10802 4CFMSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 15, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10803 4CFMSAT1 1 (Trial resumed) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Mr. Dember, is it all right without 4 Ms. Baker? 5 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor, we can proceed. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 7 Mr. Morvillo, go to the lecturn. 8 The jurors are still filling out menus. 9 (Jury present) 10 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It is 11 good to see you all as always. 12 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 13 Mr. Fletcher. 14 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 15 you are still under oath. 16 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 17 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, resumed. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may examine. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 20 Your Honor, may I display for the jury Government 21 Exhibit 1048X in evidence? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd) 24 BY MR. MORVILLO: 25 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation, a transcript SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10804 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 of a telephone conversation that occurred on January 5, 2000? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And it was between you and Fawzi? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. This was the first time that you spoke with the person who 6 identified himself as Fawzi, right? 7 A. Yes, I believe so, yes. 8 Q. Displaying page 2 of the transcript, at line 1 you say: 9 Thanks be to God. Who is this? Who is calling? And he says, 10 Fawzi, son of Mr. Hammam. And you didn't know who that was, 11 right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. He says to you at line 6: How are um Hazim, Abu Hazim and 14 the kids? And you say: Well, thank God, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. At line 16 Fawzi says to you: Please tell Abu Hazim that 17 Mr. Hammam Badrawi misses him very much, and he wishes he had 18 contacted you a lot sooner, but he did not know your new 19 address. He accidentally ran into the engineer and asked him 20 about your phone number. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Abu Hazim is Mr. Mustafa Hamza? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Hammam Badrawi you came to know as Atia? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10805 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And the engineer is Salah Hashim, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And so, in essence, what Fawzi is telling you here is that 4 he wanted you to tell Mustafa Hamza that Atia misses him and 5 that he got your telephone number from Salah Hashim? 6 A. In essence, he is telling me that he is putting it in a 7 language because what I understood at the time that he was 8 talking from an outside phone. In Egypt, you don't have public 9 phones in each corner. 10 You have to go to what they call a central office 11 where you make a payment and somebody puts you on the phone and 12 sometimes they listen to what you are saying, so he is just 13 putting in a language where he doesn't want those people who 14 are listening to understand what he has said. He is making it 15 like his, you know, Abu Hazim, for example, asking about the 16 relative or somebody. I understood. 17 Q. He was speaking in code, right? 18 A. He was trying to just not to let the other people know what 19 he was talking about; I mean, in Egypt. 20 Q. And when he said he did not know your new address, what did 21 you understand him to be saying? 22 A. He didn't know where he was, Abu Hazim. He didn't know 23 where Abu Hazim was. 24 Q. And displaying page 3 of Government Exhibit 1048, Fawzi 25 says to you: They said that Mr. Ahmed can connect you to them. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10806 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 It is important, Mr. Ahmed, that you give the number I am about 2 to give you to Abu Hazim. 3 What you understood is that he was telling you that 4 Salah Hashim told him that you could connect him to Abu Hazim? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And at line 8 Fawzi tells you that this is Mr. Ahmed 7 Sherif's number. Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And Ahmed Sherif was, as far as you understood, a person 10 who had a telephone that Atia could use to speak to you and Abu 11 Hazim, Mustafa Hamza, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Displaying page 4 from Government Exhibit 1048X, at line 14 14, Fawzi tells you: If this number does not connect for him, 15 he can call him at Dr. Ismail, his number, I will give you the 16 second number. 17 What he is telling you is if you can't get in touch 18 with Atia through Ahmed Sherif's number try Dr. Ismail's 19 number, right? 20 A. If I cannot in touch with -- yes. It was Hammam Badrawi. 21 He is telling me if I cannot get in touch -- I mean, if he 22 cannot get in touch with that number of Ahmed Sherif, I could 23 call the another number, which was Dr. Ismail. 24 Q. He gave you those phone numbers, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10807 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Those phone numbers were in Egypt? 2 A. They were in Egypt. 3 Q. And displaying page 5 from Government Exhibit 1048X, at 4 line 20 and 21 Fawzi says to you: It is essential that you 5 tell Abu Hazim to call Mr. Hammam Badrawi at Mr. Ahmed Sherif's 6 or Dr. Ismail. And you said yes, yes, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I have the Court's 9 permission to just step out for a moment to get something that 10 I forgot? Ms. Shellow-Lavine will remain with Ms. Stewart and 11 Ms. Stewart consents. 12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this time may I display 14 Government Exhibit 1050X in evidence? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation over your 17 telephone on January 17 of 2000? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And this is a call between yourself and Fawzi again, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And this is the first call that you had was on January 5, 22 right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So this is about 12 days later? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10808 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And displaying page 2, after you greet one another, Fawzi 2 says to you: Anyway, I wish you would really listen to me 3 carefully, because the time is almost over. And you said: 4 Okay. Please go ahead. 5 What you understood was that he was calling from a pay 6 phone? 7 A. Yes, from the central office. Because, you go there, you 8 pay in advance and they give you three minutes if you are in 9 Egypt. And once the three minutes are over, the call is cut 10 again and you have to go up to the window again and pay another 11 payment. Or if you have money to do it, and they will give you 12 another three minutes. This is what I understood when I was in 13 Egypt. 14 Q. At line 16 Fawzi says to you: Eh, Hammam Badrawi is 15 Mr. Alaa, eh and you says, Mr. Alaa. And he says yes, Alaa 16 Abdul Raziq. And you said yes? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In between these two calls, you tried to get in touch with 19 Mr. Abu Hazim, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Also told Rifa'i Taha about the calls, about the first call 22 that you had received from Fawzi, right? 23 A. I believe I told him, yes. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 25 Exhibit 1065X in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10809 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation that occurred 3 on March 26 of 2000? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Over your telephone? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And, again, it is a telephone conversation with you and 8 Fawzi? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And after the greetings he says: Why should I give you the 11 number? And you say: I will call you. I don't want to keep 12 you on the phone so it won't cost you much -- keep you long on 13 the phone so it won't cost you much. I will call you. I mean 14 I will. 15 What you're saying to him is that you're going to call 16 him back because it costs him money to call you on a public 17 telephone? 18 A. Yes. He was actually complaining, I think, you know, in 19 the previous call or the call before that, you know, they have 20 no money and this telephone -- I know it is expensive for 21 people in Egypt to call the United States. It will cost them 22 more than it will cost me here to call somebody in Egypt. I 23 said: Just give me your phone number, I will call you to save 24 you some money, yes. 25 Q. And then at line 7 he says to you: No, uh, the purpose of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10810 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 the call is to speak to Abu Yasir, or Abu Hazim. And then you 2 respond: But you didn't say so, you told me Abu Hazim. Abu 3 Yasir calls me all the -- as soon as Abu Yasir calls, I'll have 4 him call you. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so what happened here is that you didn't understand him 7 to want to talk to Abu Yasir from your initial calls, right? 8 A. No. I did not understand that he wanted to talk to Abu 9 Yasir. I understood that he wanted to talk to Abu Hazim, and I 10 was under the impression that I am not in contact with Abu 11 Hazim. I was in contact with Yunis. I didn't know that Abu 12 Hazim was talking to me. So I said Abu Yasir calls me all the 13 time. If you want to speak to him, I can do that. And when I 14 told Abu Yasir about that conversation between -- previous 15 conversation between me and Fawzi, it was just to inform him, 16 to get in touch with Abu Hazim and tell him that those people 17 want to talk to him. So I didn't know that I was talking to 18 Abu Hazim. 19 Q. But when you first spoke to Fawzi you sent an e-mail to 20 Yunis, right? 21 A. I sent an e-mail to Yunis and to Rifa'i Taha, yes, because 22 I didn't know -- I mean, I knew who Abu Hazim was, but I was 23 not -- I didn't know that I was in touch with him. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 25 Government Exhibit 1068X in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10811 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, the last call between you and Fawzi, which we 3 just discussed a moment ago, occurred on March 26 of 2000, 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And now this is a few days later on April 1 of 2000 over 7 your telephone and it is a conversation between Mustafa Hamza 8 and Hani? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Hani, it turns out, is Fawzi, right? 11 A. Yes, it is the same person. 12 Q. And when he originally contacted you he said that his name 13 was Fawzi? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And later, during this call, he says that his name is Hani? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When Mustafa Hamza gets on the phone he asks to speak to 18 brother Alaa at line 4. May I talk to brother Alaa, please. 19 You see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that's a reference to Atia, right? 22 A. This is reference to, yes, Hammam Badrawi. 23 Q. His full name is Alaa Abdel Raziq Atia? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. At line 6 he starts to say the full name, but gets cut off, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10812 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Alaa Ab -- the phone was handed to Hani, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Displaying page 2 from that transcript, at line 10 Hani 4 says: Um, anyway, let me introduce myself to you. Hamza says: 5 Go ahead. Hani says: I am Hani. And Hamza says: Ah. And 6 Hani then says: I was sent to you by the person you called the 7 other day, Mr. Alaa. And Hamza said: Oh, oh, yes, yes. Hani 8 says: He sent me to you and told me to return your call. 9 Anyway, I am Hani, and I am the one who contacted you, 10 Mr. Ahmed, and I used the name Fawzi. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What he is saying there to Mustafa Hamza is that he is the 13 person who called you and called himself Fawzi, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And just so we are clear, Mr. Ahmed is a reference to you 16 at line 17? 17 A. Yes. That's in reference to me, yes. 18 Q. And then he says: Yes, yes. And then Hani says: I am the 19 one who got the phone number from the engineer. 20 The engineer you understood to be Salah Hashim? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Displaying page 3 from Government Exhibit 1068X, at line 8 23 Hamza says to you: Mr. Alaa was trying for a long time to 24 contact Abu Yasir or Abu Hazim. And Mr. Alaa, again, is a 25 reference to Atia? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10813 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And Hamza says: Yes. And Hani says: I will talk openly 3 with you now, so later we will be on sure grounds. And Hamza 4 says: Yes. And Hani says: We had been in contact with the 5 engineer for a long time now, about 15 months ago. Hamza says 6 yes. And Hani says: And he is good to deal with. I am the 7 one who took Ahmed's phone number from him. 8 Again, he has been saying they have been talking for 9 the last 15 months to Salah Hashim and recently they got your 10 telephone number from Salah Hashim? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. At line 2 is Hani tells Mustafa Hamza: Now, Mr. Alaa is 13 very tight and needs money. Hamza says yes. And Hani says: 14 He is really very, very tight on money. He went to the many 15 people to no eh -- 16 It is your understanding that what he is saying is to 17 Mustafa Hamza, Atia needs money, can you please send him some? 18 A. I understand that he is talking about as what I said, at 19 this time I didn't know that he is talking about Atia as I know 20 it right now. He is saying that Alaa Abdel Raziq or Hammam 21 Badrawi needs money. 22 Q. Displaying page 4 from Government Exhibit 1068X, Mustafa 23 Hamza says to Hani: What? What are your needs exactly? And 24 at line 9 Hani responds: The most important thing now is -- he 25 is very good, but we need to have a direct contact with you, if SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10814 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 possible, through any other means, not the telephone, such as a 2 meeting or something. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what Hani is telling him is that they want to get 5 together with Abu Hazim face to face? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you understood that the reason why they wanted to get 8 together face to face was because they were concerned that the 9 telephones were wiretapped, right? 10 A. No. I took it differently. I took it that the reason that 11 they know that Mustafa Hamza is outside Egypt. I took it that 12 he wants to meet with him face to face. He wants to get 13 outside. He wants to meet outside of Egypt. Because there is 14 no way for Abu Hazim to go back to Egypt to meet face to face 15 with him. 16 Q. Let's look at page 5. At line 6 Hani says: How about the 17 contact? How was it going to be done? Hamza says: Regarding 18 the contact, I really don't know. Do you think the phone is 19 good, so to speak? And Hani says: I have told you that it is 20 preferable to find a different way for contact because we 21 really went through hell to find this way. We really suffered. 22 That's what he said, right? 23 A. Yes. He wants a different way. 24 Q. At page 6 Hani says: But do you know who this man is? Do 25 you know who Alaa is? Hani says: No, we do not know. No, we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10815 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 do not. But we can understand in the future by reading in 2 between the lines. Hani says: He is the one you used to 3 contact under the name Issa. Now do you know who he is or not 4 yet? Or by the name Fawzi, you, unintelligible, south at 5 Mr. Hamid's place, may God rest his soul, whose name is Osman. 6 And Hamza responds: Yes, but this is uh -- this is very 7 difficult to figure out. You are saying very difficult things, 8 and things are changing constantly, especially that it has been 9 a long time now, it is more than five years, huh. 10 What Hamza is telling Hani is he doesn't know exactly 11 who Atia is, but that's because names are changing and it has 12 been a long time since they have been in contact, right? 13 A. Yes. It is -- he doesn't know who he is. Things have been 14 changed. People talk to other people. He just basically said 15 he doesn't know who Atia is. 16 Q. At line 23 Hamza says: And we are going to try to let the 17 engineer know that he is to help you whenever he gets something 18 from us. And then Hani says: Okay. But he was absolutely 19 against mentioning him on the telephone. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that's because of a fear of wiretapping? 22 A. I'm sorry? 23 Q. That's because of a fear of wiretapping, right? 24 A. That's -- I don't know if it is because of the fear of the 25 wiretapping. I know that I called Salah Hashim and I asked him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10816 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 directly if he would give my number to those people, so I 2 really don't know if this is because of the fear of wiretapping 3 or not. It could be yes. 4 Q. You know that Salah Hashim was very, very upset that you 5 had called him and said that to him over the telephone, right? 6 A. And I understood his fear if I were in his place. I would 7 be shaking in my pants to that the Egyptians are going after 8 me. 9 Q. And his fear was that his phone was wiretapped, right? 10 A. Probably, yes. 11 Q. Displaying page 11 from Government Exhibit 1068X, at line 12 10 Hani says: That is regarding those difficult matters. If 13 it is something important, you can talk the normal way. And 14 Hamza says: Okay. Got willing. Next time we will try to talk 15 about the basics. Hani says: I really hope so because it is 16 difficult for him to move around. And Hamza says: I hope the 17 lord facilitates things, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the him who was having difficulty moving around you 20 understood to be Atia? 21 A. I understood, yes, him to be Alaa Abdel Raziq. 22 Q. So at the end of this call Mustafa Hamza tells Hani -- 23 because that was the first time that they had spoken, right? 24 A. I think it is, yes, it was the first time. 25 Q. Mustafa Hamza tells him: Next time we will cover the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10817 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 basics, right? 2 A. Yes, next time they are going to talk more, yes. 3 Q. So the first call was just sort of let's get introduced to 4 one another and then we will have a more substantial 5 conversation next time we speak? 6 A. Yes. He wants to know who those people are because if you 7 look at the first call, first contact between me and Hani or 8 Fawzi was in January. And all this month he did not know who 9 those people are and he didn't want to talk to them. And then 10 when they start begging more and if you go back to this 11 conversation, the previous conversation, you will see that 12 there was -- that they are tied, they are this, they are that. 13 So it was when he -- on the first call he didn't know who he is 14 talking to. That's why he was arranging for another call. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 16 Exhibit 1070X in evidence? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, the last call that we just looked at, 1068X in 19 evidence, was on April 1 of 2000, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And this call is 11 days later, on April 11 of 2000, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And, again, Mustafa Hamza called you and then you called 24 over to Egypt to connect him with Hani? 25 A. Yes. Yunis called and I did connect him, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10818 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. As we were talking a few moments ago, you understood that 2 Salah Hashim was angry with you because you had spoken over his 3 telephone about the fact that he had given your telephone 4 number to Hani, right? 5 A. Repeat this again. I'm sorry. 6 Q. I'll try. 7 Salah Hashim was angry with you because you had said 8 to Salah Hashim on Salah Hashim's telephone, did you give my 9 telephone number to Hani? 10 A. Yes. I wanted to know who those people are. They said 11 they got the number from Salah Hashim, so I asked Salah Hashim 12 to ask if he gave my number to anybody. 13 Q. Displaying page 2 from Government Exhibit 1070X, at the 14 very bottom Hani is speaking with Mustafa Hamza and Hani says: 15 May the peace, mercy and blessings of God be upon you, too. 16 Sorry, Mr. Hamid was not able to come. He told me the 17 following to pass on to you. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And Mr. Hamid is Atia? 20 A. This is one of his names, yes, that he was using, yes. 21 Q. Displaying page 3, Mustafa Hamza says: Please go ahead. 22 And Hani says: First, the reason why he did not come is he 23 called the engineer and found him very upset. 24 The engineer is Salah Hashim, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10819 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. He told Hamid that those guys summoned him to go to the 2 ministry. What he is saying is he told Atia that the 3 government summoned Salah Hashim to come and talk to them? 4 A. He said those guys mean the state security people called 5 him to go to the state security ministry, yes. 6 Q. And he states to Mustafa Hamza, they asked him, they being 7 the state security asked Salah Hashim who are those people who 8 want to contact Ahmed of America. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So what he is saying is that state security was asking 11 Salah Hashim, who is trying to get in touch with you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And reading again at line 5 Hani continues and says: Of 14 course, he denied that he has knowledge of that, and said that 15 his telephone, as well as Muntasir's, are known to be 16 monitored. He also told me that Ahmed contacted him twice at 17 his residence, and a third time on Muntasir's line. He speaks 18 openly over the phone. This is causing him to be very upset. 19 And he asked us to stop reaching him for now unless it is 20 extremely necessary. 21 That's what he said to Mustafa Hamza? 22 A. Yes. I called him and I spoke to him and I spoke to 23 Muntasir. I thought there was nothing to it. 24 Q. And here he is saying: Don't have this contact over by 25 telephone anymore, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10820 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Here he is upset that, you know, I did that. 2 Q. And that's because it brought the attention -- brought him 3 to the attention of the state security, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Displaying page 8 from Government Exhibit 1070X, it is a 6 continuation of the call between Hani and Mustafa Hamza. At 7 line 1 Hani says: Yeah, as usual, but you can tell him, for 8 instance, this is Mr. Ali, because he is a teacher, tell him 9 Mr. Ali. And Hamza says: Do I tell him to inform either Hani 10 or Hamid or -- and Hani says: Yeah, tell him to inform Hani or 11 Hamid. Yes. All the names I told you about are noms de 12 guerre. They don't know the other names, okay? Mustafa Hamza 13 says um. 14 What Hamza is telling him when he calls asking for 15 Atia, he should say, Mustafa Hamza should say, this is Mr. Ali, 16 and that he should refer to the names that he knows, right, 17 because they are code names, right? 18 A. That's what he says, noms de guerre, yes. 19 Q. At line 22 Hani tells Mustafa Hamza: Regarding the 20 engineer -- that's Salah Hashim, right? 21 A. I'm sorry? The engineer, yes, that's Salah Hashim, yes. 22 Q. He is telling you that our messenger is the engineer named 23 Thabit. He is known to him by the name Thabit, okay? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What that means is that the person between Atia and Hani SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10821 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 and Salah Hashim is a person named Thabit? 2 A. Yes. They are not in direct contact with Salah Hashim. 3 Q. Hani tells Mr. Mustafa Hamza, we are naming the same 4 engineer, Abu Nadhara, okay? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What that means is that Hani and Atia refer to Salah Hashim 7 as Abu Nadhara, right? 8 A. Yes. The one with glasses, yes. 9 Q. Displaying page 9 from Government Exhibit 1070X Hani says: 10 By the way, Abu Nadhara is asking Mr. Hamid frequently for 11 reports which have to do with evaluating the past. He is 12 maneuvering with him, and keeps delaying this matter as much as 13 possible. So what is your opinion? He did not give him 14 anything yet. Abu Nadhara sent Hamid a letter from Abu Yasir 15 through Muntasir, about Salih Al-Asmar. 16 What Hani is telling Mr. Abu Hamza is Mr. Salah Hashim 17 sent Atia a letter from Rifa'i Taha through Muntasir Al-Zayyat? 18 A. Let me read this, please. 19 Yes. He said he is telling him, if we go back to some 20 of the calls, there is a conversation between Salah Hashim and 21 Abu Yasir, and they are talking about a letter, a big letter, 22 19-pages letter that is explaining his commitment to the peace 23 initiative. And it is just, you know, telling them to use him 24 as -- to be the bad boy, using, you know, as a tough guy. So 25 he is talking about that letter that was sent to Muntasir and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10822 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Muntasir give to Salah Hashim and Salah Hashim give to those 2 people, to Atia's people to read. So he is referring to that 3 letter. 4 Q. Did you see that letter? 5 A. No. I heard about it on the phone. There is conversation 6 between Salah Hashim and Abu Yasir about that. 7 Q. Displaying the next page, page 10 of Government Exhibit 8 1070X, at line 22 Hamza states: Regarding the engineer, I need 9 to be sure of this, because there is a lot of confusion. Are 10 you certain that the engineer is the one who gave you the 11 brother's telephone number, correct? And Hani says: Mm, yes, 12 of course. And Hamza says: Am I right? Carrying over to the 13 next page Hani says: Yes, of course. And Hamza says: If this 14 is the case, didn't he know that the brother can talk or call 15 or something? What was on his mind when he gave the phone 16 number? This problem arose and they summoned him. And Hani 17 says: According to confirmed news, he has, last week he 18 went -- and Hamza says: I understand. We all know that. It 19 did not occur to him when he took the telephone number that all 20 the telephones of all parties, the brother you spoke to, or the 21 engineer himself, are all monitored? All of them are 22 monitored, ah? Hani says: So what can we do? It would be 23 good if you come up with another solution. 24 Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani you have to be careful 25 about talking over the telephones, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10823 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. He is telling him all those telephones are monitored 2 by Egyptian security agency. And you know, for a person like 3 Salah Hashim to be summoned by the ministry, it is a bad thing, 4 yes. It is enough to put the fear in anybody's heart. So he 5 is just telling them, yes, all those phones are monitored, and 6 he doesn't want problems for them to arise. 7 Q. Again, this is the second time that Mustafa Hamza and Hani 8 had spoken over your telephone, this call? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Displaying the next page, page 12, at line 2 Hamza says: 11 It is very difficult to eh -- I want you to get me some 12 information from him, him being Atia, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. When was the last time he spoke to the people outside, with 15 who did he talk, when, ah, and what was the content of their 16 conversation. 17 The people outside were the people, the Islamic Group 18 leaders who are outside of Egypt, right? 19 A. The people outside of Egypt, yes. He still doesn't know 20 who Atia is. He doesn't know who he used to be in contact with 21 him or anything. The whole thing is just vague to him. 22 Q. But he clearly knows that Atia is someone from the Islamic 23 Group, right? 24 A. According to this, he is questioning where they get my 25 telephone number from. So he is still questioning -- he has SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10824 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 questions asking. I am not sure if he knows that those people 2 are from the Islamic Group or not. He has so many questions. 3 Q. It is fair to say, Mr. Sattar, that he is suspicious of who 4 Atia is? He is interested to try to find out, right, because 5 maybe he is concerned? 6 A. He is suspicious, yes. 7 Q. And Hani says at line 6: Do you want to verify with him or 8 what? What is it exactly that you want to verify. And Hamza 9 says: We want to verify everything, of course, because, as I 10 told you, there is a problem, okay? And Hani says: Okay, 11 sure. I really do not know what to tell you, mm, and Hamza 12 says: Well, it is over, but think he can visualize how it is. 13 I believe. And Hani says: I know it, I know it. Okay, fine. 14 And Hamza says: This will not solve a problem, the problem 15 remains? Huh. Then there is some mixed talking. 16 Then Hamza says at line 15: I don't understand. You 17 mean about the before is not enough or what? And then Hamza 18 says: No, no, nothing is enough. Even if we talk to him 19 directly, nothing is enough, you know? There is a problem, 20 lack of contact for a long time creates a problem. Like this 21 man who was separated from his friend for a while, he returns 22 wearing a wiretap. You understand how things are eh. And Hani 23 says: Yeah, I see. 24 What Hamza is telling Hani is they need to check out 25 who is trying to get in touch with him because maybe he is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10825 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 cooperating with the government, right? 2 A. That's specifically what he is saying, yes. 3 Q. Then on the next page, page 13 of Government Exhibit 1070X, 4 at line 4 Mustafa Hamza says: Every now and when we can take 5 some measures to restore security a bit. Hani says: Mm. 6 Hamza tells, telephones are a problem. They are the cause of a 7 big problem. 8 What you understood him to be saying is that the 9 phones are monitored and so we can't talk openly over the 10 telephone, right? 11 A. Yes. That's what he is saying. 12 Q. And it continues. Hani saying: Yeah, by God they are, mm, 13 what about the solution I told you about? And Hamza says: The 14 original -- simultaneously, the original visualizing, some 15 mixed talk, okay, fine, let me explain it to you. Hani says: 16 Mm. Hamza says: In principle, the money problem can be 17 partially solved. For example, if you give us a name. Mm, 18 says Hani. Hamza says: Of a trustworthy person, it will 19 partially solve the problem to some extent, because we don't 20 know with whom we are dealing, how, and we are still -- then 21 Hani interrupts him and says: Okay, fine. You can send it to 22 this doctor I told you about. 23 What Hamza and Hani are talking about is that Hamza 24 wants to send the money, and they need someone who is trusted 25 who can receive the money, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10826 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Farther along in the same conversation at page 18 of 3 Government Exhibit 1070X Hamza says: You call in order to 4 explain things to us. Besides, there is, eh, there is an 5 important point. We will need eh. This is an exception. Hani 6 says: Mm. Hamza says: We might talk to him openly in certain 7 matters. 8 And when he is saying talk openly, Mr. Sattar, what he 9 meanies is without talking in code, right? 10 A. No. I believe talking on the phone openly. There is 11 certain things that he can say on the phone and there are 12 certain things that he cannot say on the phone because this 13 will -- as he explained before, that was his fear. This is 14 what I understood from what he is saying. 15 Q. Hamza continues on and says: For example, I asked you 16 earlier if you know someone. You answered, "I can't say." And 17 Hamza tells Hani: This is not acceptable to me. I can't say. 18 It means that you are shutting the doors of insight in our 19 faces. Explain to him that the man wants to discuss candidly a 20 few things with you regarding the past in order to stand on 21 solid ground regarding communications. And Hani says: Yes, 22 sir, yes, sir, mm. And Hamza says: The more he brings up 23 stuff between him and us, between him and his friends who he 24 used to be with. Hani says: Mm. Hamza says: Do you 25 understand? And Hani says: Yeah. And Hamza says: The, the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10827 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 more sure -- of course. 2 And Hamza continues at line 22: Tell him that the 3 more he refers to things that would remind us of very specific 4 matters which are difficult to say during investigations. 5 Continuing on page 19 Hani says: Yes, yes, yes. Hamza says: 6 Do you understand? Hani says: Yes, I see. Hamza says: Some 7 things can be mentioned in investigation. He continues: But 8 some things are private and specific. The brother wouldn't 9 need to say them in investigation. Hani says: Yeah, I do 10 understand what you are trying to say. Hamza says: Yeah. 11 Explain this point to him. Tell him the man wants to discuss 12 things with you. And if things are going in a positive 13 direction he will be very understanding. This is due to the 14 sensitivity of the situation. 15 What's going on at this point of the conversation, 16 Mr. Sattar, is that Hamza is telling Hani that he needs Atia to 17 talk with him about the past so that Atia -- so that Mustafa 18 Hamza understands that Atia is not compromised, right? 19 A. No. He is still at this point don't know who Atia is, and 20 he is asking questions. And he wants to know who this man is. 21 He is saying things that he wants to ask about the past. He is 22 telling him to give him specific things so he can understand 23 who this man is and to investigate it with other people that 24 used to be in touch with him. So to get an idea who this man 25 is. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10828 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Right. Who he is, who his friends were, who his contacts 2 were. 3 A. He wants to know -- basically, until this moment, he 4 doesn't know who Atia is. So he is just trying to find out 5 more about him and try to corroborate this with other people 6 who were in touch with him. When he asked him, who was in 7 touch with you, he is not giving him an answer. That's what he 8 wanted to know. 9 Q. He is basically trying to do a background check? 10 A. Yes, he wants to do a background check and see who he is. 11 THE COURT: We have been going for about an hour. Why 12 don't we take a stretch break. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, if you want to take the 14 morning break, we can do that. 15 THE COURT: Fine. 16 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for ten minutes. 17 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please 18 don't talk about the case at all. Please always remember to 19 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence and 20 I have instructed you on the law. 21 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 22 the jury room. 23 (Jury not present) 24 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. The jurors had 25 begun to talk and stretch. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10829 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 See you shortly. 2 (Recess) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10830 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 CF5SAT2 Sattar - cross 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 3 Mr. Morvillo? 4 MR. MORVILLO: Do you want me back at the lectern, 5 Judge? 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 9 are still under oath. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 13 BY MR. MORVILLO: 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, just to reorient ourselves we were discussing 15 when we broke Government Exhibit 1070X, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That is the second telephone conversation between Mustafa 18 Hamza and Hani, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I continue displaying 21 pages from this exhibit? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 Q. Displaying page 25 from Government Exhibit 1070X, at line 24 1, Mustafa Hamza says to Hani: I think that now, somehow, the 25 eyes are on you at your side, this can create a problem, but we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10831 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 are not responsible for this problem. 2 What Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani is that the 3 government is watching Hani and Atia? 4 A. The Egyptian government, yes. 5 Q. And he continues: To be on the safe side, we need the 6 brother who talks to us to have some kind of affirmation at the 7 beginning of the conversation, through which we know that 8 things are normal for Ismail, Khalaf, Ahmed and even yourself. 9 We must agree on something to be said at the beginning of the 10 conversation that would indicate that all is normal. 11 And he continues at line 9: Or, the other way around, 12 unintelligible, maybe you have a problem and the people are, 13 unintelligible. 14 What Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani here is that when 15 the next time they speak, at the beginning of the conversation, 16 they should exchange a few words, precise words so that they 17 know that it's okay to talk on the telephone, right? 18 A. Yeah. Nothing happening to, to them; yes, everything is 19 all right with them. 20 Q. And Hani says simultaneously to Hamza: Can you tell me, 21 you tell me if there is anything, you tell. 22 Hamza says: Well, I usually, regarding our brothers, 23 those brothers, Ismail and so are middlemen, there are no talks 24 between us. 25 And Hani says: Yeah. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10832 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 And Hamza says: The important people are you and -- 2 Meaning Hani, right? 3 And then he continues: Initially -- 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't -- 5 Q. At line 168 Hamza says the important -- 6 THE COURT: There was a question, but then you 7 continued without an answer. 8 MR. MORVILLO: I'm sorry. 9 Q. At line 16, Mr. Sattar, Mustafa Hamza says: The important 10 people are you-- 11 And the "you" is Hani, right? 12 A. You; it's Hani and -- 13 Q. Atia? 14 A. These people. I mean, Atia, the people who connect on the 15 phones and who they are just middlemen, they have nothing to do 16 with anything. 17 Q. And Mustafa Hamza says: Initially it is for you for now, 18 we'll arrange things with Hamid when we speak with him. 19 Hamid is Atia, right? 20 A. Yes, that's one of his name, the name that he has been 21 using, yes. 22 Q. And so, what Mustafa Hamza is telling him is the code 23 language that we are going to work out now is just for you, 24 Hani. 25 A. The what language? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10833 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. The Code language. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That we are going to work out just for now is just for you, 4 Hani, and we'll arrange other language when we speak with 5 Hamid? 6 A. Probably. I'm not, you know -- you know, this whole thing 7 is very confusing so, just go this way, yes. 8 Q. Let's continue reading the transcript then. At line 21 9 Hamza says: Usually when we talk we say, "Peace be upon you," 10 huh? 11 And Hani says: Mmm, okay. 12 And Hamza says: And you say, "Peace be upon you too, 13 Mister," huh? 14 And then Hani says: Okay, yes. 15 Now, turn to the next page, which is page 26 of 16 Government Exhibit 1070X, Hamza says: Look, any change of 17 these words will cause a problem. Huh? 18 And Hani says: Okay. 19 And Hamza says: For example, if you respond, "Peace 20 be upon you too," without saying, "Mister" it means that the 21 conversation will not take place. Do not forget these things, 22 huh? 23 So what Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani, Mr. Sattar, is 24 that next time they talk, if Hani does not say, in response to 25 peace be upon you, he does not say peace be upon you too, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10834 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 mister, it means that they will not talk because it is not safe 2 to talk for some reason? 3 A. Yes, that's what he is saying. 4 Q. And then Hani says: Okay, "Peace be upon you too, Mister." 5 is this only for me only, or for the three others? 6 And Mustafa Hamza says: No, no, it is only for you. 7 The others are middlemen; they say, "Ham..." -- "Hani is 8 present" and that's all. We don't need anything from him to 9 start with. 10 And Hani says: Okay. Okay. 11 Then Hamza says: Something, unintelligible. Let me 12 finish, another point. I can ask you, for instance, "how are 13 you, how are things with you," ha? 14 And Hani says: Ha, ha. 15 Hamza says: You answer, "I am fine, thanks be to 16 God." 17 And then at line 16 Hani responds: I am fine, thanks 18 be to God. 19 And says something unintelligible. At line 19 Hamza 20 says: I am fine, thanks be to God. If you respond, "Thanks be 21 to God" without saying, "I am fine," it will be a problem. 22 Hani says: Mmm. 23 And Hamza says: If you say, "Fine, thanks be to God," 24 it is also a problem, you understand? If you say "I am fine" 25 without "Thanks be to God" it is also a problem. Do you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10835 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 understand? 2 And so, what they're discussing here is that when they 3 have a conversation at the beginning of a telephone 4 conversation, there are certain words that need to be said to 5 one another precisely as they've just directed so that both 6 parties understand that it's okay to talk, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Displaying page 27 of Government Exhibit 1070X, at line 17 9 Hamza says: That should be explained to your brother as well, 10 huh? Tell him that the error that occurred in the contact with 11 America, or that might somehow cause you a problem. There is a 12 follow up on everything, we try to rectify as much as we can, 13 may the Lord grant us all that's well, God willing. 14 When Hamza is referring to your brother, what he is 15 referring to is Atia, right? 16 A. Yes. Hani's brother, yes. 17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 18 at this point Government Exhibit 1072X? 19 THE COURT: Yes. In evidence? 20 MR. MORVILLO: In evidence, yes. 21 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, the first call between Mustafa Hamza and 22 Hani was on April 1st, that one was Government Exhibit 1068; 23 then there was a call between Mustafa Hamza and Hani on April 24 11th, and that's Government Exhibit 1070; and then there was a 25 third call between them on April 18th, right, and that's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10836 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Government Exhibit 1072X? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you see here I'm displaying the first page of the 4 transcript and this is, again, a telephone conversation between 5 yourself, Mustafa Hamza, Hani, Thabit, now Thabit is the 6 go-between between Salah Hashim and Hani, right? 7 A. Yes, this is what they said in the previous conversation, 8 yes. 9 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 (Counsel conferring) 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, there was a limiting 14 instruction that went along with this telephone conversation in 15 that is that it's offered with respect to Counts Two and Three 16 only. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 MR. MORVILLO: May I have a moment, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 (Pause) 21 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, during this conversation on April 18th of 22 2000, Mustafa Hamza spoke with Hani again, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And that conversation starts on page 4 of the transcript; 25 previously Mustafa Hamza had been speaking to an unidentified SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10837 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 male. And at line 9 Hani gets on the telephone and they 2 exchange greetings and Hani gets it wrong, right? At line 13 3 Hani says: Well, thanks be to God. 4 And Hamza says: I am well, and thanks be to God, huh? 5 And Hani says: Well, thanks be to God. 6 And Hamza says to him: No, you should say, I am well 7 and thanks be to God. But that's no problem because it is the 8 first time. 9 Now, this is a reference back to the prior 10 conversation that they had where Hamza and Mustafa -- where 11 Mustafa and Hani are indicating how it is safe to talk? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And Hani responds to Mustafa Hamza here by saying: Hi, ha, 14 okay, I am well and thanks be to God. 15 And Hamza says: How is everything with you? 16 And Hani says: Yes, okay. 17 And in this call Hani tells Mustafa Hamza that he has 18 a message from Atia for Mustafa Hamza, right? 19 A. I mean I don't see -- it could be, yes. 20 Q. Displaying page 9 from Government Exhibit 1072X, at line 12 21 right here Hani says: Number seven, he is asking, if he became 22 in a tight spot so could he contact Ahmed and tell him what we 23 need? Is his telephone safe? 24 Now, this is Hani asking Mustafa Hamza if your 25 telephone is safe, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10838 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And Hamza pauses and then says: I already told you last 3 time, that means you did not tell him, because if you did, you 4 would have known the answer without anyone... you did not 5 relate the talking to him in the right way. 6 And Hani responds: Who? 7 And Hamza says: You did not relate the things I told 8 you to tell him last time. I told you that all the phones are 9 bad. 10 And Hani says: Yes, sir, okay, I did tell him. 11 And Hamza says: What is this? You were supposed to 12 tell him everything I told you. I told you to explain to him 13 that you may face a problem soon which will be caused by 14 messing with the phones. 15 And then, continuing on the next page Hani says: I 16 told him everything, by God. Okay, fine. 17 Then Hamza continues: Why are you asking me this 18 question then? This question is totally uncalled for. Go 19 ahead. Continue. 20 Hamza is mad at Hani here, right? 21 A. He is telling him, you know, that the part you read in the 22 previous conversation, he was telling him the phones are bad, 23 you know, so he is just, you know, telling him that he did not 24 understand, you know, what I said. 25 So I don't know if he is mad or not mad. He is just, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10839 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 you know, telling him that you did not say what I told you, 2 what I told you to say. 3 Q. Right. Because what happens is Atia asks Hani to ask 4 Mustafa Hamza is it okay to call Ahmed -- meaning you -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And Mustafa Hamza is annoyed because he told Hani to tell 7 Atia previously all the phones are bad? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Displaying page 12 from Government Exhibit 1072X, Hani 10 gives Mustafa Hamza another telephone number that he can use to 11 contact people and Hamza says: Okay. 12 And that's at line 9 and 10. And then at line 11 Hani 13 says: You tell him I am Dr. Ahmad from Qena, since one of his 14 colleagues is in Qena, okay, who is the partner of Dr. Mohammed 15 Abu Ahmad in the pharmacy. 16 Hamza says: What? 17 Hani says: You tell him I am Dr. Ahmad. 18 And Hamza says: Ahmad. 19 And Hani says: We'll call him so you could. 20 And what they're talking about here is when Mustafa 21 Hamza calls the telephone number he shouldn't say that he is 22 Abu Hazim or Mustafa Hamza, he should say it is Dr. Ahmad? 23 A. He is giving him another telephone number with other people 24 and, yes, that is basically what he is saying. 25 Q. Now, further on in this conversation Mustafa Hamza and Hani SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10840 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 continue to talk about how to have a, to converse over the 2 telephone and how to send messages to one another that the 3 telephone line is safe to speak on, right? 4 A. I don't have the conversation in front of me. 5 Q. Displaying page 20 of Government Exhibit 1072X, at line 2 6 Mustafa Hamza says: It is even better to find a number on 7 which we could contact him and we could talk to him about those 8 vague matters, huh? 9 Then Hani says: So the second point is that the 10 sentence is what? 11 And Hamza says: I am going to dictate it for you now. 12 And that's line 7, he says let me dictate it now. And 13 Hani says: Listen to me, listen. Onto his phone, his regular 14 phone number at home. 15 And Hamza says: Yes, on the regular calls. It is 16 important to mention to us this sentence. 17 And Hani says: Okay, fine. 18 And Hamza says: He has to utter it in full, each 19 word, word by word, huh? 20 And Hani says: Okay, but say it slowly. 21 Hamza says: It is a simple one. It is four to five 22 words, it is not going to be a problem, easy, huh? Okay? 23 And at line 18 he says: Okay? Did you understand the 24 idea? The idea is that first you find a telephone number where 25 he could wait for us in a specific time, this is better, and it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10841 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 is going to solve us a big problem, if God is willing. 2 And then he continues at line 22: If he can't do that 3 and the situation does not permit -- 4 Continuing on the next page Hamza says: The second 5 option is to use this sentence, which will give indications 6 that the line is good. You know, and let's hope for the best, 7 okay? 8 And so, again, what they're talking about is when they 9 speak on the phone they have to use this sentence that Mustafa 10 Hamza is about to give to Hani and that will be an indication 11 that the telephone line is okay to speak on? 12 A. This is what they are saying or what Yunis is saying there, 13 yes. 14 Q. And Hamza says at line 5: Write down the following 15 sentence. 16 And at line 7 he says: The upper Egyptians will soon 17 go on the internet. 18 And Hani says: One more time, please, from the 19 beginning. 20 And Hamza says: The upper Egyptians soon will go on 21 the internet... 22 And Hani says: Okay, fine. 23 And Hamza says: That is all, huh? 24 And Hani says: Okay. 25 Did I read that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10842 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, you did. 2 Q. Now, later in the telephone call on page 25 at line 14 here 3 Mustafa Hamza says: Okay, good, no problem. This is a summary 4 of what we are thinking about. We could now be able to send 5 about two thousand dollars. Eh... the names are not a 6 matter... we are going to send to the man but if there is a 7 problem concerning him... give us a man without... dealing in 8 the specific things, we need a man without any problems around 9 his name. Meaning, he does not care from where it 10 (unintelligible)... by whose name. I mean I will tell you the 11 name of the sender is so and so. 12 And then at line 23 he continues, Mustafa Hamza 13 continues and says: In the end, we will avoid any problems 14 from both sides, for him, or for us. You should give us a name 15 of a person whose name will not create any problems when it 16 comes to receiving the money. 17 And so, what Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani here is 18 that is he going to send $2,000 to Hani and Atia to another 19 person and he wants to make sure that the person he is sending 20 the money to doesn't have any problems with the government, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. At page 27 of Government Exhibit 1072X, starting at line 3 24 Mustafa Hamza says: It must be it must be an agreement between 25 us and Abu Nadhara, do you understand? So if anyone else SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10843 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 besides myself talks to you, Abu Nadhara has to be the main 2 part of the matter, okay? For example, if someone calls from 3 you outside -- 4 And he continues at line 8: Anyone -- 5 Hani says: Yes. 6 Hamza says: Anyone, no matter who he is, okay? 7 And Hamza continues: For example, he would tell you, 8 "by God, we want, tell your man that we want to do something or 9 so." That is considered nothing and it has no value, huh? 10 Okay? 11 And then Hani says, at line 15: What is it going to 12 be of substance? 13 A. When is? 14 Q. And Hamza says: It is considered of substance only if it 15 is coming from me directly, or through Abu Nadhara. Other than 16 that, do not accept any word from anyone, no matter who he is. 17 Any other person's words are not acceptable. 18 What Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani to tell Atia is 19 that Atia should not deal with anyone from the Islamic Group 20 other than Mustafa Hamza, right? 21 A. Other than Mustafa Hamza and Salah Hashim. He says, you 22 know, it is -- don't, you know, listen to anybody except Salah 23 Hashim and Mustafa Hamza. 24 Q. Right. He is saying you take orders from me, right? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10844 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You take orders from me and not from anyone else? 2 A. I'm not sure this is saying, you know, take orders, he 3 says -- 4 Q. Let's look at line 12 and we can talk about that. 5 It says: For example, he would tell you -- 6 And the "he" is the someone who is calling who is not 7 Mustafa Hamza -- 8 "By God! We want, tell your man that we want to do 9 something or so." That is considered nothing and it has no 10 value, huh? 11 Line 16: It is considered of substance only if it is 12 coming from me directly. Do not accept any word from anyone, 13 no matter who he is. 14 A. He is telling him don't accept anything from anyone except 15 him and Salah Hashim. 16 Q. And he repeats this advice on the next page, which is page 17 28 of Government Exhibit 1072X, starting at line 6, Hamza says: 18 Okay, give me some... I tell you, it is difficult on me too. 19 It is not easy for me. It is very important to me that 20 Mr. Hamid comes and understands that. Tell him these matters 21 are extremely sensitive now. Tell him if anyone from outside 22 the specified circle, no matter who he is, and my words are 23 clear, I am saying anyone who talks to him from outside the 24 circle, no matter who he is, he is not to listen to him. Do 25 you understand? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10845 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 And Hani says: Yes, sir. 2 Hamza says: For example, someone comes and says to 3 you, I am going to send you money, and you could do things, and 4 so. Tell him... tell him eh... we don't, I don't take orders 5 from anyone. Do you understand? 6 And Hani says: Yes, I do, very much so. 7 Mustafa Hamza is continuing to tell Hani here at this 8 point of the conversation you only talk to me and Abu Nadhara, 9 right? 10 A. Yes. And Salah Hashim, yes. 11 Q. Salah Hashim. 12 And Salah Hashim and Abu Nadhara are the same person? 13 A. He is Abu Nadhara, yes. 14 Q. And displaying page 29 of Government Exhibit 1072X, he 15 continues to talk about this subject, right, and he says, from 16 line 9 Hamza says: I shall give you an example. A Sheikh so 17 and so, one of the Sheikh outside, Sheikh so and so, he tells 18 you, here is the situation, the brothers... the 19 circumstances... and we will send you something and we want you 20 to do things... you tell him, frankly, we don't accept what you 21 say, huh? 22 That's the same subject matter they're talking about, 23 right? 24 A. Yes. 25 If I may add, he is just basically, you know, telling SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10846 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 him to find the line where the group is at, going at. 2 Q. He is telling him you are not to listen to anyone else from 3 the Islamic Group who talks to you, right? 4 A. No one else beside him and -- 5 Q. Salah Hashim? 6 A. Salah Hashim, yes. 7 Q. Now, there came a time when Mustafa Hamza and Atia actually 8 finally spoke, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that was over your telephone as well? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 13 Exhibit 1075X, in evidence? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. MORVILLO: And, your Honor, this has the same 16 limiting instruction as previously. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 Q. This is a conversation on April 24th? 19 THE COURT: And ladies and gentlemen, you are to 20 follow the same limiting instruction. It is admitted only with 21 respect to Counts Two and Three. 22 All right, go ahead. 23 Q. And just so we orient ourselves here, Mr. Sattar, the prior 24 conversation was on April 18th of 2000? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10847 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And now this one is a few days later on April 24th of 2000, 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And, again, what happened here is that Mustafa Hamza called 5 you, you spoke to Mustafa Hamza, and then you called Egypt and 6 you connected in Hani, Dr. Ismail and Atia, all of whom were 7 together? 8 A. Yes. Yunis called and I connected him on three-way calling 9 to Hani, Dr. Ismail. 10 Q. And Dr. Ismail was the person who was receiving the money, 11 right? 12 A. Dr. Ismail actually, he is the one where the phone is. I 13 wasn't -- my understanding that was his apartment where they 14 were calling. 15 Q. Did you know where the apartment was? 16 A. No. 17 Q. It was in Egypt but you didn't know where? 18 A. It was in Egypt. I don't know where it was exactly but, 19 you know, I know it was in Egypt. 20 Q. Was it in Cairo? 21 A. No, it was in a different -- a different city. 22 Q. Do you know what city? Do you know which city? 23 A. From what I -- I -- I think it is in, they are talking 24 there about Salah Hashim so I could, you know, I could make up 25 things, you know, that it is in the same city where Salah SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10848 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Hashim is. 2 Q. Which is in Suhaj? 3 A. Suhaj, yes. 4 But they never actually told me, or, you know, said 5 where it is. 6 Q. And sometimes Salah Hashim is referred to as the Engineer 7 of Suhaj, correct? 8 A. Yes, so that's why I -- that was my assumption so there is 9 nothing concrete, you know, that I can say, yes, it was that 10 city or this city. 11 Q. You couldn't tell by the area code that you were dialing or 12 anything like that? 13 A. No. I am from Cairo so I really don't know much about 14 other parts of Egypt. 15 Q. Now, displaying page 7 of Government Exhibit 1075X, this is 16 where Atia and Mustafa Hamza are speaking. And starting at 17 line 11 Mustafa Hamza says: But the phones are, eh, I am 18 talking to you because the phones are not, eh... there is a 19 problem, of course, you know. At the beginning, it was a 20 connection with a certain line. Anyway, I am apprehensive, I 21 am a little apprehensive and I want you to take care of that. 22 And Atia responds: Regarding our situation, we don't 23 have any problems because, uh, we call from the street and -- 24 And then Mustafa Hamza responds saying: The problem 25 is that the number was given to a brother of ours over the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10849 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 phone. I mean, I am apprehensive. 2 What they're talking about here is, again, a reference 3 back to the fact that Salah Hashim gave Hani your telephone 4 number and then you called Salah Hashim and asked him if they 5 did that, right? 6 A. I'm not quite sure what they're talking about here exactly, 7 whose telephone number, it is a little -- let me just take a 8 look at it. 9 I am not sure if the brother here is Salah Hashim or 10 me or somebody else. I'm not quite sure, you know, who they 11 are referring -- who he is here referring to exactly here to. 12 Q. But the sentiment that is he trying to convey is that there 13 is a problem because they, the state security spoke to Salah 14 Hashim and they're concerned about the telephones and so we 15 should try to find another way to talk, right? 16 A. No. He is emphasizing that there is problems as what he 17 said before and that there is a problem with the phones. 18 Q. At line 20 Mustafa Hamza continues and says: But apply 19 caution and we will try to find a way out from the circle where 20 the phone calls were made. 21 And that circle is a reference to the telephones that 22 were used to initially get in touch with Atia and Mustafa 23 Hamza, right? 24 He continues -- 25 A. I am not, you know, sure. You know, he just wants to get SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10850 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 out of phones, talking on the phones. That's what he -- he 2 doesn't like, you know, the phone thing as what he said before. 3 Q. Right, but what he is saying is that, in particular, the 4 phones that we are speaking over these days I'm not comfortable 5 with, we should try to find other telephones. Right? 6 A. I'm not sure if he is saying that. 7 Q. Well, he continues and at line 22 he says: It will be good 8 if God grants us find a way to get out of it, that will be much 9 better, God willing. Because I am not at ease concerning all 10 those telephone numbers that were given out during the previous 11 calls, huh? 12 And at line 26 Atia responds: But there is a 13 possibility that the phone numbers, at the beginning, were 14 written in a certain way we had formerly agreed upon. 15 And so he is trying to reassure Mustafa Hamza that the 16 phones are okay, right? 17 A. No, he is talking here about something that, you know, you 18 know, in the beginning, I don't know what he means by the 19 beginning, the past period that they were in touch with each 20 other. 21 I really don't know what they are saying in there. 22 Q. And Mustafa Hamza says at the beginning of the next page: 23 Well, of course the brother is not to blame, the brother passed 24 the phone numbers in a straightforward way. The brother is -- 25 And Atia responds: No, no. He did not pass them, no. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10851 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 He asked us to provide him with the correct numbers. We first 2 sent them to him in a certain way. If someone is listening, he 3 wouldn't understand a thing. But he said, we don't know 4 anything about this, we need details, and so, tsk, we need an 5 explicit something while we were. 6 So, what Atia is saying, the way the original 7 telephones phone numbers were originally passed, whatever way 8 that happens they were passed in a specific way so that if 9 anyone was listening -- anyone meaning the government -- they 10 wouldn't understand what the telephone number was? 11 A. This is what he said in there. 12 Q. On page 11 the conversation between Atia and Hamza is 13 continuing and at line 23 Hamza says: Yes, I understand. I 14 just want to say that you should not be preoccupied with any 15 feud anyway. The important thing is the general policy. All 16 the people agreed on a general policy; you should not follow 17 the deviant, whoever he is, Abu Yasir, Sheikh Abu Nadhara, 18 Mr. so and so. You have nothing to do with them, huh? You 19 must follow the deviant [sic] this is the important thing in 20 this respect. 21 Again, this is Mustafa Hamza telling Atia don't listen 22 to anybody but me, essentially. Right? 23 A. No. He is saying he must follow the general policy of the 24 Islamic Group, which was the peace initiative, must follow 25 this. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10852 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 If there is anybody who is trying to deviate from 2 this, whether he is Abu Yasir or Salah Hashim, Abu Nadhara, 3 don't listen to anybody, you must follow the general policy, 4 even if the deviant himself would be Yunis. Just, you know, 5 follow the general policy. 6 That's what he is saying. 7 Q. And he names Abu Yasir as the deviant, right? 8 A. Yes, no, it was just an expression. The deviant. The 9 deviant could be Mr. So. The deviant could be Mr. So, the 10 deviant could be Abu Yasir. The deviant could be Salah Hashim. 11 The deviant could be anybody. 12 That's what he was referring -- this is what I 13 understand him saying. 14 Q. But in fact the deviant was Abu Yasir, right? 15 A. But in fact the deviant was Abu Yasir? I don't know if he 16 was a deviant. I know he had a different point of view. 17 Q. They continue speaking on page 12 and Hamza says to him: 18 Do you understand as well? 19 And Atia says: Frankly, speaking, can we move to a 20 different topic and we leave this one for now? 21 And Hamza says: Do you understand this well, this is 22 a basic issue, it is the core of things, huh? 23 And Atia says, after a brief pause: Okay, can I just 24 know with who I am speaking? 25 And Hamza says: Didn't I tell you? The problem is... SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10853 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 you are going to waste... didn't you request to talk to 2 someone? Haven't you sent a request to talk to specific 3 people? 4 At this point in the conversation Atia and Mustafa 5 Hamza -- Atia is questioning who Mustafa Hamza is, right? 6 A. Atia doesn't know who he is talking to and Mustafa Hamza 7 still don't know who he is talking to. 8 Q. And Atia says, we were expecting to talk to the person that 9 used to talk to us before. This is what we requested. 10 Then Hamza says after a pause: When was the last time 11 you spoke to him? 12 And Atia says: It was... um... since '96. 13 Hamza says: From '96. Had you been talking to Abu 14 Yasir or eh. 15 And Abu Yasir is Rifa'i Taha, right? 16 A. Yes, and he is saying of course not. 17 Q. And he says: Of course not. 18 And Hamza says: Huh? 19 And Atia says: Not specifically. 20 Hamza says: Huh? 21 Atia says: Not specifically, but almost. 22 Is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. At page 17 of Government Exhibit 1075X, they continue 25 talking and Atia says to Mustafa Hamza: Okay, sir. Let me SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10854 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 tell you something. As for me, myself, since I... since, I 2 mean since I started working -- 3 And Hamza says: Yes. 4 And by "working" you understand that he is referring 5 to since he was involved in the Islamic Group, right? 6 A. Yes; from what he is saying. 7 Q. Atia continues and says: There was no information about me 8 whatsoever. Nobody knows this piece of information except for 9 the man who used to talk to me. And no one else, such as 10 someone who was with me then got caught, not at all of that 11 sort happened. Nothing could have given them indications about 12 this particular information. 13 And Hamza says: But what is this piece of 14 information? Explain it to me so I can follow up with you on 15 the situation. What is it exactly? 16 And Atia says: The information which came? 17 Hamza says: The information which was broadcast, as 18 long as it was already broadcast I want to understand what it 19 is. Wasn't it already broadcast and you said that you heard it 20 yourself, huh? 21 Atia says: Yeah Hamza says what is it? 22 Atia says: It said that after uh... it was said that 23 during a meeting of the board and so -- 24 Hamza: Ah. 25 Atia, eh, Mr. So and so was appointed as Farid's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10855 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 replacement. 2 Farid is a reference to Farid Kidwani, right? 3 A. I believe Farid is Farid. It could be Farid Kidwani, yes. 4 Q. Well, you understood that this was a reference to the fact 5 that Atia was replacing Farid Kidwani as the military leader of 6 the Islamic Group in Egypt, right? 7 A. From what I see here the whole thing is a joke to me. Here 8 is the Islamic Group leader Mustafa Hamza and the other leader 9 Rifa'i Taha and the military leader of the Islamic Group and he 10 doesn't know -- the leaders don't know who he is, he doesn't 11 know who hired him. He is asking them. They don't know what 12 this is going on. 13 This goes to what I was saying, it was a whole 14 dysfunction body. This is what Islamic Group came to. He 15 didn't know -- nobody knows who is he no more. 16 This is what I understand from this conversation. 17 Q. Right, but what Atia was saying was that he heard a report 18 that he was appointed as the leader, the military leader of the 19 groupand, and that he wanted to find out how this information 20 was leaked, right? 21 A. No. He heard a report or he read a report or heard it on 22 the radio what was said and it said that he was appointed the 23 Islamic Group military leader and he wants to find out if this 24 is trueand. And is he asking Yunis or Mustafa Hamza, as you 25 say, Mr. Morvillo, Mustafa Hamza is the leader of the Islamic SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10856 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Group and he doesn't even know. 2 Rifa'i Taha doesn't even know who he, Atia, so it is 3 just -- the whole thing to me, you know, I mean, it was a joke 4 right there. 5 Q. Right. But Mustafa Hamza was one of the leaders outside of 6 Egypt, right? He was in Afghanistan? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Displaying page 18, at line 18 there Hamza says: Ahand. 9 And Atia says: Muntasir commented on this and said 10 that this is... this is... he did not deny it but he said that 11 these are some disagreements inside the company and so. 12 The company is a reference to the Islamic Group, 13 right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And Hamza says: Do you have an idea about the date of 16 publication of this report? 17 And Atia responds: Around 9/30 or the 29th. 18 And that's September 30th or September 29th of 1999? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And Farid Kidwani was killed in early September of 1999, 21 right? 22 A. I'm not sure the date exactly but, you know, he was killed 23 around the, you know, in '99. 24 Q. He was killed -- 25 A. I mean, you probably are more sure about the date than me SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10857 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 so you know, if you say he was killed around that time so he 2 was killed around that time. 3 Q. He was killed prior to the September '99 prison visit, 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so Atia says, continuing at line 23: I heard it was 7 the 30th but it could have been issued the 28th or the 29th. 8 And Hamza says: Is it 9/30/99? 9 And then, continuing over onto the next page, Atia 10 says: Yes. Plus I heard it on the voice of Israel about 11:00 11 o'clock. 12 What's the Voice of Israel, Mr. Sattar? 13 A. It is a radio station like the Voice of America that 14 broadcast in Arabic throughout the Arab world. 15 Q. So, what he is saying is that he heard the fact that he had 16 been named as the military leader of the Islamic Group 17 broadcast over the Voice of Israel at some point? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Then just a few pages later in the transcript at page 22 of 20 Government Exhibit 1075X, starting at line 20and -- and you 21 testified about this on your direct examination, if I recall 22 correctly, right -- Atia says: No, no, regarding us -- 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, there was a question but no 24 answer. 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10858 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Atia says: No, no. Regarding us... regarding usand. 2 And Hamza says: Yesand. 3 And Atia says: The big matter. 4 And Hamza says: Yes. 5 And Atia says: The big matter -- 6 And Hamza says: Yes. Again. 7 And Atia says: Understand? The big matter -- 8 Hamza says: Yes. 9 Atia says: -- was a reason for what happenedand. 10 And Hamza says: Yes. 11 Atia says: From the beginning, of course... you must 12 have known by now, that we did the big matter on our own, we 13 had no link to anybody and nobody told us anything. 14 The big matter, in your understanding, is a reference 15 to the Luxor massacre, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And so what Atia is telling Mustafa Hamza is that he was 18 involved -- he, Atia -- was involved in the Luxor massacre? 19 A. He is referring to the "we" so it is probably included 20 other people, yes. 21 Q. At line 11 Atia continues and says: Our goal from the 22 beginning was to achieve what happened based on the thought we 23 were raised to have, meaning, this is our best. 24 And Hamza responds saying: Well, you are right. 25 Atia says: We are, eh, we are here to obey. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10859 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 And then there is an unintelligible. 2 Hamza says: We are very appreciative of that. All 3 the people are appreciative. I mean to say that people are 4 very much in appreciation of that. 5 Atia says: That's fine, no more. But, eh, do not 6 ever think that we might get scared or so. It will never 7 happen, God willing. 8 A. Can you repeat that line again, please? 9 Q. I'm sorry, line 19? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you see where he says "scared"? 12 A. Yes, that's fine. No more. Yes. 13 Q. And then Mustafa Hamza says: This is the most important 14 thing in the entire matter. The most important issue is to 15 keep the general frame, huh, this is the most important thing. 16 And gradually, God may open a door for us to exit from, eh, 17 what had occurred over the phone lines, someone can travel, 18 another can come over... you know, better opportunities will 19 present itself, huh? 20 And then on the next page Atia continues or responds 21 and says: Anyway, I am very ready for it, with very little 22 help, I am more than ready for that matter. 23 Did I read that right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then on page 25 of Government Exhibit 1075X, starting SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10860 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 at line 8, Mustafa Hamza says: So we can talk with Amer, but 2 once more, I would like to deal in total anonymity. I am not 3 going to say my name over the phone. Because of the 4 sensitivity of the matter... uh, but I am going to try to have 5 Amer... I mean to solve Amer's issue. Maybe we'll be able to 6 come out with a better understanding and you can communicate 7 with these people in a better way, God willing. 8 Atia responds by saying: God willing. 9 And Hamza says: Just as a starter, we sent $2,000 to 10 the Doctor, by you, just as a starter. 11 Again, Mr. Sattar, the doctor was a reference to 12 Dr. Ismail? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. "This is until we see how things will go. If things go 15 smoothly, that's fine, if you want to keep going and his 16 circumstances permit, that will be good." 17 So, Mustafa Hamza is saying is he is going to send 18 $2,000 or they sent $2,000 to Atia and that if things work out 19 they'll continue to send him money, if they can? 20 A. Yes, if he received that money with no problems, if things 21 worked out, you know, it will, he will probably continue 22 sending money to the people there. 23 Q. And then at line 19 Atia says: Okay. Anyway, we are going 24 to take from this amount -- 25 And from this amount he is referring to the $2,000, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10861 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 right? 2 A. I'm sorry? 3 Q. From, what he says, from this amount, we are going to take 4 from this amount? 5 A. Yes, the $2,000. Yes. 6 Q. Half of the expenses, and then we'll -- then he asks a 7 question: What do you think if we use half of the money to 8 purchase a mobile. 9 He is talking about a mobile telephone, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And so, it was your understanding that Atia was thinking of 12 using some of the money that Mustafa Hamza sent him to buy a 13 cell phone, basically, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 He wants to be like everybody else. You know, in 16 Egypt at the time it was -- it was a hot thing, you know, 17 everybody wants to buy a mobile phone in Egypt at the time, you 18 know. It was a big thing in the area, yes. 19 Q. Displaying page 31 of Government Exhibit 1075X, at line 8 20 Mustafa Hamza says: Therefore, there is no need to purchase 21 things; and through the purchase he gets a clueand, and through 22 the clue he... no, keep it 'til we evaluate our situation. If 23 our Lord facilitates things and a re-evaluation is achieved 24 considering the people's circumstances and so, we will have 25 joint coordination. If you happen to travel or so, we are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10862 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 going to precisely understand the situation, the capacity and 2 circumstances, huh. I mean, together, we arrange things. 3 And Atia says: Sir, let me tell you about something. 4 Regarding -- 5 And he continues at line 17: Regarding the purchase 6 of certain things. To start with, we don't need anything of 7 that sort. 8 They're talking about weapons, right? 9 A. I believe so, yes. He is talking about things, you know, 10 that they had. He says -- you know, I mean, if you go back to 11 the conversation, the whole thing you know, they are talking 12 about the general policy of the Islamic Group and he is 13 talking -- I understand he is talking purchase of certain 14 things could be weapons, yes. 15 Q. And Atia says: We have enough. 16 And then Mustafa Hamza says: That is fine. No need 17 then to open new doors, in order to avoid any thread of 18 evidence, huh? 19 And so what Mustafa Hamza is telling him is you don't 20 need to go out and buy more weapons to, because that might draw 21 attention to you. Is that right? 22 A. He is telling him, you know, I mean, if you go to the part 23 that you read before, you will see that he is talking when he 24 says, you know, that we, you know, he is not scared, he is 25 not -- he is following the general policyand. And Mustafa SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10863 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Hamza is telling him that he appreciates that. 2 So, Mustafa Hamza is telling him, you know, there is 3 no need to buy anything because, basically, the general policy 4 of the Islamic Group is the peace initiative. 5 Q. Well, actually that's not what he is saying, is it? What 6 he is saying is: That's fine. No need to open new doors in 7 order to avoid any threat of evidence. 8 Right? 9 A. You cannot just isolate this words here from the old 10 alliance that you just escaped and just, you know, kept reading 11 and just went on without my explaining what goes on there. 12 This goes with context of that conversation the way I 13 understand it. 14 Q. But they're talking about the purchase of weapons, right? 15 A. He is telling him don't buy weapons. 16 Q. And for whatever reason, don't buy weapons? 17 A. He is telling him don't. Yes. 18 Q. And Atia says, that's okay because we already have them, 19 right? 20 A. Yes. If you are from upper Egypt you will know that every 21 single person there is, has a weapon. It is not a problem to 22 have a weapon in upper Egypt. It is part of the culture there. 23 Once a child reaches certain age, you know, he will 24 walk with a Kalashnikov AK-47. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I object. I move to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10864 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 strike. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar I -- 4 THE WITNESS: I did not finish. 5 THE COURT: Oh, but the answer was finished. 6 Go ahead. Go ahead 7 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 8 Q. My question was, he told Mustafa Hamza that he already had 9 weapons, right? 10 A. That's what he is saying there, yes. 11 Q. At page 38 of Government Exhibit 1075X Mustafa Hamza says: 12 Of course, you understand through Abu Nadhara that Sheikh Abu 13 Yasir represents eh... eh... he represents some kind of 14 instability until now, do you get it? Huh? 15 And Atia says: Okay. 16 Did I read that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I'm going to move on to 19 another transcript, did you want to take another break this 20 morning? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 10 minutes. 23 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk about 24 the case, keep an open mind. 25 All rise, please. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10865 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Sattar may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Recess) 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10866 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 2 MR. MORVILLO: May I go to the lectern, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes, please. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, you want to break around 5 12:45? 6 THE COURT: Around then. Whenever Mr. Fletcher 7 indicates that the lunch is here. 8 (Jury present) 9 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 10 Mr. Fletcher. 11 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're 12 still under oath. 13 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 16 Your Honor may I display to the jury Government 17 Exhibit 1078X in evidence? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, this also has a limiting 20 instruction. 21 THE COURT: And the limiting instruction is that it is 22 received solely with respect to Counts 2 and 3, yes? 23 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. I believe the full 24 limiting instruction is it is received solely with respect with 25 respect to Counts 2 and 3 and not with respect to any of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10867 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart and Mr. Yousry. 2 THE COURT: The jury is directed to follow that 3 instruction. 4 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1075X, the one very long 5 transcript between Mr. Mustafa Hamza and Atia that we were just 6 discussing before the break is a telephone call that occurred 7 on April 24, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you recall that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When that call ended, you had a separate conversation with 12 Mustafa Hamza, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that's reflected in Government Exhibit 1078X? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Which is also on April 24, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. After your greetings you say to him at line 5: Yes, it is 19 okay. The thing I want to say to you, God willing, when he 20 calls him again. And Mr. Hamza says: Please go ahead. You 21 say: Tell him to take the cellular phone off his head. Hamza 22 says: Oh, no, no, it is a bad idea, yeah. You say: No. It 23 is very -- I mean the people there don't understand this. It 24 is extremely dangerous. 25 What you're referring to is the fact that you don't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10868 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 want Atia to buy a cell phone? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That's because you heard him say in the conversation that 4 we just read a moment ago that he was going to use half the 5 money that Mr. Mustafa Hamza was sending him to buy a mobile, 6 right. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Abu Hamza says at line 9: No. No. It is a bad idea. 9 And Mr. Hamza at line 12 says: Dangerous, right? And you say: 10 Yeah. It is very dangerous. I mean, it is much easier than, 11 than, than. And continuing on to page 2: Than the land line 12 by far. 13 Basically what you're telling him, aren't you, 14 Mr. Sattar, is that it is much easier to put a wiretap on a 15 cell phone than on a land line? 16 A. It is much easier to be intercepted, yes. I mean, what -- 17 yeah, it is much easier to be intercepted. 18 Q. In fact, that's what you say on the next line. I mean, 19 whatever I -- whatever it receives and sends can always be 20 intercepted. Hamza says: Easy right away. You say yeah right 21 away. At line 8. You say: I mean they eh -- I mean spoke to 22 Mr. Muntasir about this subject. I don't know. He does not 23 want to be convinced. 24 When you say Mr. Muntasir, you're referring to 25 Muntasir Al-Zayyat? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10869 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. I used to speak to Muntasir Al-Zayyat on the phone 2 and he has always called me on his cell phone. That's why we 3 spoke on some of his conversations -- 4 Q. During some of those telephone conversations with Muntasir 5 Al-Zayyat you told him, don't use a cell phone -- 6 A. I did not tell him don't use a cell phone. It was just a 7 conversation to that effect. It was just, you know, about the 8 cell phones in general. 9 Q. In other words, what you're saying is, you didn't advise 10 Muntasir Al-Zayyat not to use a cell phone; you just discussed 11 with him the fact that they were easier to intercept? 12 A. I don't remember that I advised him, don't use your cell 13 phone, no. 14 Q. When you said in line 8, I even spoke to Mr. Muntasir about 15 this subject, I don't know, he does not want to be convinced, 16 what you're saying is is the subject of the fact that cell 17 phones can be easily intercepted? 18 A. That cell phones are, yes. 19 Q. At line 11 you say: I don't know, to be honest, and Hamza 20 says: It is a big problem. And then you say: I mean, there 21 is an impression, a grave impression in Egypt that this 22 telephone is safe. It is not unintelligible. And then you 23 change the subject, right, and you say you want to try to get 24 this boss, God willing. 25 That's right, you were changing the subject, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10870 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. We were talking about the phone and he wanted to call 2 somebody else, so -- 3 Q. So you said, you want me to get this other person for you? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 6 Government Exhibit 1083X in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, this transcript also has 9 that same limiting instruction. 10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, you are to follow 11 the same limiting instruction. This is received only with 12 respect to Counts 2 and 3 and not for the truth of any of the 13 matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. It 14 cannot be considered for the truth of any of the matters 15 asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 16 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, during this time period you recall that 17 you had been out of touch with Abu Yasir? 18 A. During that period? 19 Q. This time period that we have been discussing this 20 morning -- I'm sorry, from the spring of 2000, late winter, 21 spring of 2000, you had been out of touch with Abu Yasir? 22 A. I believe, yes, he was out of touch for a few months. I am 23 not quite sure, two months, a month, three months, but for a 24 period of time, yes. 25 Q. And displaying Government Exhibit 1083X, this is a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10871 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 telephone conversation between you and Rifa'i Taha, Abu Yasir, 2 on May 9 of 2000, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And after you exchanged greetings at line 8 you say: We 5 miss you, or should I say we long for you or eh, how do they 6 say that in Upper Egypt? And he laughs. And you say: How is 7 it going? He says: We are fine. And then you said: Thank 8 God. You made us worry about you, man. And he says: May God 9 reward you. No. Thank God we were just fine. Then you say: 10 Thank God, thank God. I swear we were counting the days and 11 asking when will this Sheikh call us. 12 So this is you referring to the fact that you had been 13 out of touch with him for a little while? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It is fair to say that it is the first call you had with 16 Rifa'i Taha in at least several weeks? 17 A. Yes. The nice person that I am, I'm just using -- being 18 nice with him. 19 Q. Displaying page 3 of this transcript, Rifa'i Taha says at 20 line 14: We received an account number (sic) of a man by you, 21 but we don't know how to reach him later on it. And you said: 22 How come? And he says: Ah. You say: Okay, oh, yeah, yeah, 23 eh, eh, eh, no. It is by appointment. Taha says: By 24 appointment ah? You say: Yes by appointment. Then-Taha says: 25 Okay then. We will try to agree on something later, God SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10872 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 willing. 2 Then on the next page the conversation continues in 3 this area and you say: God willing, you just tell me, I mean 4 eh. And Taha says: When I need him and -- and you say: When 5 you need him, at the time you, at, at, at, at the time you ah. 6 And he says okay. You said: God willing, we will ask him to 7 look into this matter. 8 What are you talking about here? 9 A. I'm talking about the telephone number. 10 Q. Whose? 11 A. Nabil Elmasry. 12 Q. You were trying to put Rifa'i Taha in touch with Nabil 13 Elmasry? 14 A. He was asking for a telephone number beside my phone 15 number, so I give him Nabil's telephone number and I said, 16 here, you know, here it is. 17 Q. And the reason why you understood you wanted to talk with 18 Nabil Elmasry was because he wanted someone else to be in touch 19 with in the United States? 20 A. He wanted to be in touch with somebody else. The people 21 were questioning my credibility, me, saying this guy, you know 22 wouldn't know who he is. You know, I mean, I mean, things that 23 I speak about the Sheikh, I speak on behalf of the Sheikh. And 24 I said, you know, this is the telephone number for this man. 25 He worked with the Sheikh. And if anybody wants to ask SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10873 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 anything, they can quote him. 2 Q. Nabil Elmasry was another one of the Sheikh's paralegals? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. At line 9 you say to him: Yes. Chief, he is mostly 5 available on either Monday or Tuesday. I mean, possibly three 6 to four hours before that. So what you were referring to is 7 the fact that Nabil Elmasry was generally available to speak 8 with him on Mondays or Tuesdays, right? 9 A. I am probably saying that, yes. 10 Q. And then at line 16 you say: Yes. But it is important to 11 inform him ahead of time, or to tell him before, I mean. God 12 willing. 13 And, again, what you're referring to is he has got to 14 make arrangements to speak with Nabil Elmasry before he calls? 15 A. To be honest with you, I am not quite sure that what even I 16 told you before it was of Nabil Elmasry. I'm just assuming 17 here. I'm just going through the call. Can I see the whole 18 call, please, just to know what I'm talking about here? 19 Q. This is actually what I have just shown you is the entire 20 discussion of this topic. 21 A. This is it? 22 Q. Yup. 23 A. I really don't know exactly what I'm talking about here. I 24 was assuming that I give him the number of Nabil Elmasry 25 because it was at the time it was just said, you know, that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10874 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 there was something about people saying that he is -- we don't 2 know who this guy is. And I said this is a number for Nabil 3 Elmasry. He work for the Sheikh. I believe I give him the 4 number for Nabil Elmasry. This specific conversation, I don't 5 know what I'm talking about here. 6 Q. Did you give him the telephone numbers of anyone else in 7 the United States? 8 A. I did give him the number of Yousef Odeh that I used to 9 work with -- I mean, I worked with him in the formula business 10 and I was spending a lot of time with him. 11 Q. Right. And he is the person that -- whose cell phone you 12 had those conversations on with Rifa'i Taha that occurred in 13 October of 2000, right? 14 A. Yes. So it could be this one or this one. But what I'm 15 talking about here clearly, I'm talking about the telephone 16 number. Which one exactly, I don't want to be just -- 17 Q. It is either Nabil Elmasry or Yousef Odeh? 18 A. Either or. 19 Q. Did you give his number to anyone else? 20 A. Did I give -- 21 Q. Did you give his number to anyone else besides Rifa'i Taha? 22 A. This is the only people I gave. I give him Nabil Elmasry's 23 number so if anybody wants to check my, see who I am, they can 24 call him and for Yousef okay because from the beginning of 2000 25 I was spending too much time with him working in the baby SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10875 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 formula business, and he has a cell phone. 2 Q. Page 9 of this conversation which occurred on May 9 -- 3 A. The same conversation? 4 Q. Yes. With Rifa'i Taha. This is later in the conversation. 5 On page 9, you say: Yeah, yeah, and they like to eh. Then you 6 said: Anyway. A communication happened between Yunis and 7 those people. And he said hum. And you said: It is okay. I 8 mean, it wasn't bad. And he says hum. And you said: I 9 believe your brother -- and you're laughing -- doesn't 10 understand a lot of things. I believe, but God knows better, 11 um, they calmed down. And Taha says hum. Meaning 12 unintelligible, around them? And you say: Yes, yes. And you 13 pause. And you say yes. It was clear that they are not. 14 Comfortable with the engineer. 15 You're talking about the fact that you connected 16 Mustafa Hamza or Yunis, as you refer to him here, with Atia and 17 Hani, right? 18 A. Yes. At the first line here I'm telling him that Yunis get 19 in touch with those people, that I send you about -- I send you 20 an e-mail in a few months back. And I say it is okay, it is 21 not bad. It wasn't bad, the conversation. What I'm saying 22 here, I believe your brother means me. I'm referring to 23 myself. I don't understand a lot of things. I don't know a 24 lot of things they are talking about. I believe God knows 25 better. Those people calmed down because they were calling me SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10876 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 as you saw a few times seeking people. Do you want to talk to 2 Yunis or Abu Yasir? So here I'm telling them the situation it 3 will calm down, they don't bother that much no more. 4 Q. My question was, did you -- were you telling him that you 5 had connected Yunis and Atia and Hani? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. The answer is yes, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And at the end when you said it was clear that they are not 10 comfortable with the engineer, again, you're referring to Salah 11 Hashim? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. The conversation continues and Taha says: Hah. And you 14 say: I mean those. And Taha says: They complained. They 15 complained from the stories circulating now. You said: Oh, 16 yes, they complained from the stories circulating now, but our 17 brother told them also, this is according to what the people 18 agreed to. They said we cannot revolt against -- and you said 19 hum. And you said: Anyone, but eh, eh, eh, they were 20 resentful to put it in a better way. Rifa'i Taha says: I 21 better call them in this case, ah? Then you stated in response 22 to that on page 10: I don't know. Calling them is by 23 appointment. Rifa'i Taha says: He better call Atia and Hani, 24 right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10877 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You said: You can only do it by an appointment? 2 A. Yes. Because if you go back to the calls, they set a date, 3 you know, they were telling Yunis, you call us on such a date. 4 It is very hard to get in touch with them unless somebody is 5 waiting by the phone. 6 Q. And Rifa'i Taha says: