10572 4CE5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 14, 2004 8 9:34 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10573 4CE5SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, all. Please, be seated. 3 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 4 Mr. Morvillo? By the way, the jury has asked that we 5 break promptly when they get their lunch today, so we will do 6 that. 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10574 4CE5SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Good morning, 3 ladies and gentlemen. 4 THE JURY: Good morning. 5 THE COURT: Good to see you all, as always. 6 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 7 Mr. Fletcher? 8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 9 you are still under oath. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, resumed. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may examine. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 14 CROSS EXAMINATION (continued) 15 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, you knew in October of 1997 that the Islamic 17 Group was a designated terrorist organization by the United 18 States Department of Treasury, right? 19 A. In October '97? 20 Q. At least by October of '97? 21 A. I know they were -- yes, I know the Islamic Group was 22 designated but I don't know exactly when. 23 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 24 Government Exhibit 2032, in evidence? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10575 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 MR. MORVILLO: This document is only against 2 Mr. Sattar and solely for his knowledge, intent and state of 3 mind. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you see this document? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And this was found in the search of your apartment, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You possessed this document? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know where you got it from? 12 A. I'm not -- I'm not quite sure where I got it from. It, 13 either of -- I'm not sure. 14 Q. And the, it is a list of terrorist organizations that were 15 designated by the United States Department of Treasury, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And this list is as of October 8th of 1997? 18 A. Yeah. I see the date there, yes. 19 Q. And do you see Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya on there? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that's right here? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you scroll down to the bottom of the 24 page, please? 25 Do you see the date down there, Mr. Sattar, October SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10576 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 8th of 1997? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And there is a time, 15:23:38? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you download this from the internet? 6 A. Could be, yes. I'm not quite sure. 7 Q. Could you go to the second page of the exhibit? And go 8 down to the Legal Consequences. 9 Do you see, Mr. Sattar, in this exhibit, that it talks 10 about the legal consequences of providing funds or other forms 11 of support to terrorist organizations? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you were aware of that in 1997, right? 14 A. I was aware of you are not supposed to provide support to a 15 terrorist organization in 1997? 16 Q. Right. 17 A. I know about the law, you know, I mean I didn't know about 18 the fine points of the law but I know about there was a law, 19 yes. 20 Q. You can take that down, Ms. Griffith. 21 Mr. Sattar, since your arrest in April of 2002, you 22 have come to learn that the FBI recorded a lot of your 23 telephone calls? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And, in fact, following your arrest in April of 2002, the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10577 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 government provided you and your lawyers with discovery in this 2 case, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you have had access to all of those recordings between 5 April 2002 and now, right? 6 A. I can't say I have access myself to everything. 7 Q. Well, you -- the total number of recordings that were 8 introduced into evidence in this case is a very small fraction 9 of the total number of recordings that were intercepted over 10 your telephone, right? 11 A. According to what the government says, yes, about 85,000, 12 88,000 calls, and that the government introduced about 250 or 13 230 calls; yes. 14 Q. And with respect to the conversations that were introduced 15 into evidence, you certainly had access to those recordings, 16 right? 17 A. Some of it, yes. And some of it, no. Some of it I was 18 sitting here in court listening to some of them, you know, I 19 was provided by computer here in court to listen to some of 20 them. 21 Q. And you had access to the transcripts of those calls, 22 right? 23 A. I had access, yes, to some transcripts, yes. 24 Q. And in fact, in discovery, the government provided you with 25 about 5,000 summaries of telephone calls over your telephone, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10578 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 right? 2 A. I'm sorry? 3 Q. The government provided you with summaries of about 5,000 4 calls that were intercepted over your telephone, right? 5 A. Yes, the government provided me with some summaries. I 6 don't know how many exactly. 7 Q. It was thousands of pagess of summaries, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And your lawyers had access to all this information too, 10 right? 11 A. I believe they do, they did have access; yes. 12 Q. And, based on your review of the materials, you learned 13 that the FBI was monitoring your telephone at different times, 14 right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And they were monitoring your phone from March 1995 to 17 November of '95, right? 18 A. To November '90 -- 19 Q. '95. 20 A. No, from March '95 to November '96, I believe. 21 Q. It was actually from March '95 to November '95, right; and 22 then March '96 to November '96. There was a gap between 23 November '95 and March of '96, right? 24 A. Right. I mean, you know better than me. 25 Q. And then there was, they monitored from March '96 to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10579 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 November '96, right? 2 A. From March '96 to November '96? 3 Q. Yes. 4 And then there was a break in monitoring again and it 5 didn't resume until November of '98, right? 6 A. I know there was a gap, you know, from '96 to '98. I know 7 it was a big gap in there. 8 Q. And those thousands of pages of summaries of the calls, you 9 reviewed those calls, right, those summaries? 10 A. I had access to some summaries, yes, and I had -- and I 11 reviewed some of the them, the summaries, yes. 12 Q. And you hired translators to prepare summaries and 13 transcripts of telephone calls, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that the 16 recordings made by the FBI of your telephone calls that were 17 introduced into evidence in this case are true and accurate 18 recordings of those calls? 19 A. I cannot say it is true and accurate recording of those 20 calls. You know, I mean, to my understanding. 21 Q. You cannot say that? 22 A. No, I cannot. 23 Q. Can you point to one telephone call that that was not true 24 or accurate, Mr. Sattar? 25 A. I'm not saying -- it is in my understanding I do not, I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10580 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 consider when I am having a conversation and it is cut in the 2 middle, I'm listening to a conversation and it's cut in the 3 middle and I know this conversation continued, I -- I don't 4 think this is true and accurate conversation. 5 Q. But where there was recordings made, those recordings were 6 true and accurate, right? 7 A. That recording, those portions, yes. Yes. 8 Q. But what wasn't recorded is not true and accurate, right? 9 A. What was not recorded? 10 Q. What was not recorded. 11 A. It's not recorded, I don't know what happened to it. 12 Q. But, the recordings that are in evidence that were actually 13 recorded are true and accurate recordings of your 14 conversations, right? 15 A. That recording are, yes. What I said and what other people 16 said, it's there. But the rest of the conversations, I really 17 don't know what happened to it. 18 Q. Now, it's fair to say, Mr. Sattar, that the vast, vast 19 majority of telephone calls introduced into evidence in this 20 case were from the post-November 1998 period, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And as we discussed yesterday, there is only one telephone 23 call from pre-November '98 that was in evidence and that's 24 Government Exhibit 1001X, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10581 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Now, Government Exhibit 1002X is the first call in evidence 2 between yourself and Rifa'i Taha, right? 3 A. 1002X? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. It -- the first call in evidence? 6 Q. In evidence. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. But it was not the first time that you spoke to Mr. Taha, 9 right? 10 A. No, it was not the first time. It was around that time, 11 the first time I spoke to him. 12 Q. And we spoke about this telephone call yesterday, right? 13 This is the one that establishes that Mr. Taha was in 14 Afghanistan? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, just so we have the time frame right here, Government 17 Exhibit 1002X is in December of 1998? 18 A. I think it is, yes. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 20 the first page of Government Exhibit 1002X? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. This is the first page of that transcript, Mr. Sattar, 23 right? It's December 12th of 1998? 24 A. Yes, I see that. 25 Q. And you testified that Yassir Al-Sirri introduced you to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10582 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Rifa'i Taha, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. But, of course, prior to that you had known who Rifa'i Taha 4 was just from your knowledge of the Islamic Group, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you were aware of the fact that Rifa'i Taha was a 7 leader of the Islamic Group? 8 A. I was aware of the fact that he was one of the leaders, one 9 of the founders of the Islamic Group. At the time I was not 10 sure that he was the leader of the Islamic Group. I know there 11 was some conflicts going between leaders in the Islamic Group 12 and, you know, it was published all over the newspaper that, 13 you know, here is even, you know, there was some published 14 reports saying that he resigned and there is other people who 15 are in charge of the Islamic Group. 16 Q. Right. And that was in the wake of the Luxor massacre, 17 right? 18 A. That was after Luxor, yes. 19 Q. And, incidentally, are you aware of the fact that it was 20 reported that Taha and Hamza were directly related to the 21 planning of the Luxor attack, right? 22 A. I'm sorry? 23 Q. You are aware of the fact that it was reported that Taha 24 and Hamza were directly connected to the planning of the Luxor 25 attack, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10583 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. No, I was not aware of that, that they were directly 2 connected. 3 I was aware that, you know, you know, some faction of 4 the Islamic Group claimed responsibility. Other faction, you 5 know, they said they denied responsibility. I'm not quite sure 6 about the names who exactly was, you know, claiming 7 responsibility and who is not. 8 In some reports -- you know, I mean, I'm telling you 9 from newspaper reports that it was in '97. I know there was 10 some reports saying, you know, people claimed responsibility, 11 others denied responsibility. 12 Maybe Rifa'i Taha was one of the people who claimed 13 responsibility. I'm not quite sure. 14 Q. Well, in fact, he mentioned it in telephone calls that were 15 introduced into evidence in this case that the Islamic Group 16 was responsible for the Luxor attack, right? 17 A. He mentioned? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. That the Islamic Group was responsible for -- it could be 20 mentioned, yes. I'm not -- I don't know which phone call. 21 Q. Are you familiar with the statement by Muntasir Al-Zayat 22 made in November of 1997 that Hamza and Taha would be entirely 23 responsible for the planning of the Luxor attack? 24 A. I can't say that I am familiar with it. 25 Q. There were many articles written about the Luxor attack, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10584 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you recall whether any of those articles that you 4 read -- that you possessed or that you read, mentioned that 5 Taha was involved in the planning of the Luxor attack? 6 A. I -- I -- I don't remember anything, anything that I 7 possessed saying, you know, that -- I really don't remember. 8 Mr. Morvillo, you know, we're talking about newspapers 9 articles in 1997. You know, I mean, it was a very confusing 10 time and I really don't remember exactly. 11 I know there was two factions, one is denying 12 responsibility, one is claiming responsibilities. But who is 13 precisely denying and who is precisely claiming, I don't know. 14 The only thing that I know for a fact that I urged 15 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman to issue a condemnation. This is only 16 for that attack. 17 Q. Well, it is also true that when he was originally informed 18 of the Luxor attack he had no comment, right? 19 A. Yes, he did have no comment. 20 Q. And you said that in the newspapers, right? 21 A. Yes. And I -- and after that I was the one who urged him 22 to come and condemn this act. 23 Q. Well, the SAMs were imposed at the time, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And so you didn't directly urge him to do anything, did SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10585 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 you? 2 A. No, I did not directly urge him to do it, I didn't -- 3 Q. But you commune -- 4 THE COURT: Stop, stop, stop. Let the witness finish 5 answering -- 6 THE WITNESS: I didn't -- 7 THE COURT: Hold on. 8 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Let the witness finish answering the 10 question. Question, answer. The reporter can only get down 11 one person speaking at a time. 12 THE WITNESS: Mr. Morvillo, I did not directly urge 13 him, I urged him through Mr. Clark. 14 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 15 Q. But you communicated to him your opinions, right? 16 A. Through Mr. Clark, yes. 17 Q. And he responded? 18 A. And he condemned the attack. 19 Q. Now, you knew when you first spoke to Mr. Taha that he was 20 a fugitive from Egypt, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you knew that, as you said, he was one of the leaders, 23 if not the leader of the Islamic Group, right? 24 A. Yes, I knew he was one of the leaders, yes. 25 Q. And you also knew that the Islamic Group was a terrorist SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10586 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 organization, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you also knew that the Islamic Group carried out the 4 Luxor attack, right? 5 A. I knew, yes. According to the newspapers I knew, yes. 6 Q. Now -- 7 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 8 Exhibit 1002X again? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. This is a call that you set up between Mr. Taha and 11 Mr. Al-Zayat, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And, again, Rifa'i Taha was calling you from Afghanistan 14 and you connected Muntasir Al-Zayat in Egypt? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you testified on direct that you never called, 17 directly, Afghanistan, right? 18 A. I don't believe I ever called, directly, Afghanistan. 19 Q. Right. 20 The IG leaders in Afghanistan always called you? 21 A. They always called me. I didn't even have phone numbers 22 for them, I mean for Rifa'i Taha or Mustafa Hamza. 23 Q. Right. 24 And the reason why you didn't have telephone numbers 25 for Rifa'i Taha and Mustafa Hamza was because they didn't want SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10587 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 their telephone numbers to be able to be traced, right? 2 A. They -- probably, yes. They were just, you know, certain 3 things they were secretive. They didn't want it to be known to 4 anybody, to even me. 5 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 20 of this exhibit? 6 Do you recall, Mr. Sattar, that during this 7 conversation, Rifa'i Taha directed Muntasir Al-Zayat's 8 attention to an interview that was published with him in 9 Al-Quds newspaper on August 15th of 1998? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And, you read that interview with Rifa'i Taha that was 12 published in Al-Quds too, right? 13 A. I might, yes. 14 Q. Well, in fact, you participated in this call and talked 15 about this interview, didn't you? Down at the bottom you 16 said -- Mr. Al-Zayat said at line 13: Okay, I'll try to get it 17 from the Cairo office or retrieve it from the -- 18 And you said: From the internet. 19 And Mr. Rifa'i Taha then said: The issue dated the 20 15th and 16th. 21 That's August 15th and 16th of 1998, right? 22 A. Yes. I was just informing Mr. Al-Zayat here that he could 23 get it from the internet. 24 Q. Right. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10588 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Mrs. Griffith, can you scroll down, please? Keep going. 2 Then Muntasir Al-Zayat says: Was it published in two 3 issues? 4 And Rifa'i Taha says: No, no. 5 And you simultaneously: It's one issue. 6 A. I'm also informing Mr. Zayat here that Al-Quds Al-Arabi, 7 the newspaper issued one issue on Saturday and Sunday. 8 You know, if you go on the internet and you check 9 Al-Quds Al-Arabi and you will see, they don't come out on 10 Sunday so it's only one issue for the weekend for Saturday and 11 Sunday. This is what I was basically saying here. 12 Q. But you were familiar with Rifa'i Taha's interview, right? 13 A. Probably. 14 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you could go down on the page a little 15 bit. 16 At lines 5 and 6 Rifa'i Taha told Al-Zayat that he 17 wanted -- I will read it to you: Eh, eh, I want you to read 18 this interview. I also want the brothers inside to get it 19 alongside with or without the book. 20 So he was directing the imprisoned leaders of the 21 Islamic Group to read this, this interview that he had 22 conducted, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So when he says the brothers inside, he is talking about 25 the brothers in prison? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10589 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. I think, yes, he is talking about the people in prison. Or 2 inside Egypt in general, I'm not -- 3 Q. And that interview that was published in Al-Quds in August 4 of 1998 is in evidence here, right? 5 A. Yes, I seen it, yes, in evidence here. 6 Q. And that's Government Exhibit 508? 7 Your Honor, may I display Government Exhibit 508 to 8 the jury, which is admitted only against Mr. Sattar? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. MORVILLO: May I use the Elmo? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. It's hard to read, Mr. Sattar, but can you make out this 13 article? 14 A. Yes, make it out, but this was found in my house? 15 Q. This is -- did you possess it? 16 A. I don't know. Or just, you know, you bring it over the 17 internet or -- I'm not quite sure what's -- 18 Q. This is a photograph of Rifa'i Taha, as far as you know, 19 right? 20 A. I'm sorry? 21 Q. This is a photograph of Rifa'i Taha, as far as you know? 22 A. Yes, in the newspaper. Yes. 23 Q. You have never met? 24 A. I have never met him. I have never seen him in person. 25 Q. And this interview is the interview in which Rifa'i Taha SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10590 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 stated that he signed Osama Bin Laden's February '98 fatwah 2 calling for the murder of Americans, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. MORVILLO: May I display Government Exhibit 508 5 again, your Honor? 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 Q. Right here at the bottom with number 2, that's actually a 8 copy of the fatwah, right? 9 A. According to the newspaper, yes, it says this is the whole 10 fatwah, yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 12 Exhibit 508-T2, in evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 508-T2 is a translation 15 of the fatwah? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And at the top where it says "the ruling" I will just read 18 it to you. 19 The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies, 20 civilians and military, is an individual duty of every Moslem 21 who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, 22 in order to liberate the Al-Aqsa mosque and the holy mosque, 23 [Mecca], from their grip, and in order for the armies to move 24 out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten 25 any Moslem. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10591 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 You knew at the time that you first started talking to 2 Rifa'i Taha that he had signed this fatwah, right? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. And going down here where it says: We, God willing, call 5 on every Moslem who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded 6 to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder 7 their money wherever and whenever they find it. 8 You also knew that that was contained in the fatwah 9 that Mr. Rifa'i Taha had signed, right? 10 A. Yes. And I know this is also included me, my wife, my kids 11 and everybody that I love. 12 Q. Right. 13 And so, the person that you were connecting to other 14 IG leaders was a person who had stated publicly that he wanted 15 you and your entire family to be murdered, right? 16 A. Yes, I -- I stated -- I connected him and I, as what I 17 said, my dealing with him was pertained to Egypt, the Sheikh, 18 and the Sheikh. And anything else that he is saying that he 19 is -- it is just his words, Mr. Morvillo. 20 Q. Yes, but those words led to the embassy bombings in 1998, 21 didn't they? 22 A. I didn't don't know that. I don't know that. 23 MR. TIGAR: I would like to be heard at the break, 24 your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10592 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You knew that the embassies were bombed in August of 1998, 2 right? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. And you understand that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for 5 those bombings, right, his organization, Al-Qaeda? 6 A. I know, yes, he was -- his organization was charged, yes. 7 Q. And, in fact, you were so interested in that indictment 8 that you asked Lynne Stewart to get it for you, right? 9 A. I was interested in that indictment -- 10 Q. And in fact -- 11 A. -- for one thing. My interest in that indictment was 12 pertained to somebody who was named in this indictment who was 13 dead already and he was charged in Egypt and tried. The 14 Egyptian government knew that he was dead. They even charge 15 him, as dead as he is, tried him and issued a sentence, you 16 know, of death, in absentia, against him, so -- 17 Q. Mr. Sattar, I ask you to listen to my question. 18 THE COURT: Stop, stop. Don't interrupt an answer. 19 Question, answer. Not two people speaking at the same time. 20 I'm not sure if the answer was finished. 21 THE WITNESS: I was just explaining why I was 22 interested in this indictment. I was just interested for this 23 indictment because of that person just to expose the Egyptian 24 government and, you know, to show what the other one, I send it 25 to Yassir Al-Sirri and to be published and to show what the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10593 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Egyptian government was doing. 2 Q. Right. 3 A. This was my only interest in this indictment, Mr. Morvillo. 4 Q. You translated the indictment from English into Arabic, 5 right? 6 A. I did because Mr. Al-Sirri did not speak English and I, you 7 know -- and it was going to be published on an Arabic website. 8 Q. And, incidentally, it wasn't the Egyptians who indicted Bin 9 Laden, it was the United States, right? 10 A. I'm not talking about in the indictment of Bin Laden, I'm 11 talking about the man who was mentioned in this indictment and 12 his name was El-Benshiry. 13 This is the man that whose name was in that indictment 14 and in the indictment said that he was dead already. He 15 drowned in Lake Victoria. I was interested in this indictment 16 because of that, Mr. Morvillo. 17 Q. Incidentally, when you testified earlier that you began 18 speaking with Rifa'i Taha in 1998, was that before or after the 19 embassy bombings? Do you recall? 20 A. If the embassy bombing was in August '98 I believe it was 21 after the embassy bombing. I'm not -- I told you it was in 22 late '98, so. 23 Q. So it was sometime after, you think, the embassy bombings, 24 right? 25 A. Yes. Probably, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10594 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 2 Government Exhibit 1002X, in evidence, again? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 17? 5 During this call, Mr. Sattar, Muntasir Al-zayat and 6 Rifa'i Taha were talking about disputes within the group, 7 right? 8 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question again? 9 Q. Rifa'i Taha and Muntasir Al-Zayat were speaking about 10 disputes within the group, right? 11 A. I believe so, yes. 12 Q. And if you look at line 15 where I have indicated with a 13 dot and an arrow, Rifa'i Taha says: Number two, when I was 14 out, we agreed that all they issue is okay if I approve it. If 15 I don't approve it, it is to be presented to Sheikh Omar. If 16 he approves my point of view, it passes. If he approves 17 theirs, it passes. This is because Sheikh Omar is the one who 18 says and decides, not because it is their viewpoint. 19 A. Not because it is their -- okay. 20 Q. Sheikh Omar is Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 21 A. They are here -- yes. Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, yes. 22 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 32? 23 A. I need to explain something about this, you know, if I may? 24 Q. Let me ask you another question, Mr. Sattar. 25 After the call with Muntasir Al-Zayat and and Taha SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10595 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 ended, you spoke with Rifa'i a Taha after Mr. Al-Zayat hung up, 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And, you were discussing, with Rifa'i Taha, Sheikh Omar 5 Abdel Rahman's case, right? 6 A. Case? 7 Q. His case, his status. 8 A. I believe I'm discussing his condition. 9 Q. His condition, his status. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go down to the next page, please? 12 Slowly? Little bit further? Keep going. 13 At line 16 you say to Rifa'i Taha: Nothing can help 14 now unless it is a presidential pardon. 15 Right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you discuss the pardon a little bit and -- 18 Ms. Griffith, can you scroll down a little further, 19 please? Keep going? Please keep going. Thank you. 20 Line 9 you state: This is a very rare case. And 21 unless there is something in return, something like a change of 22 the situation in Egypt, Egypt trying to have an agreement with 23 them, something like that. Other than that, there is no, eh, 24 as long as the political situation is tranquil they show no 25 concern. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10596 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 You said that, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 4 Exhibit 1003X? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: In evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, this is a call on December 14th of 1998 9 between yourself and Mustafa Hamza, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And, this was around the time when you first started 12 speaking to him, right? 13 A. This could be one of the first calls, yes. 14 Q. Right. 15 Ms. Griffith, can you scroll down a little bit just on 16 the first page? 17 And you said, at line 5: Likewise, how are you doing? 18 And Hamza responds: I'm fine, thank you. 19 And you state: This is Yunis, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Because you were not that familiar with his voice at that 22 time? 23 A. I was told that, you know, somebody named Yunis is going to 24 call me, so I assume that was him. 25 Q. Right. Rifa'i Taha told you that Yunis was going to call SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10597 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 you? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you say to him at line 9: I'm waiting for this call 4 for days. How are you, my dear brother? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And during this call, the first time you spoke with him, 7 you spoke about Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you basically filled him in on Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 10 situation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And, do you recall telling him that the newspapers are read 13 to him on a weekly basis? 14 A. I say that, yes. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 16 Exhibit 1004X, in evidence? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, this is actually a continuation of the 19 previous call with Mustafa Hamza, right? It is also dated 20 December 14th of 1998? 21 A. I -- was the other one dated December 12? 22 Q. No, that was the call with Rifa'i Taha, which is 1002X. 23 A. Oh. So. 24 Q. And you see, it says at the top, continuation of call? 25 A. Okay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10598 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 3 of this exhibit? 2 Do you see at line 12 Mr. Hamza asks you: Does he 3 receive any books? 4 And you responded by saying: He receives books, of 5 course. It is permitted to record the books on tapes, and they 6 listen to them first... 7 He says: Yes. 8 And you said: After that, they pass it to him. 9 And Mustafa Hamza says: Do they have translators 10 specially for that purpose? 11 And you say: Yes, of course. They have a large 12 department for translation. 13 What you are telling Mustafa Hamza is that when 14 recordings of books are made, they're sent to the prison, 15 someone reviews them, and then if they approve, the tapes are 16 passed to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 What I am telling him that the books will be put on 19 tapes, it will be sent to, through the lawyers to the Bureau of 20 Prisons. The Bureau of Prisons will take it to the FBI and the 21 FBI will review it. And if they deem it appropriate for the 22 Sheikh to listen to it, they will give it to him. If not, they 23 will return it back. 24 This is what I'm saying. 25 Q. And so, you knew that there was a process in place at this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10599 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 time in December of 1998 for sending tapes to Sheikh Abdel 2 Rahman, right? 3 A. Yes. I know everything that, you know, will be sent to 4 him. It will go through that process, you know -- 5 Q. You know everything that was sent to him would go through 6 that process, right? 7 A. The tapes, if it's sent to him, you know, it will go 8 through that process. 9 And I didn't see, you know, when I -- even when I sent 10 the Taha book to him I didn't see anything wrong with that, 11 because I knew it was going through -- the FBI will listen to 12 it and if they deem it appropriate he will receive it. If not, 13 they will return it back. 14 Q. Right. They didn't let that book in, right? 15 A. No, they did not let that book in. 16 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 5 at the very bottom? 17 During this call, at line 21, Mustafa Hamza says to 18 you: I tell you what. If you can deliver the message through 19 the stooges saying "those people have no problem with you, but 20 what they most care about is to free the man by any means 21 without creating any problems. Also, this is not the problem 22 of those people, they don't have any problems with you." If 23 you succeed in delivering this message, it will open the doors 24 to cool the atmosphere and to negotiate the matter. What I'm 25 telling you is that the people want to send a clear message. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10600 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 "We have no problem with these people except for having the man 2 there, that is all. If the man is released, there will be no 3 problem between us." 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did I -- 6 A. I'm sorry. 7 Q. Did I read that right? 8 A. What he is saying here is that the Islamic Group has no 9 problem with the United States. 10 Q. Except for the fact? 11 A. Except for the fact that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman is in 12 prison. If the Sheikh is out of prison, they will have no 13 problem whatsoever with the United States. This is what he is 14 saying. 15 Q. But, if they don't release Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman from 16 prison they will have a problem with the United States, right? 17 A. I can't tell you what is, what I'm reading right here, 18 Mr. Morvillo. 19 Q. That's what Mustafa Hamza said to you, right? 20 A. Mustafa Hamza is saying if the Sheikh is released, they 21 have -- basically, there is no animosity between the Islamic 22 Group and the United States to begin with. 23 The only thing, the only animosity that all -- the 24 only factor that creating animosity between Islamic Group and 25 the United States is the Sheikh being in jail in the United SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10601 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 States. This is what he is telling me. 2 Q. Right. 3 This is the leader of a terrorist organization telling 4 you that they're upset with the United States for holding 5 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 6 A. Yes. This was not -- this was not a secret, Mr. Morvillo. 7 You know, they expressed that so many times so, I mean, he is 8 not telling me any secrets here. 9 Q. But, before had anybody ever asked you, personally, to 10 deliver a message that the Islamic Group -- 11 A. Before? 12 Q. -- before this telephone call had a leader of the Islamic 13 Group ever asked you to pass a message to anyone saying that. 14 Unless the Sheikh is released the Islamic Group will have, 15 continue to have a problem? 16 A. Before these calls I was never in touch with any leaders or 17 even members of the Islamic Group. This was my first time 18 ever, you know, speaking to some leaders or members of the 19 Islamic Group, Mr. Morvillo. 20 Q. And during this very first telephone call that you had with 21 Mustafa Hamza, he asked you to pass a message saying that the 22 Islamic Group has a problem with the fact that you're holding 23 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 24 A. Yes. He asked me this and he asked me also if I can get an 25 ad in the New York Times, you know, to advocate the Sheikh's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10602 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 release. 2 Also, in this conversation he asked me to do that. 3 Q. And -- 4 A. No, so we were just talking in general about the Sheikh, 5 the Sheikh's condition, what should be done, you know, for the 6 Sheikh. And he is, you know, he is just, you know, saying 7 things here. 8 Q. Right, and when he finished talking you said: What you are 9 saying is great. It is great, and I will say it with full 10 confidence, as they say. No problem. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Right? 13 And then he says to you: This might open the doors. 14 I hope that everything will be all right, by God's help. If 15 they insist on their stand this will be another issue. 16 Ms. Griffith can you scroll down, please? 17 If they insist on their stand, this will be another 18 issue. 19 In other words, what he is saying to you is if the 20 government of the United States does not release Sheikh Omar 21 Abdel Rahman that will be another issue, right? 22 A. What I am saying to him is this is -- 23 Q. That's not my question, Mr. Sattar. 24 A. -- is this is great. 25 THE COURT: Stop. One at a time. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10603 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. What I'm saying to him, this is great. I am always for a 2 political solution. I hate to see the United States 3 relationship with the Islamic movement going down. 4 He is talking about political solution here, he is 5 talking about, you know -- and I am for it. I know that the 6 Sheikh, you know, the Sheikh being here in jail is creating a 7 lot of controversy and, you know, he wants to -- he wants to 8 solve this. This will be, in my opinion, it would have been a 9 great thing, yes. 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, where does he talk about a political solution? 11 A. He is talking -- he is talking through the whole things 12 about political solution, Mr. Morvillo. I understand he is 13 talking about a political solution here. He is talking about 14 negotiating with the American government, you know, to tell 15 them, to tell the American government we have no animosity 16 toward you. 17 Q. And how -- 18 A. You know, that's what he is saying, that they have no 19 animosity, they have nothing toward the American government 20 except the Sheikh being here. If they can come to a solution 21 on this problem, you know, in my opinion it would have been 22 great. 23 Q. How does a terrorist organization negotiate? They say, 24 free the man or we'll take hostages, we'll kidnap people, we'll 25 kill people, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10604 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Mr. Morvillo, the negotiation does not happen between, you 2 know, just regular people, it happen between anybody. It 3 happen between enemies, it happen between people who did bad 4 things to each other and they sit down and they have political 5 negotiation. That's why we achieve -- that's how we achieve 6 peace in the world. 7 Q. And what, Mustafa Hamza, the leader of a terrorist 8 organization is telling you, is if the man is released there 9 will be no problem between us? 10 A. This is what he is saying, yes. 11 Q. And what that means is if he is not, there will be a 12 problem, right? 13 A. Well, I cannot say that. You know, he is saying, you 14 know -- what he is saying, he wants to have the Sheikh released 15 through some kind of negotiation and I was excited to hear 16 that, that he is trying to have some political negotiation. 17 Q. This was after, of course, the Islamic Group had threatened 18 to target all American interests until Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman 19 was released from prison, right? 20 A. They've been saying that, you know, for quite a number of 21 years, as what I told you before. 22 Q. And you understood that if the United States did not 23 release Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, the Islamic Group was going 24 to continue to threaten American interests, right? 25 A. Yes, as what I said, it was empty threats and from, at this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10605 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 point when I was talking to Mustafa Hamza and I was, when I was 2 talking to Rifa'i Taha, I understood fully that the Islamic 3 Group has absolutely no power to do anything. They were just a 4 shell, an empty shell. This is what they were -- 5 Q. Mr. Sattar -- 6 A. I did not finish, Mr. Morvillo. 7 I understood that the Islamic Group was just issuing 8 empty threats. My conversation with those people started 9 after, in 1998. The Islamic Group was already done with any 10 military or terrorist activities. They were done. They were 11 finished. 12 I finished. Thank you. 13 Q. Are you finished? 14 A. Thank you. 15 Q. You don't need a lot of organizational capability to carry 16 out a terrorist attack, do you? 17 A. I don't know but I assume, yes. 18 Q. You assume yes, you do? 19 A. I mean -- I mean I really don't know. I was not part of 20 any organizing thing. You know, I mean -- I mean I always -- 21 it could be one people, two people, three people. I don't 22 know. 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall giving an interview on Frontline? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you recall saying, in response to a question about the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10606 4CE5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 embassy bombings, the following: 2 This is where we don't agree. An act like the World 3 Trade Center or Oklahoma City bombing, or the bombing in the 4 embassy in Nairobi does not need many people to do it. Could 5 be Joe Schmoe and another person with him like in Oklahoma 6 City. Could be four or five people like in the World Trade 7 Center. 8 Do you recall saying that? 9 A. Yes. And that's exactly falls where I'm telling you. I 10 don't know, could be two people like in Oklahoma City bombing 11 where I read about it and it could be four or five people like 12 what happened at World Trade Center. 13 Q. Right. 14 A. So I really don't know. I am not, you know, I am not an 15 expert on bombing, Mr. Morvillo. 16 Q. But as far as you know, to carry out a terrorist attack all 17 you need is a gun and a fatwah, right? 18 A. No, Mr. Morvillo. You don't need a gun and a fatwah. 19 Timothy McVeigh did not have a fatwah, Mr. Morvillo, 20 when he killed 258 people. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10607 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I am going to move on to 2 another subject area. Do you want to take a break? 3 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will take a 4 ten-minute break. Please remember my continuing instructions. 5 Please don't talk about the case at all and always remember to 6 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence I've 7 instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to 8 begin your deliberations. See you shortly. 9 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 10 the jury room. 11 (Jury not present) 12 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 13 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the question by Mr. Morvillo 15 put to Mr. Sattar was: And his words, referring to Rifa'i 16 Taha's words, led to the embassy bombing in 1998, didn't they? 17 We respectfully -- it is our motion for a mistrial. In the 18 alternative, an instruction to the jury. There was no 19 good-faith basis for that question that Rifa'i Taha's words led 20 to the 1998 embassy. 21 The prosecutor then followed up with: You asked Lynne 22 Stewart to get it for you several questions later, i.e., the 23 indictment. And then it wasn't the Egyptian who indicted Bin 24 Laden. 25 In other words, not content with the question that had SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10608 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 no good-faith basis with respect to an event not charged, with 2 respect to an individual, Osama Bin Laden, who is not part of 3 any of the charged conspiracies, the prosecutor marched from 4 impropriety to impropriety to drive the point home. 5 We will at noontime, your Honor, be putting in a 6 declaration with respect to Taha in Egypt and why we believe 7 that he would testify, if they can find him, and with a 8 declaration that includes a statement under oath that, 9 according to a percipient witness who spoke to him, he later 10 withdrew his consent to the alleged fatwah. And the 11 government, of course, refuses to go and find out if Mr. Taha 12 is there. That's a separate issue. 13 Right now, my application is for a mistrial; in the 14 alternative, an admonition to the prosecutor and an instruction 15 to the jury that the question is improper. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo. 17 MR. MORVILLO: Obviously, we oppose the motion for a 18 mistrial, your Honor. There is no dispute that Rifa'i Taha 19 signed Osama Bin Laden's 1998 fatwah, February of 1998 fatwah 20 that called for the murder of Americans. I was questioning 21 Mr. Sattar about that. There is also no question that that 22 fatwah was included in the indictment as an overt act in 23 connection with the embassy bombings in August of 1998. I did 24 not bring that fact out, but that is in fact the case. And I 25 was questioning Mr. Sattar about his knowledge of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10609 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 connection between the fatwah, Rifa'i Taha, and the embassy 2 bombings. As your Honor has repeatedly pointed out, questions 3 are not evidence. But there certainly was a good-faith basis 4 for asking the question, your Honor. 5 MR. TIGAR: Mr. Sattar could not possibly know the 6 answer to that question, even if it were asked in good faith. 7 And as courts repeatedly say, the fact that something is an 8 overt act in an indictment -- I believe the government posed an 9 instruction that an overt act could be perfectly innocent -- 10 that really doesn't establish the record on a good-faith basis, 11 your Honor. There is plenty to cross-examine about here. This 12 matter has nothing to do with the case. 13 THE COURT: The motion for a mistrial is denied. I'm 14 satisfied there was a good-faith basis for the question. 15 However, I will give an instruction to the jury that 16 the embassy bombings are not a part of the charges in this 17 case, and you are to disregard any testimony about the embassy 18 bombings. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the testimony about the 20 embassy bombings is relevant to show Mr. Sattar's knowledge, 21 intent, and state of mind at the time that he began having 22 conversations with Rifa'i Taha. And so I would respectfully 23 request that the instruction you are going to give to the jury 24 be limited in that way. 25 MR. PAUL: I certainly would object with that kind of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10610 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 instruction being given to the jury, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 3 MR. PAUL: I would certainly object to that proposal 4 being given to the jury that Mr. Morvillo is suggesting, that 5 if you are giving a limited instruction that you direct it to 6 the knowledge of Mr. Sattar. Mr. Sattar has not testified with 7 regard to any knowledge he had of Taha's connection with the 8 embassy bombings, and I don't think that should be suggested to 9 the jury. 10 THE COURT: The witness testified that he did not know 11 that his words, I take it, or at least counsel argues that 12 that's Taha's words led to the embassy bombings in 1998 so that 13 if that's the extent of the proposed evidence with respect to 14 knowledge, intent, state of mind with respect to the embassy 15 bombings, it is -- is that it? 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, there was also I believe 17 some testimony earlier in the case about the embassy bombings 18 with respect to Mr. Fitzgerald. To the extent that you are 19 going to limit it, it would be just with respect to the 20 testimony this morning. 21 THE COURT: But that testimony is solely with respect 22 to one of the concerns that Mr. Fitzgerald had in issuing the 23 letter. 24 MR. MORVILLO: It was discussed during one of the 25 prison visits, I seem to recall, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10611 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: The embassy bombings are not part of the 2 charges in this case and none of the defendants are charged 3 with having anything to do with the embassy bombings, and you 4 are to disregard any testimony this morning about the embassy 5 bombings. I'll give that instruction to the jury when they 6 return. 7 (Recess) 8 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. Mr. Morvillo 9 is at the lecturn. 10 (Jury present) 11 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 12 Mr. Fletcher. 13 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 14 you are still under oath. 15 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you, sir. 16 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, before we proceed, I 17 want to instruct you and I will instruct you that the embassy 18 bombings are not part of the charges in this case and none of 19 the defendants is charged with having anything to do with the 20 embassy bombings, and you are to disregard any testimony this 21 morning about the embassy bombings. 22 Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 23 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 24 BY MR. MORVILLO: 25 Q. Mr. Sattar, at some point in early 1999 you got a letter SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10612 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 from Kamal and Gamal about the formation of a political party, 2 an Islamic political party? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that letter was directed to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, 5 right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what they wanted was his opinion as to whether they 8 should form an Islamic political party? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that's because Sheikh Omar Abdel, they wanted his 11 opinion because his opinion was important to them, right, as 12 far as you understood it? 13 A. They wanted his opinion because they needed some support. 14 Q. How did you get the letter? 15 A. It was -- I believe it was faxed to me by Muntasir 16 al-Zayyat. I got it through Muntasir. I am not sure how I got 17 it. I got it from Muntasir al-Zayyat. 18 Q. It was actually on your computer at some point? 19 A. Yes. It could be that I got it through e-mail. I'm not 20 quite sure if it was a fax or e-mail. I got a fax on my 21 computer. I don't know. 22 Q. And you discussed that letter with Mustafa Hamza in a 23 telephone conversation, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that call was Government Exhibit 1005 on January 26 of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10613 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 1999? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display a page from 4 Government Exhibit 1005 in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 2, 7 line 10. 8 Q. Mr. Sattar you say, you say to Mr. Hamza: I am glad that 9 you called because I, brackets, sigh, brackets a letter came 10 from Gamal Sultan and Kamal Habib. 11 That's the letter to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman 12 requesting his opinion on the formation of a political party? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In connection with discussing that at lines 20 and 21 15 Mustafa Hamza says: Take your time, no problem. What do they 16 want in their letter? Do they need a fatwah, or what? And you 17 responded: Yes they want, they want eh, eh, an opinion 18 concerning the party. Brackets, reading parts of the letter. 19 It will be founded on the eh, eh, eh, religious laws governing 20 the rulers and the application of God's laws and so on, and we 21 will not give up anything, and, eh, the stage we are going 22 through, meaning some of the mistakes took place. 23 You're reading him the letter that you had from Gamal 24 Sultan? 25 A. I don't know who -- let me just read it, please. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10614 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Sure. 2 A. Yes, I am reading parts of Gamal Sultan's letter. 3 Q. In fact, that letter is in evidence, right, that was 4 introduced in evidence in the government's case? 5 A. I had the possession of it, yes. 6 Q. That's Government Exhibit 2203A and the translation is 7 2203T? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 10 Exhibit 1006X in evidence? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, it was about this time that you began helping 13 Mohammed Yousry with his dissertation, right? 14 A. I am not sure if it was about this time that I begun 15 helping Mohammed Yousry with his dissertation. I cannot say 16 that I began helping Mohammed Yousry with his dissertation. It 17 was just what was going on with me and Mohammed Yousry was 18 discussion about, you know, things that he wants to -- things 19 that he read, and things that I read and we compare, you know, 20 his knowledge to my knowledge. I am not quite sure if it was 21 around this time or before that or after that. I cannot give 22 you an exact -- 23 THE COURT: Let me just stop for a moment. When you 24 identified Government Exhibit 1006X, could you identify the 25 date so that it is clear for the record? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10615 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 MR. MORVILLO: It is January 26 of 1999, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Thank you. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar, with respect to your discussions with 4 Mr. Yousry, those were ongoing during the course of your 5 relationship, right? 6 A. Yes. I mean, through the years, yes. 7 Q. But what I'm referring to is when you started corresponding 8 with leaders of the Islamic Group to assist in Mr. Yousry's 9 dissertation? 10 A. When I start -- 11 Q. Corresponding with leaders of the Islamic Group with 12 respect to Mr. Yousry's dissertation. 13 A. I don't understand your question. 14 Q. Isn't it a fact that you sent questions to Mustafa Hamza 15 and to Rifa'i Taha on behalf of Mr. Yousry for use in his 16 research on his dissertation? 17 A. I did send some questions that I got from Mr. Yousry, but I 18 never told Mr. Yousry who I was going to send it to. 19 Q. But you did tell him that you were sending questions 20 overseas, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And Ms. Griffith, if you could go to the bottom of this 23 page. Mustafa Hamza on this call says: Concerning our brother 24 who was preparing for the Ph.D., if you get from him the 25 specific information about the subjects and the material which SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10616 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 he is looking for, put it in writing in a nice way, that will 2 be fine. 3 And you say: God willing, God willing, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. That's a reference to the questions for Mr. Yousry's 6 dissertation, right? 7 A. Yes. He had some questions that he wants to know about and 8 I believe at this time that those people are probably the only 9 one that they can -- they know about it. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Ms. Griffith, could you go to the next 11 page. 12 Q. Then Mustafa Hamza says to you: I talked to Abu Yasir. 13 Maybe he can eh, eh, he can prepare something for the periods 14 of 1986 and 1992. He may try, and this will help that man. Do 15 you trust him? Is he a good brother? And then you say: Oh, 16 yes, yes. Abu Yasir is Rifa'i Taha, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you understood that Mustafa Hamza and Rifa'i Taha spoke 19 about the questions for the dissertation, right? 20 A. This is what I believe he is saying, yes. 21 Q. And he is suggesting to you that perhaps Rifa'i Taha can 22 answer questions pertaining to the 1986 to 1992 time period, 23 right? 24 A. No. He is not -- that he there is not referring to Rifa'i 25 Taha. I believe that he there, he can -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10617 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. He says: I talked to Abu Yasir, maybe he can eh, he can 2 prepare something for the periods of 1986 and 1992. He may 3 try, and this will help that man. 4 A. Yes. You are right, yes. It was -- he was referring to 5 Rifa'i Taha. 6 Q. And you knew that the subject matter, of course, of 7 Mr. Yousry's dissertation was Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and the 8 Islamic Group, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And, in fact, you told him that you were going to pass 11 information to leaders of the Islamic Group to assist him in 12 doing research on the dissertation, right? 13 A. I might told him that, but I might also -- I am not -- I 14 cannot say that I told him I am going to send it to the leaders 15 of the Islamic Group directly. I'm not quite sure. I really 16 cannot remember if I told him that I am going to send it, you 17 know, to the leaders of the Islamic Group or in what way. 18 Q. But in fact you did? 19 A. Yes, I did send it to the Islamic Group, but I don't think 20 that Mr. Yousry knew who I was sending the letters to. 21 Q. He never asked you? 22 A. He never asked me? 23 Q. He never asked you who you were sending the questions to? 24 A. I never get an answer for the questions, so I never -- 25 Q. My question to you was, did Mr. Yousry ever ask you, hey, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10618 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Mr. Sattar, who were you sending these questions to? 2 A. This subject I spoke to Mr. Yousry on before and it was 3 before even I had any phone conversations with Rifa'i Taha or 4 Mustafa Hamza and that subject was on who is going to receive 5 this, and I believe it was Muntasir al-Zayyat. The only person 6 I knew at the time was Muntasir al-Zayyat. I don't recall 7 telling him that I am going to send it to Rifa'i Taha or I am 8 going to send it to Mustafa Hamza or any leaders, per se. 9 Q. You did tell him that it was going to the leaders in 10 prison, right? 11 A. Yes. Through Muntasir al-Zayyat. 12 Q. But it was going to go to the leaders in prison? 13 A. Through Muntasir al-Zayyat. That's what I meant. 14 Q. But you told Mr. Yousry that the questions were going to be 15 put to the leaders of the Islamic Group, whether they were in 16 prison or in Afghanistan, doesn't matter, but they were going 17 to be put to the leaders of the group, right? 18 A. What I'm saying, Mr. Morvillo, I don't remember telling 19 Mr. Yousry specifics, this is what I am trying to say, or how I 20 am going -- how am I going to send it. This is what I am 21 trying to say. 22 Q. But it is true that you told him that it was going to be 23 sent to the leaders of the group in prison? 24 A. I might. 25 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could I move to have the last SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10619 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 answer stricken as speculative? He might have. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 Q. Did there come a point in time when you sent questions to 4 Mustafa Hamza, right? 5 A. I am not sure if it was to Mustafa Hamza or Rifa'i Taha. I 6 sent questions to one of them. 7 Q. They were both working on responses to the questions, 8 right? 9 A. I am not sure. I know one of them, but -- 10 THE COURT: Let me go back. I will strike the answer, 11 the might have answer, as speculation. You can follow with 12 what you want. 13 Go ahead. 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, is there anything that would refresh your 15 recollection as to whether you in fact said to Mr. Yousry that 16 the questions were going to go to the leaders in prison? 17 A. If there is anything that will refresh my recollection, I 18 really don't remember. 19 Q. Perhaps listening to a telephone call between yourself and 20 Mr. Yousry? 21 A. It could be. I am not -- I mean, I'm sitting here, I 22 really don't remember. 23 MR. MORVILLO: May I have a moment, your Honor? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10620 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Government Exhibit 1009X in evidence? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation on March 22, 4 1999 between yourself and Rifa'i Taha, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 9. 7 Q. At line 20, Rifa'i Taha says to you: I almost finished 8 with 99 percent of the things. Then you say yes. And he says: 9 That belong to the college teacher. And you say yes -- you 10 say: Good, may God reward you graciously. And then Rifa'i 11 Taha says: Few touches. And then you say: He was just asking 12 me about them. And then Rifa'i Taha says: Tell him there are 13 a few more touches left, and stuff -- a few touches left, 14 review and stuff before I send them to him. They may be about 15 15 or 20 pages. And then you responded: May God reward you 16 graciously. He will be very pleased with them. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Rifa'i Taha is speaking about the response to the questions 19 that you posed for assisting in Mr. Yousry's dissertation, 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And when you said to Rifa'i Taha, Mr. Yousry or he was just 23 asking me about them, you were referring to a conversation 24 between yourself and Mr. Yousry in which he was inquiring of 25 the questions that you had sent overseas, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10621 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, directing your attention back to the letter from Kamal 3 Habib and Gamal Sultan -- 4 MR. MORVILLO: Ms. Griffith, you can take this down. 5 Q. After you got that letter, you made arrangements for 6 Ms. Stewart and Mr. Yousry to travel to FMC Rochester to visit 7 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 8 A. I got this letter in January, I believe, and the visit was 9 in March. 10 Q. So after that you made arrangements at some point? 11 A. Yes, I made arrangement in March, yes. 12 Q. It wasn't the next day. The visit was on March 1 and 2, so 13 you made the arrangements earlier, probably in February? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And at this point in time Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman had been 16 transferred to the Federal Medical Center at Rochester, right? 17 A. It was in 1999, yes. 18 Q. Prior to that you purchased plane tickets for Ms. Stewart 19 and Mr. Yousry to travel out there, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you brought those tickets to Mr. Yousry and 22 Ms. Stewart? 23 A. Did I bring -- 24 Q. You conveyed them to them? You gave them to them? 25 A. I gave the tickets to one of them. I am not quite sure SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10622 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 who. 2 Q. As you testified on direct you wrote a letter to Sheikh 3 Omar Abdel Rahman in advance of the March 1999 visit, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you gave it to either Mr. Yousry or Ms. Stewart to 6 present to the Sheikh, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And your letter included the letter from Gamal and Kamal 9 about the political parties? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you give them a copy of Gamal and Kamal's letter? 12 A. I don't believe that I did. I believe that the copy of the 13 letter, it is very far back. And I believe that the copy, when 14 I first received that letter from Muntasir Al-Zayyat in January 15 of 1999, I think I forwarded that letter to Abdeen Jabara to be 16 read to the Sheikh on the phone and to get the answer from him. 17 And I did not get any answers until later on -- on that letter 18 until later on. This was -- this is how -- I remember clearly 19 giving the letter to Mr. Jabara back then in January when I got 20 it. 21 Q. But it wasn't until after the March 1999 prison visit that 22 you actually got a response to that letter, right? 23 A. I believe I got the response in March, yes. 24 Q. Now, the day after the visit on March 3 of 1999 you met 25 with Mohammed Yousry to have coffee, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10623 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. The day after the visit? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. I am not sure if it was the day after the visit. I used to 4 meet with Yousry regularly. I used to see him a lot, before 5 the visit, after the visit. And if there is no visits, you 6 know -- so when you say day after the visit, I am not sure. 7 Q. Is it fair to say that you would have met with him very 8 soon after the visit ended? 9 A. I would have met with him when he come back, yes. But when 10 exactly, I really don't know. I would have seen him some time 11 after the visit. 12 Q. Do you recall meeting with Mr. Yousry after this prison 13 visit? 14 A. Do I recall meeting? I don't recall precisely meeting with 15 him after that visit, but, you know, most likely I saw him, 16 yes. As I explained to you, I explain on my direct, I was 17 seeing him regularly. 18 Q. And what you said is, after the visits you would get 19 together, he would open his notebooks, you would copy down 20 answers and responses, right? 21 A. Yes. This is what -- things used to happen this way. 22 Q. Now, when you met with Mr. Yousry after the March '99 23 visit, he told you that Sheikh Abdel Rahman had given a 24 response to the political party issue, right? 25 A. I am not sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10624 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 MR. MORVILLO: May I approach, your Honor? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Actually, your Honor, may I display for 4 the witness and for the jury Government Exhibit 2059? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: In evidence. Which is admitted without 7 instruction? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Q. Mr. Sattar, that is your handwriting, right? 10 A. Yes, it is my handwriting. 11 Q. And these are notes that you took of statements made by 12 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman in the March 1999 prison visit, right? 13 A. This is -- the answer is yes. Yes. 14 Q. And this section here along the right-hand side, those are 15 the points that he dictated with respect to the political party 16 issue, right? 17 A. This is the ten points, yes, he dictated. 18 Q. And then here on the back there are some numbers? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that Arabic word there, what does that say? 21 A. Hotel. 22 Q. Hotel? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And does this refresh your recollection that when you were 25 talking to Mr. Yousry he was telling you how much the hotel SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10625 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 cost? 2 A. Yes, it was. 3 Q. This was so you could reimburse him for his expenses, 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So this would have been a conversation or a meeting that 7 you had with him shortly after the May 1999 prison visit, 8 right? 9 A. Yes. 10 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Was that May 1999? 11 MR. MORVILLO: I'm sorry. March 1999. 12 Q. Do you recall where you were when you wrote this document? 13 A. Where I was? 14 Q. Where you were. 15 A. I am not sure. 16 Q. But those were very detailed notes of what Sheikh Omar 17 Abdel Rahman had said, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. It was basically a verbatim translation, verbatim 20 transcription of what had been said to you? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. Personal 23 knowledge, foundation. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Withdraw the question. Let me reask 25 the question. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10626 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 Q. When you sat down with Mr. Yousry, you looked at his notes 3 and you wrote what he had in his notes down on that piece of 4 paper, right? 5 A. I cannot read -- Yousry's handwriting is so bad. He 6 usually read it to me. 7 Q. He would have dictated to you what his notes were? 8 A. Yes. This is how it would usually happen. 9 Q. But it was your understanding that the words were the words 10 said by Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 11 A. That the words were said by the Sheikh, yes. This is 12 answers to some of the Sheikh's -- it is the Sheikh's words, as 13 far as I know. 14 Q. After you got the Sheikh's response to the questions -- 15 incidentally, there was also -- withdrawn. 16 The Sheikh also issued a statement related to the 17 ceasefire in the March 1999 visit, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And that was in response to a request through you by Rifa'i 20 Taha for Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's support in opposing the 21 ceasefire? 22 A. I'm sorry? 23 Q. That was in response to a request submitted by you to 24 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman on behalf of Rifa'i Taha asking Sheikh 25 Omar Abdel Rahman to support Rifa'i Taha's opposition to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10627 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 ceasefire? 2 A. It was a request from Rifa'i Taha to support his position, 3 asking the Sheikh's support. I told you as what I told Mr. 4 Fallick on direct, he was just nagging and complaining about 5 people want to shut him up and things like this. So that was 6 in that aspect. 7 Q. In fact, what Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman said in response 8 was, they called for the halt of violence, and you don't agree, 9 right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So they are talking about the ceasefire? 12 A. They are talking about the peace initiative, yes. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 14 Government Exhibit 1007X? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation on March 9 of 17 1999? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And this is a call between yourself and Mr. Mustafa Hamza, 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And at this point in time, March 9, you had already 23 received the responses from Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman to the 24 questions, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10628 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 MR. MORVILLO: Ms. Griffith, can you scroll down a 2 little. Can you move up just a little bit, please, further. 3 Q. Line 6 you say: Regarding that subject, the party. He 4 says yes. You say: Of course, he rejected it completely. I 5 have a -- also regarding the -- to be aware of what is going 6 on, all what it had been said in the last period was conveyed 7 to him exactly the same, as it is. 8 Now, the first part of that answer that you say to 9 Mustafa Hamza is that he rejected it completely? 10 A. Yes. According to his answer, yes, he rejected the 11 political party idea. 12 Q. He is talking about -- you're telling him that Sheikh Omar 13 Abdel Rahman rejected the proposal to form an Islamic political 14 party? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. In fact, during this telephone call you read the letter to 17 Mustafa Hamza, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's response, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's response was in ten points? 20 A. I believe it was in ten points, yes. 21 Q. And as you understood it, the gist of what Sheikh Omar 22 Abdel Rahman was saying was that it was not permissible to 23 participate in a government that was not conducted in 24 accordance with Islamic law? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10629 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you also understood that one reason why Sheikh Abdel 2 Rahman took that position was because he believed that the 3 ceasefire was a tactic that the Islamic Group was employing, 4 right? 5 A. This is what he said there, yes. 6 Q. So it is your understanding that his goal was still to 7 replace the government in Egypt with an Islamic government? 8 A. Yes. He never abandoned that goal. 9 Q. And it is also your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman 10 viewed the joining of the political system in Egypt as 11 abandoning the goal of overthrowing the government? 12 A. My understanding, he was saying, if he is endorsing an 13 Islamic government and the Egyptian government is not an 14 Islamic government. So if he joined them in the parliament or 15 he joined them in the government, so that mean he is taking 16 their side. So his criticism, it is not valid. So this is 17 what he was trying to say there or that's what I understood 18 from what he was saying there. 19 Q. That's your understanding of what his opinion was, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So, in other words, you understood that Abdel Rahman 22 believed that the Islamic Group should remain outside the 23 political system in Egypt until Egypt is governed by sharia? 24 A. I have to clear one thing here, there is two people who 25 sent the letters. Kamal Habib and Gamal Sultan are not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10630 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 associated -- I mean, to my knowledge, they are not people -- 2 they do not represent the Islamic Group. They are not from the 3 Islamic Group. So I can't say that the Sheikh is just, you 4 know, talking about the Islamic Group per se. This is his 5 overall view about Islam and this is what he thinks about 6 political parties in general. I am not sure about, you know, 7 that the Islamic Group, this is what he is saying, that the 8 Islamic Group should do this or should not do that. But I know 9 this was his just -- his view on political party in general, 10 yes. 11 Q. But my question to you was whether you understood that 12 Sheikh Abdel Rahman believed that the Islamic Group should 13 remain outside the political system in Egypt until Egypt is 14 governed by sharia? 15 A. In his view, no Muslim should join the government that's 16 existing in Egypt, you know, under that current circumstances 17 that's existing in Egypt. So I can't say that he is talking 18 just about the Islamic Group or he is just talking in general. 19 But, you know, if this is what I understood, Mr. Morvillo, I 20 cannot elaborate anymore. 21 Q. And what you said before about Kamal and Gamal was that 22 they were not members, as you understood, of the Islamic Group? 23 A. As what I know from reading, their response to this letter 24 in the newspapers, Gamal Habib is a journalist in Egypt and he 25 is member of a party called Al-Amal labor party in Egypt. He SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10631 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 is a very well-known man in Egypt and Gamal Sultan is a very 2 well-known author and thinker, if I want to put it this way. 3 So I don't think they were affiliated with the Islamic Group. 4 Q. But they were seeking the opinion of the leader of the 5 Islamic Group, right? 6 A. They were seeking the opinion of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, 7 yes. 8 Q. Now, let's just stay with the issue of political parties 9 here for one more minute. You testified on direct that you 10 differed from Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman on the issue of 11 political parties, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And let's just be clear about this. 14 MR. MORVILLO: Ms. Griffith, you can take this exhibit 15 down. You. 16 Q. You only endorsed political parties within an Islamic 17 framework, right? 18 A. I was giving two points of view under Islamic law: A 19 political party of people who endorsed political parties and 20 people who completely reject the political party system, and I 21 endorse the multiple party system. 22 Q. But only under Islamic law? 23 A. Mr. Morvillo, not only under Islamic law. I said that I am 24 a supporter of applying Islamic law in the Muslim country with 25 the majority of Muslims, and I would love to see a multiple SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10632 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 political party system in a country like that. But if I live 2 somewhere else I will join the political process, whether it is 3 an Islamic country or not. I live here, I vote, I am 4 registered as a voter, and I did note. I voted the republicans 5 and I voted democratics. So I am a believer of the 6 political -- multiple political party. But under Islamic law, 7 yes, I would love to see Islamic parties ruling, you know, and 8 exchanging ideas and stuff like that. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Ahmed Sattar 10 Exhibit 19T in evidence? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. These are your words, right, Mr. Sattar: Thus, you see 13 that the issue of political parties in an Islamic state, I 14 repeat -- an Islamic -- 15 A. What are you reading, Mr. Morvillo? 16 THE COURT: Hold on. The witness asked for what 17 document it was. 18 A. Where exactly are you reading? 19 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Sattar. Right here: Thus. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Thus, you see that the issue of political parties in an 22 Islamic state -- I repeat, an Islamic state that applies the 23 sharia of God is a matter of ijtihad? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You said that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10633 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, I said that. I said that it is a matter of people 2 think about it and, you know, I'm talking about the political 3 party in a Muslim state according to Islamic jurisprudence 4 where people completely rejected and other people agreed to it. 5 If you look at the end of this document and I'm saying, I am 6 with -- I lean, if not completely support that line that wants 7 multiple political parties in an Islamic state. 8 Q. In an Islamic state, right. So you agreed with Sheikh Omar 9 Abdel's Rahman opinion that there should not be participation 10 in Egypt at this time, right? 11 A. Sheikh Omar Rahman's opinion is completely rejecting 12 political parties. If you read this document, I detail it, the 13 two opinions, the two people and their reasoning for rejecting 14 a political party and for their reasoning of accepting 15 political party. 16 Q. Right. But your reasoning is premised on the existence of 17 an Islamic state, right, yes or no, Mr. Sattar? 18 A. I cannot just say yes or no, Mr. Morvillo. This is my 19 writing right here. And I have to explain the thing that I 20 said. 21 Q. I'm asking you whether your opinion is there must be an 22 Islamic state for political parties for there to be an Islamic 23 political party. 24 A. In this document I was discussing what I was talking about, 25 an Islamic party in an Islamic state, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10634 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And Egypt, in your opinion, is an Islamic state, right? 2 A. Egypt, it is not -- 3 Q. Is not an Islamic state. 4 A. Egypt is a Muslim country. It is not ruled under Islamic 5 law. 6 Q. So, therefore, it is your opinion that there should not be 7 participation in the political process in Egypt? 8 A. No, it is not that. In my opinion, people should 9 participate, people should vote. If they are given the chance 10 to vote and there is an election in Egypt, free election in 11 Egypt, I am urging the people and I did urge the people to go 12 out and vote. This is a legitimate right for every human being 13 to be able to choose his government. And I am a true believer 14 of that and I participate here. I would be a hypocrite to say 15 that Egyptians could not vote, and I am practicing this right 16 here in America. America is not an Islamic state and I am 17 practicing this right and I adore it. I never miss an election 18 since I've become a citizen in 1989. 19 Q. Are you finished? 20 A. Yes. Thank you. 21 Q. Returning back to your telephone conversation with Mustafa 22 Hamza -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. After you told him about the fact that the Sheikh had 25 issued an opinion about the political party issue, you faxed it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10635 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 to him, right? 2 A. After I told him -- I did fax it to him, yes. 3 Q. And he told you that he wanted to think about it for a 4 couple of days before he responded, right? 5 A. I am not sure exactly what he said now. I don't have the 6 document in front of me, so I really don't know what he said. 7 Q. Were you aware that there was concern as to whether it 8 should be published or not? 9 A. I think it was, you know. There was a concern, yes. 10 Q. You wanted to be kept in the loop if the opinion was going 11 to be published, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You also told Muntasir al-Zayyat about the political party 14 statement, right? 15 A. Yes. I originally received it from him. 16 Q. So you called him in March of 1999 and you read him the 17 Sheikh's response as well, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you recall that he told you that the Sheikh's 20 statements should not be published? 21 A. He could have said that. 22 Q. And you also sent the letter, the Sheikh's statement on 23 political parties, to Rifa'i Taha, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you also spoke to Yassir Al-Sirri about the Sheikh's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10636 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 statement on political parties, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, there was a second letter -- a second statement that 4 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman made in the March 1999 visit, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that one related to Rifa'i Taha's request for support 7 in the ceasefire, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You also read that statement to Mustafa Hamza over the 10 telephone, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what you told Mustafa Hamza was that Rifa'i Taha's 13 position was presented to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and the 14 point of view of the brothers in the prison was presented to 15 Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 16 A. I believe so. 17 Q. And just to distill it down, Rifa'i Taha was against the 18 ceasefire and the brothers in prison in Egypt were in support 19 of the ceasefire, right? 20 A. Rifa'i Taha was opposing, yes, the way that this whole 21 thing was working, the way -- the initiative. He was just, you 22 know, opposing how it came out, the mechanism of coming out, 23 who initiated and who did not initiate it. He was -- if you go 24 to Rifa'i Taha's talks with Salah Hashim, the talks between 25 Rifa'i Taha and Salah, they were talking about, you know, he is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10637 4CEMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 almost criticizing how the peace initiative came out to light. 2 So, yes, this is in my letter was stating Rifa'i Taha's 3 position, yes. 4 Q. He opposed the ceasefire, right? 5 A. He did oppose how it came out to life, yes. 6 Q. You had arranged for Rifa'i Taha's opinion and the opposing 7 opinions to be presented to Sheikh Abdel Rahman by Mohammed 8 Yousry and Lynne Stewart, right? 9 A. Yes. And it was good, actually, because right after that, 10 the Islamic Group outside and inside Egypt issued a statement, 11 I think it was in April 1999, and both parties agreed on the 12 peace initiative and they all endorse it. 13 Q. Right. And that document is in evidence, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10638 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 2 Q. You translated that document, right? 3 A. Did I translate it? I'm not sure if I translated that 4 document or somebody else did. I'm not sure. 5 Q. You remember that document, it had a sticker on it from 6 Abdeen Jabara to Mohammed Yousry which said that there was, 7 that Ahmed S. had done a translation but it was a bit rough? 8 A. Yes. I -- I remember seeing it but I'm not sure if I did 9 translate it. 10 Q. I'll show it to you in a few minutes. 11 A. Yes. That's good. 12 Q. The way that you conveyed the opinion of Rifa'i Taha 13 opposing the cease-fire and the opinions of the brothers in the 14 prison was through a letter that you sent in to the prison with 15 Lynne Stewart and Mohammed Yousry, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 18 Exhibit, I think it's 1007X, in evidence? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. Do you see, Mr. Sattar, line 3 -- 21 THE COURT: Is there a date? 22 MR. MORVILLO: I'm so sorry. It is March 9th of 1999. 23 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Sattar? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you, he's asking you to read the statement while you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10639 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 are preparing the fax, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Because you were going to fax it to him? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you say, and you read it, "with respect to your 6 opinion, which is a very good opinion, but you have to give 7 some time to the brothers who are in prison. There is no 8 objection to have some difference. They call for the halt of 9 violence, and you don't agree." 10 Those are the Sheikh's words, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. At the end of the statement here it says: No new charter 13 and nothing should happen or be done without consulting me or 14 informing me. 15 A. And that's precisely what I was saying. 16 THE COURT: Hold on. I'm not sure there was a 17 question. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 19 Q. You testified on direct that the charter was the Islamic 20 Group charter, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And, what your understanding was, was that Abdel Rahman was 23 saying, to the Islamic Group, don't change the charter and 24 don't do anything without getting in touch with me, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10640 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 As what I said, this was one of the main complaints of 2 Rifa'i Taha, his complaining about the group is changing 3 things, you know, and they want to shut him up. They don't 4 want any opinions to expressed and they are going to change the 5 charter of the group and the Sheikh is telling him, as what I 6 said too, that the Sheikh was, supervised that. If you see the 7 charter, the cover of the charter it said, Supervised by Sheikh 8 Omar Abdel Rahman. And he is telling him no change. That 9 charter should not be changed without somebody consulting him. 10 Q. Now, at the end of the day, Mr. Sattar, Sheikh Abdel Rahman 11 did not support Rifa'i Taha's view at this time, right? 12 A. Yes, he did not support Rifa'i. Rifa'i -- he did not sided 13 with Rifa'i Taha and says, you know, I am not going to agree to 14 the peace initiative or I am going to speak against peace 15 initiative. 16 Q. In fact, after -- did you finish your answer? 17 A. Go ahead, Mr. Morvillo. Please. 18 Q. After the Sheikh issued the statement there was then a 19 statement which we spoke about a few moments ago from the 20 Islamic Group endorsing the cease-fire? 21 A. Yes. They were a statement from the Islamic Group 22 endorsing the initiative; yes. 23 Q. It's fair to say that Rifa'i Taha was a little disappointed 24 in the response that he got, as far as you understood, from 25 Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10641 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. I'm not sure if he was disappointed or not. I don't recall 2 exactly, you know, what was his -- 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 4 Government Exhibit 1009X, in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you scroll down to page 2 a bit, I think? 7 Can you go back to the first page? 8 This is a call on December of 1999? 9 A. Yes, I've seen that, yes. 10 Q. During this call you, this was the first time that you had 11 spoken to Rifa'i Taha, as far as you know, after you received 12 the Sheikh's response? 13 A. Could be the first time, I'm not -- 14 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you scroll down a little bit? 15 And you and Taha are talking about at line 9 he says: 16 How is the man? 17 The man he is referring to is Sheikh Abdel Rahman, 18 right? 19 A. I'm sorry? 20 Q. The man that Rifa'i Taha is referring to at line 9 is 21 Sheikh Abdel Rahman? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you say: Thank God he's fine. 24 And Rifa'i Taha says: Did you convey to him our 25 greetings? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10642 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 And you say: Yes, didn't you get something? 2 And he says: Yes, I am very pleased with what I got. 3 And you say: Good, thank God. 4 He says: Two letters, both are good; but I wanted the 5 second one which is eh, the one for me, a little stronger. 6 So he was a little disappointed in the response he got 7 from the Sheikh? 8 A. Yes, he was actually saying that he was very pleased with 9 what he got. 10 Q. But that he wanted it to be a little bit stronger? 11 A. Yes, he wanted the one, you know, to, you know, to be a 12 little stronger, but it does not mean that he's not pleased 13 with it. He was -- or he is disappointed. The man stated that 14 he was pleased with what he got. 15 Q. In late March of 1999 there was a statement issued by the 16 Islamic Group stating that the Islamic Group's overseas units 17 pledged to support the cease-fire, right? 18 A. There was a statement, yes, issued, you know. I'm not sure 19 the exact words but, you know, they were -- everybody was 20 supporting the peace, the initiative. They all come aboard on 21 it. 22 Q. And you spoke on the telephone about this statement on a 23 couple of occasions, right? 24 A. I think I did, yes. 25 Q. In fact, Mustafa Hamza called you on one occasion and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10643 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 confirmed for you that it was an authentic statement, right? 2 A. Yes, well -- yes. He said it was an authentic, yes. 3 Q. In fact, he faxed it to you, right? 4 A. I'm not sure if he faxed it to me or he -- or it was 5 e-mailed to me. I'm not -- I'm not sure. 6 Q. But he conveyed it to you, right? 7 A. Yes, he told me about it was -- as a matter of fact, I 8 think, you know, the first one that told me about it was 9 Muntasir Al-Zayat -- 10 Q. Right? 11 A. -- and then Mustafa Hamza said, you know, it was 12 authentic, yes. 13 Q. Muntasir Al-Zayat called you to find out whether it was an 14 authentic statement, right? 15 A. Yes. He wanted to know and I had no idea. 16 Q. Because he didn't know either. He had seen it and he 17 called you to say, hey, is this authentic? 18 A. He called me to ask if this is true, did I receive it? And 19 I had no idea about it. 20 Q. And then you spoke to Mustafa Hamza and he confirmed for 21 you that it was an authentic statement? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then you sent it to Mohammed Yousry, right? 24 A. No, I don't think that I send it to Mohammed Yousry. 25 Q. Isn't it a fact that on March 27th of 1999 at 9:00 you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10644 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 called Mohammed Yousry and told him about the statement and 2 said you were going to fax it to him? 3 A. I could. I could have to, you know, I mean -- I'm not sure 4 that I sent it to him or I sent it to who. I'm not sure. 5 Q. Well, he ultimately wound up with it, right, because it was 6 abused -- 7 A. I'm sorry. 8 Q. He ultimately wound up with it, right, because it was 9 introduced as a piece of search evidence seized from his 10 apartment? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 13 Exhibit 2415-5, in evidence? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. MORVILLO: This is only against Mr. Sattar and 16 Mr. Yousry, not for the truth. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 Q. This is the covering note that I referred to a moment ago. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. This is a note from Abdeen Jabara? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And Ahmed S. -- that's you, right? 23 A. Yes, that's most likely me, yes. 24 Q. And the first page of this document -- Ms. Griffith, if you 25 can go to the Arabic -- this is the statement that was sent to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10645 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 you, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And this in fact, if you could scroll down to the bottom -- 4 A. I'm sorry? 5 Q. This version of it was pulled off of the Almurabeton 6 website, right? 7 A. Yes, I can see that, that it was coming from Almurabeton 8 website, that's why I can't say how I got it in a fax or, you 9 know, got it from the Islamic Group website or how did I get it 10 exactly, I -- 11 Q. And Ms. Griffith, if you can go to the third page of the 12 exhibit? The page after this one. 13 Mr. Sattar, does this look like a document that you 14 created? 15 A. It looks, translation, yes of the document that I -- 16 Q. This is your translation, right? 17 A. Yes. My translation? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Is this my translation? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. This is not my translation. 22 Q. This is not a translation that you did? 23 A. No, no, no. It's not my translation. 24 Q. But this is a translation of the statement, right? 25 A. I see it is a translation of the statement, yes. I don't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10646 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 know whose translation is this. 2 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you scroll down a little bit toward the 3 bottom half of the page? 4 Do you see where the two stars are here, Mr. Sattar? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Let me read that to you. 7 That the group didn't forget and will not forget its 8 scholar and leader Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman who has been 9 imprisoned unjustly in the United States. And it will do 10 everything it can to free him no matter how long it will take 11 or how much sacrifice will it cost. And we are also extending 12 the invitation to all Muslims and specially the Muslim scholars 13 to help free this great scholar. 14 Do you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. It's your understanding, is it not, that the cease-fire did 17 not apply to efforts to get Sheikh Abdel Rahman out of prison? 18 A. My understanding that the Islamic Group was committed to 19 the peace initiative and this is in, to everything, the Islamic 20 Group abandoning raising arms forever. 21 They had no capability of doing anything, they did not 22 have any ability to do anything. As what I said, you know, 23 from 19 -- from 1997 -- after 1997 until today, actually they 24 have done nothing. I mean, they did not raise arms whatsoever, 25 I -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10647 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Please, listen to the question that's been 2 asked, all right? 3 Q. The question I believe was, Mr. Sattar, isn't it a fact 4 that the cease-fire didn't apply to efforts to release Sheikh 5 Omar Abdel Rahman from prison? 6 A. I believe it does apply to -- to him, too. 7 Q. Well, you did know that Rifa'i Taha believed that the 8 cease-fire did not apply to efforts to relieve Sheikh Abdel 9 Rahman from prison, right? 10 A. Rifa'i Taha was making statements left and right. 11 Q. My question was, did you know or did you not know that 12 Rifa'i Taha stated that the cease-fire did not apply to efforts 13 to free Sheikh Abdel Rahman from prison? 14 A. I don't remember him saying that. 15 MR. MORVILLO: May I approach, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Mr. Sattar, I'm handing you what's been marked for 18 identification as Government Exhibit 513T. Would I ask you to 19 familiarize yourself with the document, it's a long document, 20 but -- and then turn to page 5 and 6 and read the highlighted 21 portion and then I ask you if that refreshes your recollection. 22 A. Sure. 23 Can I see the original one in Arabic, please? 24 MR. MORVILLO: May I have a moment, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10648 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 While there is a moment and we have been going for a 2 considerable period, maybe we can take this as an opportunity 3 for a stretch break. 4 (Stretch break) 5 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 6 Ladies and gentlemen, I see that you took the 7 opportunity for a, for the stretch and if at any time you need 8 it, you just raise your hands because I'm prepared either to do 9 a stretch break or a longer break for you. So, you just raise 10 your hand. 11 Okay, thank you. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I don't have a hard copy of 13 the Arabic but we do have it on the computer and I believe that 14 we can display it just for the witness and counsel. 15 May I do that? 16 THE COURT: All right. Just on the screens. 17 MR. MORVILLO: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Is that satisfactory? 19 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, quite frankly, this might be an 20 appropriate time for a recess that will allow Mr. Sattar to 21 read the document and -- 22 THE COURT: Fine, sure. Okay. 23 Ladies and gentlemen, we will take a 10 minute break. 24 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk about 25 the case at all, always remember to keep an open mind. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10649 4CE5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 All rise, please. 2 Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury room. 3 (Jury not present) 4 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 (Witness steps down) 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. TIGAR: We have an application. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I move to strike the last 12 question, which was: Isn't it a fact that the cease-fire 13 didn't ap