? 6 A. No. I was doing the same thing going everywhere I went, 7 JFK, the Navy base. Everywhere. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 Q. Other than the Sheikh's case, did you become involved in 11 any other cases? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Whose case? 14 A. My friend Nasser Ahmed. 15 Q. And what was his relationship with you? 16 A. Nasser was my friend before the Sheikh's case. And when 17 the Sheikh's case came in, you know, we worked together. He 18 was -- his name was on that document in all that, that was 19 signed by Judge Mukasey, so I had a good relationship with him. 20 Q. And what was his case about? 21 A. His case was mainly an immigration case. He was facing 22 deportation. 23 Q. Was he represented by counsel? 24 A. Yes, he was. 25 Q. Who represented him? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10069 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Lynne, Ramsey -- I mean Lynne Stewart, Ramsey Clark, Abdeen 2 Jabara, professor David Cole, and I believe Lois Bougrat, 3 B-O-U-G-R-A-T, I believe -- phonetic. 4 Q. In terms of involvement with Nasser Ahmed's case, what, if 5 anything, did do you? 6 A. Nasser Ahmed's case was, I took it personal. 7 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. Relevance. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 Go ahead. 10 THE WITNESS: I took Nasser's -- 11 THE COURT: But restate the question. 12 BY MR. FALLICK: 13 Q. In terms of your involvement in Nasser Ahmed's case, did 14 you have any role? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What role did you have? 17 A. I did so many things in his case. I was -- I helped to 18 gather public support for him. I helped to -- I spoke to the 19 media on his behalf. I collected material to help, you know, 20 to defending him and show that the allegation, you know, when 21 we knew the allegation, that the allegations that the 22 government has against him was just false. 23 Q. What was the result of his case, Nasser Ahmed's case? 24 A. Nasser Ahmed was, after three and a half years in prison, 25 was granted political asylum and he is out there today, you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10070 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 know, raising a family. 2 Q. Were documents from Nasser Ahmed's case recovered during 3 the search? 4 A. I'm sorry? 5 Q. Were documents from Nasser Ahmed's case recovered during 6 the search of your apartment? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And why did you have those documents? 9 A. Well, we go back to my garage again. My garage became like 10 the storage place for anybody who does not have any place to 11 store his stuff. 12 After the conclusion of Nasser's case, most of the 13 stuff was at Mr. Clark's office so I was asked -- or Nasser was 14 asked if he can take that place, his stuff away. 15 So he took the stuff, I got it, and I put it because 16 he was moving at the time. I put it in my garage and it stayed 17 in my garage until I was arrested, or until it was seized by 18 the government. 19 Q. After the Sheikh was moved to Springfield, Missouri, did 20 you continue, in any way, to have a personal relationship with 21 him? 22 A. Did I continue to have a personal relationship? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. How so? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10071 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. I went there, I traveled there, I visited him a couple of 2 times with Mr. Clark. I visit him, I believe, once alone. I 3 believe I visit him once again with, I believe The Daily News 4 to translate for The Daily News. 5 So, I -- and I still have, you know, received his 6 telephone calls two times a week. 7 Q. And did there come a time when your personal contact with 8 the Sheikh ended? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And when was that? 11 A. That was in 1997. 12 Q. And why was that? 13 A. Because they applied -- the government applied the SAM on 14 him and, you know, I was -- I did not have any access or direct 15 access to the Sheikh. 16 Q. Now, after the Sheikh was moved to Springfield, did you 17 have any further role as part of his legal team? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What was that role? 20 A. My role was to always remind the public of the Sheikh's 21 case. That this man is still alive, he is out there under very 22 bad condition, his treatment. He is totally cut from the 23 world. It was a decision that was made after the government 24 applied the SAM. We had a meeting. 25 Q. When you say "we", who had a meeting? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10072 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Me, Ramsey, Abdeen. 2 Q. Ramsey Clark? 3 A. Ramsey Clark, Abdeen Jabara, Lynne Stewart, Nabil Elmasry 4 and two or three other people, we had a meeting and to, how we 5 are going to deal with the SAM. And we come to the conclusion 6 that, you know, applying the SAM it was just, to cut the Sheikh 7 off from the whole world and make the whole world just forget 8 that this man ever existed. 9 So, we come to the conclusion also, or we come to a -- 10 we make the decision that we will take every opportunity to 11 remind the public or the world that this man is still out 12 there, he is still alive. He should be treated according to -- 13 he should be treated humanely according to -- he is -- he is -- 14 he is a human before he is a criminal. 15 This is what we came to decide and to try to remind 16 the world of. 17 Q. What role, if any, did you have? 18 A. I had, for many years, through his trial and through after 19 his incarceration and his conviction I had a role -- I 20 established a relationship with the Sheikh's family that I was, 21 you know, speaking to the Sheikh's family in Egypt. I spoke to 22 his lawyers in Egypt. And I spoke to the lawyers here. 23 And I was like a coordinator between the lawyers in 24 Egypt, the family in Egypt and the lawyers here. 25 I also took the opportunity or took every opportunity SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10073 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 to speak on the Sheikh's behalf and to just until -- anybody 2 who wants to hear about the Sheikh, anybody who wants to learn 3 about the Sheikh I took it upon myself to speak on his behalf 4 and to tell the whole world, you know, who is this man really 5 is or -- and what he did and what he came to be about. 6 Q. Did you speak to the media? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. And was that both Arabic and American media? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How often would you speak to them? 11 A. I did speak to them on behalf of the Sheikh during his 12 trial. I did speak on behalf of the Sheikh more after the SAM 13 was applied. I felt that it was necessary just, you know, to 14 take every chance to speak on his behalf and remind people of 15 his case. 16 Q. Do you collect and keep business cards from different media 17 persons -- 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. -- that you made contact with? 20 A. Yes, I did. Yes. 21 Q. And were these business cards seized during the search of 22 your house? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 25 Government Exhibit 2081, in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10074 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you see government -- what is Government 3 Exhibit 2081, in evidence? 4 A. I had, like a wallet, a big wallet, you know. It is 5 exclusively for business cards. And I had all these business 6 cards in it and this is, you know, the government -- Government 7 Exhibit 2081 was what was in that wallet. 8 Q. Showing you page 2 of that exhibit, this says the top left, 9 Ben Farnsworth WNBC-TV New York? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know Mr. Farnsworth? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you speak with him? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. And there is a card, Newsweek, Tom Masland, did you speak 16 with him? 17 A. Yes, I did speak with Mr. Masland and I arranged, in 1993, 18 an interview for the Sheikh that he conducted. 19 Q. The next page, the WB 11, WPIX, Jonathan Dienst? 20 A. Yes. I spoke to him a couple of times and actually I saw 21 him here covering the trial too. 22 Q. And Daily News, Michael S.C. Claffey, reporter; did you 23 speak with him? 24 A. I cannot recall that I spoke with him. 25 Q. And the Boston Globe, Charles Sennott? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10075 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You spoke with him? 3 A. I spoke with him, I believe over the phone; yes. 4 Q. And The New Yorker, Mary Ann Weaver? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You spoke with Ms. Weaver? 7 A. Yes. I had a very good relationship with Ms. Weaver. I 8 arranged a couple of interviews with The New Yorker magazine 9 for her and she was writing a book called Portrait of Egypt, 10 that I -- I helped her, you know, on the book. It was about 11 the Sheikh and the Islamic Group and the whole political 12 situation in Egypt. 13 Q. And The Hudson Dispatch-The Jersey Journal, Greg Wilson; 14 did you speak with him? 15 A. I'm not sure about it. 16 Q. Washington Post, Lynne Duke? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You spoke with her? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you speak with New York Newsday, Wendell Jamieson? 21 A. I spoke with Newsday but I'm not quite sure who exactly. 22 Q. New York Times, Robert Hanley? 23 A. Yes, I spoke to Mr. Hanley. 24 Q. Time Magazine, Richard Behar? 25 A. Yes, I spoke to Mr. Behar. Not just spoke to him, we had SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10076 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 dinner together. 2 Q. Did you speak to all sorts of reporters from CNN, Gary 3 Tuchman? 4 A. Yes, a couple times I spoke with Mr. Tuchman. 5 Q. And Brian Jenkins from CNN? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And for the BBC, David Taylor? 8 A. Yes. I had an interview with the BBC. 9 Q. And from The Daily News, Michael Daly? 10 A. Yes. This is -- yes, I had an interview back in 1997, I 11 believe. A couple interviews with Mr. Daly. 12 Q. And from Reuters, Jeanne King; did you speak with Ms. King? 13 A. Yes, I spoke to Ms. King. And we became friends. She came 14 to my home, I went to her house and, you know, we developed a 15 good relationship. 16 Q. And, in fact, during the government's presentation of 17 evidence they played a conversation between you and Ms. King, 18 is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And did you speak to -- I asked about Gary Tuchman. 21 Were there other reporters from the Arabic press and 22 the American press that you also kept in contact with? 23 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, I just saw a card here with 24 Mr. Peter Waldman from the Wall Street Journal that I spoke to 25 him and he had an interview, I arranged and interview with him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10077 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 and the Sheikh but it was back in 1993. I met him a few times 2 when I, you know, I attended the Sheikh's trial. I saw him 3 when he was covering the trial. 4 Q. Are you a spokesman for the Islamic Group? 5 A. Am I a spokesman? 6 Q. Were you a spokesman for the Islamic Group? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you ever release a statement to the media where you 9 introduced yourself as a spokesperson for the Islamic Group? 10 A. I never claimed that I am a spokesman or person for the 11 Islamic Group. I am not even a member of the Islamic Group. 12 I spoke on behalf the Sheikh, yes; but never on behalf 13 of the Islamic Group. 14 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, before we move on to a new 15 area, may we have a short break? 16 THE COURT: Okay, sure. 17 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 10 minutes. 18 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk about 19 the case at all, always remember to keep an open mind. All 20 rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury room. 21 (Jury not present) 22 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar may step down. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 THE COURT: See you shortly. 25 (Recess) (Page 10078 SEALED by order of the Court) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10079 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: I always want to make sure that the 3 reporter gets down, the last phrase was "Nothing to do with 4 me." 5 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry, your Honor? 6 THE COURT: I always want to make sure the reporter 7 gets down, the last phrase was, "Nothing to do with me," at the 8 side bar. 9 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. I simply saw the sign 10 the reporter had placed on the jury rail with a seating chart 11 of the lawyers. 12 THE COURT: Oh. 13 MR. TIGAR: As I had not noticed it before I was 14 asking what it was. That's all, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Thank you. 16 Mr. Sattar can and take the stand. And let's bring in 17 the jury. 18 (Continued on next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10080 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 3 Mr. Fletcher? 4 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 5 you are still under oath. 6 THE WITNESS: Thanks, sir. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 8 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 9 BY MR. FALLICK: 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, did there come a time in 1997 that you learned 11 of a statement being issued concerning a peace initiative or 12 cease-fire in Egypt? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. When did you learn of this statement? 15 A. I believe it was in June or July, 1997. 16 Q. And how did you become aware of it? 17 A. I read about it in Al-Hayat newspaper. 18 Q. And who, if you know, issued that statement? 19 A. There were the Islamic Group leaders in prison in Egypt. 20 Q. What was your understanding of this statement? 21 A. My understanding of the statement that they were initiating 22 a peace initiative or a halt of violent acts in Egypt. They 23 were giving the government what we call, you know, an olive 24 branch. 25 Q. When you say that, who was offering this olive branch? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10081 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. The Islamic Group leaders in prison in Egypt. 2 Q. Now, when you learned of this statement, did you understand 3 that in the past the Islamic Group had committed violent acts? 4 A. Oh yes. 5 Q. And they had committed murders? 6 A. Yes. As what I said, it was a war going on between the 7 government and the Islamic Group. It was -- upper Egypt was 8 actually like a war zone. 9 Q. What was your understanding, if any, that, of the Islamic 10 Group's goal in issuing this statement? 11 A. Their goal from the first from reading their, their goal, 12 they had no goal. It was just to stop the bloodshed. This 13 was -- this is what they said. What the leaders in prison 14 said. I'm sorry. 15 Q. Do you know if everyone involved with the Islamic Group 16 agreed with this initiative? 17 A. No. 18 Q. No, meaning what? 19 A. No, not everybody involved with the Islamic Group agreed 20 with this initiative in 1997. No. 21 Q. How do you know that? 22 A. It was -- there was a denial. I read it in the newspaper, 23 same newspaper I had that issued the statement. There was 24 issued another, a denial from what they called Islamic Group 25 leadership outside Egypt denying that the leaders inside prison SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10082 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 initiated that. They said this was a propaganda by the 2 Egyptian government and things in this effect. 3 Q. What is the difference, if any, in your opinion, between 4 the term "peace initiative" and "cease-fire"? 5 A. The peace initiative is just an initiative to restore peace 6 after a period of violent time. Cease-fire means nobody is 7 going to fire. 8 I want to just clear one thing here about the name of 9 the initiative. 10 Throughout the cause refer to it as the initiative. 11 The initiative originally it was, it's name was initiative to 12 halt violent acts in Egypt and people refer to it as the 13 initiative, in short. 14 The cease-fire thing, it was just a translation or, 15 you know, an easy thing, the cease-fire initiative. But, you 16 know, the actual name of it was the initiative to halt violent 17 acts. Some people refer to it as the cease-fire initiative. 18 Others, you know, they say the peace initiative just, you know, 19 for an easy -- to use an easy word. 20 Q. After the initiative was issued in 1997, do you know if 21 Sheikh Rahman stated his position concerning the initiative? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And to whom did he state that? 24 A. He stated his position to Mr. Ramsey Clark. 25 Q. And do you know when that was? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10083 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. This was in August 1997 on a visit that day Mr. Clark had 2 with the Sheikh in Springfield, Missouri. 3 Q. That was a prison visit in Springfield, Missouri? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And who, if you know, made the arrangements for that visit? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. How did it come about that you made the arrangements? 8 A. Well, I -- that, you know, I arranged for the visit, I 9 believe I paid for the tickets for Mr. Clark and I wrote a 10 letter to the Sheikh, gave it to Mr. Clark. 11 Q. The procedures that were used to set up this visit, were 12 these the same procedures used for all of the other prison 13 visits? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And for each of the visits, you were the one who arranged 16 for the plane tickets? 17 A. Yes, I arranged for the plane tickets. 18 Whoever was going there, whether it was Mr. Clark, 19 Ms. Stewart or Mr. Jabara, you know, they would make a 20 reservation in a hotel or sometimes I do make a reservation for 21 them but they would pay for it and would be reimbursed. 22 Q. Where did the money come to pay for these visits? 23 A. The money came from Muslims, the Muslim community in the 24 United States. You know, people. I told you that the Sheikh 25 was very well known and people out there still love him and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10084 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 people were donating money, especially around the holidays. 2 As Muslims we are supposed to pay 2 and a half percent 3 of our income for charity every year, so people divide this 4 charity to different causes or different, or give it to 5 different places. I used to get some of this money for the 6 Sheikh, for his family, for his defense. For things like this. 7 So, I had some money to spare and to pay for the 8 tickets and the expenses of the lawyers when they go when they 9 travel there. 10 Q. For each of these prison visits, did you also send a 11 letter? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What was contained in each of these letters? 14 A. Everything that will come in my mind. I was just -- I know 15 that the Sheikh was cut off from the world, I just want to 16 inform him about what's going on, his family, his -- you know, 17 I mean, the Muslim community that he could relate to in the 18 United States, people he knew in the United States. What is 19 going on in the mosques in the United States. What's going on 20 outside the United States. 21 People who had to -- who he knew them, personally, 22 before his incarceration were in touch with me. I wrote. 23 I was getting him involved, keeping him informed of 24 what's going -- what's going on outside. 25 Q. Were the procedures the same for each visit concerning the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10085 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 letter that you wrote? 2 A. Never changed since 1997. 3 Q. What was that procedure? 4 A. Any lawyer is going they will make the arrangement. 5 First they will arrange the visits with the Sheikh, 6 they will decide the date and then they will, whoever is going 7 in will call me and say, you know, I'm traveling on such a 8 date, if you can make an arrangement, airplane reservation. I 9 will do that. I will pay for the tickets and I will get the 10 tickets either delivered to them or I will take it myself and 11 give it to them and give them -- and I will write a letter to 12 the Sheikh, a personal letter, my things, and other things, you 13 know people are saying, Muntasir Al-Zayat as what we say, as we 14 heard throughout the trial, Rifa'i Taha. Anybody that he wants 15 to say something to the Sheikh, I will write it there. 16 But mainly it was his family and his loved ones. I 17 will inform him about so many things, you know, on each visit. 18 I will give the letter to, sometimes to the lawyer, 19 sometimes, you know, to, I would call the lawyer and say, you 20 know, I have a letter for the Sheikh but I'm going to see 21 Yousry. I will give the tickets to Yousry and I will give him 22 the letter. And they would say okay. 23 And this was normal procedure. 24 Q. Did Mr. Yousry accompany the lawyers as a translator for 25 the prison visits? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10086 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. He was -- Mr. Yousry was the only translator, was the 2 only person outside what you would call the defense lawyer team 3 that was allowed to see the Sheikh. 4 Q. Were the letters that you wrote in English or Arabic? 5 A. Always in Arabic. 6 Q. Let me direct you back to the prison visit of Mr. Clark 7 after the peace initiative was announced. And when was that 8 prison visit? 9 A. When? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. I believe it was in August. 12 Q. August of what year? 13 A. Either late July, early August it was. 14 Q. And what year? 15 A. 1997. 16 Q. Okay. And do you know who accompanied Mr. Clark on that 17 visit? 18 A. It was Mohammed Yousry. 19 Q. And did you send a letter on that visit? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. And do you recall if there was anything in that letter 22 concerning the peace initiative? 23 A. Yes. 24 I stated to the Sheikh what was going on, that there 25 was an initiative initiated by the leaders in prison and there SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10087 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 is people outside Egypt are denying that it is. And then there 2 was another people, you know, confirming that it was true. And 3 asking his opinion. And, I also stated my opinion on this. 4 Q. Did you receive a response back, an answer back from the 5 Sheikh? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And from whom did you get that answer? 8 A. I believe it was from Mr. Clark. 9 Q. Did the Sheikh make known his position concerning the peace 10 initiative? 11 A. Yes? 12 Q. Did the Sheikh make known his position? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what was his position? 15 A. He was in support of the peace initiative. He was in 16 support of it. 17 Q. And do you know if the Sheikh's position supporting the 18 peace initiative was announced to the media in any way? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And who issued a statement to the media? 21 A. There was two statements, one in Arabic and one in English. 22 Q. Who issued the English statement? 23 A. The English statement Mr. Clark issued to the 24 English-speaking media. 25 Q. Do you recall what that statement said? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10088 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. That statement said that the Sheikh was in support of the 2 peace initiative in Egypt. 3 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 4 Government Exhibit 22, in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, I refer you to Government Exhibit 22, in 7 evidence, which is an article dated August 12, 1997 and was 8 reported in the Newark Star Ledger. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I have a moment to 10 confer with Mr. Fallick? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 (Counsel conferring) 13 MR. FALLICK: Mr. Sattar -- your Honor, may I approach 14 the witness and mark this as, for identification, AS-25? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. FALLICK: May I ask questions from here, your 17 Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 Q. Mr. Sattar, let me show you what I have marked for 20 identification as AS-25; do you recognize this document? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What is it this document? 23 A. This is a newspaper report. 24 Q. Concerning what? 25 A. Concerning the peace initiative in Egypt in the 1997 peace SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10089 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 initiative. 2 Q. Does this also concern Mr. Clark's statement to the press 3 in 1997? 4 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, could Mr. Sattar make sure he 5 is speaking into the mic? I'm not sure everyone can hear him. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 BY MR. FALLICK: 8 Q. Did this article also contain Mr. Clark's statement to the 9 press concerning the Sheikh's position in 1997? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I would offer AS-25, in 12 evidence. 13 MR. MORVILLO: No objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. AS-25, received in evidence. 15 (Defendant's Exhibit AS-25 received in evidence) 16 MR. FALLICK: May I now display it to the jury, your 17 Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 Q. Mr. Sattar, in the fourth paragraph down there is a quote 20 that says, "I give my blessing for the invitation to stop the 21 violence and I ask others to support it," Abdel Rahman told 22 Clark to advise his followers. Clark told Reuters he had 23 informed Abdel Rahman via a translator of the truce call. 24 Was this a statement that Mr. Clark issued to the 25 media? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10090 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, what statement was issued to the Arab press? 3 A. It was in the same effect. 4 Q. And who issued that statement? 5 A. I mean? 6 Q. Who issued the statement? 7 A. Who issued that statement? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. It was from the Sheikh, and I sent it to the Arab media. 10 Q. And who, if anyone, authorized you to send it to the Arab 11 media? 12 A. It was Mr. Clark, and I also arranged a press interview -- 13 an Arabic press interview between Mr. Clark and some Arabic 14 newspapers, you know, to speak to them on this. 15 Q. After the initial statement concerning the peace initiative 16 was announced, did you, yourself, have an opinion about it? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you express your opinion to anyone? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. To whom? 21 A. I expressed my opinion in the letter that I sent to the 22 Sheikh. 23 Q. And what was your opinion? 24 A. I was asking him to wait, not to support the initiative. 25 Just to wait. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10091 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Because to give the government an initiative to stop 2 what was going on -- you know, we have to understand one thing 3 here about what was going on in Egypt. 4 There was a period of confrontation from 1990 to 1997. 5 This period start to come down from 1990 -- in 1995. There 6 were no more -- the attacks were, you know, here and there, it 7 was not like before. It was clear that the Islamic Group were 8 defeated and just, you know, they were grasping for some air. 9 So, it was -- in my opinion it would have been wrong 10 for any group or any people that fighting or doing what they 11 are doing, just stand up all of a sudden and raise their hand 12 and say, we surrender, and then we want to negotiate. Nobody 13 was going to negotiate with somebody that surrendered already. 14 So you could say, you know, in my opinion it was, yes, 15 we are willing to, or the Islamic Group or the Sheikh you could 16 say, yes, I am willing to support that but that the government 17 could come and sit down at the table and talk. 18 It was -- this was my opinion back then in 1997. 19 Q. When you say there was a period of confrontation between 20 1990 and 1997, who was the confrontation between? 21 A. It was between mainly the Islamic Group. There were other 22 groups involved in Egypt at the time. There was mainly the 23 Islamic Group and the Egyptian government. There were other 24 small groups attacking the government here and there. 25 Q. When you use the word "confrontation" does that mean SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10092 4C75SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 violence? 2 A. It is. It was -- it was bloody, violent. It was a 3 horrible period of time. 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10093 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. When you sent the Sheikh your opinion to wait before he 2 issued his opinion -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- were you advocating the use of continued violence? 5 A. No. I was not advocating the continued -- the violence was 6 already halting. As what I told you, it was very clear that 7 the Islamic Group was defeated. So I was coming from a 8 political aspect. I said, you know, if you want to use this 9 politically, just, you know, wait and say, you know, we are 10 willing to negotiate, especially around this time. There was 11 what they call -- a year before there was a committee gathered 12 to offer -- to mediate between the government and the Islamic 13 Group. They wanted to mediate. They wanted to reconciliate 14 between the Egyptian government and the Islamic Group. The 15 Egyptian government at the time refused that and they said, we 16 are not going to negotiate, we are not going to sit down with 17 anybody. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government requests 19 there be a limiting instruction with respect to this testimony. 20 MR. FALLICK: No objection. 21 THE COURT: This testimony is being offered solely 22 with respect to Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent, and state of 23 mind. 24 Go ahead. 25 A. So it was in my opinion for the Sheikh to come out and say, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10094 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 you know, that he is in support or was premature. 2 Q. What interest, if any, did you have in how the Islamic 3 Group operated in Egypt? 4 A. I did not have any interest of how the Islamic Group have 5 in Egypt. But as an Egyptian, a man who was born and raised in 6 Egypt, saw with his own eyes what was going on there, I 7 understand. I fully understand what was taking place in Egypt. 8 I fully understand that violence is two-way street. If the 9 government commit violence, other groups, this group -- this 10 group will answer back in a violent way. I understand that 11 Egypt was living a very tough period of time through government 12 atrocities. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 Q. What, to your knowledge, was the reaction in 1997 of the 16 peace initiative by the Egyptian government? 17 A. By the Egyptian government? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. There was no peace initiative by the Egyptian government. 20 Q. What was their reaction -- 21 A. The reaction -- 22 Q. Of the government. 23 A. There was no reaction whatsoever. They did not react to 24 it. 25 Q. Was there a reaction by the Egyptian people to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10095 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 initiative? 2 A. They were reaction. 3 Q. What was that reaction? 4 A. By people say, you know, we are trying to urge the 5 government to react and to, you know, extend its hand to this 6 group of citizens and try to solve this problem that Egypt was 7 facing. 8 Q. Did there come a time that you learned about the murder of 9 tourists in Luxor, Egypt? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When was that? 12 A. That was in 199 -- it was November 17, 1997. 13 Q. How did you learn of murders in Luxor? 14 A. I watch it on TV here. 15 Q. Where is Luxor, Egypt? 16 A. Luxor is about 500 miles away from Cairo. It is in upper 17 Egypt or the south of Egypt. 18 Q. Go ahead. Finish your answer. 19 A. It is about 500 miles away from Cairo. 20 Q. What is the significance, if any, of Luxor, Egypt? 21 A. Luxor, in the old days, during the pharaoh's time was very 22 important. It was a capital of Egypt. Luxor, most of the 23 pharaohs that ruled Egypt at certain period of time were buried 24 in Luxor. So it is a huge tourist attraction. 25 Q. What do you recall seeing on the news concerning the murder SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10096 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 of tourists in Luxor? 2 A. I seen on the news that six attackers open fire, killed 3 about 58 foreign tourists and four Egyptian policemen, and that 4 the attackers, all of them were killed also, and I seen it on 5 TV, the blood, the guts. It was a horrendous scene, 6 especially -- I know the area. I've been there, me and my wife 7 when we visited Egypt. It was just heartbreaking. 8 Q. What was your reaction to what you saw? 9 A. What I told you it was, I was just in awe. I could not 10 believe a thing like this could happen, especially in Egypt. 11 Q. Did you learn if anyone or group claimed responsibility for 12 the attack? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. And how did you learn this? 15 A. It was a day after in the newspapers that a group -- 16 Q. What did you read? 17 A. I read that the Islamic Group claimed responsibility. 18 Q. Do you know what the reaction of the Egyptian government 19 was to the attack at Luxor? 20 A. Let me just also clear one thing here because what I read 21 in the newspaper that the Islamic Group claimed responsibility. 22 But, as usual, the Islamic Group also denied responsibility. 23 Somebody says, no, this is not an Islamic Group act. 24 Going back to your question, the Egyptian government 25 reaction was the usual thing, more crackdown, more arrests, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10097 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 more torture, more -- 2 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor, move to strike. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken. 4 Q. Do you know if the Sheikh ever made any statement 5 concerning the killings at Luxor? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And when did he make such a statement? 8 A. I'm not quite sure when, but it is like a month after the 9 attack or a few weeks after the attack. 10 Q. How did he make that statement? 11 A. He condemned it. 12 Q. How? 13 A. Through Mr. Clark. 14 Q. And was that through another prison visit? 15 A. No. It was a phone call. 16 Q. A phone call between whom? 17 A. Between Mr. Clark and the Sheikh. 18 Q. And after the phone call did Mr. Clark make any statement 19 concerning the Sheikh's opinion concerning the attacks at 20 Luxor? 21 A. Yes, he did. 22 Q. What did he say the Sheikh's opinion was? 23 A. He said that the Sheikh condemned that attack. 24 Q. Did you yourself make any statements concerning the attack 25 at Luxor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10098 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. I made a statement to the American newspapers, 2 and I also arranged for Mr. Clark to make statements to the 3 Arabic newspapers to tell them that the Sheikh condemned that 4 attack. 5 Q. To which American newspapers did you make the statement? 6 A. I believe it was the Daily News. 7 Q. How did that come about that you made a statement to the 8 Daily News? 9 A. I get a phone call asking -- from a reporter asking me my 10 opinion about what happened in Egypt. 11 Q. Do you recall what you said? 12 A. Vaguely, yes. 13 Q. What did you say? 14 A. I believe that I condemn it and I said, you know, that I do 15 not condone violence. But I understand what will drive -- what 16 will drive somebody to do that. I understand what's going on 17 in Egypt and, you know, it is unfortunate that, you know, there 18 is a war going on in Egypt and nobody is paying attention to it 19 unless something horrendous like this happens. 20 Q. Did there come a time that you began to speak with a man 21 named Yasir Al-Sirri? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. When was that? 24 A. That was -- I am not quite sure when was that. I believe 25 it was in early '98. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10099 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. How did that come about? 2 A. I had an interview with an Arabic newspaper and I spoke 3 about the Sheikh and I spoke about his condition. And I spoke 4 about -- there was, you know, an attempt to form a committee to 5 defend the Sheikh. So I said that we are in the process, you 6 know, of forming a committee to defend him, and they published 7 my telephone number in that newspaper. I believe it was Asharq 8 Al-Awsat newspaper. 9 THE COURT: Since you're starting another subject, why 10 don't we take a stretch break at this point, since we have 11 another half an hour. 12 Thank you, Mr. Fallick. You may proceed. 13 BY MR. FALLICK: 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, I was asking you how it came about that 15 Mr. Al-Sirri contacted you? 16 A. He called me. 17 Q. Do you know where he got your telephone number from? 18 A. Yes. He got it from the newspaper. It was published in 19 the newspaper with my interview. 20 Q. When he first called you, did you know who he was? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And who was he? 23 A. I know he is an Egyptian, that he resides in London. I 24 know that he was in charge -- he is an activist. He started a 25 center called the Islamic Observation Center, and I know he was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10100 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 seeking political asylum in London. 2 Q. Why did he call you? 3 A. He called me, he wants more information about the Sheikh 4 and his condition. 5 Q. Did you speak with him? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. How often would you speak with him? 8 A. At the beginning it was not very often. 9 Q. Did that change over time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And how often would you speak to him at this time? 12 A. As time progressed, I used to speak to him a few times a 13 week. 14 Q. And did he speak English? 15 A. No. 16 Q. What would you speak to him about? 17 A. You know, at the beginning we were speaking about the 18 Sheikh and then, you know, as time progressed we were speaking 19 about so many different things. The Islamic Observation Center 20 was concentrating on anything having to do with Muslims, 21 whether it is human right violation or a statement that is 22 going to be issued by some group. He was publishing some 23 books. So he was -- his activity were everywhere. So we were 24 talking about so many subjects, but mainly we were talking 25 about Egypt. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10101 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Did there come a time that you also began to speak with a 2 man named Rifa'i Ahmad Taha Musa? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. When did you speak with him for the first time? 5 A. I believe it was late '98. 6 Q. Was this in person or over the telephone? 7 A. Over the telephone. 8 Q. Did he call you or did you call him? 9 A. He called me. 10 Q. How did it happen that you began to speak with him? 11 A. He just -- you know, I spoke to Yasir Al-Sirri once and 12 Yasir Al-Sirri told me that this man wants to speak to me; and 13 if I don't mind speaking to him, he is going to give him my 14 telephone number. And I told him okay. 15 Q. Did you refer -- how did you refer to him? 16 A. To Rifa'i Taha? Some referred to him in a word -- Dr. 17 Rifa'i is an older man than me. In our culture, in the Arabic 18 culture we don't refer to people who are older than you or to 19 people who are at the same level as you with their just name. 20 Either you refer to him with his name like Abu. So Abu means 21 father of. Abu Yasir or you refer to him if he is an engineer 22 as engineer so. If he is a doctor, Dr. So. If he is a 23 professor, professor so. If he has no title, then you make up 24 one, and you give it to him, like you could call him Sheikh. 25 There is a word which has no equivalent in the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10102 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 American -- in the English language which I prefer to many 2 people who have the Islamic meaning. It is called mawlana. 3 Mawlana has no equivalent in the English language, but it is a 4 title of respect. We seen it here throughout the calls, my 5 telephone calls. People refer to it. Some translator referred 6 to it as sir, your excellency, your eminence. Every translator 7 had a different definition for it. Actually, there is no 8 equivalent in the English language for it. 9 Q. When Mr. Al-Sirri told you that he was going to give your 10 telephone number to Mr. Taha, did you know who Mr. Taha was? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. How did you know who he was? 13 A. Through the newspapers, through the books that I read about 14 the Islamic Group. Anybody who knows about Egypt or that 15 period of time in Egypt will know who Rifa'i Taha is. 16 Q. Who did you know him to be? 17 A. I know he was one of the founders of the Islamic Group. I 18 know that he was the outside leader of the Islamic Group at one 19 period of time. I know he was associated with the Islamic 20 Group -- not just associated with the Islamic Group. He had a 21 lot to do with the Islamic Group. 22 Q. How often would you speak -- did he call you? 23 A. Yes. Let me just say, I want to clear one thing here, too. 24 Beside Al-Sirri in London and the calls to Egypt, I did not 25 call any of those people. I had no telephone numbers for them. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10103 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 I did not call Rifa'i Taha, I did not call Mr. Hamza. I did 2 not call anybody from places that was unknown to me. 3 Q. Did Mr. Taha call me? 4 A. Yes. As usual, he always did. 5 Q. Initially, what would you speak with him about? 6 A. Initially, he was asking about the Sheikh, his condition, 7 what's going on with him. 8 Q. And did the amount of times that you spoke with Taha 9 increase over time? 10 A. Yes, it did. 11 Q. Do you know where Taha was when you spoke with him? 12 A. At the beginning I had -- I was suspecting where he is, but 13 I was not sure. But as the time progressed I know he was in 14 Afghanistan. 15 Q. Did you learn why he was in Afghanistan? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And from whom? 18 A. From what I know about that period of time. 19 Q. Why was Mr. Taha in Afghanistan? 20 A. Well, it was not just Mr. Taha in Afghanistan. There was a 21 huge number of Egyptians in Afghanistan. During the Soviet 22 invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 -- 23 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we have an instruction, as 24 we did with Mr. Yousry, that the recitation of historical 25 events is limited, for limited purposes? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10104 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Any objection? 3 MR. FALLICK: No, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, the recitation of 5 historical events is being given for this witness's knowledge, 6 intent, and state of mind and not for the truth of the 7 historical events that are recounted. 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, you were testifying about your knowledge of why 9 Mr. Taha was in Afghanistan? 10 A. Yes. What I was saying in the '80s, after the Soviet 11 invasion of Afghanistan, anybody who had Islamic meaning and 12 wanted to go to Afghanistan -- things were facilitated to him, 13 to leave, to travel through the Egyptian government. The 14 Egyptian government actually was, you know, sending people 15 literally to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Rifa'i Taha, as 16 others, I could say, thousands of Egyptians, left Egypt and 17 went and fought in Afghanistan. When the time after the war 18 was over in 1989 or 1990, when those people start to go back to 19 Egypt, they were arrested and they were thrown in jail. As a 20 matter of fact, some of them is still in jail until today, 21 since 1989 with no charges, except that -- 22 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor, move to strike. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken. The jury is 24 instructed to disregard. 25 Q. Did there come a time when you began also to speak with a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10105 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 man named Yunis? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When was that? 4 A. That was a few months after I received the first call from 5 Taha. 6 Q. Did you speak to this man named Yunis in person or over the 7 telephone? 8 A. Over the telephone. 9 Q. Did he call you or did you call him? 10 A. He called me. 11 Q. Do you know how he got your telephone number? 12 A. I believe from Taha. 13 Q. Did you ever come to know him by any other name? 14 A. Well, Yunis is a very -- until today, it is very murky. I 15 really don't. I am not quite sure. The government claimed 16 that he is Mustafa Hamza. Until now I don't know if he is 17 Mustafa Hamza or he can be any Joe Schmoe. I really don't 18 know. 19 Q. Did you know or have an understanding of who Mustafa Hamza 20 was? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Who was that? 23 A. Mustafa Hamza was in charge of the Islamic Group after 24 Rifa'i Taha resigned from the Islamic Group after the Luxor 25 attack. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10106 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Did the person who you spoke to named Yunis ever identify 2 himself to you as Mustafa Hamza? 3 A. No. 4 Q. How often would you speak with Yunis? 5 A. Well, often. At the beginning he used to call me once a 6 month, once every three weeks. And then I did not speak with 7 him as much as I spoke with Taha. 8 Q. What did you speak to Yunis about? 9 A. At the beginning it was about the Sheikh and then, you 10 know, about Egypt. 11 Q. Have you ever met Yunis? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Have you ever met Taha? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you ever met Al-Sirri? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Have you ever met any other people other than those who 18 participate here in the trial? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did there come a time that you learned of Yunis's position 21 concerning the peace initiative? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How did you learn of his position? 24 A. Through him and through his phone calls that -- the 25 three-way calling that I was connecting him with other people. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10107 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. How did the three-way telephone calls work? 2 A. He would call me or Taha would call me or he would call me 3 and I am going to put him on hold on the other line, call the 4 other number that he wants me to call and, after I get the 5 ring, connect both numbers together. Just press a button and 6 both people will be talking. 7 Q. Why did you do that? 8 A. I felt it was -- for me it was -- I was doing them a favor, 9 actually. They were having some problems communicating with 10 people, expressing, you know, their views about how to deal 11 with the peace initiative and things like this. And I felt, 12 you know, I could facilitate these things for them. 13 Q. Did they have any connection with the Sheikh? 14 A. What do you mean? 15 Q. Did they have any connection? Did Yunis and Taha have any 16 connection with the Sheikh? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What was that connection? 19 A. They want to say such to the Sheikh. I will just write it 20 down in my letters, or they will send me something and I will 21 read it and I will write it down and I send it to him. 22 Q. What did you learn of -- what did you learn Yunis's 23 position was concerning the peace initiative? 24 A. He was in support of it. 25 Q. Did there come a time that you learned of Taha's position SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10108 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 regarding the peace initiative? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And how did you learn of his position? 4 A. Through his telephone calls, through his conversations with 5 me, through what he asked me to tell the Sheikh. 6 Q. What was his position concerning the peace initiative? 7 A. Taha's position was more on the aggressive side. He was 8 not happy. He was not pleased with the results. And he was 9 pushing to use the initiative card. He was pushing, playing 10 what we call here the tough cop, good cop, tough cop. People 11 in Egypt, trying to negotiate with the government, you know. 12 He will say, no, no negotiation, and we want such and such and 13 such and such. This is what Taha's position was. 14 Q. Do you know if Taha and Yunis knew of each other's 15 positions regarding the peace initiative? 16 A. Yes, they did. 17 Q. How do you know that? 18 A. Through both of them. I mean, Yunis will tell me things, 19 you know, and Taha will tell me other things. And both of them 20 at one point will probably like contradict each other. So I 21 know that they know of each other position. 22 Q. Did there come a time in early 1999 when a prison visit was 23 arranged with the Sheikh? 24 A. In early -- 25 Q. In early 1999. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10109 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall when that was? 3 A. I am not -- 4 Q. Do you recall that it was March of 1999? 5 A. Yes, it could be, yes. 6 Q. Do you know where the Sheikh was at that time? 7 A. He was in Rochester, Minnesota. 8 Q. When was he moved to Rochester, Minnesota? 9 A. I believe in '98 or early '99. 10 Q. Now, for the March 1999 visit, do you know who went on that 11 visit? 12 A. The March 1999 was Lynne and Mohammed Yousry. 13 Q. Were the same procedures used for that visit that was used 14 for the visit with Mr. Clark in 1998? 15 A. Yes. Same procedure that was used in 1997 that was used in 16 1998, that was used in 2001 and 2000, same procedure. 17 Q. Was the SAMs in effect in 1999? 18 A. Yes, it was. 19 Q. Now, prior to the March 1999 visit, did anyone ask you to 20 relay a communication to the Sheikh? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And who was that? 23 A. That was Rifa'i Taha. 24 Q. What did he ask you to relay to the Sheikh? 25 A. He was asking -- he was mainly complaining about the result SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10110 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 of the initiative, that the initiative is not bearing any 2 fruits, that he is not satisfied with it, that, you know, he is 3 complaining about people trying to silent him any time that he 4 writes something or he speak about something, you know. People 5 attack him. You know, he say he is not happy with that. And 6 he wants the Sheikh to issue something or to take his side. 7 Q. Were you able yourself to visit the Sheikh in March 1999? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Why was that? 10 A. Because I was not allowed to visit him because of the SAM. 11 Q. Now, did both Yunis and Taha believe that you were visiting 12 with the Sheikh in 1999? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Was that true? 15 A. No, it was not. 16 Q. And why did they believe that? 17 A. Well, they believed it because I always said that I am in 18 touch with the Sheikh. 19 Q. Why did you tell them that? 20 A. Why did I tell them that? It was for -- after the Sheikh 21 was cut off from the world, I sent with Mr. Clark -- in that 22 letter that I wrote Mr. Clark, I sent in it telling the Sheikh 23 that you are now cut off from the world. People don't know 24 Yousry, people don't know Mr. Clark outside in Egypt. It will 25 be difficult to say that, you know, for anybody to say -- you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10111 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 know, anything that you want to say, it will be difficult for 2 them to say it. Mohammed, first of all, has no relation with 3 the Sheikh. Mohammed will be hunted by the Egyptian government 4 if his name ever come up. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. Move to strike. 6 Just the last sentence, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: The last sentence is stricken. 8 The last sentence was stricken. It is not clear to me 9 whether the witness is any longer answering the question that 10 was asked. 11 MR. FALLICK: I am going on to another question, your 12 Honor. 13 Q. In March 1999, did you give Taha's communication to anyone? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And in what form? 16 A. In the form of a letter. 17 Q. Who prepared the letter? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. What was in that letter? 20 A. It was the usual stuff about his family, about things 21 happening in America, about, you know, people's greetings and 22 also about what Taha was saying. 23 Q. Who did you give that letter to? 24 A. I am not quite sure if I gave it to Mohammed Yousry or to 25 Ms. Stewart. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10112 4C7MSAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Did you receive a reply to your letter to the Sheikh? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. From whom did you receive the reply? 4 A. I received the reply from Yousry. 5 Q. And after you received the reply from Mr. Yousry, what did 6 you do with the Sheikh's response? 7 A. I just, you know, wrote it down as usual. 8 I want to just explain something here. After the 9 visit, I would sit with the lawyers and Yousry or just with 10 Yousry alone and he will open his notebook and he will say, 11 this is what the Sheikh said and this is what the lawyers 12 approved. And he will just, you know, dictate to me what the 13 Sheikh said, and I will write it down. And then, you know, 14 that's it. 15 On that visit I believe we did the same thing. I 16 wrote down what the Sheikh wants to say to everybody. And I 17 took it and I send it to or I send it to whoever the 18 communication was to go to. 19 Q. You always refer to Mohammed Yousry as Yousry? 20 A. Yes. I always call him Yousry. 21 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, would this be a convenient 22 time to break? Because I am about to go into a transcript. 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to break now. We 25 are going to break for the day. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10113 4C7MSAT3 1 It is very important to follow all of my continuing 2 instructions. Please, please don't talk about this case at all 3 among yourselves or with anyone when you go home. Please 4 remember not to look at or listen to anything to do with the 5 case. If you should see or hear something inadvertently, 6 please simply disregard it. Don't look at or listen to 7 anything to do with the case. 8 Finally, always remember to keep an open mind until 9 you have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on 10 the law, you've gone to the jury room to begin your 11 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires 12 that you do that. 13 With that, have a good day and I look forward to 14 seeing you tomorrow morning at 9:30. 15 All rise, please. 16 (Jury not present) 17 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 18 MR. FALLICK: May I retrieve the exhibits, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: You may retrieve the exhibits. 20 Let me just talk to you all briefly. 21 (Page 10114 SEALED by order of the Court) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10115 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR 4 Direct By Mr. Fallick . . . . . . . . . . . 10022 5 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS 6 Exhibit No. Received 7 AS-25 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10089 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300