10373 4CD5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 13, 2004 8 9:42 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10374 4CD5SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, all. Please, be seated. 3 Good morning, all. I believe that Mr. Sattar is on the stand 4 and that we are, the next person to examine is Mr. Morvillo? 5 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. Your Honor, as far as 6 scheduling goes, Mr. Fallick and I spoke and he would request 7 that about every 45 to 50 minutes we take a break, so I will 8 try to stick to that schedule. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10375 4CD5SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: It is good to see you all, as always. 5 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 6 Mr. Fletcher? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 8 are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 10 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, continued. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may examine. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 13 CROSS EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, it's your understanding that Rifa'i Taha 16 considered the United States to be an enemy, right? 17 A. Do I consider Rifa'i Taha? 18 Q. Rifa'i Taha considered the United States of America to be 19 an enemy, correct? 20 A. I don't understand that he considered the United States to 21 be an enemy. I know he has, he has showed hostility toward the 22 United States. I know he -- or toward the United States 23 policies, but I really don't know if he considered the United 24 States to be an enemy. Maybe he said something, you know, in 25 that effect. Could be, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10376 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Didn't he sign Osama Bin Laden's fatwah in 1998 calling for 2 the murder of Americans everywhere? 3 A. Yes, he did. And this is, you know, he signed the fatwah 4 calling for the murder of Americans everywhere including me and 5 my kids and my wife too. 6 Of the fatwah we have, I read it, I heard about it, 7 and I did not agree with it. 8 Q. I was asking you about your understanding of Rifa'i Taha's 9 views. 10 A. Yes, he did. He did that. 11 Q. And so, it's fair to say that he considered the United 12 States of America to be his enemy? 13 A. I could say that, yes. 14 Q. And it's also your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman 15 considered the United States of America to be his enemy? 16 A. I really don't know that. 17 Q. You read his speeches? 18 A. I did read -- I did read, yes, some of his speeches during 19 the trial. I heard some of his speeches -- some of his 20 speeches in the mosques, yes. 21 Q. And didn't he repeatedly state in his speeches that the 22 United States is the enemy of Islam? 23 A. I don't know that. I know he criticized the United States 24 but, you know, I really don't recall that he stated that the 25 United States is an enemy of Islam. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10377 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Are you familiar with the speech by Abdel Rahman in which 2 he stated, there are two main enemies, the enemy who is at the 3 foremost of the work against Islam, are America and the allies? 4 MR. TIGAR: May we have a time? 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. TIGAR: When these things are read? 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. MORVILLO: I'm reading from Government Exhibit 9 200T, which is a speech given by Sheikh Abdel Rahman in 1992 10 and 1993. 11 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat that quotation again, 12 please? 13 Q. Certainly. There are two main enemies, the enemy who is at 14 the foremost of the work against Islam, are America and the 15 allies. 16 A. Yes. He is -- there is two more enemies You have to put 17 the -- as what I said about the Sheikh's speeches and you have 18 to put it in the context. 19 This, as what you said, this was in 1992, 1993. There 20 is, at this time, you have to look at the circumstances where 21 the Sheikh said those words. You know, I don't take it as he 22 is saying there is, you know, that the United States is an 23 enemy of Islam. He said there is two enemies working against 24 Muslims or Islam. 25 If I'm sitting there and listening to the whole speech SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10378 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 I will understand exactly. You are just taking, isolating one 2 quotation, isolating one thing from the Sheikh's speech and you 3 just saying it. 4 In my opinion, I don't think the Sheikh looked at the 5 United States as an enemy of Islam. He was living here when he 6 was saying that. Maybe he disagreed with some of the United 7 States' policies, yes, as many Muslims in the United States and 8 outside the United States would disagree with the United 9 States' foreign policy, especially in the middle east. 10 So when he is saying those things, you know, that's 11 probably what he meant. 12 Q. Yes, and he also called for the murder of Americans 13 everywhere, correct? 14 A. Yes, he did. He did. He did say that in that statement 15 that we showed here, yes. And I explained to you and I said 16 this is, you know, an angry statement he -- I do not agree with 17 it. 18 Q. And he also stated that it is forbidden to join the United 19 States Army because this is helping the American Army, enemies 20 of God and enemies of Islam, and that was a speech he gave in 21 the early '90s as well. Are you familiar with that? 22 A. He said that? 23 Q. It is forbidden to join the American Army? 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Because that's helping the American Army and that the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10379 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 American Army is an enemy of God and they're enemies of Islam. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar, is it your understanding that the United States 4 of America considered Rifa'i Taha to be a threat to national 5 security? 6 A. I don't think, you know, that I could, you know, back then 7 when I was speaking to Rifa'i Taha that Rifa'i Taha was a 8 threat to national security. I know that, you know, he had, he 9 was hostile to the -- he had some hostile views against the 10 United States and but, you know, a threat to national security 11 I don't -- I did not know that he was a threat to national 12 security. 13 Q. My question to you was, was it your understanding that the 14 United States government considered Rifa'i Taha to be a threat 15 to its national security? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. You are familiar with the fact that the United States 18 government designated him as a terrorist, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Is it your understanding that the United States -- 21 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we have a limiting 22 instruction with respect to this, what the United States 23 government did? 24 THE COURT: All right. This is received for the 25 witness' state of mind -- knowledge, intent and state of mind. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10380 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Is that correct? 2 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 3 MR. TIGAR: And not for the truth, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Not for the truth of the matters asserted 5 but for the witness' knowledge, intent and state of mind. 6 Correct? 7 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. The designation is in 8 evidence. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. MORVILLO: I'm not sure if the witness answered 11 the last question so may I pose it again, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: The reporter can read back the last full 13 question and answer and then there was the beginning of another 14 question. 15 (Record read) 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, is it also your understanding that the United 19 States government considered Sheikh Abdel Rahman to be a threat 20 to its national security? 21 A. I know that the Sheikh was designated as a terrorist, you 22 know, if that's what you mean. 23 Q. And so then it would be your understanding that the reason 24 why the United States did that is because they considered him 25 to be a threat to its national security? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10381 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. I don't know that, if the Sheikh was a threat to national 2 security. 3 Q. At the end of your testimony last week, Mr. Sattar, you 4 told us that you took an oath when you became a United States 5 citizen in 1989, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And as part of that oath you promised to support and defend 8 the constitution and laws of the United States of America 9 against all enemies, foreign and domestic, didn't you? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I approach? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, I've handed you what's been marked for 15 identification as Government Exhibit 800. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you seen this document before? 18 A. Have I seen it before? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And, did you have an opportunity to review it before your 22 testimony here? 23 A. Yes, I looked at it before. Yes. 24 Q. Does it fairly and accurately represent your knowledge with 25 respect to the individuals that you were talking to, their SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10382 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 aliases, and the places where they were located? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government would offer 4 Government Exhibit 800 as a demonstrative exhibit with respect 5 to Mr. Sattar. 6 MR. FALLICK: No objection, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 800 8 received in evidence as a demonstrative aid. 9 (Government's Exhibit 800 received in evidence) 10 MR. MORVILLO: May I display it to the jury, your 11 Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is Government Exhibit 800, it is a map, 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. There are indications on the map as to where various 17 individuals with whom you were speaking were located, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the map indicates with the telephone in the left-hand 20 corner New York City; and that's your name, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And if you go across, the United Kingdom, that's where 23 Yasir Al-Sirri was located? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And he lived in London, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10383 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. He lived in London, yes. 2 Q. And you're aware that he was a militant, too, right? 3 A. No, I am not aware that he was a militant. I am aware that 4 he was running an Islamic observation center or what he called 5 Islamic Observation Center. I'm aware that he were tried in 6 absentia in Egypt and he has a death penalty on, you know, was 7 issued against him like many others, Egyptians, who opposed the 8 Egyptian government. 9 Q. Does that sentence that was imposed upon him in Egypt, was 10 a result of an attempted assassination of Prime Minister Atif 11 Sidqi? 12 A. Yes, that was the allegation, yes. It was the charges 13 against him. 14 Q. And are you aware that he was also implicated in 15 kidnappings in Yemen? 16 A. No, I was not aware of that. 17 Q. Now, you testified that Mr. Al-Sirri runs the Islamic 18 Observation Center? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that's a website that he ran out of London, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And incidentally, that's the website on which you arranged 23 for the kill the Jews fatwah to be published, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. That's also, the Islamic Observation Center is also the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10384 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 organization that published Rifa'i Taha's book, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you consider Mr. Al-Sirri to be a responsible man? 4 A. From my dealing with him, yes. I never met Mr. Al-Sirri. 5 I dealt with him over the telephone. I spoke with him on the 6 phone. I never met him, I never seen him. I cannot say I 7 never seen him, I saw him on TV, so if this is considered 8 seeing him. 9 But, you know, from dealing with him on -- on the 10 phone, you know, I will probably -- my limited dealing with him 11 on certain things, yes, he was responsible. 12 Q. And, in particular, with respect to information that he 13 published on his website, he was responsible? 14 A. Most of it, yes. 15 Q. In other words, he didn't make up, as far as you knew, 16 information that he published and disseminated? 17 A. He was -- he will, you know, if somebody give a piece of 18 information to Al-Sirri he will publish it. He will ask, you 19 know, if this is true or not true and, you know, he will just 20 publish it. 21 I have no idea, you know, I cannot, you know, be 22 sitting here today and telling you that he go and check 23 thorough every piece of information that -- I don't know what 24 his methods of doing that. But I can speak about my dealing 25 with him. If I give him something and I say, I tell him its SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10385 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 true, he will publish it. 2 Q. And so, as far as you knew, he would not make up 3 information and just publish it on his website? 4 A. I don't know that. 5 Q. You knew that he had many, many sources for information, 6 right? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. And you were one of his sources, right? 9 A. I was. 10 Q. And Rifa'i Taha was one of his sources too, correct? 11 A. I think, yes. 12 Q. They were in touch, you knew from talking to Mr. Al- -- 13 A. Can you please slow down a little bit because I can't, you 14 know, I cannot following you. My brain is racing, my heart is 15 racing. I can't just keep following you if you are going that 16 fast, so, please. 17 Q. You knew that Rifa'i Taha and Yasir Al-Sirri spoke on the 18 telephone? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. And you knew that based on conversations that you had with 21 both Rifa'i Taha and with Yasir Al-Sirri? 22 A. I knew what? 23 Q. You knew that Taha and Al-Sirri were speaking because of 24 conversations that you had with each of those individuals? 25 A. They were speaking before even I get to know Rifa'i Taha. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10386 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 They were speaking before I get to know Yasir Al-Sirri is -- I 2 can't say, you know, yes, they were speaking because of 3 conversations that I had with them. 4 Q. All I'm saying, all I'm asking you, sir, is that you knew 5 that they were talking to one another? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. And, in fact, it was Yasir Al-Sirri who put you in touch 8 with Rifa'i Taha? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And over the years, after you got to know Mr. Al-Sirri, he 11 often gave you advice about using the media in connection with 12 the work that you were doing? 13 A. Yes, he did. Sometimes. 14 Q. And Yasir Al-Sirri, as indicated on the chart, you referred 15 to as Abu Ammar, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And "Abu" means "father of"? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. But "Abu" can also be a code name, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And, in fact, there is a call that you put into evidence in 22 which you refer to the fact that Abu is our code names. Are 23 you familiar with that call? 24 A. I'm sorry? 25 Q. Are you familiar with the call that you put into evidence, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10387 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 3T, in which you stated that an Abu name 2 is a code name? 3 A. I'm not familiar with that. If I can see it, please? 4 Q. Sure. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Ahmed Sattar 6 Exhibit AS-3T, in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, there was a conversation that you had with 9 Mr. El-Shafey, is that correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And directing your attention to this attribution right 12 here? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You say: Plus Abu... they simply mentioned his code name? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That's you saying that they only use the Abu name for that 17 particular individual and that that was a code name? 18 A. That was a code name for this particular individual? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Abu Ammar is you? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And Ammar is your eldest son, so? 24 A. Yes, so I am Abu Ammar because I have a son named Ammar. 25 Yasir Al-Sirri does not have a son named Ammar, but. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10388 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Right. 2 A. But, in the Arabic culture also there are certain names. 3 If you see Yasir Al-Sirri and if you also look at Yassir 4 Arafat, both of them have the same name. Yasir and Yasir and 5 both of them they're, if you want to say, you know, the people 6 call them as Abu Ammar. Abu Ammar, it goes all the way back 7 1400 years ago during wars, Yasir was a companion of the 8 Prophet and his name was Yasir Abu Ammar. So, from that point 9 there are certain names, when you have that name, people 10 automatically call you such. 11 So, like for an example, a name like Abdel Manem, 12 M-A-N-E-M, if your name is Abdel Manem, automatically you will 13 be called Abu Ismail. 14 So, there are certain names that like you don't have 15 to be a son. 16 So to be called Abu such or Abu such, you know, if you 17 have this name, people will automatically call you that with 18 that name. 19 So, it's not -- it doesn't have to be a code name. 20 Q. But it can be a code name? 21 A. Yes, it could be, yes. 22 Q. Now, you testified that Mr. Al-Sirri introduced you to 23 Rifa'i Taha, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that was sometime in 1998? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10389 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. I believe, yes, it was in 1998. Late '98. 2 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 3 Exhibit 800 again, in evidence? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 Q. And it was your understanding that Rifa'i Taha was in 6 Afghanistan, right? 7 A. At the time I was not quite sure where when I was 8 introduced to him where he was, exactly. 9 Q. Well -- 10 A. But I came to know later on, yes, that he was in 11 Afghanistan, yes. 12 Q. You certainly suspected it, right? 13 A. Yes, I did. I did suspected it. 14 Q. And, in fact, you read many articles about Rifa'i Taha and 15 many of those articles refer to him as being in Afghanistan? 16 A. Yes. And many articles too, they were referring to him 17 that he's been in Switzerland, he is in Iran. 18 You know, I had -- they were not definite where he was 19 but I did suspect, yes, I can say that I did suspect that he 20 was in Afghanistan. 21 Q. And, in fact, in Government Exhibit 1002X, in evidence, the 22 fact that he was in Afghanistan was discussed, wasn't it? 23 A. Could be. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 25 Government Exhibit 1002X, in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10390 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you can please go to page 22. 3 Mr. Sattar, do you see on the screen Government 4 Exhibit 1002X? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And this is a conversation that you connected between 7 Rifa'i Taha and Muntasir Al-Zayat? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And so the way this conversation was set up, just so we are 10 clear was that, as usual, Taha would call you in New York and 11 then you would use your conference calling technology on your 12 telephone and call Egypt, which is where Mr. Al-Zayat was, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And during this call, do you see where on lines -- starting 16 on line 11 -- actually, starting on line 8, Mr. Al-Zayat says 17 that they are worried that the atmosphere in which you live -- 18 when he says they he is referring to the prisoners? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Could have influenced your behavior or the way you think 21 eh, eh, the people around you, eh, the people of Taliban, of 22 Bin Laden of Al-Zawahiri. And so, I mean, they are worried 23 that the atmosphere in which you live has a negative influence 24 on the way you make decisions or the way you think. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10391 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. That was pretty clear to you that he was in Afghanistan? 2 A. Yes. That is what I said. I mean I don't know the date of 3 this conversation but, you know, I said I came to know when I 4 first -- when I first, you know, spoke to Rifa'i Taha I did not 5 know where he was but I came to know later on that he was in 6 Afghanistan through the many calls that I connected him or, you 7 know, I got. 8 Q. And in fact you knew that the Taliban was the ruling party 9 in Afghanistan, right? 10 A. Yes. Who doesn't? I mean. 11 Q. And that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan and Al-Zawahiri was 12 in Afghanistan, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The people of Bin Laden, that would be Al-Qaeda? 15 A. No, the people of -- there is nothing about the people of 16 Bin Laden. It says the people of Taliban. I don't know the 17 people of Bin Laden. 18 Q. It says the people of Taliban, of Bin laden of Al-Zawahiri, 19 right? 20 A. No, he is talking about the Taliban right here. I don't 21 know anything about Al-Qaeda. I don't know if the people of 22 Bin Laden are Al-Qaeda so I cannot say. 23 Q. You know that Bin laden is the head of the terrorist 24 organization Al-Qaeda, right? 25 A. Now I do. I mean after September 11th, of course I do. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10392 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you knew at the time this call happened, too, didn't 2 you? 3 A. I mean? I'm sorry? 4 Q. You knew at the time that this call happened, didn't you? 5 A. When the time of that call happened, yes, there were some 6 reports and -- about him, as a leader of Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda, I 7 mean, I got to know this like late on just through my readings 8 and through some information that I get, not first-hand 9 information. It is just, you know, reading, mainly. 10 So, you know, to sit here and say that I know that, 11 you know, he is referring here to the people of Taliban, of Bin 12 Laden, it's like that he is referring to Al-Qaeda, I really 13 don't know. 14 Q. But it was your understanding that Bin laden was the head 15 of Al-Qaeda at this time? 16 A. At this time I know that Bin Laden has an organization 17 named Al-Qaeda, yes. 18 Q. And you had read the indictment at this time naming Bin 19 laden as a defendant in connection with the embassy bombings 20 case, right? 21 A. Yes. This is what I meant by reading through readings. I 22 read the indictment, I read the newspapers. I know that he 23 was, he had an organization called Al-Qaeda and this is all I 24 know about it. 25 Q. And incidentally, Al-Qaeda means the base? That's the way SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10393 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 you translate it? 2 A. It is, means -- yes, the base. Military base. 3 Q. Military base. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to the first page of this 6 transcript? 7 Just so we are clear, Mr. Sattar, this call occurred 8 on December 12th of 1998? 9 A. Okay. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display again for the 11 jury Government Exhibit 800? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. As you can see from the chart, Mr. Sattar, you knew Rifa'i 14 Taha as Abu Yasir, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That was one of his aliases? 17 A. I didn't know him with any other name except, you know, a 18 description of him, you know, that his name was Abu Yasir. 19 This is the only name that I know. 20 Q. And you also knew him as Abu Ahmed? 21 A. Abu Ahmed. 22 Q. Abu Ahmed. 23 A. That was just, you know, a name given to him, you know, in 24 that period of time that when he was connecting -- when I was 25 connecting him to Atia. He says we are going to refer to him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10394 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 as Abu Ahmed but that was not a name that, you know, I used or 2 anybody else used except for that occasion. 3 Q. Right. And on that occasion that was really a true code 4 name, right? 5 A. Yes, it was. It was a code name, yes. 6 Q. And, in fact, Abu Yasir was a code name too, right? 7 A. I really don't know. 8 Q. Well, you knew that Rifa'i Taha didn't have any children 9 named Yasir, right? 10 A. I, I did not know that. I thought he had a child named 11 Yasir. I was under the impression that's why they called him 12 Abu Yasir. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 14 Government Exhibit 1040X, in evidence? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone call over your telephone 17 number on November 14th of 1999? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Between a call that you connected Rifa'i Taha to Sa'ad 20 Hasaballah? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And incidentally, Sa'ad Hasaballah is an attorney in Egypt, 23 right? 24 A. Yes, he is. 25 Q. And during this call, Ms. Griffith, if you could go to. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10395 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 2? 2 Mr. Hasaballah and Rifa'i Taha are talking about their 3 children and Rifa'i Taha says, he names his children and he 4 says they are Ammar, Safya, and Rofayda, Taha and Ahmed, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. No Yasir, right? 7 A. I don't see any Yasir but, you know, it doesn't mean, I 8 mean -- I really don't know. I was, as I told you, I was 9 always under the impression that he has a child named Yasir. 10 Q. But, he talked about his five children and didn't name one 11 Yasir? 12 A. Mr. Morvillo, you cannot just isolate something here and 13 say that you know, a call that happened in 1999, five years 14 ago, six years ago and say you know but you knew. I'm sitting 15 here, I'm telling you what I know. There was, there is a 16 conversation here as what I said. I listened to some of it. 17 Some of it I did not listen to and I really don't know that if 18 he has a child named Yasir or not. I was under the impression 19 that he had a child named Yasir. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 21 Exhibit 800 again? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, let's talk about Mustafa Hamza. 24 You testified on direct that you did not know that 25 Yunis was Mustafa Hamza, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10396 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. I did not know for sure that he was Mustafa Hamza, no. 2 Q. But you certainly suspected it, right? 3 A. I certainly -- I did not know exactly who he was. I did 4 not know that Yunis was Mustafa Hamza. I knew that he was 5 somebody, you know, in the Islamic Group but who he exactly, 6 who is the person exactly is I really did not -- didn't know. 7 Q. Well, in your direct testimony you said that he could have 8 been a Joe Schmoe as far as you knew, right? 9 A. Yes. Yes. 10 Q. But you knew, didn't you, that he was emir of the Islamic 11 Group? 12 A. I knew that he could have been a Joe Schmoe from the 13 Islamic Group, or I did not say Joe Schmoe from the street or 14 any Joe Schmoe. He is Joe Schmoe from the Islamic Group, 15 that's what I meant. 16 Q. And you knew that he was one of the high-ranking leaders of 17 the group, right? 18 A. Yes. Probably, yes. 19 Q. And you knew that another name that he went by was Abu 20 Hazim? 21 A. I know some, yes. 22 Q. In fact, in the letter that you sent to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 23 in May of 2000 you said to him that you have been in 24 semi-constant contact with, among others, Abu Yasir and Abu 25 Hazim, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10397 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And when you said Abu Hazim, you were referring to Yunis? 3 A. Yes. And I was -- that's why I said in semi contact. I 4 did not believe that I was in direct contact. If you remember, 5 you know, some of the calls that were played, I -- when I 6 sent -- when first I sent to Rifa'i -- to Yunis asking to get 7 in touch with Abu Hazim I did not know that Yunis was Abu 8 Hazim. I send to him asking him if he can get in touch with 9 Abu Hazim during the Atia thing. 10 And he came, in his conversation he is talking about 11 Abu Hazim in the third-person. So, I was, you know, I did not 12 know that Abu Hazim was Yunis. And until this minute I'm just 13 sitting here, I really, you know, this whole thing is just 14 confusing to me. You know, I mean, you come and, you know, to 15 say that Abu Hazim, that Yunis is Mustafa Hamza, I will say 16 yes, okay. Because whether is he Mustafa Hamza or not doesn't 17 make a difference here now sitting here. But back then I 18 didn't know who Mustafa Hamza was or if Yunis was Mustafa Hamza 19 or not. 20 Q. And you certainly suspected it as you were having all these 21 calls with a high-ranking member of the Islamic Group called 22 Yunis, right? 23 A. Yes, I suspected that he was a high-ranking member. 24 Q. You suspected that it was Mustafa Hamza, didn't you? 25 A. Does I suspect he was Mustafa Hamza, I could just, you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10398 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 know, thought maybe he was Mustafa Hamza but I was not sure 2 that Rifa'i Taha -- I mean, Yunis is Mustafa Hamza. I'm not 3 sure Yunis was Mustafa Hamza is what I told you and I still 4 believe until today. 5 Q. You never asked him, right? 6 A. I don't think I ever asked him if he was Mustafa Hamza. 7 Q. And you never asked Rifa'i Taha, right? You never asked 8 Rifa'i Taha if Yunis was Mustafa Hamza? 9 A. I don't think I did. 10 Q. You didn't really care one way or another, right? 11 A. No, I didn't care one way or another who he is. 12 Q. Now, incidentally it is Rifa'i Taha who put you in touch 13 with Mustafa Hamza, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10399 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You suspected that Yunis also was in Afghanistan, right? 2 A. I did, yes. 3 Q. Now, going down the list of the people in Afghanistan with 4 whom you spoke, Mohammad Abdel Rahman is another person whom 5 you spoke with right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That is Sheikh Abdel Rahman's son? 8 A. Yes, he is. 9 Q. And he goes by the name of Hasaballah? 10 A. Yes, he is known by the name of Hasabalah. 11 Q. And sometimes you refer to him as Sa'ad? 12 A. Sa'ad, yes. 13 Q. Now, it is not on the list here on the exhibit, Government 14 Exhibit 800, but Sheikh Abdel Rahman had another son Ahmed? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. He was with Mohammad in Afghanistan? 17 A. I am not sure if he was with him, but I know he was in 18 Afghanistan. 19 Q. His other name was Sayfalah? 20 A. Yes, Sayfalah. Sayfalah means line of Allah, and Sayfalah 21 means the sword of Allah, and he picked these names during the 22 fight in Afghanistan. 23 Q. Just for the record, Sayfalah is spelled S A Y F A L A H? 24 A. It could be S A Y F or S A F Y. 25 Q. Incidentally, Mr. Sattar, do you know how his son spells SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10400 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 his last name? 2 A. I know he left Egypt, went there sometimes during the fight 3 against the Soviet Union. I don't know how or the exact 4 circumstances, I don't. 5 Q. Now, directing your attention back to Government Exhibit 6 800 and looking at Egypt and the individuals with whom you 7 spoke who were located in Egypt, the top of the list is Salah 8 Hashim? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And he was also known as the engineer, right? 11 A. Yes, because he is a real engineer. 12 Q. And sometimes the engineer in Suhaj? 13 A. So imagine that means, you know, the engineer from Suhaj. 14 Suhaj is a city in South Egypt about 300, 400 miles 15 from Cairo. 16 Q. You also knew Salah Hashim as Abu Nadhara? 17 A. Yes, they referred to him as am mean, his people referred 18 to him as Abu Zarzur, and from what I understand, he wears 19 glasses, so sometimes when somebody wears glasses, Abu Nadhara 20 means the one who wears the glasses. 21 Q. Incidentally, he was one of the founders of the Islamic 22 Group, right? 23 A. Yes, from what I read and what I seen, what I have seen, 24 yes. 25 Q. You knew that at the time you were speaking to him over the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10401 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 telephone, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Montasser al-Zayyat was also in Egypt, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. He was sometimes referred to during these calls as Zarzur? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That means a little bird? 8 A. Means a little bird, yeah. Al-Zayyat, I have seen his 9 picture. He is big. 10 Q. You have met him, haven't you? 11 A. I am not quite sure if I met him. I know he was here in 12 1990, but I am not quite sure if I met him or I did not meet 13 him. I am not quite sure, but I seen him here in 1990. But 14 meeting him personally, I am not sure. 15 Q. You saw him here? 16 A. Yes, I saw him in 1990 in the mosque here. 17 Q. And you also saw him and the Taha trial? 18 A. Yes. I am not quite sure if I met him, I went there and 19 introduced myself to him but I saw him, yes. 20 Q. When you said Atia, you are referring to Raziq, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, the third name on the list is Alaa Abdul Raziq Atia? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And he was also referred to during these telephone calls as 25 Mr. Hamab? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10402 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, and also as Hamab Badarway? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Those were aliases, right? 4 A. Yes, I believe so. 5 Q. And the people who you dealt with in connection with Atia 6 were Hani? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And he referred to himself as Fawzi? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The first time or first few times you spoke with him, 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. He didn't use his real name? 14 A. I still don't know if Hani is his real name or Fawzi is the 15 real name. I really don't know. 16 Q. And also Hamab Ahmad Sharif? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Dr. Ismail? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. These are people with whom you dealt when you were taking 21 calls with Atia and Taha, right? 22 A. This is the people that had the telephone that I used to 23 call. In Egypt it is not like in the United States, you know, 24 not everybody has a phone so, you know, it could be one in a 25 hundred. So these people had the phones where I was calling. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10403 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You dealt with other people as well that are not on the 2 list in connection with Atia. There was a person named 3 Montasser? 4 A. Yes, I spoke to him. 5 Q. Just a few times, right? 6 A. Once or two times. 7 Q. He is the one, in fact, who told you he had been shot? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In fact, he told you that Atia was in the hospital, right? 10 A. He says yes, he could be, he could be in the hospital, yes. 11 Q. You understood what he was saying was that he was in jail, 12 right? 13 A. I understood that he was either arrested or he could be in 14 the hospital or he was something bigger happened so he could be 15 arrested or killed. 16 Q. You understood that the word "hospital" meant "jail"? 17 A. Yes, this is what -- you know, if you listen to the calls, 18 all right, those people here, Atia and his people were making 19 their own words and tell me about it. 20 We see things, they were making their own words, 21 trying to protect themselves in Egypt, I believe, or I was 22 under the impression they were trying to do that. He made 23 those words, and I understood, yes, the hospital means jail. 24 Q. There was also another individual name Hisham you spoke 25 with? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10404 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, that is what Atia was staying at. 2 Q. Now, you made hundreds of telephone calls during the 1998 3 to 2002 period overseas, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Those calls were extremely expensive, weren't they? 6 A. Yes, they were expensive, but not every -- most of those 7 calls that I did, like when Taha calls me, I am not billed for 8 that or Yunis called, I am not billed for that. My bills were 9 just when I call Egypt. 10 Q. Very frequently when Taha or Yunis would call you, you 11 would conference in someone in Egypt? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So you would get charged for the part of the call that was 14 the conference call, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. It is fair to say that you spent thousands of dollars a 17 year on telephone calls? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. You paid those bills, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 (Pause) 22 A. Since we're talking about the bills, I did struggle with 23 the bills, yes. 24 Q. I am sorry? 25 A. I did struggle paying the bills. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10405 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. But you spent thousands of dollars a year? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. To facilitate these calls? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that Sheikh Abdel 6 Rahman came to the United States in 1990? 7 A. Yes, I didn't believe. 8 Q. And you knew at the time he came here, he was regarded as 9 the emir of the Islamic Group, right? 10 A. No, I did not know was recorded as the emir of the Islam 11 group. I know per se -- I did not know the Islamic Group. I 12 knew he was regarded as as far as a high, respected ranking of 13 that Islamic movement in Egypt. 14 Which group exactly I did not know at the time. 15 Q. At the time you in 1990? 16 A. In 1990 when he was here, no, I did not know that he was 17 associated with the Islamic Group. As what I told you, I know 18 there were Islamic groups, in a plural term. 19 Q. Right, but you came to know that he was, in fact, the emir 20 of the Islamic Group? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Would you agree with me that the Islamic Group is a 23 terrorist organization? 24 A. I do agree with you it is a terrorist organization, yes. 25 Q. That is not my question. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10406 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 My question is, in your opinion, is the Islamic Group 2 a terrorist organization? 3 A. In my opinion, the Islamic Group committed violence. In my 4 opinion, the Islamic Group did very bad acts in Egypt. In my 5 opinion, the Islamic Group committed atrocities, yes, in Egypt 6 but I am an Egyptian. I came from Egypt. I have seen bad 7 things happening in Egypt not just by the Islamic Group but by 8 the Egyptian government also. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Objection and move to strike. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. It is stricken. The last 11 sentence is stricken. 12 A. Mr. Morvillo, I put things in context. I cannot -- the 13 things that are happening to people in Egypt happen to me or to 14 my loved ones -- 15 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar, please listen to the question 16 and answer the question as asked. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 THE COURT: The last response stricken. 19 BY MR. MORVILLO: 20 Q. The Islamic Group carried out terrorist attacks, yes or no? 21 A. Yes, they did. 22 Q. Now, you knew that the Islamic Group was formed in the 23 early '70s in Egypt, right? 24 A. Yeah, from what I heard, yes. 25 Q. Their goal was to overthrow the Egyptian government, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10407 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. Their goal was to establish an Islamic government. 2 Q. The means that they chose to accomplish that goal were 3 through violence, right? 4 A. No, the means was not just through violence. 5 This is the difference between the Islamic Group and 6 other groups, you know? Other groups, you know, they say that 7 they want to overthrow the government or change from the top to 8 the bottom. 9 If you read the Islamic Group charter or you go 10 through their visions, you know, what they are saying in their 11 literature and their videotapes, they say they have to work 12 from the bottom up, and if this is, if this did not work, yes, 13 they could use other means, but I cannot say that this is what 14 they are aiming at, overthrowing the government. It is 15 changing the society and the government so that in their way 16 they will do it that way, yes. 17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, respectfully I request a 18 limiting instruction with respect to questions and answers 19 concerning historical events in Egypt, if they are offered for 20 the purposes of the earlier limiting instruction. 21 THE COURT: All right. Historical events are offered 22 for this witness' -- 23 MR. MORVILLO: Yes. 24 THE COURT: -- knowledge, intent and state of mind and 25 not for the truth of those matters, all right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10408 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 BY MR. MORVILLO: 2 Q. The installation of an Islamic government in Egypt -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- was a government that would be conducted under the law 5 of sharia? 6 A. It will be under the Islamic Group, sharia, yes. 7 Q. What does sharia mean? 8 A. Sharia means the law. Basically, you know, when I say 9 sharia means the law, Islamic law, and it is based on the -- 10 sharia is based on the Koran, the sunnah, the traditional 11 prophet Mohammed, peace and blessing be upon him, Islamic 12 jurisprudence, you know, from the old -- try to visualize it, 13 you know, to help you and what we call comparison, to compare 14 between one situation and another. 15 Q. Under a sharia form of government or under an Islamic 16 government, the leader of that would be a religious figure, 17 right? 18 A. No. 19 Q. No? 20 A. No, he is not. It is not necessary to be a religious 21 figure, at least in my understanding. 22 The head of the government could be anybody who is 23 qualified to do, and definite not Sheikh Abdel Rahman because 24 he is not qualified. As a blind man, he is not -- in Islamic 25 law, he is not qualified to rule. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10409 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Anybody who could be an engineer, could be a doctor, 2 could be a lawyer, anybody who is qualified to rule could rule. 3 That is why when I say I support an Islamic state, to see an 4 Islamic state in Egypt, not theocracy, to have a religious 5 figure on top of the government, this is, you know, I consider 6 it theocracy, and this is not, in my opinion, an Islamic state. 7 Q. What the Islamic group was trying to accomplish was to 8 install a government headed by a religious figure, right? 9 A. I didn't know that. 10 Q. Whether the head of the government would be a religious 11 figure, there would be a very prominent role for religion in a 12 government that is an Islamic government, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You would need to have someone to assure that the policies 15 of that government were carried out in accordance with the law 16 of Islam, right? 17 A. Yes. You know, if I can just make it, you know, try to 18 make it clear here, at least in my understanding of an Islamic 19 government, yes, you have to have somebody who understands 20 Islamic law, will be a religious scholar, will be from a 21 committee of judges or whatever. 22 It is like you have the headlines and you have the 23 interpretation that will be interpreted by some Islamic 24 scholars, but it doesn't mean that they rule themselves. 25 Q. So the Islamic Group itself needed a leader or an emir who SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10410 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 was a religious group? 2 A. Who was a religious figure, yes. 3 Yes, they did need somebody, according to my reading, 4 in their charter and according to the books that they were 5 published about them and in their -- you know, the leaders of 6 the Islamic Group themselves say that on videotapes they were 7 telling that story of how they formed the group and how they 8 choose Omar Abdel Rahman to be their leader because of his 9 religious knowledge. 10 Q. And the group needed a leader that was a religious figure 11 to make sure that its conduct and policies were carried out in 12 accordance with the law of Islam, right? 13 A. This is what they claim, yes. 14 Q. And that means that before a terrorist operation is 15 conducted, they need to get a fatwah from the religious leader 16 to make sure that what they're doing is religiously approved, 17 right? 18 A. I don't know that. I don't -- I mean, I can't say, you 19 know, what -- they don't talk in that specific, you know, I 20 mean about what they're going to do, who is going to issue a 21 religious fatwah or whatever. They don't say that. 22 What I know is they needed somebody to have -- they 23 were -- the thing I read was in historic context or when they 24 were talking, they were talking about the past, things they did 25 in the past, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10411 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. But as you testified on direct examination, under the law 2 of Islam, you will be punished for things you do bad and you'll 3 be rewarded for things you do good, right? 4 A. This is my religious beliefs, yes. 5 Q. And that the religious beliefs of the Islamic Group as 6 well; in other words, this is Islam? 7 A. I can speak, Mr. Morvillo, I can speak about my own 8 religious beliefs. I can speak about the things that I believe 9 in. I cannot speak about what the Islamic Group believes in. 10 I can tell you what I read about. 11 Q. All I am asking for, Mr. Sattar, is your understanding. 12 A. My understanding that you will be punished if you do 13 something bad? Of course. If you do something good, you will 14 be rewarded in the hereafter, yes, I do believe that and I 15 believe this is my understanding that Islam tells me that, yes. 16 Q. And killing people is bad, right? 17 A. Of course it is bad. Killing innocent people is bad. 18 Killing, my religion teaches me that killing one innocent soul 19 is killing, it is like the whole humanity. 20 Q. And 58 people in Luxor who were killed were innocent souls, 21 right? 22 A. They were innocent souls, yes. 23 Q. And they were killed by members of the Islamic Group, 24 right? 25 A. They were killed by members of the Islamic Group, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10412 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And so the people who carried out that attack believed that 2 what they were doing was okay, right, in your opinion? 3 A. In my opinion? I don't know what was in their mind, but 4 you know what? There is nothing in my opinion that would 5 justify the killing of 58 innocent people. It doesn't matter 6 who did it. If Sheikh Abdel Rahman himself did it, I would 7 stand up and tell him no, what you did, that is not right. 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, what is a martyr? 9 A. A martyr? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. A martyr, in Islam, or in my opinion? 12 Q. In your opinion? 13 A. In my opinion, a martyr is somebody who died for a cause, 14 you know? At least this is how we define it here. 15 Q. In Rafa'l Taha's book, he stated that the six individuals 16 who carried out the Luxor attack were martyrs, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you viewed Atia as a martyr, right? 19 A. I viewed Atia was a martyr, yes. He was killed in cold 20 blood -- 21 Q. And you -- 22 THE COURT: Stop, stop. Let the witness finish the 23 answer. 24 A. -- he was killed in cold blood. Atia was killed, from what 25 I know, while he was sleeping. That is why anybody -- Atia, if SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10413 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Atia had his day in court and was convicted to death, I would 2 not consider him a martyr. If you shoot somebody while he is 3 sleeping, in my opinion, he is a martyr. 4 Q. You testified, did you not, it is your understanding that 5 Atia was involved in the Luxor attack, right? 6 A. Yes, I said I understand now, from what I saw during this 7 trial, that conversation that Mr. Fallick played, yes. 8 Q. At the time you were having these conversations, you knew 9 Atia was a military leader of the Islamic Group in Egypt, 10 right? 11 A. Yes, yes, I know he was the Islamic Group military leader, 12 yes, I knew that. I also knew -- please. 13 Q. And the military leader of the Islamic group? 14 A. Yes, is the part of the group that carries out terrorist 15 operations, right? 16 Q. Yes. You considered him to be a martyr, right? 17 A. I consider anybody who is killed in cold blood a martyr, 18 not just Atia. 19 Q. Whether they're a terrorist or not? 20 A. Whether they're a terrorist or not. A terrorist has to 21 have his day in court, too, Mr. Morvillo. Atia did not. I 22 wanted Atia to have his day in court. The Egyptian government 23 did not give him his chance. The Egyptian government acted 24 like the judge, the jury and the executer. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I object to that and move SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10414 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 to strike. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 3 BY MR. MORVILLO: 4 Q. Now, getting back to the Islamic Group -- 5 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may we take a break? 6 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll 7 break for 10 minutes. Please remember my continuing 8 instructions, please don't talk about the case at all, always 9 remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all of the 10 evidence, I have instructed you on the law and you have gone to 11 the jury room at the beginning of the deliberations. 12 (Jury excused) 13 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar, you may step down. Let me 14 talk to the lawyers. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 (Sealed sidebar can be found under separate cover) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10416 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: All right, please be seated, all.@ 3 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. Ladies and gentlemen, you 4 may be seated. 5 (Pause) 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: Please be seated. Mr. Sattar is on the 8 stand. Mr. Fletcher. 9 THE CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you're reminded you're still 10 under oath. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may resume. 13 BY MR. MORVILLO: 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, let's talk about fatwah, okay? 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Part of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's responsibilities as the emir 17 of the Islamic Group, as you understood it, was to issue 18 fatwas, right? 19 A. Part of his responsibilities is to, according to what the 20 Islamic Group people were saying, is to -- if there is, if 21 there is a conflict between the two factions, is to solve these 22 problems, and if you have any different opinions, to go back to 23 him. This is what I read and I understood from what I read 24 about the Islamic Group and the Shiites rule in Islam. 25 Q. And he would resolve disputes, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10417 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 A. He would resolve disputes, yes. 2 Q. What is a fatwah? 3 A. A fatwah is a nonbinding religious opinion. 4 Q. It's a religious opinion? 5 A. It is a nonbinding religious opinion, yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the 7 display to the jury Government Exhibit 2077 in evidence? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. MORVILLO: You would go to the 4th page. At the 10 bottom there is a question and answer. Do you have that. 11 BY MR. MORVILLO: 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is an exhibit that was seized from your 13 apartment. The question is -- it is a question-and-answer 14 session with Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. The question is, is it right to commit suicide for the 17 purpose of jihad, like strapping explosives to one's body and 18 detonating them among the enemies and dying with them, and 19 Sheikh Abdel Rahman answered this question: "If you wish to do 20 something like that, come to me and ask me and get a fatwah 21 approval by agreeing to it or not." 22 That is what he said, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 25 Government Exhibit 2044? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10418 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 BY MR. MORVILLO: 3 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recognize this? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. This is an interview with Mustafa Hamza? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That was found in your apartment, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. This is something that you clipped? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 12 Government Exhibit 2044 T? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. MORVILLO: Would you go to the 6th page of that 15 translation. Highlight the question above the -- 16 Q. This was an interview with Mustafa Hamza, in which he was 17 asked how can you explain killing tourists, raiding jewelry 18 stores in such operations, and Mustafa Hamza answered in every 19 moment and action, the group starts off by consulting with the 20 righteous Olama. What is Olama? 21 A. Olama, as we pronounce in Arabic, Olama means scholars in a 22 plural term. 23 Q. We did not initiate any of this without fatwas from our 24 trusted Olama. When fatwas are provided, you study the 25 advantages and drawbacks and then the capability to carry out SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10419 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 Olama. 2 It is your you understanding, Mr. Sattar, that what 3 plus Mustafa Hamza was saying here is that when they are going 4 to carry out a terrorist operation, they get a fatwah first, 5 right? 6 A. This is what he is saying here. 7 Q. It is your understanding that fatwas are important because 8 they are authoritative statements by religious leaders 9 declaring what is and is not Islamically permissible? 10 A. I don't know if it is I could say authoritative. I could 11 say fatwah, it is, it is, yes, it is important in Islamic 12 jurisprudence. There is hundreds if not thousands of fatwas, 13 you know, coming every year. Every scholar could come out and 14 just, you know, express his opinion and his opinion will be 15 considered a fatwah, but, you know, authoritative, I'm not 16 quite sure what you mean by that. 17 Q. Well, if someone in the Islamic Group is going to carry out 18 a terrorist attack, they want to make sure they had permission 19 or a fatwah from a religious leader so that they would not be 20 punished for it in the afterlife, right? -- 21 A. If you say so. 22 Q. That is your understanding? 23 A. I really don't know. 24 Q. On direct examination, you testified about the word jihad? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10420 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you said jihad could be by the word, jihad could be by 2 hand, jihad could be by intention, you see something and you 3 dislike it, you hate it and you just hate it in your heart, 4 that is a jihad. Talking and expressing your opinion against 5 oppressor, that is a jihad. Fighting in the battlefield is 6 jihad also? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you recall giving that testimony? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And so just so I'm clear on what you mean, is that the act 11 of opposing something you hate is jihad? 12 A. The act of? 13 Q. Opposing? 14 A. Something that you hate, yes. 15 Q. Is jihad? 16 A. The act of opposing just, you know, if you hear something 17 inside you in your heart, you know, just hate it and you stay 18 away, you struggle with yourself to stay away from it, it is a 19 jihad, yes, in my opinion, it is a jihad. My understanding of 20 Islam, it is a jihad. 21 Q. You knew that in Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion, jihad meant 22 fighting, right? 23 A. I know something, in Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion, many 24 things that you know he will say it and I will not agree with 25 it, and I give you some examples before or I gave Mr. Fallick SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10421 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 some examples of the things I disagree with him. 2 In his opinion, he could come and say jihad is only by 3 hand, and I will tell him that you are wrong, you are mistaken 4 because this is not what other scholars or me personally 5 understand it. 6 Q. Right, but he's your father, your imam, mentor, your 7 brother, your friend and your associate, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you understood, you understood that he said that jihad 10 is by the sword, right? 11 A. I understood that he interpreted it this way, okay? 12 And he interpreted it also, in many other -- he cannot 13 just take one lecture or sermon and say this is what he meant 14 it. 15 I see in him speaking about this. He gave some 16 interviews, and he's interpreting jihad the way I just told 17 you. I don't know what you are trying to refer to, okay, but, 18 you know, from what I understand, I see the Sheikh speaking 19 about jihad, and he said exactly what I told you, and I see him 20 speaking about jihad in other lectures, and he says it is by 21 the sword. 22 It doesn't mean it is only by the sword, and if he is 23 saying that, it doesn't matter if he is my father, my imam, my 24 mentor, my associate or my friend. When it comes to religion, 25 there is no father, there is no associate, there is no friend, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10422 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 he is wrong. 2 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 3 Government Exhibit 204 T in evidence? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 BY MR. MORVILLO: 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is an exhibit that was introduced in 7 Sheikh Abdel Rahman's trial, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you recognize it? 10 A. I see it, yes. 11 Q. You have seen it before, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Would you go to Page 22 and highlight 14 the first attribution to Rahman. 15 BY MR. MORVILLO: 16 Q. In this speech he said, how ingenious (audience laugh). I 17 have never imagined such minds could exist in Denmark. Then he 18 said jihad is jihad, my brother, there is no such thing as 19 commerce, industry and science in jihad. This is calling 20 things with other than by its own names. If God, glory be to 21 him, says do jihad, it means do jihad with the sword, with the 22 cannon, with the grenades and with the missile; this is jihad. 23 Jihad against God's end means for God's cause and his word. We 24 can't say that commerce, industry and science are jihad, not at 25 all. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10423 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 He said that, right? 2 A. Yes, because -- I am sitting here, I will not say that 3 commerce or industry or science is jihad. Jihad is what I told 4 you is by -- in my understanding, is by the sword -- by the 5 hand, by the speaking out and by your intention, what you 6 are -- what you hate, what you are struggling inside yourself 7 against, this is jihad, too. 8 Q. You knew that Abdel Rahman knew was that jihad meant 9 fighting, right? 10 A. It is not only Sheikh Abdel Rahman's view, this is an 11 Islamic concept. Jihad would mean fighting. If you go to the 12 Quran and if you read the Quran, and you will see jihad in the 13 Quran, the Quran refers to jihad as fighting also. 14 So it is not just his concept. This is a huge Islamic 15 jurisprudence thing. It is not -- you cannot just describe it 16 in word one word. 17 Q. I am asking you about your understanding of Sheikh Abdel 18 Rahman's opinion, not about your opinion of jihad, but your 19 understanding of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion? 20 A. My understanding of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion right 21 here in this sermon or in general? 22 Q. In this sermon? 23 A. In this sermon, he is talking about jihad by the sword, 24 yes. 25 Q. And he says jihad means with the sword, with the cannon, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10424 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 with the grenades an with the missile, right? 2 A. Yes, yes, he is saying that. 3 Q. And so in this speech, what he is saying is that jihad 4 means fighting, violence against the enemies of Islam, right? 5 A. He is saying that jihad means fighting. 6 Q. Like a holy war? 7 A. Like a holy war. This is one of the things that I really 8 don't like at all when they say jihad is a holy war. There is 9 no such thing -- 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, I am not talking about your opinion. I am 11 asking you about Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion? 12 A. Mr. Morvillo, you are talking about my religion, right, 13 concepts and my religion right now and I have to clarify. 14 Q. No, you don't. I am asking you questions about your 15 understanding of what Sheikh Abdel Rahman said. 16 A. My understanding, it is very clear here, the Sheikh is 17 saying jihad, it is with the sword right here, but he also in 18 other sermons, he is talking about jihad by the sword, he is 19 talking about jihad by the intention. I heard him saying that, 20 but in this conversation, in this sermon right here he is 21 talking about, about jihad by the sword. 22 Q. You're familiar with Sheikh Rahman's opinion that jihad was 23 necessary to do, whether it was collectively or individually, 24 right, because in his opinion, you couldn't wait for the 25 Islamic army to rise up, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10425 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: I object to the form of the question. 2 THE COURT: Rephrase it. 3 BY MR. MORVILLO: 4 Q. Are you familiar with Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion, that 5 jihad should be done collectively and individually? 6 MR. TIGAR: Objection. 7 THE COURT: Rephrase in terms of his understanding. 8 BY MR. MORVILLO: 9 Q. Was it your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman had an 10 opinion that jihad should be done collectively or individually? 11 A. My understanding is that he said that could be collectively 12 or individually, yes. 13 Q. One of the reasons why you took that position as far as you 14 understood was because you couldn't wait for an Islamic army to 15 rise up and defend against the oppressors, right? 16 A. If he is talking about jihad by the sword or jihad, yes, 17 but if he is talking -- I mean, my understanding is jihad could 18 be collectively or it doesn't mean to happen in the 19 battlefield. Jihad, as what I told you, my understanding is 20 could it be an internal thing with one person, this is how I 21 understand jihad. 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 23 Government Exhibit 2041 in evidence? 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 BY MR. MORVILLO: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10426 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is another document that was seized from 2 your apartment, and it is a speech by Abdel Rahman, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Would you go to Page 34, at the top of 5 the page -- actually, that doesn't correspond with my 6 transcript. It says -- can you put it on the Elmo. Thank you. 7 BY MR. MORVILLO: 8 Q. In this speech, Abdel Rahman says jihad acts undertaken be 9 individuals are permissible acts, they are indeed obligatory 10 duties. Some individuals perform an act of jihad and then they 11 say that this was a word from the prophet. 12 Do you see that? 13 A. Yes, I see it. 14 Q. Going to the bottom of the page, he says therefore, 15 individual acts of jihad performed by individuals -- 16 THE COURT: I am sorry. Individual acts? 17 Q. -- acts of jihad performed by individuals and whether 18 performed by individuals or by groups are mandated by Islam and 19 its sharia. Fighting is not the same as it was in the past. 20 It is not the engagement of two separate armies bent on 21 destroying each other, not at all, because the the the the ... 22 if we were to say -- the, the, the, if we were to wait for the 23 emergence of a Muslim army, we would be sealing the fate of 24 jihad, there would be no jihad. 25 That is what he said, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10427 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, how would you define self-defense? 3 A. How do I define self-defense? If somebody is attacking me 4 or attacking my country or attacking my family or attacking the 5 people that I love. 6 Q. What about attacking your religion? 7 A. And attacking my religion? In what way? 8 Q. An invasion? 9 A. What? 10 Q. Invasion of Muslim land? 11 A. This is attacking a country. 12 Q. And responding against that would be self-defense, right? 13 A. Absolutely, it is in my religion, self-defense, in every 14 law that I know of it is considered self-defense. It is 15 legitimate duty upon people to defend themselves. 16 Q. What would you consider an invasion? 17 A. What do I consider an invasion? 18 Invasion is an invasion, a foreign army going to a 19 foreign country that did not do anything and just invade them 20 or just because you want to take the wealth, you want to 21 destroy them, you know? 22 Q. Do you consider the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia 23 to be an invasion? 24 A. Did I consider their presence? I have an observation on 25 this. I did not like to see foreign troops in Saudi Arabia, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10428 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 but I did not consider this to be an invasion. They were 2 invited by the Saudi king. 3 Q. Abdel Rahman considered it an invasion, right? 4 A. I am sorry? 5 Q. It was your understanding that an Abdel Rahman considered 6 that to be an invasion? 7 A. Yes, he did. 8 Q. You don't abdicate turning the other cheek, right? 9 A. No, I don't abdicate turning the other cheek. It is not 10 according to my religion. I don't turn the other cheek. 11 Q. Is it your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman believed 12 that because Egypt was not ruled in accordance with sharia, it 13 was the obligation of Muslims to wage jihad against the 14 government? 15 A. It is not only Sheikh Abdel Rahman, it is -- 16 Q. It this Islamic Group, too, right? 17 A. I could say 99.9 percent of Muslim scholars say that if a 18 land, a Muslim land where the Muslims are the majority are not 19 ruled by Islamic law or Islamic sharia, they should be -- the 20 people should try to change that and establish an Islamic 21 state, or Islamic law should be the law of the land. 22 Q. That was the goal of the Islamic Group, right? 23 A. This was the goal of the Islamic Group, yes. 24 Q. Abdel Rahman also believed, as you understood it, that 25 jihad against Israel was permissible because they occupy Muslim SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10429 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 lands? 2 A. Yes, and most of the Arab world and Islamic world, they 3 still do not have relations with Israel. They consider 4 Palestine to be an occupied land and they consider it to be a 5 legitimate -- 6 Q. And you share that belief, right? 7 A. I share that belief. I do share that belief, but the 8 method is very complicated now. I mean 50 years of conflict 9 between the Arabs Abdel Sattar and the Israelis, there is three 10 generations of Israelis that were born and raised in there, 11 that they have no other place to go. 12 This is their land now. I cannot just sit here and 13 say and call them occupiers. I can try to work it out. I can 14 try to do -- 15 Q. You can issue fatwas, calling for them to be killed, right? 16 A. No, no, Mr. Morvillo, I will not issue fatwahs for them to 17 be killed. 18 I will just suppress my anger, I will, as I say, cry 19 out loud like, you know, some people, some other people who are 20 maybe so oppressed. 21 I can work out, try to get to a solution in this piece 22 of land. That is what I could try to do, so that is why I say 23 the method is very, very complicated, it is not just black and 24 white, sitting here today and just, you know, saying issue a 25 jihad against them and kick them out and do this, no, we cannot SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10430 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 do that. 2 Q. Your understanding was that was Abdel Rahman's opinion, 3 right? 4 A. Do I understand that was? 5 Q. Abdel Rahman's opinion? 6 A. As I say, it is the opinion of many people, yes, but it is 7 not as black and white. Chances are -- 8 Q. I my question is not your opinion, but Sheikh Abdel -- 9 A. Yes. 10 THE COURT: Stop. Question, answer. The reporter 11 can't get two people talking at the same time. I am not sure 12 the question was finished. 13 MR. TIGAR: I object to the form of the question. 14 Incomplete form, asking for somebody's opinion, not the 15 witness' understanding. 16 THE COURT: Rephrase the question. 17 BY MR. MORVILLO: 18 Q. The question was: It is your understanding that Sheikh 19 Abdel Rahman's opinion was that Islam should wage jihad against 20 Israel, right? 21 A. Yes, but also in my understanding, the Sheikh Rahman's 22 opinion was if the Palestinians can't solve the problem with 23 the Israelis, it is up to the Palestinians. Once the problem 24 is solved, they could live together. I understood this from 25 listening to some of the things that he said, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10431 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 Q. When Sheikh Abdel Rahman was in Egypt prior to coming to 2 the United States, you are aware, your understanding is that he 3 issued a fatwah, calling for the assassination of Anwar Sadat, 4 right? 5 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: I'll sustain that. 7 BY MR. MORVILLO: 8 Q. It is your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman issued 9 for a fatwah, calling for the assassination of President Anwar 10 Sadat? 11 A. No. 12 Q. That is not your understanding? 13 A. No, that is not my understanding. My understanding was -- 14 MR. TIGAR: I object, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 BY MR. MORVILLO: 17 Q. It is your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman approved 18 the assassination of Anwar Sadat? 19 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right, sustained. 21 BY MR. MORVILLO: 22 Q. It is your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman left 23 Egypt in the late 80's, right? 24 A. In the late 80's? 25 Q. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10432 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 A. I don't know if he left permanently or just, you know -- 2 Q. Permanently? 3 A. No. He left Egypt permanently in I believe it was in 1990. 4 He never went back after that. 5 Q. You know he was in Afghanistan part time, right? 6 A. I know he was in Afghanistan, yes. We also saw the 7 pictures of him there. 8 Q. Those are pictures of him in Afghanistan, right? 9 A. Yes, the war between the Afghanistani people and the Soviet 10 Union. 11 Q. And the people that he was were with mujahidin, right? 12 A. Yes, this is what they were called at the time, yes. 13 Q. And he came to the United States in 1990? 14 A. Yes, I believe, I believe so. 15 Q. And you met him when he came to the mosque to preach? 16 A. I saw him first in a different mosque, but I get to know 17 him when he came to the mosque, yes. 18 Q. You listened to some of his sermons and some of his 19 speeches and lectures, right? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. At one point, you testified you became one of his drivers? 22 A. I drove. I was not a driver. I drove him a few times, 23 yes, from the mosque to where he lived in Jersey City and I 24 picked him up. 25 Q. He had a number of other drivers as well, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10433 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 A. He had other people, you know, that were driving him. He 2 is a blind man, you know, he needs to be -- 3 Q. That was in the fall of '92, you said, that you started 4 driving him? 5 A. Yeah, I believe it was the fall of '92. The Sheikh, if he 6 is going to give a lecture in your mosque, somebody has to go 7 and pick him up. This is what I was, you know - this is what I 8 did. 9 Q. And he lived in New Jersey? 10 A. He lived in Jersey City, yes. 11 Q. Jersey City? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. This is around the time, in the fall of 1992, you started 14 driving him from time to time that your relationship with him 15 developed? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How often did you see him between the fall of 1992 and his 18 arrest in '93? 19 A. I saw him a couple of times a week in the fall of '92 till 20 about February or March 1993. He used to come to the mosque, 21 what you said, he was given two days in the mosque to give 22 lectures, and so I saw him, I saw him ones once, two times a 23 week. 24 After that, in March of '93 I saw him on more 25 occasions. President Mubarak was coming to visit the United SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10434 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 States, and as what I said before, I was working with him on 2 the media and having some press interviews for him and stuff 3 like this, and I saw him more than -- in this period of time 4 from March of '93 until his arrest, I saw him more than once. 5 Q. He was convicted of conspiring to kill President Mubarak 6 when he came to the United States in '93, right? 7 A. Yes, he was. 8 Q. You know that during the speeches that he gave in the early 9 90's, he embraced the term "terrorist," right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. He stated, did he not, that we must be terrorists and we 12 must terrorize the enemies of Islam and frighten them and 13 disturb them and shake the earth under their feet. 14 You're familiar with that, right? 15 A. Yes, but you are isolating something, taken totally out of 16 context. Historic context and the speech context and the 17 events that was given, and also sitting here, I am saying this, 18 if you don't have an understanding of the Quran and what the 19 word "terrorist" means, you will probably misread him there. 20 Q. That is what he said? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Some of the speeches you have heard or read by Abdel 23 Rahman, he opposed political parties, right? 24 A. I am not quite sure if it was a speech, or I know his 25 opinion about political parties, but I am not quite sure, you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10435 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 know, where exactly he said he was saying that. I know he 2 opposed political parties, yes. 3 Q. Are you familiar with a statement by him that every party 4 that does not employ the Islamic law as its method is -- 5 A. I cannot hear you, Mr. Morvillo. 6 Q. Sorry. I'll speak into the microphone. 7 Every party that does not employ the Islamic law as 8 its method is what? Is definitely the party of the devil. Are 9 you familiar with that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It is fair to say, is it not, that you understood that 12 Sheikh Abdel Rahman endorsed assassinations in his speeches? 13 A. I can't say that I understand that he endorsed 14 assassination. He -- assassination -- he spoke about 15 assassination. I am not quite sure in what -- unless I see the 16 speech, and I can just say what was, what was said or what did 17 he say. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 19 Government Exhibit 2077 TA? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 BY MR. MORVILLO: 22 Q. This is a speech by Sheikh Abdel Rahman that was seized in 23 your home. In one of his answers to a question, he stated 24 Sadat, in the eyes of the Quran, is an infidel because he did 25 not follow God's rules. He was an oppressor and infidel; and, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10436 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 therefore, removing him was inevitable and he should have been 2 overthrown, which couldn't be done. Killing him was the only 3 way, so let him be killed. 4 He said that, right? 5 A. Yes, he did. 6 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, there was a limiting 7 instruction on that exhibit. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MORVILLO: It was, I believe, received -- 10 THE COURT: Not for the truth of the matters asserted, 11 but for the effect on the witness' knowledge and intent and 12 state of mind. 13 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 (continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10437 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry. May I confer with 2 Mr. Morvillo? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 (Counsel conferring) 5 MR. MORVILLO: Only with respect to Mr. Sattar, your 6 Honor, this exhibit was received. 7 THE COURT: All right. The exhibit is received only 8 with respect to Mr. Sattar and not for the truth of the matters 9 asserted but for the effect on the witness' knowledge, intent 10 and state of mind. 11 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 12 Q. Another page of that exhibit, the question is posed to him: 13 Is the word assassination an Islamic word or better use the 14 word "individual Jihad"? 15 And the Sheikh answered: "Individual Jihad" is 16 better. 17 Right? 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. And whether you call it individual jihad or assassination, 20 it's still murder, right? 21 A. It is still murder but I will not call it individual jihad 22 myself. The Sheikh can call it individual jihad. I would not 23 call that individual jihad myself. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 25 Exhibit 211T, to the jury? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10438 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, this was a government exhibit in Sheikh Abdel 3 Rahman's trial, correct? 4 A. Yes. And I believe there was the other tape that you were 5 showing me was also introducing Sheikh Abdel Rahman's trial. 6 Q. The prior one? 7 A. The prior one that was found in my home, yes. 8 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to the bottom of page 7? 9 The Ninth Doubt. Now, this is a speech by Abdel 10 Rahman. "They also said that the individual work decides not 11 jihad" -- 12 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 13 MR. MORVILLO: I'm sorry. 14 Q. "The individual deeds, not jihad, and that jihad is a 15 collective work. What is this? This is an assault on the 16 prophet's instructions. There is an individual jihad when the 17 prince orders him then he goes and do it. This is a single 18 work. And the assassinations. The assassinations for the sake 19 of rendering Islam triumphant is a legitimate matter." 20 He said that, right? 21 A. Yes, but continue, please, if you can read the rest of it? 22 Because you know, I have something to say about that. 23 Q. My question is only did he say what I read. 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10439 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Exhibit 2040T, in evidence? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 Q. This was another speech of Abdel Rahman's seized from your 4 home. 5 A. Are you asking me? 6 Q. Yes, I'm asking you. 7 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo, your 8 Honor? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 (Counsel conferring) 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, there was a limiting 12 instruction given when this document was received. It was only 13 received against Mr. Sattar with respect to his knowledge, 14 state of mind and intent. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 Ladies and gentlemen, this exhibit is received 17 solely -- was received solely with respect to Mr. Sattar and 18 solely with respect to his knowledge, intent and state of mind. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 7 and 20 highlight the first half of the second paragraph? 21 During this speech Abdel Rahman stated, did he not, 22 "Thus, we are in a weak, humiliating and subservient position. 23 Indeed, we need to understand our faith. Jihad say foundation 24 and an obligation for spreading Islam. Indeed, indeed, without 25 hesitation or shame. Without hesitation, shame or mentality SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10440 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 failure, this faith was spread by the sword. Indeed, indeed we 2 endorse assassinations. We have to assassinate. Indeed, we 3 are terrorists. Our faith obligates us to be terrorists." 4 He said that, right? 5 A. Yes, he said that. 6 But, as what I said before, you cannot just isolate 7 certain things of what he said from the whole thing. Any one 8 of those tapes that you showed today it was Sheikh Abdel Rahman 9 did it between 1991 and 1993. If we go to all those tapes and 10 the events that surrounding those tapes, you will understand 11 what was going on there. 12 Some of those tapes, you know, he was giving it during 13 the Bosnian conference -- 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, the fact of the matter is that Sheikh Abdel 15 Rahman endorsed assassinations as permissible, legitimate 16 jihad, yes or no? 17 A. He is -- this is what he said here, yes. 18 Q. Now, before Sheikh Abdel Rahman was arrested in 1993, you 19 attended many of the sermons, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you traveled with him, right? 22 A. Travelled with him? 23 Q. Did you go to Detroit with him? 24 A. No, I never did. 25 Q. Did you not go to Detroit with Sheikh Abdel Rahman? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10441 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. No, I never did. 2 Q. Well, you certainly visited him frequently? 3 A. I visited him in Jersey City. The only place you could 4 call travel is I traveled from Staten Island to Jersey city. 5 Q. And at the mosque you became familiar and friendly with 6 some of his other followers, right? 7 A. Some of his other followers? No, I cannot, I will not say 8 that. I will say I become familiar -- I mean, that was my 9 mosque before Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman come there, it was, you 10 know, I was member of that mosque. I went to this mosque and 11 so I cannot just, you know, to attach the mosque to Sheikh Omar 12 Abdel Rahman or to his followers. 13 Q. You knew the people -- you knew many of the people who 14 attended his sermons, right? 15 A. I know many people who attended the mosque, right, and some 16 of his sermons, yes. 17 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that there came a 18 time when you were subpoenaed by the FBI for what you called 19 hand swabbing? 20 A. That was in 1993, yes. 21 Q. 1993. When in 1993? 22 A. That was in April 1993. 23 Q. April? 24 A. April 1993 Agent Steve Viera, he is the one who actually 25 came to my job and swabbed my hands in front of my co-workers. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10442 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And it was your understanding that the hand swabbing was to 2 test for chemical residue? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And it was also your understanding that that hand swabbing 5 was done in connection with an investigation that the FBI was 6 conducting, right? 7 A. My understanding it was not for an investigation. My 8 understanding it was a retaliation against me. My 9 understanding it was that day I had an -- the New York Times 10 published an interview with me and they were -- I was talking 11 about how the FBI is targeting Arabs and, you know, going, 12 knocking on doors and you know, bothering people. And after 13 the first World Trade Center bombing. 14 Miraculously the FBI showed to my job with a forthwith 15 subpoena that day. I took it as a retaliation against me 16 because I spoke out. This is how I took it. 17 Q. And that was a grand jury subpoena? 18 A. It was a grand jury subpoena. It was signed by a judge. 19 Q. And so it's your testimony that the grand jury subpoena was 20 issued in retaliation for your speaking out in the newspaper? 21 A. Yes. My understanding at the time, yes. 22 Q. It had nothing to do with your connection to Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman? 24 A. Well, it could be, but, you know, this is at the time I 25 looked at like this. I finished, you know, right after the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10443 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 subpoena, I had a press conference in my home. I invited every 2 major press organization in my home and I said that. 3 Q. At this time the World Trade Center had been bombed, right? 4 That was February of '93? 5 A. Oh yes. Yes. 6 Q. And Mohammed Salameh had already been arrested, right? 7 A. Mohammed Salameh has been arrested. 8 Q. And you knew that your telephone number appeared in 9 Mohammed Salameh's address books, right? 10 A. No, I did not know that. 11 Q. You knew Mohammed Salameh, didn't you? 12 A. I knew Mohammed Salameh, yes. I seen him in Jersey City. 13 I cannot say that I know him, you know, I -- I was -- had a 14 friendship with him or anything. I know him as a fellow Muslim 15 who was attending the mosque in Jersey city. 16 Q. Did you know Mahmoud Abu-Halima? 17 A. Yes, Mahmoud Abu-Halima was, he lived in Brooklyn and he 18 attended Abu Bakr mosque sometimes. 19 Q. And you knew him before he was arrested in connection with 20 the first bombing of the World Trade Center too, right? 21 A. I know him, yes. 22 Q. And did you know Nidal Ayyad? 23 A. No, I did not. 24 Q. Now, Mr. Abu-Halima was convicted of the first World Trade 25 Center bombing, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10444 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, he was. 2 Q. And Mr. Salameh was convicted of the first World Trade 3 Center bombing, right? 4 A. Yes, he was. 5 Q. In fact, he was the one who rented the van apparently, 6 right? 7 A. He was the one who rented the van. I believe -- I believe 8 so, yes. 9 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we have a limiting 10 instruction with respect to all of this? It is not offered for 11 the truth and only as to Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent and 12 state of mind? 13 I'm sorry, your Honor. That was my request. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo? 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, some of the testimony with 16 respect to the relationships is certainly offered for the 17 truth. His understanding of what happened to these individuals 18 is only offered for his understanding. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. TIGAR: I ask to be heard at the break, your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: I will listen at the break but any 23 statements by the witness about what happened to any of those 24 individuals or what those individuals did is received solely 25 with respect to Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent and state of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10445 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 mind. 2 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 3 Q. We spoke earlier today, Mr. Sattar, about Sayeed Nosair? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You attended his trial, right, in 1991? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And he was a co-defendant of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's in the 8 trial that you worked as a paralegal on, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. But prior to that he had been tried in the state, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And he was being tried in the state for the murder of Rabbi 13 Kahane, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you attended that trial? Regularly? 16 A. I'm sorry. 17 Q. You attended that trial regularly, right? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. Was Mr. Nosair a friend of yours before he was arrested? 20 A. I never knew Mr. Nosair before he was arrested. It was a 21 very high profile case, you know, I mean in the newspapers and 22 on TV and it attracted hundreds of Muslims and it attracted 23 hundreds of Jewish too. It was all over and it was, you know, 24 people were -- people supporting Nosair outside the courtroom, 25 Jewish people opposing him and, you know. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10446 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 So, it was a very high profile case. I was one of 2 hundreds of people that attended the Nosair's trial. 3 Q. And Mr. Nosair was convicted of weapons charged in 4 connection with that state trial, right? 5 A. Yes, he was acquitted on the murder charge and he was 6 convicted of a weapon charge. 7 Q. And he was then subsequently convicted of the murder in the 8 trial with Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 9 A. Yes, in the federal -- yes. 10 Q. And after the state trial ended, he was sentenced to prison 11 and sent to Attica, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you visited him in Attica on several occasions, right? 14 A. No. I visited him once. I will never forget this day 15 because that day my father died and I sat with him -- the 16 minute I get there to Attica I was received by him and I was 17 told, you know, to go -- to go back and I found that -- I did 18 not even sit with him. The imam there counsels me and said you 19 have to go back because my father had a heart attack so I drove 20 back. 21 This was the only time I visited him in Attica. 22 Q. And that's a 16 hour trip? 23 A. I'm not sure, no. 16 hour trip? That's -- no. It's -- 24 I'm not quite sure how long the trip -- it's about eight hours, 25 nine hours, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10447 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Round trip I meant. 2 A. I'm sorry. 3 Q. I meant round trip. 4 A. Round trip, yes. 5 Q. Now, you also know Ramzi Yousef, right? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Well -- 8 A. I know about Ramzi Yousef from what I read. I never met 9 Ramzi Yousef. I seen him when I was -- when I went to MCC to, 10 you know, walking through MCC, you know, you could see the 11 cells. I seen him in one of them cells but I never spoke to 12 him, I never knew him. I didn't know anything about him except 13 what I read. 14 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Sattar, that you had some correspondence 15 from him in your home? 16 A. I had -- I had -- yes, a letter from him in my home. 17 What happened, you no know, we or -- me and some other 18 people, you know, we were publishing a newspaper. You can, you 19 know, it's a few pages newspaper, about two, three pages 20 newspaper, an Islamic newspaper and we were distributing it in 21 Brooklyn and in the metropolitan area also. 22 Those newspapers I was -- it was sent to prison to 23 inmates in prison and it happened that Ramzi Yousef, his name 24 was just on the list like other people and I send it, this 25 newspaper to him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10448 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 When the newspaper was stopped being published he sent 2 a letter asking if -- if this newspaper can be sent back to him 3 or why the -- you know why I stopped sending the newspaper to 4 him. 5 That was in that context, Mr. Morvillo. I did not 6 have any contact with Ramzi Yousef except in this capacity or 7 that context. 8 Q. But you have corresponded with many other people who have 9 been convicted of crimes of terrorism, right? 10 A. I have correspondence with mainly the people that they were 11 on the Sheikh's case that I got to know during the Sheikh's 12 trial. I cannot say correspondence that I am sending them 13 letters and they are sending me letters. They would send -- 14 some of them will send me letters asking me if I can help 15 assist with some lawyers. Some of them will call me asking if 16 I can get in touch with that lawyer or that lawyer. Some of 17 them will call me that, you know, and they are in need, you 18 know, for some money. 19 And I, part of the charity that I, from my mosque and 20 from the Muslim community, especially during Ramadan, I used to 21 send them some money. 22 Q. So, in addition to Sheikh Abdel Rahman to whom you sent 23 money, you sent money to other people who were convicted and 24 serving life sentences for crimes of terrorism, right? 25 A. Yes, I did send that, not only just people who were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10449 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 convicted in crime of terrorism, anybody who I know that, some 2 people who I know that they just Muslims and they are 3 imprisoned. 4 Even as what I said before, yes, they are criminals 5 but they are still human beings. 6 MR. MORVILLO: May I approach, your Honor? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, are you familiar with this document? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What is it? 11 A. This is, was a document, you know, where the addresses of 12 some of the people who were convicted in the Sheikh's case and 13 the World Trade Center and I was just, their addresses, their 14 inmate numbers that I was sending them money during the 15 holidays, the Muslim holidays. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government offers 17 Government Exhibit 803. 18 MR. FALLICK: No objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: All right, government -- 20 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo, your 21 Honor? 22 THE COURT: Sure. 23 (Counsel conferring) 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government only offers 25 this with respect to Mr. Sattar. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10450 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 803 2 received in evidence, solely with respect to Mr. Sattar. 3 (Government's Exhibit 803 received in evidence) 4 MR. MORVILLO: May I publish it to the jury? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 7 Q. This was a document that was on your computer, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And what you said was that it is a list of individuals to 10 whom you would sometimes correspond, send money, people that 11 you did favors for? 12 A. People that I mainly send money for, yes and other people 13 that -- most of those people that I knew during the trial of 14 the Sheikh Rahman. I work, you know, with their lawyers, you 15 know, as part of the Sheikh's trial. 16 Q. Now, Ahmed Ajaj was in the first World Trade Center trial, 17 right? 18 A. Yes. He was in the first World Trade Center, yes. 19 Q. Did you know him before he was convicted of the first 20 bombing of the World Trade Center? 21 A. I don't even think that I ever seen him except in picture. 22 Q. And let's just go down the list. Amir Abdelgany, did you 23 did you know him before the Sheikh's trial? 24 A. He was one of the Sheikh's co-defendants, yes. 25 Q. Did you know him prior to his arrest? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10451 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. What about Clement Hampton-El? Did you know him prior to 3 his arrest? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Fadel Abdelgany? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Ibrahim Elgabrowny? 8 A. Ibrahim Elgabrowny, yes. He was a member of Abu Bakr 9 Mosque and he was the Sheikh's co-defendant. 10 Q. And he was convicted of solicitous conspiracy, yes? 11 A. He was convicted of solicitous conspiracy, yes. 12 Q. The next name, Abu-Halima and Mohamed Salameh we have 13 spoken about? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. They were not in the Sheikh's case, they were in the first 16 World Trade Center bombing case? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How about Mohammed Saled? 19 A. Mohammed Saled was one of the Sheikh's co-defendant. 20 Q. Did you know him prior, too? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Nidal Ayyad, we talked about him, you said you didn't know 23 him? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Omar Ali? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10452 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. That's the Sheikh himself. 2 Q. That's the Sheikh, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Sayyed Nosair we have spoken about all ready? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Siddig Ali? 7 A. I know him as a translator, you know, back then in 1993 8 during the Sheikh's immigration hearing, and I told him Siddig 9 Ali was well own. 10 Q. You testified about him on him on direct examination, 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Tariq Hassan? 14 A. I don't know. I mean I know him during the Sheikh's trial. 15 He was one of his co-defendants. I never knew him before that. 16 Q. And Victor Alvarez, did you know Victor? 17 A. Victor Alvarez, I never knew him before but as what I said 18 before, Victor, you know, if anybody was corresponding with me 19 more than anybody else, any of these people, it was Victor 20 Alvarez. I said victor has no family whatsoever so that was 21 just like, you know, I'm the only one who can just send letters 22 to and call and -- so and I had his, what do you call it? His 23 legal material in my garage that was taken by the government. 24 Q. And all the people who were on this list are currently 25 serving sentences following convictions for crimes of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10453 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 terrorism, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, would this be a convenient 4 time for a break? 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 10 minutes. 7 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please, don't talk 8 about the case at all. Always remember to keep an open mind 9 until you have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you 10 on the law, you have gone to the jury room to begin your 11 deliberations. 12 I usually like to see Mr. Fletcher before I send you 13 out. 14 All right. All rise, please. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10454 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: Please, be seated. 6 I gave a limiting instruction and was that issue then 7 resolved? 8 MR. TIGAR: Yes. Your Honor, the issue of the 9 question to which my objection was directed was resolved by 10 your Honor's limiting instruction despite the relative lack of 11 clarity in my objection. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. TIGAR: However, this line of questioning poses 14 particular difficulties for me and Ms. Shellow-Lavine 15 representing Ms. Stewart. 16 There were earlier questions such as this is what the 17 Islamic Group believes? This is Islam? 18 Then, a series of questions in which the witness was 19 shown exhibits that were admitted subject to limiting 20 instructions without the interrogator making clear that there 21 had been limiting instructions. 22 There was a government 2041 which was never published, 23 thus I don't see a limiting instruction, but it ought to have 24 received one and hope it does now. 25 Then, most recently, we have Exhibit 803 where without SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10455 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 my having stood up and asked to speak to Mr. Morvillo, it 2 would, I think, have just come in. 3 I don't want to be in the position, your Honor, of 4 having to stand up and draw attention to Ms. Stewart because 5 the government is not abiding by the limiting instructions. 6 I'm not going to go through my severance argument all over 7 again but it is there, it's been made, but this is the kind of 8 difficulty that experienced prosecutors should not put 9 co-defendants in in a case of this kind. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, there were very few 12 documents that I referred to that were not in evidence against 13 Ms. Stewart. I am not planning on going back to any of these 14 documents in any event, but to the extent that there are 15 limiting instructions that attach to documents that I will get 16 to in the future, I will remind the Court. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 I mean you can repeat those limiting instructions 19 before turning to the document. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Certainly, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: And you also should, to the extent that a 22 telephone conversation or speech is being referred to, place it 23 in terms of time. 24 MR. MORVILLO: I will, your Honor. 25 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, and may I respectfully ask SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10456 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 that Mr. Morvillo also make clear that what's offered as 2 bearing on Mr. Sattar's state of mind, just so that I don't 3 have to make that objection? 4 THE COURT: No, that is the import of what he said he 5 would do. And I also believe that the -- well, go ahead. 6 MR. TIGAR: And I was just going to ask that over the 7 break if the government would check and see if 2041 takes a 8 limiting instruction. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. TIGAR: I don't have a record as to that. 11 Thank you, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: See you shortly. 13 (Recess) 14 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, please, be seated, 15 all. 16 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 17 (Witness resume the stand) 18 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo is at the -- 19 MR. MORVILLO: You want me to wait there, your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Let's bring in the jury. 22 By the way, before we broke, the government was going 23 to check on 2041 and get back to the defense on that. And so, 24 you can do that. 25 (Continued next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10457 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Mr. Sattar is on 3 the stand. 4 Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 6 are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 9 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, you knew a man named Emad Salem, right? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. You knew him prior to Sheikh Abdel Rahman's arrest, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you ever tell Emad Salem that there had been no 15 firearms training -- 16 A. I'm sorry? 17 Q. Did you ever tell Emad Salem that there had been no 18 firearms training since Nosair's arrest for the -- 19 A. There has been firearm training -- 20 Q. There has been no firearms training since Nosair's arrest 21 for the Kahane murder? 22 A. Yes. I have told him that. I told him that in context 23 when they were -- in context of the jihad in Afghanistan. I 24 told him there was -- you know, when Nosair was arrested that 25 program, which was in my understanding was run by the CIA, it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10458 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 stopped. Because Nosair was part of that program, you know, 2 from what I know. 3 Q. And you were present when Salem spoke to Sheikh Abdel 4 Rahman about firearms training, right? 5 A. No, I wasn't. 6 Q. Did you ever meet a man named Edward Ferguson? 7 A. Edward Ferguson? I don't recall the name. 8 Q. Do you recall going to a man named Edward Ferguson's house 9 with Mr. Salem in 1992 and looking at firearms? 10 A. This man was -- I did not know him by the name of Edward 11 Ferguson. I know him by the name of, he has a Muslim name but 12 you know I'm not -- I don't recall his name. And this man was 13 a friend of Emad Salem, it was not my friend or I did not know 14 him. 15 Emad Salem at the time called me and it was actually 16 as a matter of fact -- let me just go through how this 17 happened. 18 At the time there was a mosque in Jamaica, Queens, 19 that there were some drug dealers doing drugs around the mosque 20 and it was we were protesting in, you know, the presence of the 21 drug dealers in, around that mosque. 22 And I met Salem -- met that man there. I didn't know 23 they had spoke together, they had a conversation and Emad 24 Salem, one day he calls me and he says, you know, are you 25 available? I said what's going on? He said, you know, I'm SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10459 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 going to Queens, do you want to come with me? I -- I just went 2 with him on that trip. I didn't know that he was going to see 3 anybody. And I saw that man with him. 4 Q. And when you went to his house, you saw weapons? 5 A. I did not see weapons, I seen just, you know, he was -- I 6 understood that this man was a trainer, that he takes people, 7 you know, to train them for weapons but I did not see weapons 8 myself. 9 Q. The first bombing of the World Trade Center was on February 10 26 of -- 11 THE COURT: There is an exhibit that's -- thank you. 12 Q. The first bombing of the World Trade Center was on February 13 26th of 1993, right? 14 A. Yes, it was. 15 Q. Isn't it a fact you once told Salem that after you learned 16 of Mohammed Salomeh's arrest you had to run home right away and 17 clean up everything? 18 A. This is a lie as many, many, many lies Emad Salem did. 19 Emad Salem was just a liar and to me, you know, he was 20 just making up stories play football with FBI mind and, you 21 know, that's what he was doing. He was just, you know, 22 manipulating everybody. And I never told Emad Salem anything 23 like that. 24 Q. Did you ever ask him, Emad Salem, how to clean up 25 chemicals? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10460 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. I never asked him that. 2 Q. Did you ever ask him, Emad Salem, to sweep your apartment 3 for bugs? 4 A. I never asked him to do that. 5 He was going in the community during that time after 6 the World Trade Center bombing and spreading rumors of the FBI 7 bugging people's apartments, that the FBI bugging people's 8 cars, that the FBI doing all those things. 9 He was just going and doing those things. And, you 10 know, he was actually asking people to go and do, I mean sweep 11 their apartments or their cars. Emad Salem has never been to 12 my home once. I mean, he only been to my home once in a few 13 years that I know him. 14 I mean, he never come to swipe or, you know, sweep my 15 apartment or anything like that. 16 Q. And so, did you ever have anyone sweep your apartment for 17 bugs? 18 A. I did not. 19 Emad Salem wanted to come to my apartment, he was just 20 doing those things and he says, you know -- as a matter of fact 21 he was pressing me and pushing me and, you know, to come to my 22 apartment. And finally he came to my apartment, but he never 23 did. I don't believe he did anything, you know, in there. We 24 just sat there. We talked. He had his briefcase with him 25 which was equipped with a tape recorder. He recorded every SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10461 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 word that I said with him and then, you know, we went 2 downstairs, I sat in his car which was equipped with a tape 3 recorder and he recorded every word that I said in my, during 4 my presence with him. 5 So if anything like this happened, it will be on the 6 tape recorder that Emad Salem had. It was going through all 7 this the time that we were sitting there. 8 Q. And so what you are saying then is that that never 9 happened? 10 A. I don't -- I don't recall it did, it happened. 11 Q. So then your counter-surveillance instinct didn't develop? 12 A. I'm sorry? 13 Q. Your counter-surveillance instinct didn't develop until 14 recent years? 15 MR. FALLICK: Objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 Q. After their arrests for the first bombing of the World 18 Trade Center, you began collecting money for their defense, 19 right, Mohammed -- 20 A. The who. 21 Q. Mohammed Salomeh's arrest, you began collecting money for 22 their defense, right? 23 A. No. No. There was no money for their defense. I did not 24 collect money for their defense. 25 Q. After Salomeh was arrested you spoke to him on the phone SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10462 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 quite a bit, didn't you? 2 A. Once -- once I spoke to him on the phone, yes. He did call 3 me once, not quite a bit. And he was actually crying on the 4 phone saying that he does not even have a penny in his account 5 so he can send a letter to his family. And I did ask people, 6 you know, to send him money. 7 Q. Didn't he tell you that he was concerned that Mahmoud 8 Abu-Halima was cooperating with the government? 9 A. I'm not quite sure if he told me -- if he told me that I am 10 not sure if he told me this. I cannot just sit here and tell 11 you -- Mr. Morvillo, we are talking about things that happened 12 in 1992 and you are asking me 12 years later. I really don't 13 remember, you know, what he said or what he did. I'm not sure 14 if he told me -- in one conversation that he -- that I had with 15 him that Abu Halima was cooperating. He did, he might not. I 16 don't. 17 Q. So you don't recall ever telling Sheikh Abdel Rahman that 18 Mohammed Salomeh was concerned that Mahmoud Abu-Halima was 19 cooperating? 20 A. Yes, he might. He might have told me but I'm not -- I 21 really I'm not sure. 22 Q. Did you work as a paralegal for the individuals who were 23 arrested in connection with the first bombing of the World 24 Trade Center? 25 A. No, I never did. And I never attempted to. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10463 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And so that work didn't start until the Sheikh's arrest? 2 A. Until the Sheikh's arrest, yes. 3 Q. Now, in July of 1993, I believe you testified it was July 4 2nd of '93, Sheikh Abdel Rahman was arrested? 5 A. According to what I remember, yes. 6 Q. And you were present at the time he was arrested, right? 7 A. I was what? 8 Q. You were present? 9 A. I was. 10 Q. And where did that arrest take place? 11 A. It took place at Abu Bakr Mosque in front of the mosque. 12 Actually, the Sheikh surrendered inside the fire house that was 13 across the street from the mosque. 14 The Sheikh was giving, as what I said, he was staying 15 at the mosque for that day and he was giving the Friday sermon, 16 and after the Friday sermon he surrendered to immigration 17 authority across the street from the mosque. 18 Q. But before he did that you actually sent out a fake Sheikh, 19 right? 20 A. I sent out a fake Sheikh? 21 Q. The -- a fake Sheikh went out, right? 22 A. Yes, it were -- yes. 23 Q. Someone dressed up as Sheikh Abdel Rahman -- 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- left the facility to fool the law enforcement SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10464 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 authorities, right? 2 A. Yes. To fool? 3 Q. Law enforcement. 4 A. No, it was not to fool law enforcement. It was at the time 5 there was no presence of law enforcement in the area. It was 6 the presence were media trucks, reporters from everywhere. It 7 was a huge scene, you know, people from the media everywhere 8 and was -- it was a huge media attraction and was putting the 9 mosque in a bad light. 10 So, at the time said, you know, if the Sheikh can just 11 leave, you know, the mosque, you know, it will be good for him 12 to leave. 13 So, and other people were having some concern if the 14 Sheikh might, you know, with all this media attraction and, you 15 know, if the Sheikh gets out of the mosque right now somebody 16 could attack him, somebody could do something to him. 17 So, the people who were, you know, who were doing that 18 decided to just, you know, put some glasses on and a turban on 19 and somebody and let him out of the mosque. 20 It was not to fool the law enforcement, it was just, 21 you know, to get the media attention away from the mosque. 22 Q. You said that the people who were doing that, you were not 23 one of those people? 24 A. I was. I was out in -- I was out there with them, yes. 25 Q. In fact, there are photographs of you coming out of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10465 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 mosque with Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 2 A. That was -- yes. That was when I was -- I -- I accompanied 3 the Sheikh to the fire house and I was part of the negotiation 4 between law enforcement and the Sheikh to negotiate his 5 surrender. 6 Q. And, in fact, you rode with him all the way up to 7 Otisville, right? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. And Otisville is a prison where they originally took Sheikh 10 Abdel Rahman while -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- following his arrest? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And then following his arrest he was indicted? 15 A. He was indicted a month and a half later, yes. 16 Q. And that's when you started working as a paralegal? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And at that time it was just volunteer work, right? 19 You weren't getting paid? 20 A. No, I was not -- at the beginning I was not getting paid. 21 I was just, you know, I was mainly doing interpretation between 22 him and some of the lawyers. This is at the beginning. 23 Q. And in connection with his arrest, you reviewed a lot of 24 the evidence, right? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10466 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you assisted in the translation of some of the evidence 2 from Arabic into English or from English into Arabic for the 3 Sheikh? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. And, originally, before you were appointed by Judge Mukasey 6 as a paralegal, you were volunteering your time? 7 A. I was volunteering my time but it was not as much. The 8 Sheikh was in Otisville with, for a period of time before 9 Mr. Moore became his lawyer. 10 You know, when William Kunstler was representing him 11 at the time the Sheikh was in Otisville, so I volunteered my 12 time when William Kunstler was going to visit him just to 13 translate between the Sheikh and William Kunstler. I was not 14 doing that much of a work, it was just occasionally. 15 Q. And, at this time you were still employed with the postal 16 service, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Full-time? 19 A. Full-time, yes. 20 Q. And it was during this pretrial period when you met Lynne 21 Stewart and Mohammed Yousry, correct? 22 A. That was -- yes, in 1994, early '95 when I met Mr. Yousry. 23 Q. And the trial started in January '95? 24 A. I believe so, yes. 25 Q. And you attended the trial on your off days, right? You SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10467 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 testified Mondays and Tuesday? 2 A. Mondays and Tuesdays, yes. 3 Q. And that trial went on for almost 10 months? 4 A. Yes; from January until October, yes. 5 Q. Ultimately in October there was a verdict and all the 6 defendants were convicted, right? 7 A. Yes. He was convicted in October. 8 Q. And while the trial was going on, you would go to the MCC 9 and visit Sheikh Abdel Rahman after trial? Some days? 10 A. After trial? 11 Q. After the trial day ended you would go to the MCC and spend 12 time with him? 13 A. Yes, I believe so. 14 Q. Now, after the verdict, Sheikh Abdel Rahman was immediately 15 sent to Springfield, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And he came back in January of 1996 for his sentencing? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you visit the Sheikh in Springfield between the verdict 20 and the sentencing? 21 A. I believe I did. I believe I visited him with -- I'm not 22 quite sure. I think -- I visit him once, I remember, with the 23 Daily News right after the verdict and it was me, and Abdeen 24 Jabara accompanied, that we went with the Daily News and 25 visited him. This was -- they took me as an interpreter. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10468 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Did you attend the sentencing in 1996? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. And he gave a lengthy speech during his sentencing, right? 4 A. He did give a lengthy speech, yes. 5 Q. And during that speech he called for the abolition of the 6 United States and for Israel, right? 7 A. For what? 8 Q. The abolition, the destruction of the United States and 9 Israel? 10 A. I am not quite sure if he called for that but you know, he 11 might. 12 Q. And he was sentenced to life plus 64 years? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And right after the sentence he was sent back to 15 Springfield, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you worked on the appeal? 18 A. Did I work -- yes, I did. 19 Q. And that was mostly with Ramsey Clark, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, from the time that he was arrested in 1993 and 22 throughout the trial, did you speak with him on the telephone 23 frequently? 24 A. Yes. I spoke to him two times a week. 25 Q. At least? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10469 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Could be more, yes. 2 Q. And, there were times when you would patch him through from 3 prison to the mosque so that he could preach from prison, 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you also visited him at the MCC on your off days, 7 right? 8 A. Just a second. You know, patching him from the -- from my 9 home to the mosque, I don't think I did that. 10 Q. I may have misspoke. 11 What I meant was that you went to the mosque and he 12 would call the mosque? 13 A. He would call the mosque and, you know -- and they will, 14 you know, he will be put on the loudspeaker and he will speak 15 to the people there in the mosque. I don't think I did patch 16 him through. 17 Q. And you testified that you made some recordings for the 18 Sheikh of some of the English materials and the Arabic 19 materials so that if it was a document, he could listen to the 20 recordings and assist in the preparation of his own defense, 21 right? 22 A. I don't understand what you are saying. 23 Q. I believe you testified on direct examination that from 24 time to time you would make tape recordings for the Sheikh that 25 he could use in connection with the preparation of his defense? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10470 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. I, you know, any material that I work on, or any of 2 the paralegals worked on for him to review, we had to put it on 3 tapes. I don't type braille, he does not write and read 4 regularly, so he has -- you know, we put it on tapes for him. 5 It was me, Yousry sometimes, Elmasry, Nasser Ahmed. Everybody 6 who worked, you know, on the case did that. 7 Q. And did you that frequently? 8 A. I did that, yes. 9 Q. Now, after he was convicted he went to Springfield, and he 10 then remained in Springfield from October of 1995 through April 11 of 1997 when the SAMs were imposed, right? 12 A. He was -- he was, yes, through '96 and '97. I'm not quite 13 sure when he left Springfield but it was until the SAM was 14 applied on him, yes. 15 Q. I meant, what my question was, was that he was still at 16 Springfield when the SAMs were initially imposed, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And that at some point later he was sent to Rochester? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, I want to talk to you about your communications with 21 Sheikh Abdel Rahman between while he was at Springfield but 22 before the SAMs were imposed, okay? 23 A. Yes. Okay. 24 Q. What kind of telephone contact with you have with him at 25 that time? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10471 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Telephone contact. He had regular telephone contacts. 2 Q. So how often did you speak with him? 3 A. He would call me maybe once a week. It was, you know -- or 4 two times a week. I'm not quite sure but, you know, at least 5 once a week. 6 Q. Did you ever patch those calls through to anyone else? 7 A. If locally, yes. 8 Q. To whom? 9 A. Some of the people that he used to call here. You know. 10 It was, you know, the Sheikh was what we call news junkie. 11 He's just, you know, he wants to know the news everywhere in 12 the world. The newspaper has to be read to him every single 13 day, somebody has to read the newspaper to him so he was -- he 14 had people, you know, was friends of his, people that he know 15 that he will call and they will buy the newspaper for him and 16 they will read the newspaper for him. 17 Some of those people I did patch him through to. 18 Q. Did you ever patch any of his calls through to overseas to 19 Egypt? 20 A. I don't recall that I -- I did that. If I did I might did 21 it with his family but I don't recall I ever did that. 22 Q. And you testified on direct that you visited Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman in Springfield several times? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. About how many? Five, maybe? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10472 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Again, Mr. Morvillo, I can't, honestly -- I cannot tell you 2 exactly how many times. Could be between three and five. I'm 3 not quite sure. 4 Q. You went a few times with Mr. Clark? 5 A. Yes, I went -- let me just give me a -- let me just try to 6 remember here, please. 7 I believe he went two times with Mr. Clark. I went -- 8 I'm not quite sure, once alone. And once with the Daily News. 9 That's about four times. I can't -- this is all I can recall. 10 Maybe more, I'm not sure. 11 Q. Were you ever denied access to Abdel Rahman at Springfield 12 prior to the imposition of the SAMs? 13 A. Prior? Yes. It was in March, March or April 1997, I was 14 supposed to go -- we had a visit scheduled and I was supposed 15 to go visit him and for, when you apply to visit him you have 16 to notify the prisons two weeks in advance and you tell them 17 that are you coming on such a date so they will accommodate the 18 visit for you. And that's what I did. 19 I used to fax the prisons and tell them that I am 20 coming and they will fax me back and say yes or no. Most of 21 the time, you know, they said yes. At that time I faxed the 22 prison and the answer was you cannot come on such, on that 23 weekend. 24 He faxed me actually -- no, as a matter of fact I was 25 told yes, I can come but they faxed Mr. Clark a day before the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10473 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 visit was scheduled and they said he cannot come because the 2 prison is in lockdown. It means, you know, there is no access 3 to the prison from anybody. 4 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Sattar, that you were cut off from 5 Sheikh Abdel Rahman by Springfield in January of 1997? 6 A. January 1997? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. I don't -- I don't remember that. I remember that I was 9 trying to visit him in March 1997 and I was told by Mr. Martin 10 Anderson, I spoke to him on the phone and he said the prison is 11 in lockdown. 12 I don't know. I never received anything in writing 13 from the prison to tell me that I was not supposed to go and 14 see him. 15 Q. Now, incidentally, you were barred from the MCC starting in 16 January of 1999, right? 17 A. That was in 19 -- yes. 18 Q. there was actually a letter, Government Exhibit 2062, in 19 evidence, that was the letter from the prison informing you 20 that you were not permitted to visit Abdel Rahman? 21 A. No, I was not -- it's Abdel Rahman was not -- 22 Q. I'm sorry, not permitted in the MCC? 23 A. I was not permitted in the MCC, yes. I got this letter in 24 1999. 25 Q. And the MCC is the building right here behind the court SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10474 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 house? 2 A. Yes. Right behind us, yes. 3 Q. And it's a federal prison, right? 4 A. It is a federal prison. 5 Q. That's where Sheikh Abdel Rahman was and his co-defendants 6 during the 1995 trial, right? 7 A. Yes. The last time he was there in 1996 after the 8 sentence. 9 Q. Who were you trying to visit at that time? 10 A. I was -- it's not who I was trying to visit at that time. 11 I was visiting, you know, for a long period of time, I was 12 visiting people there. I was visiting people, with Mr. Jasper, 13 Richard Jasper. I worked for him briefly, interpreted for him 14 between him and his client. 15 I worked on the Nasser Ahmed case. Mainly I was 16 working on the Nasser Ahmed case and I was visiting Nasser 17 Ahmed so I had access, you know, to the prison. And I -- I 18 actually had also, you know, a paralegal ID that was, you know, 19 I was investigated, you know. To have a paralegal ID you have 20 to be investigated by the FBI to get this and I had this with 21 me. 22 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo, your 23 Honor? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 (Counsel conferring) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10475 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, would this be a good time 2 to take the lunch break? 3 THE COURT: Mr. Fletcher? 4 Yes, this would be a good time to take the lunch 5 break. I wanted to check to make sure the jurors' lunches are 6 here and they are. 7 So, we will take the lunch break. 8 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 9 instructions. Please, please, don't talk about the case at 10 all. Always remember to keep an open mind until you have heard 11 all of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law and you 12 have gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 13 Have a good lunch. All rise, please. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10476 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: Let me talk to the lawyers, please. 6 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, while we are still in open 7 court, I renew my request that government counsel render, when 8 referring to an exhibit that's in evidence that has a limiting 9 instruction, tell the jury that. 10 We did provide the government with a complete list as 11 far as we know of all the exhibits with limiting instructions 12 to go with. 2062 was such an exhibit. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I didn't even show the 14 witness Government Exhibit 2062. I referred to it. I don't 15 think that it is appropriate or fair for me to have to, every 16 single time that I refer to an exhibit, remind the jury as to 17 whether there is a limiting instruction that applies to that. 18 The jury was instructed with respect to each exhibit 19 when it was received and I don't think it's necessary to, every 20 single time we refer to another exhibit, to repeat each 21 limiting instruction that accompanies it. 22 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, a simple reference would be 23 one thing. This exhibit is problematic because it reflects a 24 hearsay declaration barring Mr. Sattar from the MCC. I have a 25 whole bunch of other objections to it if it were not limited in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10477 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 the way that the Court did. Making, asking the jury by his 2 reference that this is a letter that did such and such it is 3 more than a mere reference. It would have been appropriate for 4 them to do that so as not to trigger what other objections I 5 might make. 6 THE COURT: All right, if it is something more than a 7 mere reference, including showing the exhibit or any sort of 8 extended questioning about questioning about the exhibit, make 9 sure to sure to advise about the limiting instruction. All 10 right? 11 Let me talk to you briefly. 12 (Pages 10478-10480 SEALED by order of the Court) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10481 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 2:15 p.m. 3 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 4 (Pages 10482-10495 SEALED by order of the Court) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10496 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 3 (Witness resumes stand) 4 (Jury present) 5 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 6 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 7 THE COURT: Good to see you all. 8 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 9 Mr. Fletcher? 10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 11 are still under oath. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 13 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Morvillo. You may proceed. 14 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 15 CROSS EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 17 Q. Mr. Sattar, there came a time in April of 1997 when 18 Attorney General Janet Reno imposed Special Administrative 19 Measures on Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you testified on direct examination that those SAMs did 22 not bar you, per se, but rather they barred the entire world 23 from communicating with Sheikh Abdel Rahman except for five 24 people, right? 25 A. Yes. This was my understanding. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10497 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And those five people were his lawyers, Mr. Yousry and his 2 wife, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you understood, at the time that the SAMs were imposed, 5 that the reason they were imposed was to prevent acts of 6 terrorism, right? 7 A. I believe that it was something that affect this, what the 8 SAM was saying. 9 Q. More specifically, you understood that the reason why the 10 SAMs were imposed on Sheikh Abdel Rahman was to prevent Sheikh 11 Abdel Rahman from communicating with any third parties to 12 prevent him from passing or receiving information relating to 13 terrorism, right? 14 A. I understand it was just barring from the whole world, you 15 know, from just -- getting in touch with anybody is what I 16 understood. 17 Q. Right, but the reasons why they were imposed on Sheikh 18 Abdel Rahman, your understanding was related to terrorism, 19 right? 20 A. I don't know the specific reasons, you know. I mean I 21 don't know the specific reason but I understand, you know, that 22 he was just totally isolated from getting in touch with anybody 23 but, you know, for what reason exactly I really don't know. 24 But, you know, I mean I might read it but I can't 25 just, you know, sitting here now, tell you for what specific SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10498 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 reason. 2 Q. Well, you understood that he had been convicted of crimes 3 of terrorism, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did you understand that one of those crimes was 6 solicitation of acts of violence, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you also understood that he was the leader of a 9 terrorist organization, or the emir of a terrorist 10 organization, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And that he was convicted of conspiring to wage a war of 13 terrorism against the United States, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So, it's fair to say that you understood that the United 16 States government was extremely concerned that Sheikh Abdel 17 Rahman would continue to solicit terrorism from prison after he 18 was sentenced to life, right? 19 A. I know that they just want to you know, isolate him. 20 That's all I understood, that they wanted to, they want this 21 man to be isolated. 22 Q. You didn't think about it? 23 A. I did not think about it? I did think about it and I 24 thought he was, you know, they just didn't want him to get in 25 touch with anybody, they just want to isolate him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10499 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And when the SAMs were imposed, you learned about them 2 pretty much right away, right? 3 A. I believe, yes, within, you know, when it was imposed, you 4 know. I mean, Ramsey Clark, I think I believe he was the first 5 one to receive a copy and he told me about it, yes. I cannot 6 tell you if it was right away or a few days or a week or -- 7 Q. But it was certainly within a week or so? 8 A. It was. I cannot give you a time frame. It was just, you 9 know -- I mean, it could be a week, could be two weeks. I'm 10 not quite sure. 11 Q. But Mr. Sattar, you testified previously that you spoke 12 with him by phone at least once or twice a week while he was in 13 Springfield, right? 14 A. To the Sheikh, yes. 15 Q. Yes. 16 And so, you would have known pretty soon after his 17 telephone contact with you was cut off the reasons why they 18 were cut off, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And in addition, you were not permitted to visit him, 21 right? 22 A. I was not, yes. Not just me. I was one of the people who 23 is not, you know, permitted to see him. 24 Q. No one was permitted to visit him other than those five 25 people? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10500 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you attempt to understand what the restrictions were on 3 the SAMs on your ability to communicate with Abdel Rahman once 4 they were imposed? 5 A. I don't believe that I attempted to do that. 6 Q. So, it was just your understanding at this time that you 7 were cut off from communicating directly with Sheikh Abdel 8 Rahman, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You were not allowed to visit him in prison and you were 11 not allowed to talk to him on the telephone? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And in fact, you haven't spoken to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 14 since April of 1997, right? 15 A. Yes. I have not. 16 Q. But, despite the SAMs, you obviously were communicating 17 with him, weren't you? 18 A. In an indirect way, yes. You know, I mean, through 19 letters, you know, going in with Ramsey Clark or Abdeen Jabara 20 or Ms. Stewart. Through, you know, if I need something or if 21 he needs something, he will tell one of the lawyers and they 22 will tell me or tell, you know -- an indirect way, yes. 23 Q. But you were communicating with him? 24 A. Was I communicating? 25 Q. You would send a letter with your comments to the Sheikh SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10501 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 and he would send a letter back with his comments to you, 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And so, that's a form of communication, right? 5 A. Yes, I mean -- 6 Q. You were able to -- 7 A. I mean, yes, I mean -- 8 Q. You were able to exchange ideas? 9 A. I was able to, yes, to tell him what, you know, what I -- 10 what I want or, you know, what I was told and he will answer 11 back. 12 Q. When you communicated with him by letter, that was 13 typically only when there was going to be a prison visit, 14 right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you ever try to send one of your letters to Sheikh 17 Abdel Rahman directly through the mail? 18 A. I was urging people to send him mail. 19 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was, did you ever try 20 to communicate with Sheikh Abdel Rahman directly through the 21 mail? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You knew you could have done that, right? 24 A. I'm sorry? 25 Q. You knew that that was permissible, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10502 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. I know it was permissible to send him letters. I don't 2 think it was -- I'm not sure if it was permissible or not 3 permissible, according to the SAM, to send him letters or not, 4 but I always urge people to send him letters so the authority 5 will know that there is people who care about him out there. 6 Q. So, you urged people to do it but you weren't sure whether 7 it was permissible? 8 A. I'm not -- I was not sure whether it was permissible or 9 not. 10 Q. But you never sent Sheikh Abdel Rahman a letter directly 11 through the mail? 12 A. No. Me, I know the Sheikh will not be -- the Sheikh cannot 13 read. I'm not there, you know, to send him a letter, you know, 14 that he's not going to be able to read. 15 Q. Well, you could have sent him a recording, right? 16 A. I could send him what? 17 Q. A recording, a tape recording. 18 A. I don't think if I could have done that, you know. I have 19 to give it to the lawyer and the lawyer will have to send it to 20 him. 21 Q. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Sattar, that Sheikh Abdel Rahman was 22 sent tape recordings all the time? 23 A. That was before the SAM. 24 Q. No, even after the SAMs he was sent recordings, wasn't he, 25 of the Quran? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10503 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Just a second, Mr. Morvillo; through the lawyers? 2 Q. Through the mails? 3 A. Through the mails? I think, you know, anything that you 4 have to send to the Sheikh, any tape recordings that you have 5 to sent to the Sheikh it will go through the lawyers. His 6 family attempted to send him tape recorders, Quranic tape 7 recorders, and the Bureau of Prisons never accept it from them. 8 They send it back to his lawyer. 9 So I was under the impression, or my understanding 10 was, you know, he is not supposed to receive tape recorders 11 unless it is coming through the lawyers. 12 Q. When you say "tape recorders" you mean "tape recordings"? 13 A. I mean tape recording. I'm sorry, yes. 14 Q. Or the actual -- 15 A. The tapes themselves, yes. 16 Q. But you never, yourself, tried to record a message for 17 Sheikh Abdel Rahman on tape and send it to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 18 in the prison without going through the lawyers? 19 A. No, I never tried to do so without going through the 20 lawyers. 21 Q. And when you were working with him at the MCC, you used to 22 make recordings for him all the time, right? 23 A. Yes, he was permitted to receive that. There was no SAM 24 involved, there was nothing involved. He was permitted to 25 receive that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10504 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Sattar, that the contents of the 2 communications that you have had with Sheikh Abdel Rahman, if 3 you would put them on tape recordings, never would have been 4 permitted to have been provided to Abdel Rahman? 5 A. I don't know that. But, you know, he was not supposed to 6 receive tape recordings from individuals. People saying hello, 7 how are you, how are you doing? I love you. He is not 8 supposed to receive that. 9 He was, all the tapes that he was receiving they were 10 Quranic tapes, some books, some -- as I found out during the 11 trial some songs, but, you know. I mean, there was a book that 12 was put on a tape recorder and sent. As a matter of fact, the 13 Taha's book that we spoke about it here in the trial, it was 14 put on a tape recorder and sent it to him and it was not 15 permitted and it came back through the lawyers. 16 Q. Are you talking about Taha's book? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Are you surprised that that book was not allowed to go to 19 Abdel Rahman in prison? 20 A. I'm not saying I'm surprised or I'm not surprised. I'm 21 just telling you, you know, that, explaining to you the 22 procedures or what I understood. 23 Q. So, you knew that Taha's book was put on tape? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. To send to Abdel Rahman? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10505 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, and it went through, it went -- you know, it went 2 through Mr. Jabara. He is the one who took it and send it. 3 Q. Who put it on tape? 4 A. I'm not quite sure. It was not me, per se, you know. It's 5 not my voice, it was somebody else's who recorded, he actually 6 read the book on tape. It was -- let me just try to remember 7 here. It was probably one of the wives of -- one of the 8 Sheikh's associates. 9 Q. So your understanding was that one of the Sheikh's wives 10 associates -- 11 A. One of the Sheikh -- yes. 12 Q. -- read Rifa'i Taha's book onto a tape? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Made it a book on tape and sent it and tried to send it to 15 Sheikh Abdel Rahman? 16 A. It was given to Abdeen Jabara and Abdeen Jabara sent it to 17 the Sheikh. 18 Q. And that was rejected by the Bureau of Prisons? 19 A. That was rejected. 20 You see, you actually introduced that letter in 21 evidence about those six tapes, this is what that was. 22 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, you testified on direct examination that 23 you did not engage in any conduct intended to get around the 24 SAMs restrictions, right? 25 A. Did I? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10506 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You did not engage in any conduct to get around the SAMs 4 restrictions? 5 A. No. 6 Q. You possessed a number of documents relating to the Special 7 Administrative Measures, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I publish to the jury 10 Government Exhibit 2035X, in evidence, which is admitted with 11 respect to Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent and state of mind? 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recognize this document that's on the 14 screen? 15 A. I have seen it, yes. 16 Q. And this is the regulations that, pursuant to which the 17 Special Administrative Measures were implemented, right? 18 A. I guess, yes. 19 Q. And you possessed this document, right? 20 A. Well, yes. You know, it was introduced in evidence, yes. 21 Q. Well, it came from your apartment, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know where you got it? 24 A. Do I know where I got it? I probably got it from Mr. Clark 25 or -- I'm not quite sure who exactly gave it to me. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10507 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you display the second page? 2 And do you know when you got this document? 3 A. When? I can't tell you exactly when. 4 Q. It was fairly soon after the SAMs were implemented? 5 A. Yes. Probably, yes. I cannot say sooner or later but 6 probably after the SAM was imposed. 7 Q. Did you read the document when you got it? 8 A. I probably went through it but I cannot say that I read it, 9 you know, and all. I really don't recall. 10 You are asking me about things that happened in 1997 11 and I really don't -- or 1998. I really can't, to sit here and 12 honestly tell you that I read it all or I read just parts of it 13 or I just looked through it. I can't. 14 Q. This was something that you asked to ob -- you tried to 15 obtain this document, right? 16 A. Tried to what? 17 Q. This is a document that you actually sought, right? 18 A. Yes. It was in my -- it was taken from my apartment. 19 Q. And the reason why you asked for this document, the reason 20 why you possessed it is because you were interested in knowing 21 why you were cut off from your friend? 22 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I object. Assuming facts 23 not in evidence. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. It's a question. 25 Ladies and gentlemen, questions are not evidence, only SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10508 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 the answers are evidence. 2 THE WITNESS: Would you please repeat your question? 3 THE COURT: The reporter can read it back. 4 (Record read) 5 THE WITNESS: I really don't remember that I asked for 6 this document or what was the circumstances surrounding me 7 having this document. I cannot sit here and honestly tell you 8 what was going on back then. 9 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 10 Q. And this document says, does it not, that the reason why 11 SAMs can be implemented upon someone is where there is a 12 substantial risk that a prisoner's communications or contacts 13 with persons could result in death or serious bodily injury to 14 persons, or substantial damage to property that would entail 15 the risk of death or serious bodily injury to persons. 16 Right? 17 A. I don't know where you are reading at. 18 Yes, this is what it says. 19 Q. And so, you knew at the time that the SAMs were 20 implemented, or around the time that the SAMs were implemented, 21 that they were imposed on Sheikh Abdel Rahman to prevent other 22 people from being subject to acts of terrorism? 23 A. I can't say that. I know that you know, because, you know, 24 I know that it was implemented on him just to isolate him from 25 everybody. This was my understanding back then. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10509 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You knew it was extremely rare that inmates were subject to 2 Special Administrative Measures, right? 3 A. Yes, I knew that. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 5 Government Exhibit 2058, in evidence, which is offered with 6 respect to Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent and state of mind? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recognize this document? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you show the second page? 11 The second page of this document is a flier, right? 12 A. A flier, yes. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I show the jury 14 Government Exhibit 2058T, in evidence? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. And this is the translation of that document, right, 17 Mr. Sattar? 18 A. Of which document? 19 Q. Of the newspaper article. The first one is a newspaper 20 article? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that newspaper article is about a threat issued by a 23 terrorist group called the Vanguards of Conquest against the 24 United States, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10510 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And this is something that you had? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And the second page -- Ms. Griffith, if you could scroll 4 down and highlight where it says page 2 to the bottom? 5 This was the flier that was on the back of that 6 article, right? 7 A. The flier, it was in the back of that article? I really 8 don't know if it was in the back of that article. 9 Q. It was attached to that article, right, when it was found 10 in your search? 11 A. I don't know. I never -- I mean I really don't know if it 12 was attached or not attached. 13 You know, it was -- this is a flier and this is an 14 article. I don't know. I mean a newspaper article. I don't 15 know if they were attached. 16 Q. And this flier was announcing a speech that Abdeen Jabara 17 was going to give, right? 18 A. The flier, yes, is announcing a speech that Jabara is going 19 to give. 20 Q. And this speech was in 1997, it was in May of 1997, do you 21 recall? 22 A. I am not sure, you know, if I can see. 23 Q. I will show you the translation which you can see in a 24 second. 25 A. Can I see the article itself, please, if I may? Or the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10511 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 flier itself so I can just take a look at it? 2 Q. You want the Arab version? 3 A. The Arab version, please. 4 MR. MORVILLO: May I approach, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes, but make it clear what you are 6 showing the witness. 7 Q. Mr. Sattar, I'm showing you what's in evidence as 8 Government Exhibit 2058. 9 A. Yes, I see it. 10 Q. Ms. Griffith, if we can go back to the translation. 11 The last sentence of, on this page, which announces of 12 the flier, says the Sheikh's health has deteriorated and he was 13 denied all outside contacts. He is not -- 14 Can you go to the next page, Ms. Griffith? 15 -- allowed to get visitors or make any phone calls, 16 except to his attorneys and in the presence of an interpreter 17 who is endorsed by the government, while the government itself 18 prohibits the interpreter from explaining to the prison doctor 19 his health problems. 20 And if you see down at the bottom it's May 31st of 21 1997, is the speech that Mr. Jabara is going to give, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that's the description, is it not, of the Special 24 Administrative Measures contained in this document? 25 A. Yes. And it's all, I mean, it's a description of my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10512 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 understanding of the document. 2 You know, I'm saying here that he was isolated, nobody 3 is allowed to visit him and just what I just told you that, you 4 know, he is isolated, nobody is allowed to visit him except his 5 attorneys. 6 Q. And you wrote this flier? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 9 Government Exhibit 2037? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: And, your Honor, this is in evidence 12 with respect to both Ms. Stewart and Mr. Sattar. 13 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is an affirmation that was faxed to you 14 by, from the Law Offices of Lynne Stewart, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the date of the fax is May 7th of 1998? 17 A. Yes, I see that. Yes. 18 Q. Why did you have this document? 19 A. Why did I have it? It was just another document, another 20 SAM document was given to me by one of the lawyers. 21 Q. Did you read it? 22 A. I just, you know, I went through it again and I cannot just 23 say, you know, I read it all. It -- 24 Q. But you knew that this was an affirmation that the lawyers 25 had to sign before they were permitted to have access to Sheikh SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10513 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Abdel Rahman, right? 2 A. I know that you know, Lynne Stewart's signature is on it. 3 I mean at the time I can't -- I can't recall, you know, what I 4 really knew about it but, you know, I mean that I know that 5 Ms. Stewart's signature is there. 6 Q. And this is something that you possessed and that you kept, 7 right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to the second page? And can you 10 highlight the paragraph that's in brackets? 11 The original document someone put, in handwriting, 12 brackets next to subparagraph 3A. 13 Do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you do that? 16 A. No, I did not. 17 Q. And the part that's bracketed reads: The inmate is 18 prohibited from passing or receiving any written or recorded 19 communications to or from other inmates, visitors attorneys, 20 BOP staff, or anyone else except as outlined and allowed by 21 this document. 22 Right? 23 A. This is what it says, yes. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 25 Government Exhibit 2061 -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10514 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. MORVILLO: -- in evidence? And this also is 3 offered solely with respect to Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent 4 and state of mind. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 7 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is another document that was recovered 8 from your apartment during the search? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And this is the cover page of the May 11th, 1998 SAMs? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And this, too, was faxed to you in early May of 1998, 13 right? As you can see from the fax line? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 16 Government Exhibit 2063, in evidence, with the same limiting 17 instruction? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 Q. And Mr. Sattar, this is another version of the SAMs that 20 you had in your possession in, when your apartment was searched 21 in April of 2002, right? 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. And this one is dated April 7th, 1999, modified December 24 10th, 1999, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10515 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And it's your understanding that this version is the 2 version that was in effect during the May 2000 prison visit? 3 A. To me the SAM was the SAM. I mean, from 1997 to 1999 to 4 today, the technicality of the SAM I really don't understand. 5 All I understand is you know, this was just to isolate Sheikh 6 Omar Abdel Rahman and keep him away from everybody. 7 This is -- I can sit here and say I understand this or 8 I understand that. If there is anything to be understand it 9 was, you know, I will ask one of the lawyers and he will 10 probably explain to me. 11 Q. So you never wondered why you kept getting new versions of 12 the SAMs, they kept getting longer and longer? 13 A. I understood the SAM was supposed to be renewed every 120 14 days. This is what, you know -- every three months the SAM 15 should be renewed or every four months. This is what I 16 understood. I did not know that was, to modify to this, to do 17 this to do that. 18 All the things I, you know, it was not on my mind back 19 then, even until I was arrested. 20 Q. Now, you spoke a lot about the Special Administrative 21 Measures on the telephone calls, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 24 Government Exhibit 1003X, in evidence? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10516 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone call that occurred on 2 December 14th of 1998 between yourself and Mustafa Hamza? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And, in fact, this was probably the first time that you 5 ever spoke to Mustafa Hamza, right? 6 A. It could be. I'm not sure. 7 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go, I think it's page 22, and can you 8 highlight lines 15 through 23? No. 9 Mr. Sattar, you are talking to Mr. Hamza here and you 10 are talking about Special Administrative Measures, right? Do 11 you want to read the attributions? 12 A. Yes, please. I need to read it. 13 Yes. 14 Q. And let me read it to you. There is a section in there in 15 law, it is a new section, and according to it they segregated 16 the Sheikh from the world. Any, any person who is convicted 17 for a terrorist crime, he must... the prison has the right to 18 segregate him. He is it not allowed to make telephone calls. 19 He is not allowed to eh, eh, to meet anyone except upon a 20 judicial order. Even the media interviews have been cut off, 21 according to the law. You have to file for lawsuits -- 22 You said that, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And that was in December of 1998? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10517 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And so, you were under the impression that it was a law, 2 correct, that was imposed on the Sheikh? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that he could not have telephone calls, right? With 5 anyone other than his attorneys? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that he couldn't have meetings with anyone other than 8 his attorneys, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And he couldn't have any interviews with the media, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 13 Government Exhibit 1005X, in evidence? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone call on January 26, 1999. 16 Again, this is between yourself and Mustafa Hamza. 17 Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 5? 18 And Mr. Sattar, I'm going to read to you lines 16 19 through 21 where you tell Mustafa Hamza: This... this... this 20 is very difficult. For your information, the Sheikh is 21 governed by a law which only six out of... of... one million... 22 one million and seven hundred prisoners are under the 23 restrictions of that law. Only six out of one million and 24 seven hundred persons are governed by that law, okay? A month 25 ago eh... exactly on March, 1979 --" SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10518 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Incidentally, 1979 is wrong, it is 1997? 2 A. Could be 1997, yes. 3 Q. He was not subject to Special Administrative Measures in 4 1979, right? 5 A. He was not even in the United States in 1979 so it could 6 be. 7 Q. It is either a typographic error or you misspoke? 8 A. Yes, probably. 9 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you could go down, and lines 23 and 24 you 10 say to Mustafa Hamza: The restrictions started on his 11 communications, restrictions on his calls to any person or 12 restrictions on seeing anyone. 13 And he says: Yes. 14 Ms. Griffith, can you go to the next page? 15 And then you say: That law eh... eh... according to 16 that law, it is possible to prevent his lawyer from visiting 17 him. 18 And then continuing you say: Sometimes they overlook 19 certain things but if it happened that they... based on news 20 published at Al-Hayat saying for example that the Sheikh talked 21 to his lawyer and said so and so and so, ah. 22 He says: Yes. 23 You say: So they eh... based on what was said, they 24 say that it is, stop him... this man should not be allowed to 25 talk to anyone. A person should be very careful in e... SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10519 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 because there is ep, ep, ep, there is a very small window which 2 is still open. I don't want to close it. To reopen... to 3 reopen it I will go through... through legal issues which might 4 take years. 5 And then you go on and you say: This is why a person 6 should be careful in, eh..., even... even Ramsey Clark himself, 7 when he talks on behalf of the Sheikh, something like that, he 8 ep... ep... carefully select his words. 9 Did I read that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And so, from this we can see that you knew that the SAMs 12 were extremely rare, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. One out of -- six out of one million prisoners? 15 A. Yes, you know this is how I understood it at the time. 16 Q. And you also knew that if any communications from the 17 Sheikh were printed in the newspapers, the lawyers might get 18 cut off from Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 19 A. This is what I was told, yes. 20 Q. And so you knew if there were press reports about Sheikh 21 Abdel Rahman said so and so, he could be cut off from his 22 lawyers? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And so you knew that that was a violation of the SAMs if 25 there were, if information about the Sheikh, from the Sheikh SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10520 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 was published in the newspapers, right, from the lawyers? 2 A. I don't know if that was a violation of the SAM but I 3 understood, you know, that, you know, the Sheikh would be cut 4 off from the world. I mean from even his lawyers. 5 This is what I was told, this is what I -- this is how 6 it was explained to me back then and this is how I understood 7 it. 8 Q. And when you said to Mustafa Hamza there is a very small 9 window which is still open; that window that you were referring 10 to was passing messages in through the lawyers, right? 11 A. That was the window that I'm talking about, it was a window 12 for the Sheikh to look on the outside world, not to be totally 13 isolated from the outside world, you know. Reading the news -- 14 I did not finish, Mr. Morvillo. 15 Reading the newspapers was the Sheikh's window to the 16 world, so he could, you know -- I mean without this, without 17 the phone calls, without lawyers going to visit him, the man 18 would be cut completely from the world. He would be buried 19 alive and this is what I meant. It is only a small window open 20 for the man to breathe. 21 Q. Yes, Mr. Sattar -- 22 A. That's what I meant. 23 Q. My question to you was the window to the lawyers, right? 24 A. The windows was the lawyers? I, you know, the windows was 25 the process that the lawyers -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10521 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. No one else can communicate with him, Mr. Sattar, right? 2 It was just the lawyers? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So that was the window, wasn't it? 5 A. It was the process that the lawyers, you know, reading the 6 newspapers. This is what I meant by the window that was open 7 for him, just reading the newspapers, telling him things. You 8 know, I -- I cannot just say answer the windows was -- the 9 windows were the lawyers. I can't say that. 10 Q. You couldn't call him on the phone and read him the 11 newspapers, right? 12 A. No, I can't. 13 Q. And so, when you told him that there was a very small 14 window that was open, you were talking about the fact that the 15 lawyers have access to him, right? 16 A. Could be yes. 17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 18 Government Exhibit 1016X, in evidence? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, this is a call between yourself and Yasir 21 Al-Sirri on April 29th of 1999? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to the second page? 24 And during this call, Mr. Al-Sirri is inquiring 25 whether it would be possible for Sheikh Abdel Rahman to meet SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10522 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 with a representative of the media, right? 2 A. I'm not quite sure. I need to read. 3 Q. Do you know who Anwar Haddam is? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And he's a reporter? 6 A. Anwar Haddam is not a reporter, no. 7 Q. Who is he? 8 A. Anwar Haddam was Algerian who was jailed in the United 9 States under the so-called secret evidence, and he has been two 10 and a half years in jail before he was granted political asylum 11 in the United States. This is Anwar Haddam. 12 Q. And Ms. Griffith, can you go back to the prior. I'm sorry. 13 Down to the bottom. 14 At lines 11 and 12 you say: And what does this guy 15 from Al-Quds Al-Arabi want to do? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Is Al-Quds a newspaper? 18 A. Al-Quds Al-Arabi is a newspaper published in London, yes. 19 Q. Mr. Al-Sirri responds to, he wants to come to America and 20 do interviews and stuff like that, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you ask him: With who? 23 And he says: With Sheikh Omar. 24 And then you say: Sheikh Omar, no. He will not be 25 able to met him. But if he wants to meet with Anwar Haddam for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10523 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 instance, this is possible. 2 A. I was referring to Anwar Haddam here, I would consider him 3 a political prisoner at the time and so if he, you know, his 4 case also was of a high profile case so I, this is what I was 5 saying. He can't meet with the Sheikh but if he wants to meet 6 with Anwar Haddam, I can arrange that. 7 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go down a bit? 8 The reasons you couldn't arrange it, Mr. Sattar, are 9 apparent from line 7 through 10, right? 10 You say: He will not be able to meet with Sheikh Omar 11 because he is under what they call eh... "Special 12 Administrative Measures," meaning eh, ah certain administrative 13 measures that pertain to him. He cannot meet nor talk to 14 anybody. He is isolated. 15 Right? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I publish to the jury 18 Goverment Exhibit 1071X, in evidence? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. And Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone call that you had with 21 Mr. Al-Sirri on April 13th of 2000, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that's just about a month before the May 2000 prison 24 visit? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10524 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 3? 2 And here you are talking with Mr. Al-Sirri again about 3 the Special Administrative Measures, right? 4 A. Can I just read it, please? 5 Yes. 6 Q. And at line 17 you are referring to the Special 7 Administrative Measures, you say: They imposed eight pages' 8 restriction on him. 9 Right? 10 A. Yes. Yes. 11 Q. And the eight pages that you are talking about are the 12 Special Administrative Measures, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And so, you were pretty familiar with the SAMs if you knew 15 that they were eight pages, right? 16 A. I know they were eight pages. I, you know, it doesn't mean 17 that I really know, you know, every line of those eight pages. 18 I know they were a document eight pages, you know, imposed on 19 the Sheikh, yes. 20 Q. Right, because you had read them before, right? 21 A. I'm sorry? 22 Q. Because you had read them. You had them? 23 A. Because I had read them? 24 Q. Because you had read them. 25 A. Because I was told about them and I had them. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10525 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you possessed them? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you counted the pages one day, right? 4 A. I kept them in my possession, Mr. Morvillo. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 6 Government Exhibit 1119X? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. MORVILLO: In evidence. 9 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone call on June 18th of 2000 10 between yourself and Rifa'i Taha? 11 A. Yes. Yes. 12 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 3? 13 And at line 6 you state: The lawyers, before the 14 lawyer... em... em... em... before he gets the permission for 15 the visit, he signs papers saying that he is not allowed to say 16 anything or pass anything... 17 Right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And then you say: Or, or -- 20 Then you say: That is why I told that you this woman 21 risk her whole future. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You are referring to Lynne Stewart there, right? 24 A. I was referring to Ms. Stewart, yes. 25 Q. And so you knew that the Special Administrative Measures SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10526 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 prohibited passing information from Sheikh Abdel Rahman to the 2 media, right? 3 A. Yes, I was -- I was told that, yes. 4 Q. And you were aware of that since 1997 pretty, pretty much? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. 1998 at least? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And when you are referring to the fact that Ms. Stewart 9 risk her whole future here, what you are talking about is her 10 issuance of the press release on June 14th of 2000, right? 11 A. Yes. Her issuance but, you know, when I am saying that she 12 risk her whole future here it was just, you know, a little bit 13 of exaggeration here. I was under the impression back then, 14 you know, if anything like this happened that the lawyer will 15 be cut from seeing the Sheikh and if this is happened it will 16 be bad for the lawyer. It will put her in a bad light. I did 17 not know it will accumulate to, you know, what was -- 18 Q. So, what you are saying is that you were exaggerating when 19 you said -- 20 THE COURT: Stop. 21 You have to go one at a time. The reporter can't get 22 down both people speaking. 23 I'm sorry, finish the answer. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was exaggerating when I said, you 25 know, she is risking her whole future. What I meant at the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10527 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 time it was just, you know, she is going to be cut from 2 visiting the Sheikh. 3 Q. And that was because it was your understanding that the 4 Special Administrative Measures had been violated? 5 A. That the Special Administrative Measures -- you know, I 6 was -- I never thought it was or, you know, I did not think it 7 was the Special Administrative Measures were violated, were 8 violated. I know Mr. Ramsey Clark issued press releases on 9 behalf of the Sheikh and I -- and I know that Jabara issued 10 also things on behalf of the Sheikh and I know Ms. Stewart 11 issued things on behalf of the Sheikh. 12 So it was, to me that was something -- you know, it's 13 happening on a regular basis, happening more than once, two 14 times, three times by different people. 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, my question was, you knew when you said this 16 that she risked her whole future, that it was relating to the 17 Special Administrative Measures, right? 18 A. It was related to the Special Administrative Measures, yes. 19 Q. And you knew that the Special Administrative Measures were 20 implemented by the United States Attorney General, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And at the time that the Special Administrative Measures 23 were implemented on Sheikh Abdel Rahman, the Attorney General 24 was Janet Reno, right? 25 A. In 1997, yes. Up to 2000, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10528 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you also knew that the Special Administrative Measures 2 needed to be renewed every 120 days, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, why don't we take a 5 10 minute break. 6 Please, please, remember my continuing instructions. 7 Please don't talk about the case at all. Always remember to 8 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I 9 have instructed you on the law. 10 All rise, please. 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10529 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: The one juror indicated the need for a 6 break. 7 Could I see the parties? 8 (Page 10530 SEALED by order of the Court) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10531 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 (In open court; recess) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. I think that I 3 should advise the jurors that we will sit until 3:15 tomorrow 4 and that I expect to have further information with respect to 5 scheduling as the week goes on. 6 Is that satisfactory? 7 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right, if Mr. Sattar will take the 9 stand? 10 (Witness resumes stand) 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, do you want me to resume 12 the lectern? 13 THE COURT: Yes, please. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10532 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 All right. Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 4 Mr. Fletcher. 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 6 you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you. Your Honor, may I display, 10 for the jury, Government Exhibit 11? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. MORVILLO: I'm sorry, Government Exhibit 1132X. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone call on June 19th of 2000 16 between yourself, Mustafa Hamza, and Mohammed Abdel Rahman, 17 right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And, incidentally, with respect to this call, you didn't 20 connect Mustafa Hamza and Mohammed Abdel Rahman, right? They 21 were together? 22 A. They were, yes, they were at the same place, I believe, 23 yes. 24 Q. So you spoke with Mustafa Hamza first and then he handed 25 the phone apparently to Mohammed Abdel Rahman, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10533 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 (Continued on next page) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10534 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 Q. If you could go to Page 3. Line 25, Mr. Sattar, you tell 2 Omar Abdel Rahman, the restrictions imposed on him, the 3 restrictions imposed on the Sheikh prevent communicating 4 anything to him or from him. You said that, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 7 Government Exhibit 1177 X? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 BY MR. MORVILLO: 10 Q. This is a call on September 25th of 2000 between yourself 11 and again Mohammad Abdel Rahman, and that's Sheikh Abdel 12 Rahman's son, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. MORVILLO: Can you go to Page 4. 15 BY MR. MORVILLO: 16 Q. At line 3 through 6, you say truthfully, I am watching it 17 now. There is almost nothing new, all the -- I mean -- just so 18 that you know, the Sheikh is still, I mean, since '97 and until 19 now, this is over three years, he is forbidden everything. He 20 is not permitted to -- and then Omar Abdel Rahman said yes. 21 And you say meet anyone. He does not speak to anyone, even his 22 phone calls are suspended except to the family, ah, visits, 23 except the attorneys and the translators are not allowed. 24 He says yes. And you said there isn't a meeting, 25 there is not a prisoner in the United States who suffers like SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10535 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 he does. He is prohibited from -- regular prisoners, Jew, 2 Christian or Muslim is permitted to pray. He is not allowed to 3 the prayer service or communal prayer even though it is allowed 4 in prisons. 5 Omar Abdel Rahman says yes. And you say, at line 18, 6 all these things apply to him. Besides, his health conditions 7 and his health. Omar Abdel Rahman simultaneously says do they 8 have a reason for that? Are they saying anything or, or are 9 they just apply this and that's it. 10 You respond to him by saying, at line 24, they just 11 apply. They are saying, ah, they have applied this law to him 12 and said that the most dangerous thing about this man is his 13 words or the words that reach his followers. This is a man 14 guilty of terrorism, Omar Abdel Rahman says yes, and you say 15 ah, ah, in, ah, terrorism, any word out of him has an effect on 16 people's lives, ah, abroad, so we must cut everything off from 17 him. 18 You said that, right? 19 A. Yes, I was referring to the letter from Mr. Fitzgerald that 20 he was speaking about his communication with the lawyers. 21 Q. And how he has been cut off, right? 22 A. Yes. This is when I was saying those things about the 23 Sheikh, notice was referring to Mr. Fitzgerald's letter and he 24 was in 2000, sometime in 2000. 2001, I am not quite sure. 25 Q. But you were generally describing the sentence for him, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10536 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 right, because you said these were restrictions imposed in 2 1997? 3 A. I am generally -- what I am describing to the Sheikh's son 4 is his father's condition, what he was suffering in prison 5 then, and what he is going through in prison, and then he asked 6 me why, I referred to Mr. Fitzgerald's letter, that is why, you 7 know, that is what Mr. Fitzgerald was saying. 8 Q. You don't say that here. 9 What you say is they apply a law to him, and that said 10 that the most dangerous thing about Sheikh Abdel Rahman is his 11 words? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. That was your reference not to Pat Fitzgerald's letter, but 14 to the -- 15 A. This was exactly what Mr. Fitzgerald was saying in his 16 letter, the most dangerous thing about this man is his words. 17 So this, this is what I was referring to. 18 Q. You also knew that the purpose of the special 19 administrative measures was to prevent the communication of 20 Sheikh's words outside of the prison, right? 21 A. That is what I said, and I said it so many times. It is 22 just to keep him isolated from everybody, yes. 23 Q. Right, because it was your understanding that the United 24 States Government was concerned that his words could cause 25 deaths and destruction, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10537 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 A. As at this time it was, that was a concern that was written 2 in Mr. Fitzgerald's letter to I believe Mr. Clark. So this was 3 my understanding. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 5 Exhibit 1222 X in evidence? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 BY MR. MORVILLO: 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a call on January 8th of 2001 with 9 Rafa'l Taha. Would go to Page 14. At line 8, at line 9, 10 Rafa'l says maybe, maybe the Sheikh meant that his son -- but 11 they may not be obligated. But this will be difficult to do. 12 You respond by saying no, no, this will be very, very, 13 very difficult for them if they sign and they don't abide. 14 Taha says of course it is difficult. You say if they sign and 15 they don't abide by, they will be put -- they will put them on 16 trial. 17 You said that, right? 18 A. I said that in 2001, referring to Mr. Fitzgerald, the new 19 restrictions he was putting on the Sheikh and the new planning 20 that he was adding, and Mr. Clark and Ms. Stewart and the 21 Sheikh referred refused to sign it. I was referring to that. 22 I was not referring to the saying that was applied at 23 the time. I was referring to the new things that 24 Mr. Fitzgerald wants to add and the lawyers objected to it. 25 Q. What you were telling Rafa'l Taha, if the lawyers sign the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10538 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 affirmation and they didn't abide by it, they could be put on 2 trial, yes? 3 A. This is how it was explained to me, yes. 4 Q. So that was your understanding then? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You can take that down, Ms. Griffith. Thank you. 7 Now, Mr. Sattar, with one exception, the recordings 8 that were introduced into evidence here in this case start in 9 November of 1998, right? 10 A. The recordings? 11 Q. The transcripts and the recordings of the telephone calls? 12 A. They start in November 1998? 13 Q. Right. 14 A. I thought, you know, it started in '95. 15 Q. No. What I am talking about is what was actually 16 introduced into evidence. The first call in evidence is 17 Government Exhibit 1001? 18 A. Between me and Rafa'l Taha. 19 Q. The first call in evidence is Government Exhibit 1001 X, 20 and that is call between you and your wife about a statement by 21 Mustafa Hamza in 1996? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. The second call in chronological order is a telephone call 24 that you received, a voice mail from Ms. Stewart in November of 25 1998, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10539 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. And the remainder of the calls are from November of 1998 up 3 through 2001? 4 A. Yeah, probably, yes. 5 Q. You testified about your knowledge of Sheikh Abdel Rahman, 6 and you knew that his conviction and his sentence -- you knew 7 all about that, but you also knew, did you not, that upon his 8 conviction and sentence, obtaining his release became a cause 9 of the Islamic Group, right? 10 A. Obtaining his release became a cause of the Islamic Group? 11 No, I cannot say that. 12 I can say that from the day he was arrested in 1993, 13 there were -- the Islamic Group was issuing statements left and 14 right, I mean on every occasion, issuing statements on his 15 behalf. 16 Q. When you say "statements," they're really threats against 17 the United States Government, right? 18 A. Yes, you can say threats. 19 Q. And you knew that the Islamic Group in general was outraged 20 over the conviction and imprisonment of its emir, right? 21 A. They were, yes, outraged. 22 Q. And they wanted Abdel Rahman to be free from prison, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And so they threatened to attack all American interests 25 until the Sheikh was freed, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10540 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 A. There were some threats made, yes. 2 Q. Are you familiar with a statement issued by the Islamic 3 Group, stating: 4 "All American interests will be legitimate targets for 5 our struggle until the release of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and 6 his brothers," as the American Government has opted for open 7 confrontation with the Islamic movement and the Islamic symbols 8 of struggle -- Al-Gamaa al-Islamiya swears by God to its 9 irreversible vow to take an eye for an eye"? 10 A. I think I heard that, yes. 11 Q. That was a statement issued right at the time of his 12 sentencing, right? 13 A. I am not quite sure when it was issued, but if you say so, 14 you know better than me. 15 Q. Well, let me see if I can refresh your recollection. 16 MR. MORVILLO: May I approach, your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 (Pause) 19 BY MR. MORVILLO: 20 Q. Mr. Sattar, I have handed you what has been marked for 21 identification as Government Exhibit 804. Can you read that to 22 yourself, in particular the first four paragraphs, and let me 23 me when you're finished with it. 24 A. (Pause) Yes. 25 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that the Islamic Group SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10541 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 issued a statement, the statement I just read to you in or 2 about January of 1996? 3 A. This was published in the newspaper, yes. I mean according 4 to this, yes. I mean there were so many statements already, 5 you know, issued. I mean according to this, yes. It does not 6 surprise me. 7 Q. You're familiar with a statement issued April of 1996 by 8 Mustafa Hamza, one in which you spoke with your wife about on 9 the telephone, in which he said that the question of kidnapping 10 Americans to hold as ransom for Sheikh Abdel Rahman is in the 11 cards, not without under consideration, right? 12 A. I am familiar with -- 13 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I just had a chance to read 14 Government Exhibit 804, and I would like to be heard. 15 THE COURT: We'll take it up at the break. 16 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, but before we're finished 17 for the day. 18 THE COURT: Oh, well, why don't we take five minutes, 19 ladies and gentlemen. Please remember my continuing 20 instructions not to talk about the case, keep an open mind, and 21 the jury will go to the jury room. Remember, don't talk about 22 the case, keep an open mind. 23 (Jury excused) 24 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar, may step down for the moment. 25 I thought it was a convenient time for the break. The one SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10542 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 juror signaled that he was fine, but -- 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 804 is an 3 article from the Associated Press, and it says that a militant 4 Muslim group has threatened to attack American targets, et 5 cetera, and then a newspaper reporter reported Sunday. The 6 penultimate paragraph of the story says there was no way to 7 independently verify the statement. Similar claims from the 8 group have gone in the past Al Hayat. 9 In short, your Honor, there was no good-faith basis 10 whatever to read that highly inflammatory eye for eye an 11 language to this jury, and I ask that the court tell the jury 12 Mr. Morvillo did not have a good-faith basis and that they 13 should disregard all references to this alleged statement. 14 The witness did not adopt the refreshment of 15 recollection, and the refreshment recollection gamble was, your 16 Honor, in my respectful submission, was just that, a gamble. 17 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Morvillo. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the statement was made. 19 Mr. Sattar even testified that he believes he heard 20 that statement and read it at the time. I don't think there 21 was anything inappropriate about bringing this statement to his 22 attention, asking him if he was familiar with it with respect 23 to this time period and this individual article. 24 THE COURT: All right. I agree with that except that 25 I'll remind the jury that questions are not evidence, only SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10543 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 answers are evidence. The witness testified that he had heard 2 or thought he heard comments like that, though it is not clear 3 that he eventually adopted that as something that he had heard. 4 So it is sufficient, and I will instruct the jury to 5 remember that questions are never evidence, only answers are 6 evidence. 7 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor please, the testimony is I 8 think I heard that, yes. There were some threats made, and so 9 on, so what he heard or read was that somebody said a 10 confrontation, but if it wasn't the Islamic Group that did it, 11 then its relevance to this case is minimal, approaching zero. 12 That was my point, that the question lacked the good-faith 13 basis to the extent it was attributed to the Islamic Group and 14 that the witness never adopted such a statement. 15 So I understand the ruling your Honor has made, I am 16 not arguing with it, I am respectfully disagreeing with your 17 Honor's view of the record, but I understand the court's 18 ruling. 19 THE COURT: All right. Why don't we bring the jurors 20 back. 21 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I am not sure what 22 instruction -- 23 THE COURT: My instruction is, "I remind you, ladies 24 and gentlemen, questions are never evidence, only answers are 25 evidence." SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10544 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 MR. MORVILLO: Right, but in what he said in response 2 to my question, which was are you familiar with the statement 3 issued by the Islamic Group, stating, he said, "I think I heard 4 that, yes." 5 THE COURT: Well, I said his answers were somewhat 6 equivocal and that the instruction is an appropriate 7 instruction to remind the jurors that simply because something 8 is included in a question does not make it evidence. It is 9 only the answers that are evidence. 10 So it is only so much of what a witness recalls and 11 testifies to that is evidence, and that's, first, plainly 12 correct; and, secondly, plainly an appropriate instruction in 13 response to the objection. 14 All right. Okay. Mr. Sattar should retake the stand, 15 please. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, do you want to break at 17 4:30? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (Jury present) 20 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. All right. 21 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher. 22 THE CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're still 23 under oath. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 25 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I remind you that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10545 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 questions are not evidence. It is the answers that are 2 evidence. All right. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I believe there is a 4 question pending when the objection was made. Can I have that 5 read back. 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 (Record read) 8 A. Yes, I am familiar with it. 9 BY MR. MORVILLO: 10 Q. And that statement was discussed with you between you and 11 your wife in Government Exhibit 1001, right, in April -- 12 withdrawn -- there is a transcript of a telephone call between 13 you and your wife, in which you discussed the fact that the 14 statement was made, right? 15 A. She told me that was a statement made. It is not that it 16 was a discussion. It was just she told me did you read that 17 statement, is what she said. 18 Q. And you had heard about it when she called you, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You told her that it was published in Al-Hayat newspaper 21 the prior day? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So you read that article in Al Hayat the prior day? 24 A. Yes, it was published in the Al Hayat newspaper, yes. 25 Q. Let me ask you if you're familiar with this statement: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10546 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 "The Islamic Group declares all American interests 2 legitimate targets to its legitimate jihad until the release of 3 all prisoners on top of whom is Abdel Rahman." 4 Are you familiar with that statement issued in 5 February of1997? 6 A. Mr. Morvillo, I can't, just sitting here, tell you I am -- 7 you making some quotations and ask me if I am familiar with 8 this quotation. I can't just sit here and say yes, I am. I am 9 familiar with some language that the Islamic Group was using 10 since 1993, you know, through the years when the Sheikh was in 11 prison, issuing threats. 12 Yes, I am familiar with that, but certain statements 13 or a certain that you're referring to I cannot just sit here 14 and honestly tell you yes, I am familiar with it or I remember 15 that. 16 Q. So what you're saying, Mr. Sattar, is that you're familiar 17 with the fact that the Islamic Group was continually issuing 18 threats against the United States related to Sheikh Abdel 19 Rahman? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. But you can't remember each threat individually? 22 A. No, I cannot remember each threat individually. I even 23 testified to that on my direct, they were issuing threats, most 24 of them empty threats. I am familiar with them issuing 25 threats, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10547 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You believed they were empty threats, right? 2 A. I do believe they were empty, empty threats, yes. 3 Q. Let me ask you about another statement by the Islamic 4 Group. Are you familiar with this statement issued in May of 5 1997 just after the imposition of special administrative 6 measures: 7 "If any harm comes to the Sheikh, Al-Gama'a 8 Al-Islamiyya will target all of those Americans who 9 participated in subjecting his life to danger." 10 Are you familiar with that statement? 11 A. It is another statement that, you know, I cannot say I'm 12 familiar with that particular statement, no. 13 Q. What about this statement contained in the same article: 14 "Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya considers every American 15 official, starting with the American president, to the 16 despicable jailer, partners in endangering the Sheikh's life." 17 You're familiar with that statement? 18 A. I think it was published in American newspapers, I read it 19 in American newspapers. 20 Q. That was published in the Daily News, in fact? 21 A. I believe so. That statement I read it in the newspaper. 22 MR. TIGAR: May we have an instruction, your Honor, as 23 to these alleged historical events. 24 THE COURT: First, I take it that these are being 25 offered solely with respect to the witness' knowledge, intent SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10548 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 and state of mind? 2 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: And solely with respect to Mr. Sattar? 4 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, you 6 should follow that instruction. 7 BY MR. MORVILLO: 8 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, you are also familiar with the fact that 9 the Islamic Group resorted to murder to free Sheikh Abdel 10 Rahman from prison, right? 11 A. Am I familiar with they resorted to murder to free Sheikh 12 Abdel Rahman from prison? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. I really don't -- I am not -- I mean if you are referring 15 to a specific incident, would you please -- 16 Q. I am referring to the Luxor massacre in 1997. 17 A. Yes, I read that in the newspapers. 18 Q. You read that, specifically that Al-Gama'a took credit for 19 the attack at Luxor and stated they did it in an effort to free 20 Sheikh Abdel Rahman from prison, right? 21 A. It was published in the newspaper, too, yes, and it was 22 published that they denied responsibility for it. 23 Q. In fact, you had an article in your apartment, Government 24 Exhibit 2069, that referred to these statements by the Islamic 25 Group in wake of the Islamic Group, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10549 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 A. 2060? 2 Q. 2069? 3 A. There were so many exhibits. 4 Q. Did you recall you possessed an article that claimed the 5 responsibility of the Islamic Group for the Luxor? 6 A. If you say it is in my apartment, I believe it is. I 7 really don't recall. 8 Q. Obtaining the release of Omar Abdel Rahman was not the only 9 goal of the Islamic Group? 10 A. I am sorry. 11 Q. Obtaining the release of Omar Abdel Rahman was not the only 12 goal of the Islamic Group, as you understood their goals in the 13 1990's? 14 A. I don't think the release of Sheikh Abdel Rahman was a goal 15 of the Islamic Group. I think they were hoping that he will be 16 released or the issuance, that they will do such and such if he 17 is not released, but at whole, the Islamic Group, I am not sure 18 if it was one of their goals. Their goals I learned about from 19 what I read in their charter and what I read and I watched on 20 their videos -- 21 Q. But their charter was written back in -- 22 THE COURT: Stop, please! 23 The reporter can only get down one person speaking at 24 a time. I am not sure if the answer was finished or not. If 25 the witness wants to continue, he may. Otherwise, the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10550 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 questioner can pose the next question. 2 THE WITNESS: I am not aware that they added, you 3 know, to their charter or anything a goal to free Sheikh Abdel 4 Rahman. They were asking to free their people or their leaders 5 in prison, yes, but I am not quite sure this was a goal. 6 BY MR. MORVILLO: 7 Q. You're familiar with the fact that the Islamic Group 8 claimed responsibility for the Luxor attack, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In its claim of responsibility quoted to you a moment ago, 11 they called for the release of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 12 A. According to the newspapers, yes. 13 Q. That was your understanding, based on what you read in the 14 newspapers, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the claim also included 17 the following reports of claim: 18 "Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya will continue with its 19 military operation as long as the regime does not meet our 20 demands, the most important, important of which is the 21 application of God Almighty's law and the cutting of relations 22 with the Zionist entity." 23 A. Am I familiar with that? 24 Q. Are you familiar with that? 25 A. I probably read it. I am not -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10551 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And so when it says "demands," your understanding would be 2 that they demand that Islamic law be implemented in Egypt? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that the government of Egypt cut ties with the Zionist 5 entity? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that is Israel, right? 8 A. This is what they are saying, yes. 9 Q. Yes, that is your understanding? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It is also your understanding that is what the goals of the 12 Islamic Group were, right? 13 A. You know, to my understanding, you know, there is a 14 difference between a demand and a goal. I mean I can say that 15 I understand this is their goals. I really don't understand 16 you say this is demands by them reported in the newspapers. 17 I am not here to -- I am just telling you what I 18 understood from what you are reading, and this is just demands 19 by them. 20 Q. You're familiar with the fact that the Islamic Group, in 21 addition to the Luxor attack, carried out other terrorist 22 attacks, right? 23 A. Yes, they did. 24 Q. There was the attack on the Greek tourists in Cairo in 25 1996, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10552 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And that was 18 Greek tourists were killed? 3 A. I believe so, yes. 4 Q. In fact, it is fair to say that you understood that between 5 1990 and 1997, the Islamic Group was responsible for killing 6 more than 100 tourists in Egypt, right? 7 A. I don't know how many. I know they attacked, attacked some 8 tourists, but I am not quite sure of the number. The only 9 number I am sure about, it was Luxor because it was highly 10 publicized. 11 Q. And that number was 58 tourists? 12 A. Was 58 people, yes. 13 Q. There are also some Egyptians that were killed who were 14 guards at the temple, right? 15 A. I believe so, yeah, there were four Egyptians. The number 16 was 62. 17 Q. Over the years based in part because of your relationship 18 with Sheikh Abdel Rahman, you kept up the speed with respect to 19 developments within the Islamic Group, right? 20 A. Would you repeat that again. 21 Q. Sure. Over the years, from the time you met Sheikh Abdel 22 Rahman in 1992 through your arrest, you kept up to speed with 23 developments in the Islamic Group, right? 24 A. Yes, I was more familiar with them than before I met the 25 Sheikh or I started to know a lot about them than before. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10553 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 Q. The basic source for your information was newspaper 2 articles? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And, of course, in 1998 you started talking with the leader 5 of the Islamic Group, Taha and Mustafa Hamza was a source of 6 information for you, right? 7 A. Yes, source of information to the current events in -- 8 Q. As opposed to -- 9 A. But nothing, you know -- I don't remember remember talking 10 about anything in the past or with them, you know, or giving me 11 details of anything. It was just to certain things, you know, 12 that we were talking about which has to do with the peace 13 initiative and the things that we all heard in the transcript, 14 wherever in the transcripts. 15 Q. You knew that the United States had designated the Islamic 16 Group as a foreign terrorist organization starting in 1997, 17 right? 18 A. I am not quite sure of the year, but I know they were on 19 the State Department list, yes. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, is this a convenient time 21 to break? 22 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll break 23 for the day. Tomorrow we will only sit until 3:15, so in terms 24 of your own schedule, we'll only sit until 3:15 tomorrow, and I 25 expect to be able to provide you with further information on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10554 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 scheduling as the week proceeds. 2 Please, ladies and gentlemen, please remember to 3 follow my continuing instructions with great care. Please 4 don't talk about this case at all among yourselves, with anyone 5 when you go home tonight. Please don't look at or listen to 6 anything to do with the case. If you should see or hear 7 something inadvertently, please simply turn away, don't look at 8 or listen to anything to do with the case. 9 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have 10 heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law and 11 you have gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 12 Have a very good evening, and I look forward to seeing you 13 tomorrow morning at 9:30. All rise. 14 (Jury excused) 15 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar may step down. Let me talk to 16 the lawyers. 17 (Continued on next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10555 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 (At the sidebar) 2 THE COURT: I just wanted to get a an idea of what 3 you're telling me in terms of the schedule. 4 MR. RUHNKE: I think what we're saying is that there 5 is no realistic way that summations can take place before we 6 have to break for the holidays, and the defense preference is 7 to break whenever it is we finish the evidence, whether it is 8 Thursday or Monday, and that our preference is to wait until 9 January 3rd, the first Monday of the New Year, so that 10 summations don't get broken up by the long weekend and so we 11 don't have the circumstance that the government delivers 12 basically its summation, the jury disappears for three days 13 before we hear anything from the defense. 14 We would like it all to be one right after the other 15 with no significant breaks. If there has to be a weekend break 16 that comes along during the normal process, that is fine, but 17 we think the worst of all possible words from our perspective 18 is the government sums, the jury goes off for three days and 19 hears from the defense for the first time. 20 MS. BAKER: To go back to what I said earlier, I don't 21 know if I said this explicitly or even I didn't, the court 22 might have understand this, but just to make it explicit for 23 the record, the 29th and 30th are a Wednesday and Thursday. 24 THE COURT: That is what I was going over. 25 MS. BAKER: If the government were to give its SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10556 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 summation on the 29th and 30th, what would then follow is just 2 the normal three-day weekend before the defense would come back 3 and do its summations. As I said earlier, there isn't going to 4 be a way to avoid having a three-day weekend at some point 5 during the summations, which is why the government requests to 6 just go ahead and start. 7 THE COURT: I am also trying to just understand when 8 Mr. Sattar's case is finished and the government's rebuttal 9 case would finish. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Speaking for the government's rebuttal 11 case, it is probably about an hour. So it should be very 12 quick, whenever it happens. 13 With respect to the cross-examination, it is going a 14 lot slower than I thought it would. I am going to certainly go 15 back and reevaluate what I have left to cover, but I certainly 16 don't think we'll be able to finish tomorrow. 17 MR. FALLICK: I certainly do have some redirect, your 18 Honor. 19 THE COURT: Sure, that is fine. 20 MS. BAKER: Just to follow up on what Mr. Morvillo 21 said about the government's rebuttal case, obviously we won't 22 know for sure until Mr. Sattar's case is finished, but 23 currently the government's expectation is that its rebuttal 24 case will consist of the introduction of a couple of 25 documentary exhibits and the introduction of at least one or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10557 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 maybe two recorded telephone calls. The calls are not lengthy. 2 We had asked the defense whether they would stipulate to the 3 agent's testimony that would make the calls admissible, as was 4 done during the defendants' cases. 5 Ms. Stewart's lawyers advise that they will not 6 stipulate, so we don't know whether that means that they would 7 expect to have some cross-examination of the agent who we will 8 put on to put the report into evidence. If so, obviously we're 9 not able to estimate the length of such cross-examination. 10 The only other thing I wanted to add is I don't recall 11 what had been said previously about the schedule for the 30th, 12 that if there was a full court day on the 30th, we do believe 13 it is possible that Mr. Dember could finish his summation early 14 enough in the day that Mr. Yousry's counsel could give his 15 summation also on the 30th if it is a full court day. 16 THE COURT: Well, it sounds as though it is quite 17 likely that the evidence will be concluded this week and that 18 we may have time next week, but I still think I want to do a 19 charge conference tomorrow. I should say that the government's 20 and Ms. Stewart's comments on the charge went beyond what I 21 understood Mr. -- went beyond what I expected from what I was 22 told, and that even puts aside the argument on the special 23 verdict. I realize if the schedule you are giving me has 24 several open days, and we might as well take advantage of time 25 that is presented to us. So we'll start tomorrow at 3:15. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10558 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 No one thinks it is a good idea to start summations 2 next week and finish up the 29th and 30th? 3 MR. PAUL: No, your Honor. 4 MR. BARKOW: The only way we thought was possible, and 5 even then it is tight, if we start Wednesday morning, this 6 Wednesday morning with summations. 7 MR. PAUL: We were hopeful at one point that that 8 would happen, but obviously that is not what -- 9 THE COURT: What is the estimate with respect to all 10 the summations? 11 MS. BAKER: That question has a two-part answer. 12 I think based on everybody's best estimates of how 13 long they would speak, it is conceivable that it could add up 14 to five trial days' worth of time. However, some counsel, it 15 is my understanding, feel strongly that they don't want their 16 summation interrupted and they want to give it all in one day. 17 Therefore, when that is factored in, our belief is that it 18 requires six trial days to cover what might otherwise be five 19 trial days' worth of content. 20 THE COURT: You know, I'll listen to you further on 21 this. I certainly don't want to decide it now, but at least it 22 is not clear to me that not going forward on the 29th and 30th 23 is a good idea. It loses two days. The jurors had told us 24 that they were available the 29th and the 30th, so if I give 25 them the schedule, they may reconsider that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10559 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 The defendants aren't prejudiced from having the 2 government have its summations further away from my charge and 3 the jury deliberations when you've got to break up the 4 summations in any event. So taking off the 29th and 30th, I 5 mean while a nice holiday idea, may not in terms of schedule 6 and in terms of what the jurors have told us be in everyone's 7 interest. So I'll think about it, particularly when that is a 8 regular break for us in terms of time in the end of that week. 9 Also if we were going to do that, I would ask the 10 jurors before the end of the week to confirm for me that they 11 were available on the 29th and the 30th, and I could explicitly 12 set out for them where we were in terms of completing the 13 evidence, and as I've done before, the next stage is summations 14 and the charge, and rather than to begin summations before the 15 holidays and take a big break without beginning the summations 16 on the 29th and the 30th, confirm for us that you're available 17 for us on those days. 18 MR. TIGAR: There will also be Rule 29 arguments, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: Oh, we have a lot of time. There is the 21 week of the 20th. 22 MR. TIGAR: It might shorten the summations. 23 MR. RUHNKE: Would your Honor consider asking the 24 jurors what their preferences are? 25 THE COURT: No, I don't want to make it a popularity SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10560 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 vote. If the jurors came up with problems on the 29th or the 2 30th, I would be happy to embrace them, but -- 3 MR. RUHNKE: I suppose us taking a vote is out of the 4 question? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Thank your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. All right. See you tomorrow at 8 9:00 o'clock. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I have one unrelated open 10 matter. I don't know if we can predict, as we stand here right 11 now, when the government's rebuttal case will be, perhaps late 12 in the day on Wednesday or perhaps Thursday. However, both 13 Mr. Yousry and Ms. Stewart had made filings, objecting to 14 certain evidence that the government seeks to offer in 15 rebuttal. The government would prefer just to respond orally 16 at some point. 17 THE COURT: You can do that now. I can do that now. 18 We can do it in open court. Do it now. 19 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, may my client be excused for 20 that purpose? I don't think it relates to him on the rebuttal 21 issue and he would like to get back? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. PAUL: Never mind. He has a rebound. 24 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fletcher points out that 25 the sidebars are open on the laptops, and that's fine. I mean SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10561 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 all of those with access to the computers are welcome to have 2 access to the sidebars, and I've always indicated that just 3 because I say "lawyers," any of the clients are welcome to be 4 present at the sidebars or at any conferences I have. They're 5 certainly welcome to follow along on the computers, okay? 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10562 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 (In open court) 2 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I be excused? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, likewise, may I be excused? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 All right, Ms. Baker. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, by letter, dated December 8 11th, 2004, Mr. Yousry has objected, and by letter, dated 9 December 12th, 2004, Ms. Stewart has objected to certain 10 evidence that the government proposes to offer in its rebuttal 11 case. 12 Both defendants object to a recorded call. The 13 recording would be Government Exhibit 1275, and the transcript 14 of it, which would be offered only as an aid to the jury, 15 because it is an English language conversation, but the 16 transcript is Government Exhibit 1275 T, and we had handed up a 17 corrected version of that for your Honor earlier today. 18 In addition, Ms. Stewart objects to Government Exhibit 19 554 X, so let me address 1275 first and then I'll turn back 20 very briefly to 554 X. 21 As I understand the defendants' objections to 1275, 22 the objections are some combination of it's not proper rebuttal 23 or it's time consuming and cumulative and so on, essentially a 24 Rule 403-type objection, and perhaps this is part of the not 25 proper rebuttal argument, that they don't understand the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10563 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 purpose for which it is being offered. 2 1275 is being offered for the purpose of rebutting the 3 evidence presented during the defense cases, that the 4 defendants generally, and Ms. Stewart particularly, relied upon 5 the conduct and/or opinions of Ramsey Clark in deciding how to 6 behave in light of the special administrative measures. 7 So the particularly relevant portion of Government 8 Exhibit 1275 involves Mr. Yousry -- sorry. Let me interrupt 9 myself to say -- this conversation was recorded on August 28th 10 of 2000, and it is between Mr. Yousry and Ms. Stewart, and on 11 Page 3 of the transcript, Mr. Yousry is talking, and he 12 suggests to Ms. Stewart that they should essentially consult 13 with Ramsey Clark or hear what Ramsey Clark thinks about the 14 situation, the situation at that time including the fact that 15 Pat Fitzgerald has sent his letter, saying that he thinks 16 essentially that the SAMS have been violated. 17 At lines 18 to 19 on Page 3 of the transcript, 18 Government Exhibit 1275 T, Ms. Stewart says, "Ramsey I'm not 19 interested in at all, I don't care what Ramsey has to say." 20 So it is proper rebuttal because it deals specifically 21 with the contention presented during the defense cases that the 22 defendants were being influenced by the views of Ramsey Clark 23 in their conduct, and so for that reason it is appropriate 24 rebuttal, it is relevant, and obviously it is not time 25 consuming, it is a very short call, perhaps about 10 minutes or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10564 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 so that the transcript, as your Honor can see, is 13 pages, and 2 that is the transcript of the entire call. 3 It is possible from the government's perspective 4 probably that the call could be excerpted to make it even 5 shorter, although obviously we would have to see whether the 6 defendants would have a Rule 106 objection to that. 7 For all of those reasons, the government submits that 8 the court should reject the defendants' arguments and allow the 9 government to present 1275 during its rebuttal case. 10 As to Ms. Stewart's objection to Government Exhibit 11 554 X -- 12 THE COURT: Before you leave that, I should say I 13 agree, I am inclined to allow the call. I'll listen to the 14 defendants, and I am also inclined to agree with Ms. Stewart's 15 request for a redaction on Page 11 line 3 to Page 12 line 15. 16 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we do not object to that. I 17 had forgotten Ms. Stewart had made that request. We do not 18 object. 19 The other point I would make in connection with this 20 call, I believe Ms. Stewart also requested, allegedly under the 21 rule of completeness, that a portion of a prison call be 22 presented at the same time, and she attached that prison call 23 to her letter. The government objects to that and does not 24 believe that this is an appropriate argument under the rule of 25 completeness. There is nothing misleading about the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10565 4CDJSAT4 Sattar - cross 1 government's use of this call 1257 by itself. There is nothing 2 in the prison call that indicates that Government Exhibit 1275 3 is being used out of context. 4 The prison call itself is already in evidence and is 5 available to counsel for use during their arguments if they 6 believe it has some relevance. 7 THE COURT: Again, I have read the correspondence and 8 I tend to agree with that, that it is not necessary for the 9 purposes of completeness, and that since it is already in 10 evidence, to the extent that the government relied upon the 11 transcript 1275, the defendants can rely and read anything from 12 the transcript otherwise in evidence in the course of 13 summations. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10566 4CD5SAT5 1 MS. BAKER: And, your Honor, as to Ms. Stewart's 2 objection to Government Exhibit 554X -- 3 THE COURT: By the way, I will listen to the 4 defendants who wish to tell me anything else but I agree with 5 Ms. Stewart's request for redaction which the government 6 accepts and the government offers to further redact the call if 7 the defendants wish. I haven't gone over the call to see if 8 there is anything else that should be redacted other than the 9 specific redaction that was asked for. 10 All right? 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, as to Government Exhibit 554X, 12 that is the excerpted videotape of the interview of Ms. Stewart 13 by Greta Van Susteren, and the Court had already ruled there 14 was litigation back and forth about this, about the extent to 15 which it should be redacted and which parts should be in or 16 out. 17 The Court already ruled that what the government was, 18 or that this version is the appropriate version. And it's our 19 understanding that the Court had already ruled that it could be 20 played by the government in its rebuttal case and nothing has 21 happened to change that fact. 22 So we simply ask the Court to adhere to its prior 23 ruling. 24 THE COURT: Again, I will listen to the defendants, 25 but as I read the correspondence, the argument is that playing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10567 4CD5SAT5 1 the tape is, at this point, cumulative and time consuming. 2 The Court ruled on this initially. The parties could 3 reasonably have relied on that. The government was allowed to 4 use part of the call and then I, in response to the defendants' 5 suggestion, I allowed much of the rest of the interview in and, 6 for purposes of completeness and fairness, the defendant says 7 that it's been redacted, as I had indicated, and it's not so 8 long as to be time-consuming and it's different from what's 9 been used so far because what's been used so far is only 10 reading from the transcript and so, it's not so time-consuming 11 that I should reconsider the admissibility -- 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, in fact -- 13 THE COURT: -- on both sides. 14 MS. BAKER: In fact, we believe it is probably only 15 five or so minutes long in its redacted form. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, in terms of Government 17 Exhibit 1275 and 1275T, I don't understand the government's 18 position to be that this rebuts anything in Mr. Yousry's 19 defense. 20 What the government just said on the record is that 21 they can use it in rebuttal to Mr. Yousry's defense. First of 22 all it is not borne out by this transcript. 23 Mr. Yousry testified, in sum and substance, that he 24 relied upon the advice of the lawyers as to what was 25 permissible under the SAMs or not, and permissible under the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10568 4CD5SAT5 1 SAMs of the lawyers. 2 To the extent that Ms. Baker wants to single out 3 whether people rely upon Ramsey Clark's advice, what Mr. Yousry 4 says on the tape is he raises the subject of whether "did 5 Ramsey receive the same letter or something." 6 And then 10 lines later says, "I think you should keep 7 it between you and Ramsey for now until we decide." 8 At which point Ms. Stewart says: No, she doesn't want 9 to do that. 10 I can't see how that's rebuttal as to Mr. Yousry's 11 testimony at all. The difficulty with it coming in as 12 rebuttal, it assumes a significance that probably it should not 13 assume in the jury's minds. 14 So, I do not think certainly it's rebuttal as to 15 Mr. Yousry as to anything put forward in his defense. 16 So, on his behalf I object to it being offered against 17 any more rebuttal. 18 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, first, with respect to 554X, 19 we withdraw our objection. We would like to have it played. 20 THE COURT: Most of it was the portions that I allowed 21 in in fairness for the defense requests. 22 MR. TIGAR: I'm not going to describe all the really 23 good parts that I think are in there because they'll now 24 withdraw the exhibit and then where will I be? But we withdraw 25 our objection to it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10569 4CD5SAT5 1 I do have a nightmare sometimes about being tried for 2 a felony on Fox TV but that's -- we agree. 3 With respect to 1275, I said in opening statement that 4 one of the characteristics of Ms. Stewart, like that of all 5 good lawyers, is the exercise of independent judgment. And 6 while lawyers listen to other lawyers and there is evidence 7 about that, it has never been a theme or theory of the Stewart 8 defense that, well, if Ramsey Clark is doing it I will go ahead 9 and do the same thing thoughtlessly without thinking. 10 This conversation says that, the no, no, no says 11 listen I, I have independent judgment exercised here. There 12 are statements in here that I'm asked to affirm as reflecting 13 the conduct of my client. She says that with some care 14 pre-figuring the kinds of objections that were later made to 15 Mr. Fitzgerald. 16 So, for that reason, with respect to Ms. Stewart, we 17 do not regard it as rebutting any suggestion that we have made. 18 I understand that Court has ruled and if it comes in, 19 then we'll obviously argue about that in summation as to what, 20 if anything, it means. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 Ms. Baker? 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the points raised by both 24 defense counsel, I think, are points for them to argue in 25 summation. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10570 4CD5SAT5 1 Mr. Yousry says what he says in the conversation, 2 Ms. Stewart responds, and Mr. Yousry essentially agrees with 3 her. And if counsel wants to argue to the jury how they should 4 or should not construe that, it doesn't change the fact that 5 it's appropriate rebuttal to testimony that was given 6 repeatedly in both defense cases. 7 THE COURT: All right. It is fair. It is fair 8 rebuttal and -- it is fair rebuttal, it's relevant, and it is 9 difficult to see a reasonable 403 objection. It is hardly 10 time-consuming, confusing. 11 The defendants say, essentially, that it's not 12 inconsistent with things that the defendants have said and 13 positions that they've taken. The government says it puts a 14 somewhat different task on it. Both, all sides are welcome to 15 argue that to the jury. 16 All right. Anything else? Okay. See you all at 9:00 17 tomorrow. 18 (Adjourned to 9:00 a.m., Tuesday, December 14th, 2004) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10571 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR 4 Cross By Mr. Morvillo: . . . . . . . . . . . 10375 5 Cross By Mr. Morvillo: . . . . . . . . . . . 10496 6 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 7 Exhibit No. Received 8 800 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10382 9 803 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10450 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300