10952 4CG5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 16, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 (Pages 10953-10957 SEALED by order of the Court) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10958 4CG5SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; in open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Whenever the parties are ready, just let 3 me know. 4 (Pause) 5 THE COURT: The jury needs a couple of minutes and so 6 I will see you shortly. 7 (Recess) 8 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. Mr. Sattar is on 9 the stand; Mr. Morvillo at the lectern. 10 (Witness resumes the stand) 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10959 4CG5SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 4 THE JURY: Good morning. 5 THE COURT: Good to see you all, as always. 6 A JUROR: Thank you. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 8 Mr. Fletcher? 9 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 10 are still under oath. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 12 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, resumed. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 14 CROSS EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. MORVILLO: 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, when we broke yesterday we were just about to 17 start discussing the telephone call that you connected between 18 Rifa'i Taha and Hani, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that's Government Exhibit 1167X? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Right? 23 Now, that call occurred on September 4th of 2000 24 following your efforts, over the course of several months, to 25 connect Rifa'i Taha and Atia, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10960 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And Hani was a middleman for Atia during this call, is that 3 right? He was the middleman that sent messages to Atia? 4 A. Yes, he was just a go-between. Yes. 5 Q. And, during this call, Rifa'i Taha gave Hani a message to 6 give to Atia, right? 7 A. Yes. He was explaining to him -- 8 Q. I just asked you whether that was the case; yes or no. 9 A. Yes, he just give him; yes. 10 Q. He gave him a message to give to Atia, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And several days later, on September 18th of 2000, you 13 connected another telephone call between Rifa'i Taha and Hani, 14 right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that's Government Exhibit 1170X, in evidence? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display that to the 19 jury, Government Exhibit 1170X? 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. MORVILLO: And, your Honor, I believe that 1170X 22 and 1167X both have limiting instructions. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 Ladies and gentlemen, these exhibits are received only 25 with respect to Counts Two and Three of the indictment and they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10961 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 are not admitted with respect to the truth of any of the 2 matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 3 And yes, you can display 1170X. 4 MR. MORVILLO: I'm sorry, your Honor. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is Government Exhibit 1170X on the screen, 6 do you see it? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. At page 2 of the transcript, when Hani gets on the phone 9 with Rifa'i Taha after they greet one another, Rifa'i Taha, at 10 line 17, says: Did you give my regards to the man or not? 11 And by 'the man' he was referring to Atia, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And Hani responds: Yes, he received your regards, and he 14 is sending the answer on a paper here. 15 And Rifa'i Taha says: This is fine. 16 Right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And so, it's your understanding that Atia was responding to 19 the message that Taha had previously given to Hani for Atia, 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Displaying page 3 from Government Exhibit 1170X, Hani read 23 the message, began to read the message to Rifa'i Taha, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And the first point, at line 8 Hani says: First, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10962 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 concerning the base, the capacity, and the unintelligible 2 obligations. It is a legitimate base. 3 Right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And Hani used the word "qaeda" when he said base, right? 6 A. This is -- qaeda? Yes, means -- qaeda could be translated 7 to principal or a place. We said qaeda sharia, and this is 8 spelled S-H-A-R-I-A. 9 Q. Mr. Sattar, my question was, did he use the word "qaeda"? 10 A. Yes, he used the word qaeda but, you know, there is a qaeda 11 sharia, you have to understand, that means legitimate base. 12 Q. And at line 13 Hani stated to Rifa'i Taha: What happened 13 in Manfaloot, Tema, Qena and Luxor and others was executed 14 through it. 15 And Taha responded: God bless. 16 Is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And continuing with the message from Atia to Taha on page 19 4, Hani stated, at line 9: Secondly, regarding the 20 preparation, we hope that our brothers will help us to surprise 21 our enemy with a fatal attack, by God's will, or at least it 22 will be a step forward to a happy ending, by God's will. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did I read that right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10963 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Incidentally, Mr. Sattar, over the course of the time that 2 you were speaking to Rifa'i Taha, sometimes he called you on a 3 cell phone, right? 4 A. He called me, I believe I spoke to him once on a cell 5 phone. 6 Q. You used a cell phone once to talk to him are you saying? 7 A. I spoke to him once on a cell phone, yes. 8 Q. But what was he using to call you? 9 A. What he was using? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. To call me? I don't know. 12 Q. Well, sometimes you know that he was calling you through 13 the internet, right? 14 A. Yes, I believe that sometimes he was calling me through the 15 internet, yes. So I really don't know about what kind of 16 equipment he has. I really don't know. 17 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, the last call that we just discussed was 18 on September 18th of 2000? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. On September 21st of 2000, Al-Jazeera broadcast a 21 conference that showed Osama Bin Laden, Rifa'i Taha, and Ayman 22 Al-Zawahiri, her recalling for the release of Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you saw that on Al-Jazeera, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10964 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, I saw that on the, what do you call it, the news 2 summary; yes. 3 Q. You saw Rifa'i Taha participating in a conference with two 4 other terrorist leaders, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you knew at the time that Ayman Zawahiri was a leader 7 of another Egyptian terrorist group called Egyptian Islamic 8 Jihad or EIJ, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you were aware of the fact that Zawahiri had joined 11 forces with Bin Laden and Bin Laden's terrorist organization 12 Al-Qaeda, right? 13 A. I know they were together, yes, according to the thing that 14 I read; yes. 15 Q. And in fact you knew that from what you had read Zawahiri 16 was considered to be a close associate of Osama Bin Laden's, 17 right? 18 A. I am not sure, you know, of that, but I know they were -- I 19 mean, together. How close they were, I'm not quite sure. 20 Q. Well, you also knew that Ayman Al-Zawahiri was on the same 21 list with the United States Department of Treasury that Rifa'i 22 Taha was on, right? 23 A. Yes. There were so many names on that list, yes. 24 Q. And Zawahiri's name was one of them, right? 25 A. One of them, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10965 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And the list we are referring to is a list of specifically 2 designated terrorists, right? 3 A. Yes, it was about 90 -- 99.9 percent of it Muslim 4 organizations and Muslim people, yes. 5 Q. And at this time, in September of 2000, you knew that Osama 6 Bin Laden had been indicted for the embassy bombings, right? 7 A. Yes, I read -- I read the indictment, yes. 8 Q. And you also knew that Bin Laden had issued fatwahs calling 9 for the deaths of Americans, right? 10 A. Yes, it was covered by the news. Yes. 11 Q. And you also knew that Rifa'i Taha and Zawahiri had both 12 signed Bin Laden's February 1998 fatwah calling for the murder 13 of Americans, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And while you were watching on September 21st, Rifa'i Taha 16 called you on the telephone, didn't he? 17 A. Yes, with our -- yes. 18 Q. And you told him that you were watching him on television 19 in what you called the victory conference, right? 20 A. This is what the name of, I did not call it the victory 21 conference, this is what they call it on TV and this is how 22 they refer to it. 23 It was called the victory conference. I did not give 24 it that name. 25 Q. And the transcript of that telephone conversation between SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10966 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 yourself and Rifa'i Taha was introduced into evidence in this 2 case, right? 3 A. Yes, I believe so. Yes. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 5 Government Exhibit 1173X? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I confer with 8 Mr. Morvillo? 9 THE COURT: Yes, sure. 10 (Counsel conferring) 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, Mr. Tigar has reminded me 12 that this call also received a limiting instruction. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 Ladies and gentlemen, this transcript and the 15 recording are received solely with respect to Counts Two and 16 Three of the indictment and it cannot be considered for the 17 truth of any of the matters asserted with respect to 18 Ms. Stewart and Mr. Yousry. 19 BY MR. MORVILLO: 20 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is the transcript of that conversation 21 that you had with Rifa'i Taha, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And what you said to him was, at line 4, after greeting 24 him: I am watching you now, Sheikh. How are you? 25 And he was surprised: It sounds like you're watching. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10967 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Right? 2 And he said: How are you watching me? 3 And you said: On Al-Jazeera in the, uh, con... 4 He said: Al-Jazeera. 5 And you said: In this victory conference... the 6 victory conference. 7 And he said: Yeah. 8 That's the conference with Bin Laden, Zawahiri and 9 Taha, right? 10 A. Yes. When he called me it was just broadcast, I mean, the 11 news summary was broadcasting. 12 Q. And so, he said, oh, I'm going to go watch it too and I'll 13 call you back, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And a videotape of that conference was played here in 16 court, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In the course of that conference Sheikh Abdel Rahman's son 19 Mohammed is heard, stating in the background, Let's go spill 20 blood. Right? 21 A. Yes, I heard it here in the courtroom; yes. It was the 22 first time, by the way, to see that whole thing for me. 23 Q. And you knew that Mohammed Abdel Rahman was in Afghanistan, 24 right? 25 A. I knew he was in Afghanistan, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10968 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And by saying, Let's go spill blood, you understood that 2 Mohammed Abdel Rahman was calling for murder to force the 3 United States of America to free his convicted terrorist leader 4 of a father, right? 5 A. Can you repeat that again? 6 Q. You knew that by stating, by saying, Let's go spill blood, 7 Mohammed Abdel Rahman was calling for murder to force the 8 United States government to free his convicted terrorist leader 9 father Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 10 A. I'm not going to water down his words. His words is his 11 words. I'm not going to just justify his words or try to -- 12 his words is his words, Mr. Morvillo. He was calling to spill 13 the blood. I read that in the newspapers, I did not see it on 14 TV at the time. And for the first time I seen that was here 15 when he introduced that videotape. 16 Q. Right. But you had read it previously in the newspapers, 17 right? 18 A. Yes, I did read it in the newspaper. I'm not quite sure 19 how many days after that. 20 Q. Now, shortly after this date after you saw this video 21 conference, fighting -- 22 A. You mean after I saw the news summary? 23 Q. After you saw the news summary. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You didn't see the entire conference, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10969 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. It was just about a minute. They showed Rifa'i Taha and 2 Al-Zawahiri and Bin Laden and said they were calling for the 3 release of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 4 This is what was broadcast on TV that night and this 5 is what I saw on TV that night; yes. 6 Q. And then, on the heels of that, in the middle east fighting 7 broke out at this time, right? 8 A. Yeah. It was the end of -- 9 Q. The end of September? 10 A. I believe, yes, toward a little -- you know -- 11 Q. I'm not trying to connect -- 12 A. I'm just trying to remember what date was the conference 13 and -- I believe it was on the 21st? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Okay so, it was around that time, yes. 16 Q. It was towards the end of September, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you recall when Ariel Sharon went to Al-Aqsa mosque? 19 A. Of course I do. 20 Q. What was the date, do you recall? 21 A. It was toward either September 28 or September 20 -- around 22 the end of September. 23 Q. This visit by Sharon to Al-Aqsa triggered violence, right? 24 A. Triggered demonstrations and violence against Palestinians, 25 yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10970 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And Al-Aqsa mosque, in the Islamic religion, is a very 2 important site, correct? 3 A. In the Muslim beliefs we consider it the third holiest 4 place in Islam. 5 Q. That is where it is said that Mohammed ascended to heaven 6 on a ladder of golden light, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Al-Aqsa is where the Dome of the Rock is, right? 9 A. I have never been to Al-Aqsa mosque but it is a compound, 10 you know, including the Dome of the Rock and the mosque itself 11 but I can't tell you anything other than that. 12 I know it's holy, you know, for us as Muslims and the 13 Dome of the Rock and the mosque right there. 14 Q. And it is also very important to Jewish people, right? 15 A. Yes. They have the wailing wall and I believe it is in the 16 western corner of that -- I don't know, that held up -- or a 17 mountain. You know, I know it's a higher ground. 18 I know it's important for -- the western corner for 19 the Jews, and the compound itself of Al-Aqsa and the Dome of 20 the Rock is important for the Muslims. 21 Q. Well, the Rock is also where it is believed that Abraham 22 nearly sacrificed his son, right? 23 A. I'm not quite sure. This is, you know, we believe as 24 Muslims that Abraham sacrificed -- or tried to sacrifice his 25 son in Mecca. It is not there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10971 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. In the Muslim faith? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, after Sharon's visit you said there were 4 demonstrations and fighting broke out, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that's because Sharon's visit was viewed as an 7 instigation of the Muslims, right? 8 A. It was viewed as an instigation of Muslims. The way he 9 went there was about, surrounded with so many Israelis police 10 or military personnel, it was considered as an invasion of that 11 sacred ground; yes. 12 Q. And fighting broke out? 13 A. I can't say fighting. I could say demonstration broke out 14 and -- 15 Q. Not on that day but subsequent to that, fighting did break 16 out in this area, right? 17 A. Fighting never stopped in that area, Mr. Morvillo, so I 18 mean -- but, you know, it was -- it was hotter than ever in 19 that part of the world, yes. 20 Q. Many people were killed as a result of the fighting? 21 A. Many Palestinians were killed, yes. 22 Q. And do you know what day the fighting actually flared up? 23 Was it the same day as the visit or the next day? 24 A. I am not quite sure. I know it was, that whole period was 25 just from first day, you know, there were demonstrations, they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10972 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 were shooting by the Israelis, you know, they started first 2 with rubber bullets and, you know, they went with other -- they 3 used other methods. 4 But, you know, the exact date I really don't know. I 5 know it's at the end of September this whole thing just -- the 6 whole thing, you know, it just started. 7 Q. Well, as you said, it had been going on for a while but 8 this was a flare-up in the fighting, right? 9 A. It was just -- yes. 10 Q. And you told us on direct about the horrible event where a 11 young Palestinian child was killed in a crossfire by Israeli 12 soldiers, right, and that was caught on videotape? 13 A. Yes, I seen that on the, you know, I mean in life on TV, 14 actually. 15 Q. So you saw it as it happened? 16 A. Yes, it was broadcast live on TV for the first time. That 17 was -- that's why the effect of it was so -- was so big and -- 18 Q. When did that happen? 19 A. That exact date? I'm not -- I'm not quite sure when the 20 exact date was. 21 Q. It happened on September 30th, right, 2000? 22 A. Huh? 23 Q. It happened on September 30th of 2000? 24 A. It could be, yes. 25 Q. And when you saw that you were outraged? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10973 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. I was outraged, yes. 2 This has affected me very much, you know. I mean I 3 had a son -- my kids were almost the same age and, you know, it 4 really affected me, yes. But not just, I cannot just say that 5 incident. You know, the whole thing it was -- it was very 6 emotional, you know. I mean, especially for the first time 7 in -- I mean, that I could remember to see something live on TV 8 like that. 9 Q. It was all over the media, right? 10 A. It was, yes, it was all over. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I have a moment? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. As far as the timing of this shooting, Mr. Sattar, it 14 happened within days of Sharon's visit to Al-Aqsa, right? It 15 didn't happen before the visit? 16 A. Of the shooting of this boy? 17 Q. This boy. 18 A. Yes, it happened, you know, the theory it did not happen, 19 but within two days is what I stated before -- within two days 20 of demonstrations there were 72 Palestinians already dead and 21 it was broadcast everywhere. You know, you seen people, 22 hundreds of people who were injured so this is how I say, you 23 know, it was a very emotional time. 24 Q. And in response to this violence in the Middle East, you 25 and Rifa'i Taha concluded that you should write and publish a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10974 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 powerful statement in Sheikh Abdel Rahman's name, right? 2 A. Yes, I believe there was a conversation between me and 3 Rifa'i Taha and he said, you know, it will be good to revive 4 the Sheikh's name, and -- 5 Q. And you decided to use his name because people would pay 6 attention if the statement came from Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, 7 right? 8 A. Yes, as the suggestion -- the suggestion was to write 9 something from the Sheikh's name but not only for that occasion 10 but, you know, on a regular basis. 11 That was his suggestion, you know, and put it on the 12 outside just to keep the Sheikh's name in public. 13 Q. Well, you knew that if Ahmed Sattar said kill Jews 14 everywhere the media probably wouldn't pick it up, right? 15 A. The media probably would not -- 16 Q. Pick it up. 17 A. Probably they will. I mean -- at least in my community, 18 I'm known in my community. But if anybody else? 19 Q. It wouldn't be broadcast all over the Middle East, right? 20 A. No, probably it will not be broadcast all over the Middle 21 East. 22 Q. Now, you and Rifa'i Taha discussed this fatwah over the 23 telephone, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you directed Rifa'i Taha to draft the statement and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10975 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 send it to you, right? 2 A. I directed Rifa'i Taha to -- you know, as what I said, I 3 said there was a conversation, I believe, the day before and, 4 you know, and on that day, yes, I spoke to him and I told him, 5 yes, write it. 6 Q. And you told him to do it as quickly as possible, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And the telephone call on which you told him to draft the 9 fatwah is in evidence in this case, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 12 Exhibit 1179X, in evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, I have put on the screen Government 15 Exhibit 1179X; do you see that on your screen? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. This is a transcript of a telephone conversation with 18 yourself and Rifa'i Taha on October 3rd of 2000, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And at line 7 you state: I couldn't hear you at all. 21 Okay, fine. Rely on God and go ahead with the issue we 22 discussed yesterday. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And he says: Which is? 25 And you said: Which is writing the eh, writing eh, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10976 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 writing something. 2 And Rifa'i Taha says, at line 11: Ah, really, you 3 swear? 4 And on the next page, page 2 of Government Exhibit 5 1179X you say: Yes, yes. 6 And he says: God bless you. 7 And you say: Rely on God and do it. But it has to be 8 as soon as possible, meaning I want to see it tomorrow, God 9 willing. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Right? 12 After this call you spoke with Rifa'i Taha two or 13 three more times that day, October 3rd of 2000, right? 14 A. Probably, yes. 15 Q. And he told you that he was continuing to work on writing 16 the statement, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And those calls are in evidence here, are they not? 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 21 Exhibit 1180 and 1181, in order? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. MORVILLO: In evidence. 24 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a phone conversation between you, 25 Government Exhibit 1180X, on October 3rd of 2000, at 3:17 in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10977 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 the afternoon; and directing your attention to page 3 at line 2 10, Rifa'i Taha says: Okay, I am almost finished with the 3 man's statement but I just got busy with the program. 4 He's referring to 'the man' is Omar Abdel Rahman, 5 right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then Government Exhibit 1181X, also on October 3rd of 8 2000, a call between yourself and Rifa'i Taha and others. And 9 directing your attention to page 5 of that transcript, at the 10 bottom, Rifa'i Taha says: Hmm, okay, fine. All right, Sheikh, 11 you will get mail from me tonight or tomorrow morning. 12 And then, continuing on to the other page, onto the 13 next page which is page 6 of Government Exhibit 1181X you 14 respond: God willing. Shall I call the brother and have him 15 prepare it? 16 And Rifa'i Taha says to you: Ha. Ah, which brother. 17 And you say: Eh, eh, Abu A... Yassir. 18 And Taha says: No, no. When it is complete. 19 And you say: So, we send it to him when it is 20 complete. 21 And Taha says: Yeah, regular as if it is eh, it 22 doesn't work to tell him. 23 And you say on line 7: I want it by Friday so it can 24 be read. 25 And Taha responds: Okay, no problem, he can SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10978 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 distribute it in a minute, he is good at that. The advantage 2 of this thing is, once something is dictated, it can be issued 3 right away. 4 You are talking about Yassir Al-Sirri here, right? 5 A. Yes. The name 'Yassir' is Yassir Al-Sirri; yes. 6 Q. And what you had started to say at line 3 was Abu Ammar? 7 A. Yes. I was going to say Abu Ammar but I said Yassir, yes. 8 Q. You said Yassir? 9 A. Yes, that's his name. 10 Q. And Abu Ammar and Yassir Al-Sirri are the same person? 11 A. Yes, they're the same person. 12 Q. He is the person that runs the Islamic Observation Center? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. MORVILLO: May I have a moment, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. The next day, October 4th of 2000, you received an e-mail 17 from Rifa'i Taha containing the ghost-written fatwah, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you read it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you made some small changes to it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then you told Al-Sirri about the fatwah, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And, in fact, you read it to him over the telephone? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10979 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And the call in which you read him the fatwah is in 3 evidence in this case, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 6 Exhibit 1182X, in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, is Government Exhibit 1182X in evidence on your 9 screen? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And this is a transcript of the telephone conversation that 12 you had with Al-Sirri on October 4th of 2000? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Directing your attention to page 2 of that transcript, at 15 line 17 you state: Yes, I am going to send you a report, if 16 God is willing, and you publicize it, God the Almighty is 17 willing. 18 And Al-Sirri responds: Okay, good news. God is 19 willing. 20 And then you said: Okay. 21 And he says: Where is it from? Where from? 22 And then on page 3 at the top, line 1, you state: 23 From here, where we are. 24 And Al-Sirri says: Ah. 25 And you said: From the doctor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10980 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 You are referring to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And Al-Sirri says: Okay, good. 4 And you state: Regarding the latest incidents, the 5 Palestinian events. 6 And he says: Yes. 7 Right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You are referring to the fatwah? That's the statement you 10 are talking about, right? 11 A. Yes. I'm telling him I'm going to send him, yes, the 12 fatwah that Rifa'i Taha wrote; yes. 13 Q. And then, directing your attention to page 8 of Government 14 Exhibit 1182X, Yassir Al-Sirri at line 12 says: Okay, fine. 15 So, do you want it to be directly distributed... 16 And you said. I want it, I want it... 17 And he says: Or do you want it to be distributed and 18 put in the website. 19 And you stated, in response, at line 15: To be 20 distributed and put in the site for the news agencies. 21 What you are talking about here is the fatwah, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you are talking about, you are telling Mr. Al-Sirri 24 that you want it to be posted on the IOC website and you want 25 it to be distributed to news agencies? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10981 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And by IOC I'm referring to the Islamic Observation Center, 3 right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. At line 16 Al-Sirri states: Okay, I am asking you a 6 question and you are not paying attention, this is what I am 7 getting at... 8 And then he continues: It is going to go everywhere, 9 don't you worry... 10 And you said: Yes, yes. 11 And he responds: It is going to reach every location, 12 and it is going to get extra attention as well. Meaning that 13 wherever it goes, we are going to make certain that it gets the 14 necessary attention. 15 And you said: Yes. 16 And he says to you: My point is... what I -- I'm 17 saying... 18 At line 7 he continues: Do we put it out as a 19 statement? Or put it as a statement from the Observation 20 Center, carrying a statement from Sheikh Omar? 21 And you respond, at line 9: No, as an announcement 22 from the Observation Center, that includes a statement for 23 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 24 And he responds: Okay. 25 And you said, at line 12: In other words: "We've SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10982 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 received this statement from the United States of America, from 2 the honorable Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman." 3 And Al-Sirri says: Okay, fine. 4 You're talking about the fatwah that Rifa'i Taha 5 drafted, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10983 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Then during this conversation, starting on page 14 of the 2 transcript of Government Exhibit 1182X, you begin to read him 3 the fatwah that you are going to send to him, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And it is your understanding that what is in italics in 6 this transcript are Quranic verses? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Then you read him the text of the fatwah. Starting at line 9 11 you read: These barbaric acts committed by the swines and 10 apes are not surprising. They killed the prophets and they are 11 known to be bloodshedders. Their ancient and modern history 12 are their best witness. 13 By the swines and apes, you're referring to Jewish 14 people, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. At line 24 you continue reading: I, as a Muslim scholar, 17 and because of the limited time, I appeal this -- I appeal to 18 my brothers, the scholars all over our Islamic world. In 19 numbers, 1, you state: It is numbered. And you then continue 20 reading the fatwah: From our Islamic world, to portray their 21 role and issue a unanimous fatwah calling on the Islamic nation 22 to mandate the killing the Jews wherever they are, 23 unintelligible, and wherever they are found. They have 24 occupied our land, they defiled our holy places, killed our 25 men, and destroyed our homes. Therefore, it is the duty of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10984 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 every capable Muslim to wage the Jihad against them. 2 Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That's at page 15 of Government Exhibit 1182X, right, 5 Mr. Sattar? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then on page 16 of Government Exhibit 1182X you got 8 interrupted during your conversation by another call at line 4, 9 right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And then you continued reading. At line 7 you read: "And 12 if the people of this country are incapable of performing this 13 ordinance, then this becomes the duty of other Muslims. And it 14 has been proved conclusively that our people in Palestine 15 cannot undertake this task on their own, especially after 16 having sacrificed, and they are still sacrificing tens, and 17 even hundreds of martyrs. Hence, the Jihad today is the duty 18 of the entire nation until Palestine and the Aqsa mosque are 19 liberated, until the Jews are driven to their graves or out to 20 the countries where they had come from. 21 Did I read that correctly, Mr. Sattar? 22 A. Yes, you did, Mr. Morvillo. 23 Q. Then you continued reading at line 16, No. 2: The Muslim 24 youth everywhere, especially in Palestine, Egypt, Syria, 25 Lebanon, and Jordan, as nations neighboring the Aqsa mosque, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10985 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 they have to fight the Jews by all possible means of Jihad, 2 either by killing them as individuals or by targeting their 3 interests and their advocates, as much as they can. 4 By advocates, you were referring to those who support 5 the Jews, right? 6 A. This is what it says in there, yes. 7 Q. Continuing at line 20: For God almighty said: Fight and 8 slay the unbelievers wherever ye find and seize them, beleaguer 9 them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war, 10 meaning to assassinate them, wherever you find them. 11 Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Yes you did. 13 Q. Displaying page 17 of Government Exhibit 1182X in evidence, 14 at line 30 you continue reading: Our Muslim brothers, trust in 15 God, lift up the banner of Jihad, and my God be with you, he 16 will reward you. Your brother, Omar Abdel Rahman, eh, eh, in 17 the USA's prisons, and a scholar of the Azhar. 18 That's how the fatwah ended, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, you claim, Mr. Sattar, that when you were involved in 21 disseminating and drafting and publishing this fatwah that you 22 were just crying out in response to violence in the Middle 23 East, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you testified that you really did not intend for anyone SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10986 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 to take it literally and go out and kill people, right? 2 A. No, I did not intend to do that. 3 Q. But it is a fact, is it not, Mr. Sattar, that you drafted 4 this statement with the leader of a terrorist network? 5 A. Yes, it is a fact. 6 Q. A person that you knew was in Afghanistan with Osama Bin 7 Laden? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. A person that you knew was considered by the United States 10 to be a threat to national security? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. A person that you knew who had written a book attempting to 13 justify the murder of civilians? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. A person that you knew who was trying to contact the 16 military leader of the Islamic Group in Egypt? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And a person who you knew who had signed Osama Bin Laden's 19 fatwah, calling for the murder of Americans, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You wanted people to take to the streets all over the world 22 and kill Jewish people everywhere, right? 23 A. No, I did not. 24 Q. That's what the statement says, Mr. Sattar. 25 A. Mr. Morvillo, as what I said, it was a cryout. I was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10987 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 screaming. I was crying. If anybody was being killed, it was 2 the Palestinians. What I saw was enough for me to cry. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar -- 4 A. I did not intend to kill anybody. And if you look at the 5 conversation before that, before this writing of these ugly and 6 hateful words, you will see that the intent was just to revive 7 the Sheikh's name and also the emotion involved when I seen it. 8 When I seen those words I should have thought more careful 9 about it. But I was in a very -- I was very emotional. 10 Q. Mr. Sattar -- 11 A. Mr. Morvillo, let me continue, please. I was very 12 emotional. I read these words. I should have paid more 13 attention to it. I should have never let them out, but I did. 14 In eight years, you've been listening to my conversations. You 15 have been watching me. The government been all over me. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I'm objecting at this 17 point. 18 THE COURT: I believe the question has been answered. 19 Q. Mr. Sattar, people cry all the time about atrocities in the 20 world, but they don't issue fatwahs in the name of convicted 21 terrorist leaders, do they, calling for mass genocide? 22 A. If you watch what's gone on in the Middle East, this is an 23 everyday event, fatwahs being issued by Jewish rabbis calling 24 for the killing of Muslims, right here in the United States. 25 It was fatwahs here to say, pay a dollar to kill an Arab. We SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10988 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 receive many words like this in our community. This is 2 something going on. As what I always say to my kids, sticks 3 and stones may break bones, but words will never hurt you. I 4 did not mean to hurt anybody, Mr. Morvillo. I did not mean to 5 hurt anybody. 6 Q. But these were words by a convicted terrorist leader that 7 you issued to get an impact calling for mass genocide, yes or 8 no, Mr. Sattar? 9 A. I cannot just say yes or no. I did not mean to mass 10 genocide anybody. I did not mean to kill anybody. As I said, 11 I was crying out loud, Mr. Morvillo. 12 Q. After you finished disseminating this fatwah, you resumed 13 trying to connect Rifa'i Taha and Atia, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And in fact, Rifa'i Taha told you to tell Atia about the 16 fatwah, right? 17 A. Rifa'i Taha told -- yes. 18 Q. In fact, he told you that he wanted to tell Atia to take 19 courage, the man issued a fatwah, you are supposed to go by it, 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And in fact, as you testified on your direct examination, 23 you did tell the leader of the Islamic Group military wing in 24 Egypt about the fatwah mandating the murder of Jews and their 25 supporters, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10989 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. I mentioned to him, yes. 2 Q. And then you learned that the Islamic Group had issued a 3 statement in which it stated that it was going to carry out 4 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's fatwah to kill Jews, right? 5 A. Yes, I read that, yes. 6 Q. And that meant that the Islamic Group was stating that it 7 was going to go out and start killing Jews and their 8 supporters, right? 9 A. No. It meant just, you know, another thing, you know, that 10 the Islamic Group is issuing -- like I told you, they have been 11 issuing in sequence like this, threats, things like this, on 12 some events. But I took it as a propaganda, is how I took it. 13 Q. But they stated that they were going to carry out Sheikh 14 Omar Abdel Rahman's fatwah mandating the killing of Jews, 15 right? 16 A. Yes, they said that. 17 Q. And Rifa'i Taha in fact is the person who told you about 18 this statement, right? 19 A. I am not sure if he is the one who told me or I seen it in 20 the newspaper. 21 Q. But it was published in the newspaper, right? 22 A. I seen it. 23 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, would this be a convenient 24 time to take a break? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10990 4CGMSAT2 1 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for ten minutes. 2 Please, please remember my continuing instructions. Please 3 don't talk about this case at all. Always remember to keep an 4 open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I've 5 instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to 6 begin your deliberations. 7 Have a good break. See you shortly. 8 All rise, please. 9 (Jury not present) 10 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 11 We will take a break. By the way, when jurors come in 12 in the morning, they greet me with good morning. At least one 13 juror also mouths good morning, which wouldn't be reflected in 14 the transcript, so I bring that to your attention. 15 MR. PAUL: Juror No. 4. 16 THE COURT: No. More than that. 17 MR. PAUL: That's the one I heard. 18 THE COURT: See you shortly. 19 (Recess) 20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, just before the break, your 21 Honor, Mr. Morvillo asked the following questions. And then 22 you learned -- 23 THE COURT: Hold on one moment, please. 24 Please be seated, all. 25 MR. TIGAR: And then you learned that the Islamic SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10991 4CGMSAT2 1 Group had issued a statement in which it stated that it was 2 going to carry out Sheikh Omar Abdel's Rahman's fatwah to kill 3 Jews, right? The witness answered yes. 4 Unless I'm mistaken, that question to which Mr. Sattar 5 agreed is based on Government Exhibit 1189X, which was offered 6 only as to Counts 2 and 3 and cannot be used against 7 Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry for the truth of any matter asserted. 8 We would therefore request that the jurors be 9 instructed that any testimony about any statement that the 10 Islamic Group said was going to carry out the fatwah is not 11 received for the truth as to Ms. Stewart and Mr. Yousry. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, it was a question and an 14 answer. I didn't reference the transcript. I didn't quote 15 from the transcript. There is no reason for a limiting 16 instruction, in the government's view. 17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the witness simply said he 18 heard the hearsay. That was the question and answer. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Therefore, your Honor, it is admitted 20 for his state of mind. 21 MR. TIGAR: Which is exactly my objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Then I'll tell the jury that the witness's 23 testimony is admitted with respect to what he heard. What he 24 read is admitted solely with respect to his state of mind. 25 MR. TIGAR: And not for the truth of anything that he SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10992 4CGMSAT2 1 admitted be read or heard, at least with respect to Ms. Stewart 2 and Mr. Yousry. Because that was the -- 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government would object 4 to that instruction. There has been an enormous amount of 5 testimony about what people have read and what people have seen 6 and what people have heard and what people knew, and you have 7 not parsed and given limiting instructions every time there has 8 been that kind of testimony. And I think it is inappropriate 9 for the Court to highlight this one section of testimony and 10 give that limiting instruction here. It is contained in the 11 answer anyway. What he said was, that's what I read. 12 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the reason that it is 13 important is not simply the kill the Jews inflammatory part, 14 but that because in fact the conversation in question is with 15 Mr. Taha, and Taha is telling Mr. Sattar about something that 16 he read. 17 So the very idea that this is some IG statement or 18 that it has any dignity or truth to it is extremely attenuated 19 because it is Mr. Taha saying that he read something or heard 20 something in the media. So it comes to us twice burdened. And 21 that, I respectfully suggest, was the reason for the limiting 22 instruction in the first place. 23 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the reference to Rifa'i 24 Taha was that he was the person who told you about the 25 statement. That was the question. And the answer was: I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10993 4CGMSAT2 1 believe I don't recall. The answer was: I am not sure if he 2 is the one who told me or I seen it in the newspaper. 3 "Q But it was published in the newspaper, right? 4 "A I seen it." 5 So his testimony is all about what he read in the 6 newspaper. The jury has been repeatedly instructed about 7 newspaper. 8 THE COURT: I'll give the instruction that the 9 testimony as to what he read is admissible solely with respect 10 to the witness's state of mind and not for the truth of any of 11 the matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart and 12 Mr. Yousry. And it is not a fair response to say that the jury 13 has been repeatedly instructed. 14 In going over the charge conference, I rejected a 15 suggestion that I should give a blanket instruction to the jury 16 with respect to newspaper articles. And the government agreed 17 with that because, as I have repeatedly said, you have to look 18 at all of the circumstances with respect to individual 19 articles, some of which have been adopted admissions or 20 sufficiently identified as coconspirator statements, alleged 21 coconspirator statements, or some have gone in without 22 objection. 23 There have been other arguments with respect to the 24 possible other grounds for admissibility of specific articles, 25 and I dealt with each of those issues when they came up SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10994 4CGMSAT2 1 specifically. 2 So when an objection is raised, I deal with it on the 3 merits. And I have dealt with each of the objections 4 carefully, and I believe that the jury can follow limiting 5 instructions with the same care with which I give them when 6 asked. So I'll give the instruction I was asked to give at 7 this point. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, will that instruction include 9 the statement that it is admissible only as to Counts 2 and 3? 10 I would ask that that be included. That's been -- 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the fatwah is not related 12 to Counts 2 and 3. That's in evidence against all defendants. 13 MR. TIGAR: To the extent the instruction is based on 14 Government Exhibit 1189X, that was part of the Government 15 Exhibit 1189X instruction. I take no position, however -- 16 THE COURT: His testimony was broader and not limited 17 to 1189X. 18 MR. RUHNKE: My recollection is faulty, your Honor. I 19 apologize. 20 THE COURT: That's okay. 21 The instruction will be the testimony that the witness 22 gave just before the break as to what he read is admitted 23 solely for the witness's state of mind and not for the truth of 24 the matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 25 Satisfactory? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10995 4CGMSAT2 1 If Mr. Sattar could take the stand. 2 Mr. Fletcher brought to my attention that the jury 3 administrator brought to his attention that there is the 4 possibility of a snowstorm over the weekend. So we have to 5 deal with a number for the jurors to call and I can deal with 6 that later on in the day. I just wanted to bring that to your 7 attention. 8 Let's bring in the jury. 9 (Jury present) 10 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 11 Mr. Fletcher. 12 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're 13 still under oath. 14 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 15 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, just before the 16 break the testimony by the witness about what he read is 17 admitted solely for the witness's state of mind and not for the 18 truth of the matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or 19 Mr. Yousry. 20 Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 21 BY MR. MORVILLO: 22 Q. Directing your attention, Mr. Sattar, to October 6 of 2000? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did there come a time on that date when you had a telephone 25 conversation with Yousef Odeh about someone distributing Sheikh SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10996 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Omar Abdel Rahman's fatwah? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is that call in evidence? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 6 Government Exhibit 1185X in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I have a minute? 9 THE COURT: Sure. 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, can you see Government Exhibit 1185X on the 11 screen? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And this is a call between yourself and Yousef Odeh? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On October 6, 2000? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And at line 2 Mr. Odeh says to you: Yeah, a person was 18 distributing a pamphlet, and Sheikh Mohamed Mousa gave it to 19 me. He told me, what is that? Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman wants 20 to kill the Zionists every where? And then in response it says 21 in brackets raging. You say to him: Tell him, tell him, tell 22 him -- in English you say, to shut his fucking mouth, okay? 23 And you testified on direct, right, that you don't 24 curse very often? 25 A. I don't curse very often. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10997 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And your point was that you were very upset? 2 A. Yes. The whole situation was just what I said before, this 3 whole period was just very upsetting for me is I was said. I 4 was glued to the TV watching everything. Just a very emotional 5 period. 6 Q. It was your understanding that there was another Sheikh who 7 was not condoning Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's statement, and you 8 were telling him that he should shut his fucking mouth? 9 A. This is what I was saying, yes. 10 Q. Now, at page 3 of that transcript, Mr. Sattar, at line 3, 11 Yousef Odeh said to you: He told me, wasn't Sheikh Omar saying 12 that you can't do anything in America, because it will violate 13 the oath of the visa? Then I told him that Zionists are 14 everywhere. You can't kill them in America. 15 What is the oath of the visa? 16 A. Once, when you have -- when you as an individual, Muslim, 17 come to a place, whether somebody's house or somebody else's 18 country or any place that you enter, the people who let you in, 19 you should not do anything bad to them. This is how I 20 understand. 21 Q. When you're a guest in someone else's house or someone 22 else's country, you shouldn't kill people there? 23 A. Shouldn't do anything, kill them, steal their money, do 24 anything bad to them. 25 Q. Incidentally, Mr. Sattar, October 6 was a Friday, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10998 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. It was a Friday, yes. 2 Q. And Friday in Islam is a day of prayer? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, there came a time in October of 2000 when 5 you actually spoke yourself with Alaa Abdul Raziq Atia? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And then there was a conversation that you had with Rifa'i 8 Taha in which you told him about your conversation with Atia, 9 right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And the conversation with Rifa'i Taha is in evidence here, 12 right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In fact, it is in evidence -- transcript of that telephone 15 call is in evidence twice, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You put a different translation than the government's 18 translation into evidence in your case, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And basically the dispute between the two transcripts 21 really boils down to what it is that you told Rifa'i Taha about 22 your understanding about something that Atia had said to you, 23 is that correct? 24 A. My understanding -- 25 Q. The dispute between the two transcripts, the difference SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10999 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 between the two transcripts boils down to how it transcribes 2 what you said to Rifa'i Taha about something Atia said to you? 3 A. Yes. The government just added a word there that was never 4 there or they translated -- I never used that word, so that 5 was -- 6 Q. Let's look at the two transcripts. 7 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 8 Government Exhibit 1192X in evidence? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I believe this telephone 11 call has a limiting instruction. 12 THE COURT: This telephone call, ladies and gentlemen, 13 is admitted solely with respect to Counts 2 and 3 of the 14 indictment and it is not admitted for the truth of any of the 15 matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Actually, your Honor, I apologize. 17 What I was referring to was 1194X, not 1192X, but 1194 does get 18 that same limiting instruction, as does 1192. 19 May I display 1194X? 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Both 1192X and 1194X are 21 subject to the instruction, and you had mentioned 1192X, but 22 now you want to display 1194X? 23 MR. MORVILLO: I had meant to mention 1194, but both 24 of them do get the limiting instruction, just so there is no 25 confusion. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11000 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: That's the limiting instruction, ladies 2 and gentlemen, with respect to both Government Exhibits 1192 3 and 1194X. And the government can display 1194, Government 4 Exhibit 1194X in evidence. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is Government Exhibit 1194X on your 6 screen. Is it there? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. This is a telephone call that occurred on October 11, 2000? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And it is between yourself and Rifa'i Taha? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Directing your attention to page 15 of this transcript, at 13 line 17 you stated to Rifa'i Taha: I only spoke to Muntasir a 14 couple of words. He told me: This brother got out of the 15 hospital and so, say hello to him -- peace be upon you brother, 16 how are you doing -- may the peace of God be upon you, too. 17 How are you -- then he gave me the other brother. 18 Muntasir is not Muntasir Al-Zayyat, right? 19 A. No. That was a man, he introduced me and -- Atia 20 introduced me on the phone and he said his name was Muntasir 21 and he just come out of the hospital, but I understand it was 22 coming out of jail. 23 Q. You understood that Muntasir had just been in prison and he 24 had just gotten out? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11001 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You spoke to Muntasir for a few minutes and you told Rifa'i 2 Taha, and at line 21 Rifa'i Taha says: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And 3 then you said at line 22: But I had a feeling that the other 4 brother is eager for things. I mean, his words show that he 5 has the ability and the readiness. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you're referring to Atia, right? 8 A. I'm referring to Atia, yes. 9 Q. This is where we have the dispute, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Ahmed Sattar 12 Exhibit 18-T in evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. AS-18-T in evidence. 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you see, this is the first page of AS-18-T? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And this is the transcript that corresponds to this 17 telephone call that we have been talking about, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And it is dated October 11, 2000? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Directing your attention to page 19 of AS-18-T where the 22 arrow is, do you see the arrow, Mr. Sattar? 23 A. I'm sorry? 24 Q. Do you see where I put the arrow? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11002 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You state: The other brother is the one who said all this 2 talk. However, while talking to the other brother, I sensed 3 that he was -- I mean -- I mean -- eh. And Rifa'i Taha, who is 4 identified here as Abu Yasir says: I see, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you said: Anxious about things. And then you said, I 7 mean judging. And Rifa'i Taha says: I see. And you said, 8 continuing at the top of page 20: I mean, judging from the way 9 he spoke, that he had, I mean -- eh -- eh -- he had the 10 predisposition and the readiness to the -- to the -- to the 11 point where I - and then Abu Yasir says: I see. Then you say: 12 I mean, I felt that he -- that he was going to open up. So I 13 cut him off. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So there is a dispute between whether you said eager or 16 anxious, right? 17 A. There was a dispute between whether I said eager or 18 anxious, and another dispute. 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. The word ability or predisposition. 21 Q. Well, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Sattar, that the 22 conversation between you and Atia that you're describing to 23 Rifa'i Taha is also in evidence in this case, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I now display SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11003 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Government Exhibit 1192X in evidence? 2 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, I have already 3 given you the limiting instruction with respect to that 4 transcript and recording. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is 1192X. Is that on your screen? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And it is a call on October 11 of 2000? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Which is the same date of the call that you had with Rifa'i 10 Taha, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And this is the telephone conversation between yourself 13 and, among others, Atia? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Directing your attention to page 13 of Government Exhibit 16 1192X -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- Atia says to you at line 9: I tried to talk to Abu 19 Ahmed. 20 It is your understanding that Abu Ahmed is a reference 21 to Rifa'i Taha? 22 A. Yes. This is how he called him, yes. 23 Q. And he then continues: The engineer got mad. 24 The engineer is in reference to Salah Hashim? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11004 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And he said, meaning Salah Hashim, said: "If you speak to 2 him, I will never talk to you again, consider yourself in a 3 different category." Something like that. Right. 4 Did I read that correctly? 5 A. Yes. This is what he said. 6 Q. So Atia was telling you that Salah Hashim didn't want Atia 7 to speak to Abu Yasir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then you responded saying: That's no good at all. God 10 knows that what the engineer says to Abu Ahmed is completely 11 different. I swear to God, it is distressing that he talks to 12 you like that. Atia responds: Let me tell you this, 13 Mr. Ahmed. And you said yes. And he says: Please, do not say 14 this to Abu Ahmed. 15 What he is telling you there, you understood, is he 16 didn't want you to tell Rifa'i Taha that Salah Hashim told Atia 17 not to speak with him? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And then you say at line 18: Listen, for your information, 20 I try as much as I can to achieve unification. Atia says: God 21 willing. And then you say: This is what I try to do. And 22 then Atia says to you: Let me tell you something. And you 23 said yes. And Atia says: God willing, we have very big 24 surprises. They will terminate all these things. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11005 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you respond to him on the next page, page 14 at line 1, 2 saying: Listen, again, for your information, my line is not 3 safe, so be eh -- and he says okay. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When he said to you, we have big surprises, it sounds like 6 he is saying that he is eager and ready to do something, 7 doesn't it? 8 A. No. It sounds like he is eager and wanted to talk to me 9 about things that I didn't want to hear it. 10 Q. So you told him that your line was not safe? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what you meant by that when you said that to Atia was 13 that, hey, my phone is probably wiretapped? 14 A. Yes. Also, I meant I didn't want to hear it. This was an 15 easy way just to cut him off. I do not want to hear this. 16 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, there came a time when you learned that 17 Atia was "in the hospital," right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. By that, you understood that he was either under arrest or 20 something worse had happened to him, that he had been killed, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And, in fact, you subsequently learned that Atia had been 24 killed by the Egyptian police, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11006 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And in your testimony on direct you blamed Atia's death on 2 Mustafa Hamza and Rifa'i Taha, right? 3 A. Yes, I said that. 4 Q. Isn't it a fact that after you learned that Atia died you 5 told Yassir Al-Sirri that you were 99 percent certain that the 6 reason for Atia's death was due to the fact that your telephone 7 was wiretapped? 8 A. My telephone was wiretapped, could be. 9 Q. In fact, it turned out that you were right? 10 A. Yes, that I was right, yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 12 Exhibit 1205X in evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. MORVILLO: May I have a minute? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, this exhibit also has a 17 limiting instruction attached to it. 18 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this exhibit and the 19 underlying recording, just to remind you, is admitted solely 20 with respect to Counts 2 and 3 of the indictment and cannot be 21 considered for the truth of the matters asserted with respect 22 to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you see Government Exhibit 1205X? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And this is a transcript of a telephone conversation that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11007 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 you had with Yassir Al-Sirri on October 23 of 2000? 2 A. Yes, this is what it is. 3 Q. And this is after Atia has been killed, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Directing your attention to page 9 of Government Exhibit 6 1205X -- 7 A. What line? 8 Q. I'm sorry. I just said page number, page 9. You're 9 talking about Atia on this page, right? At the top Yassir 10 Al-Sirri says: But was he calling from the same city? You 11 said: I don't know. I don't know where he was calling from. 12 And Al-Sirri says: Did you know that he was in Aswan? And you 13 said yes. Previously you testified that you knew that Atia was 14 in Aswan, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And Al-Sirri says: All right. My question is this. How 17 did they get them in Aswan? And what he is saying is, how did 18 the Egyptian police find Atia is Aswan, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you said: Possibly through me? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And Al-Sirri responds: No. Abu Omar, how is that? Then 23 you respond by saying: What do you mean? "How"? Everything 24 is in the air. 25 What you're telling him is you think your phone is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11008 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 wiretapped, right? 2 A. What I'm telling him, you know, he is saying -- he is 3 denying that I am saying it is possibly through my telephone, 4 yes, and he is saying no, Abu Omar, how is that. He cannot 5 believe that. I says: What do you mean, how? Everything is 6 in the air. Everything we speak is openly on the phone. The 7 phone could be intercepted by, you know -- could be wiretapped 8 or intercepted by anybody. 9 Q. Right. And your phone was wiretapped, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And at line 9 he says to you: So it may not be through 12 you, it can be just as well through -- don't make me -- when 13 you say "through," it is another problem unless you make an 14 announcement saying, "nobody is to call me on the phone." 15 Al-Sirri continues saying: Supposedly, it can be -- it is 16 possible it was through somewhere else. And then you respond, 17 at line 15: And it's also a big possibility it is from here, 18 because the brother called and gave me his phone number, the 19 place where he is staying here. And Al-Sirri says: There. 20 And you say: Yeah, there. He said: "When Mr. So and so 21 calls, give him this phone number." 22 What you're talking about there is when you spoke to 23 people over the phone you exchanged telephone numbers and, as a 24 result, if your phone was being monitored, people would know 25 the telephone numbers of the place where people were? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11009 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. I'm talking about this specific incident with Atia, that he 2 give me the phone number or the phone, so it could be the 3 American authority passing to the Egyptian authority, yes. 4 Q. So what you're saying is, right, once they had Atia's 5 telephone number they could give that to the Egyptian 6 authorities and the Egyptian authorities could then trace the 7 phone number and get a location and that's how he would have 8 been found? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. On page 11 of Government Exhibit 1205X, you continue to 11 talk about this. And at line 11 you state: For your 12 information, 99 percent I suspect it can be from here. And 13 Al-Sirri says: You can't say. And then you say: What do you 14 mean I can't? 15 You're talking about the fact that 99 percent are 16 convinced that it is because of your telephone that Atia was 17 killed, right? 18 A. I am talking about that, 99 percent, the information about 19 Atia was passed from here to the Egyptian authorities, yes. 20 Q. Based on what was heard over your telephone? 21 A. Based on what was heard over my telephone or any other 22 means. Could be anything. 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, you're familiar with the fact that Yassir 24 Al-Sirri published a statement on his website saying that at 25 the time Atia was killed he was planning on conducting a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11010 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 terrorist attack on tourists on October 24 of 2000 in Aswan? 2 A. Am I familiar with a statement from Al-Sirri, no, I am not. 3 Q. On his website. You're not familiar with that statement? 4 A. I'm not familiar with that statement. I can't recall that. 5 Q. Do you remember the e-mail that Mustafa Hamza sent out 6 after Atia's death that was introduced into evidence in this 7 case? 8 A. The e-mail that Mustafa Hamza sent to whom? 9 Q. Sent out to the brothers about Atia's death. Do you 10 remember that e-mail? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And in that e-mail didn't Mustafa Hamza say that the 13 Islamic Observation Center reported that Atia was going to 14 conduct a terrorist operation on October 24 in Aswan? 15 A. He could say that. I am not quite sure. I cannot remember 16 exactly what was in that statement, but, you know, I really 17 don't know that the Islamic Observation Center issued anything 18 like that. I am not quite sure. I really don't know. 19 Q. You said you never read that statement, one published by 20 Al-Sirri on his website saying that Atia was preparing to 21 conduct a terrorist attack on tourists in Aswan, Egypt on 22 October 24 of 2000. 23 A. I don't recall that Yassir Al-Sirri wrote a statement to 24 that effect, but I recall reading in the newspapers that this 25 was something to that effect was issued by the Egyptian SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11011 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 government, not by Yassir Al-Sirri. I don't believe he said 2 that. I believe this was official -- the official statement by 3 the Egyptian government. They said that they killed him 4 because he was going to do such and such and such. This is 5 what I recall seeing or reading. 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11012 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Mr. Sattar, we discussed -- you testified on your direct 2 examination about a number of wills that Sheikh Omar Abdel 3 Rahman -- 4 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we know the number of the 5 exhibits to which counsel is referring, referred in the last 6 series of questions? 7 MR. MORVILLO: You are talking about the e-mail? 8 MR. TIGAR: Yes. 9 May I confer with Mr. Morvillo? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 (Counsel conferring) 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I just have a brief 13 moment? 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 (Counsel conferring) 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, that was a reference to 17 Government Exhibit 2014 which does get the limiting 18 instruction. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 Ladies and gentlemen, any of that last series of 21 questions and answers, with respect to the e-mail or the 22 website was admitted solely for, to the extent that there was 23 any testimony, can be considered solely with respect to the 24 witness' state of mind and cannot be considered for the truth 25 of any of the matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11013 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Mr. Yousry. 2 And, as I said, it was admitted, to the extent that 3 there was any testimony, it was solely with respect to the 4 witness' knowledge, intent or state of mind. 5 And I also remind you that questions are never 6 evidence, it's only the answers that are evidence. 7 And, as I will repeat in the course of my final 8 instructions, if a witness is asked whether something refreshes 9 the witness' recollection and it doesn't refresh his 10 recollection, the fact that he is, or she is asked about 11 whether something refreshes their recollection doesn't make 12 that matter in evidence. It is always the answers, not the 13 questions, that are evidence. Okay? 14 Go ahead. 15 MR. MORVILLO: May I proceed, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, you testified on direct examination about 19 several wills that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman had, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And, I wanted to ask you about the one that was introduced 22 in evidence in the government's case relating to his statement 23 to kill Americans, okay? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. That statement from Sheikh Abdel Rahman in which he called SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11014 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 for the murder of Americans was contained on a tape recording 2 that was found in your apartment, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what you testified to on direct was that that tape you 5 obtained in connection with the Nasser Ahmed immigration 6 proceeding? 7 A. This was -- yes. 8 Q. And so, of course, you were familiar with the contents of 9 that tape recording, right? 10 A. I was. 11 Q. And you knew that, among other things on the statement, 12 Sheikh Abdel Rahman stated: 13 "You Muslims everywhere. Sever the ties of their 14 nation, tear them apart, ruin their economy, instigate against 15 their corporations, destroy their embassies, attack their 16 interests, sink their ships and shoot down their airplanes. 17 Kill them in land, at sea and in the air. Kill them wherever 18 you find them. Take them, surround them and lie in ambush for 19 them everywhere. Fight those infidels, treat them with 20 brutality. Fight them. 21 You are familiar with that statement, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you knew about that statement in 1999 when -- was it 24 Nasser Ahmed's hearing was in '99, was that when that happened? 25 '96? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11015 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. I'm not quite -- when Nasser what, when he was arrested or 2 released? 3 Q. When you took possession of the tape. 4 A. That was sometime in -- you know, through fighting his 5 case, I'm not quite sure. He was fighting from '96 until '99. 6 Q. There was a time in late 1998 when CNN got ahold of this 7 fatwah and asked some questions about it, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And so, at least by that time you had become familiar with 10 the contents of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's statement, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you also had, in your possession, a printout of, from 13 CNN of the will written in Arabic, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know who prepared that will? 16 A. Do I know who prepared -- 17 Q. That will. Who put it onto paper. 18 A. I am not -- I am not sure who did it. You know, I mean it 19 was, that piece of papers were given to me, you know, as what 20 says on it. I'm not sure who did, who prepared it. 21 Q. Not many people had access to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 22 A. No, there were not many people who had access to Sheikh 23 Abdel Rahman. 24 Q. And so, someone had to get that statement from him, in 25 prison, on tape, and then someone had to take that tape and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11016 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 take the quote out of the tape and make the will out of it, 2 right? 3 A. That-- that statement, it came out during an interview. If 4 you look at the same tape there is an interview on the tape, 5 you know, what do you call it, a press interview. The Sheikh 6 had an interview with an Arabic newspaper and it is on the same 7 tape. 8 Q. And that interview came out sometime in 1996, right? 9 A. I'm not sure if it was in '96 or '97. I'm not sure. 10 Q. But if it was an interview with a news organization it 11 would have been prior to the imposition of the Special 12 Administrative Measures, right? 13 A. It was before the SAM, yes. 14 Q. So, it's your testimony that you do not know who took the 15 words spoken by Sheikh Abdel Rahman on that tape and put them 16 in print on the will that you received from CNN? 17 A. I don't know. It's -- I really don't know who put them in 18 print, I don't know. 19 Q. But you are saying you did not do it? 20 A. No, I'm saying I did not do it; no. 21 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 22 Exhibit 1231X, in evidence? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation between 25 yourself and Jeanne King? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11017 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. That call was actually in English, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That was played for the jury? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that occurred on September 24th of 2001, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display page 8 from 9 Government Exhibit 1231X? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. Now, Jeanne King had called you to ask you some questions 12 about when the Special Administrative Measures were imposed, 13 right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And she was asking you what had happened and you said to 16 her that you thought it was in March of '97? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In fact, it was April of '97, right? 19 A. I couldn't remember, so, yes. 20 Q. You were close. 21 And you said: What are you getting at, Jeanne? 22 At line 9. 23 And she says: What I'm getting at, what I'm getting 24 at is that we received word from a rep from our office 25 overseas. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11018 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo, your 2 Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 (Counsel conferring) 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, Mr. Tigar has reminded me 6 that there is a limiting instruction that Jeanne King's 7 statements are not admitted for the truth in this conversation. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, any statements by Ms. King are 10 not received and cannot be considered for the truth of any of 11 the statements made by Ms. King. 12 Q. She tells you that they received from a rep, from our 13 office overseas, okay, and that person has, is the journalist 14 from the, of the French Daily Liberation -- that's the name of 15 the -- 16 And you say: Liberation. 17 And she says: Liber, yes. 18 And at line 20 she says: Okay. And a Journalist 19 named Hamid Mir, M-I-R. 20 And you say: Uh-huh. 21 And she says: Who is the editor in Islamabad. 22 And she says: Spent time with Bin Laden and has 23 written a biography of him. 24 She continued: Okay. Mir said he asked Bin Laden why 25 he ordered killing all Americans when this could involve SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11019 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 killing Muslims and innocent children. 2 And King continued: And Bin Laden reportedly said the 3 decision was based on a fatwah issued from prison by Sheikh 4 Omar Abdel Rahman. 5 And you responded: That's crap. 6 And then she said: Well, let me just finish, okay. 7 And you said: Yeah. 8 And she said: Uh, and he quotes, um, um, Abdel 9 Rahman's fatwah as saying... now this is the fatwah, okay? 10 And she quotes it to you: 11 "Cut all links with the United States, destroy them 12 completely and erase them from the face of the earth. Ruin 13 their economy, burn their companies, reduce their conspiracies 14 to dust, sink their ships, make their planes crash, massacre 15 them in the skies, on earth, and on the water." 16 And you say: Oh God, huh. 17 And she says: And it says then, it says that the text 18 is available in all Quranic schools in Pakistan. 19 And you said: Oh boy. Mmm. 20 And then you said: Hello? 21 And she says: I'm here, I'm here. I'm listening to 22 what you have to say. 23 And then you said: No, I'm just ah... you know, this 24 is... huh! Oh man. I don't know what to say. Just eh -- then 25 you pause -- I don't believe the Sheikh ever said such a thing. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11020 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 You said that to her, right? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. And, when you said that to her you were lying to her, 4 right? 5 A. Yes, I was. 6 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor, please, I believe there was 7 another limiting instruction in that transcript. 8 THE COURT: The transcript refers to Osama Bin Laden 9 and I previously instructed you and reminded you that Osama Bin 10 Laden is not alleged to be a co-conspirator in this case and 11 none of the defendants are charged with having conspired with 12 Osama Bin Laden. Osama Bin Laden is not alleged to be a 13 co-conspirator in this case. 14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I should have said this 15 earlier. This was an English language call, your Honor, in 16 displaying the transcript. 17 THE COURT: Right. The transcript, as you will 18 recall, ladies and gentlemen, is of an English language call 19 and so the transcript is an aid to your listening to the tape. 20 You have heard the tape and if you think you hear 21 some, or heard something differently on the tape from what is 22 in the transcript, it's always your hearing of the recording, 23 which is in evidence, that controls. The transcript is 24 displayed to you as an aid in order to be able to listen to the 25 underlying recording. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11021 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Go ahead. 2 MR. MORVILLO: May I continue, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. Yes. 4 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, I just want to return for a second to the Kill 6 the Jews fatwah. 7 You stated that you made some small changes to that 8 fatwah before it was published, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 11 Exhibit 1183X? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. And this is a transcript, Mr. Sattar, of your October 5th 14 telephone conversation with Rifa'i Taha, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. At line 1 you say: Thank God. 17 And Taha says: Anything new? 18 And you say: No, none at all. 19 And Taha says to you: Have you changed the title of 20 the statement the man issued. 21 And you say: Yes, I changed the title. 22 And you both laugh. 23 The second change came out better. 24 And Taha says: Hah? 25 And you say: The one next to it came out better. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11022 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 And Taha says: It's better than the first. 2 And you say ha. He says: It's better than the first, 3 I mean, this is better. 4 And you say: Yes. 5 You are referring to the changes you made where you 6 testified, on direct examination, where you changed the word to 7 Jews from Zionists? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then Rifa'i Taha says to you: Is there any other 10 change made inside? 11 And you say: On what, you mean a change? 12 And Taha says: Yeah. 13 And you say: No, only a piece inside. I can't. 14 And Taha says: Hah? 15 And you said: There is another piece, a small piece 16 inside, I removed it. 17 And Taha says: That must be the one on your 18 relatives, for sure it is. 19 And you say: Ah! Ah! 20 What you are referring to is the fact that you took 21 out of the fatwah a reference to attacks on the United States 22 and its citizens, right? 23 A. I believe -- yes, it mentioned America or Americans so I 24 took it out, yes. 25 Q. And Rifa'i Taha said, at line 9: It can... but that's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11023 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 fine, we said "and those who..." 2 And what that's a reference to is the fact that the 3 statement still said and those who support them and their 4 advocates, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so, Rifa'i Taha was happy because it still applied, in 7 his mind, in your understanding, to the United States of 8 America, right? 9 A. To the advocates, yes, is what he was saying, yes. 10 Q. And so, you removed from the fatwah a reference to the 11 United States? 12 A. I removed, yes, from the fatwah reference to the United 13 States or Americans. I'm not quite sure what the word was 14 exactly. Either Americans or America. 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, is that what you were referring to last week 16 when you told us that you defend the constitution of the United 17 States? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. MORVILLO: You are quite a patriot. No further 20 questions. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 The last comment is stricken. The jury is instructed 23 to disregard. 24 Ladies and gentlemen, it's quarter after -- actually 25 it is only 10 after. I'm not sure when your lunch is coming. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11024 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 We're going to take a break and we will break for 20 minutes 2 and if -- for about 20 minutes and perhaps a bit more. If your 3 lunch comes, we'll take the luncheon break. 4 So, whether I'm giving you instructions now about this 5 break or the luncheon break, my instructions are still the 6 same. 7 Please, don't talk about this case at all. Please, 8 remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all of the 9 evidence, I have instructed you on the law, and you have gone 10 to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 11 I usually like to get Mr. Fletcher, so -- there is 12 Mr. Fletcher. 13 All right. Have a good break, ladies and gentlemen. 14 I will see you later. 15 All rise, please. 16 Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury room. 17 (Continued on next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11025 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor? 3 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Sattar is excused -- 4 Mr. Sattar may step down. 5 (Witness steps down) 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, at this time, on behalf of 8 Ms. Stewart, I renew motion for severance and motion for 9 mistrial based on counsel's last comment. 10 Mr. Sattar is a person of Egyptian origin, a 11 naturalized citizen of the United States, and a member of the 12 Muslim faith. Earlier in the examination Mr. Morvillo said, 13 "All you needed is a gun and a fatwah." His examination 14 contained repeated references to the Muslim faith and then to 15 have concluded it with that is, points up the difficulty. 16 We have, on behalf of Ms. Stewart, a hard enough row 17 to hoe dealing with her, on behalf of an unpopular defendant 18 and other defense, the comment made by piling on the way that 19 counsel did, I respectfully submit, is improper. We think we 20 have standing to complain about it and we think that the 21 impropriety, which while we appreciate the Court's sua sponte 22 action with respect to the jury -- and I did not rise because I 23 didn't want to draw attention to it -- I think calls for the 24 additional sanction that I have requested. 25 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, I will join in that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11026 4CG5SAT3 1 application. 2 Just so the record is clear, I think Mr. Morvillo 3 certainly knows better than the last comment he threw in there 4 but, quite frankly, tactically I didn't think it was 5 appropriate to stand up in front of the jury, knowing full well 6 that I thought your Honor would handle it appropriately. 7 Nevertheless, given the fact that Mr. Morvillo, 8 throwing that out at the conclusion of his cross-examination I 9 do think, lends itself to an appropriate motion for a mistrial. 10 MR. RUHNKE: And we do join as well, your Honor. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, of course we oppose. We 12 accept the Court's ruling on the motion to strike. 13 Mr. Sattar -- 14 THE COURT: There was no motion to strike. 15 MR. MORVILLO: It was sua sponte. 16 THE COURT: Counsel are quite right, I did it sua 17 sponte. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Right. 19 THE COURT: I struck it and instructed the jury to 20 disregard promptly without an objection being made. 21 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, Mr. Sattar testified at the 22 conclusion of his direct examination last week that he took an 23 oath in 1989 to defend the constitution of the United States 24 and he has always done so. 25 That last series of questions, in the government's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11027 4CG5SAT3 1 view, was fair rebuttal to his concluding testimony. 2 Additionally, he testified on direct examination about 3 his reaction to the September 11th attacks, and I believe your 4 Honor stated at the time that you admitted those conversations 5 that it did open the door to some cross-examination about his 6 opinions, his beliefs with respect to that event as it goes to 7 his state of mind with respect to the Count Two and Three 8 conspiracy. 9 And so, with respect to both of those issues, the 10 government submits that the last question and answer was 11 appropriate and the Court's striking of the final comment is 12 the only remedy that's necessary at this point. 13 And certainly a severance is not warranted given the 14 nature of Mr. Sattar's testimony on direct. 15 MR. TIGAR: If Mr. Morvillo is unwilling to do so much 16 as acknowledge the impropriety of his comment then I will add 17 to my motion, should the Court deny the motion for mistrial and 18 severance, a request that your Honor admonish Mr. Morvillo in 19 the presence of the jury with respect to what he did. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I would oppose that, of 21 course. I accepted -- as I stated I accepted the Court's 22 striking the comment immediately. 23 In the heat of the moment I was caught up in the end 24 of the cross-examination. It was a rhetorical comment. I 25 probably shouldn't have said it but I don't think that it's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11028 4CG5SAT3 1 appropriate for the Court to admonish me in front of the jury 2 and I don't think it is appropriate for you to even admonish me 3 not in front of the jury. 4 I accept responsibility for it and I think the record 5 is complete as it stands. 6 THE COURT: Was it planned? 7 MR. MORVILLO: I had, prior to that final line of 8 questioning, considered asking a rhetorical question, at the 9 end, along those lines. 10 THE COURT: Well, I have already stricken the comment 11 and instructed the jury to disregard. I will also tell them 12 that the comment was improper. 13 It's a comment, it's not a question and that is a more 14 than sufficient remedy. 15 As to the other comments that were made in support of 16 a motion for severance or mistrial, first, there is no basis 17 for a motion for severance for all of the reasons that I have 18 previously explained and there is nothing in the substance of 19 the testimony that justifies severance. 20 There was one comment that counsel for Ms. Stewart 21 made that I should just note -- a couple of comments. 22 One is that the defendant labors under some burden for 23 representing unpopular clients. First of all, I don't consider 24 that to be a disadvantage or burden in any way. A lawyer has a 25 right to represent all clients. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11029 4CG5SAT3 1 Second, the defendant has attempted, affirmatively, as 2 I recall through her direct testimony, to put forward the 3 nature of the defendants that the defendant represents. So, 4 that's certainly not a basis to argue that there is some basis 5 for a severance or that the last comment somehow implicates a 6 basis for a mistrial. 7 Second, with respect to the issue of religion, it was 8 the defendant who affirmatively put forward aspects of his 9 religion in the course of his direct examination without 10 objection and testified as some length with respect to that. 11 And so, that doesn't support either severance or 12 mistrial. 13 I should add that I appreciate that Chief Judge 14 Mukasey gave an instruction on religion in the course of his 15 final charge to the jury in the Rahman case. I haven't been 16 asked to consider such an instruction in this case but would 17 consider such an instruction if the parties want me to. 18 His instruction on religion followed immediately on 19 his instruction with respect to speech. 20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, with respect to what I spoke 21 of as the tough row to hoe, I was referring to matters we had 22 briefed, particularly the Horowitz blog that we cited in our 23 motions, and I will leave it at that. That was the theme I was 24 picking up on. And I won't repeat the argument, I made it 25 there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11030 4CG5SAT3 1 With respect to the religion comment, the legal basis 2 for my saying that this sort of comment can be difficult is 3 borne out by the Gross and the Hamilton article that we did 4 cite in our papers, and also by a very recent article in the 5 California Law Review by Professor Muneer Ahmed, my colleague 6 at Washington College of Law, just came out in California Law 7 Review on the way in which ethnic prejudice and religious 8 prejudice in the wake of 9/11 and the Iraq war, and so on, has 9 crept into the legal system. 10 And the statistical or empirical evidence martialled 11 by Professors Gross and Hamilton as well as Professor Ahmed, 12 was what I was talking about. Just to let your Honor know I 13 didn't make the motion out of the air. 14 I will get Professor Ahmed's article, there is a cite 15 to it, over the luncheon break. I just got it in the mail 16 yesterday. 17 THE COURT: Let me then return to the substance of the 18 request. 19 The comment does not justify a mistrial, it does not 20 justify a severance. 21 The issue was put out there by the defendant when he 22 talked about citizenship, the oath that he took, even putting 23 aside what the defendant sought to elicit as a result of the 24 tape relating to the reaction to 9/11. 25 But, in any event, it's a comment, it is not a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11031 4CG5SAT3 1 question, and rhetorical flourishes don't belong in the 2 examination but it is, as I started off by saying, more than 3 sufficient for me, having promptly told the jury that the 4 comment was stricken and they're told to disregard, for me, in 5 addition, to say the comment was improper and I have already 6 instructed you to disregard it. 7 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I -- I understand the 8 comment was inappropriate. I said it was rhetorical. I would 9 volunteer to, in front of the jury, stand up and withdraw the 10 question or the comment and say that it was inappropriate and 11 apologize, if the Court would like me to. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we would certainly oppose 13 that. I mean -- we oppose that. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 The defendants oppose that and I think that that is 16 more than is actually required, though the defendants may think 17 it is less. 18 But, in any event, it is perfectly -- it is more than 19 sufficient and completely curative for me to do exactly what I 20 said I would do and that's what I shall do. 21 Next subject. After the defendant has testified and 22 the government has cross-examined, the other defendants are 23 given the opportunity also to examine. And so, my question is, 24 before redirect is there going to be any examination by any of 25 the other defendants? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11032 4CG5SAT3 1 MR. RUHNKE: Not on behalf of Mohammed Yousry, your 2 Honor. 3 MR. TIGAR: Not on behalf of Ms. Stewart, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Does -- I can't remember whether in the 5 other situations I've called on anyone else to say 'no 6 questions' or whether I have just passed back to redirect. 7 MR. TIGAR: It's an unaccustomed request, your Honor, 8 but I would prefer to remain silent. 9 MR. RUHNKE: We would also prefer that no inquiry be 10 made in front of the jury, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. And how much more time, 12 Mr. Fallick? 13 MR. FALLICK: How much more time for redirect or how 14 much more time do I want -- 15 THE COURT: No, no, how much more time before we 16 begin. 17 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I would ask to break for 18 lunch now. I haven't had a chance to meet with Mr. Sattar at 19 all. 20 THE COURT: Right. 21 MR. FALLICK: So I ask that we break for lunch and I 22 will be ready at 2:00, if that's what your Honor wants. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 Lunch isn't here yet but we can -- I'm sure we will go 25 into the lunch hour, so, okay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11033 4CG5SAT3 1 MR. PAUL: Is your Honor going to give that last 2 instruction to the jury when we come back or are we going to do 3 that -- 4 THE COURT: Yes, I will do it at the next session. 5 I'm not -- 6 MR. PAUL: Okay. 7 THE COURT: I don't see any -- I already gave the jury 8 their instructions for lunch so Mr. Fletcher can simply tell 9 them we're breaking for lunch. 10 MR. PAUL: That's fine. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 (Luncheon recess) 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11034 4CGMSAT4 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 2:15 p.m. 3 (In open court; jury not present) 4 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 5 (Jury present) 6 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It 7 is good to see you all. 8 Ladies and gentlemen, at the conclusion of the morning 9 I struck the last comment by the government and instructed you 10 to disregard it. The comment was improper. As I say, the 11 comment was improper and therefore I repeat and emphasize that 12 the government's statement is stricken and I instruct you to 13 disregard it. 14 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 15 Mr. Fletcher. 16 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're 17 still under oath. 18 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may examine. 20 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. FALLICK: 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall right before we broke for lunch 24 this morning that Mr. Morvillo was asking you questions about a 25 conversation you had on September 24, 2001 with Jeanne King? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11035 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Ms. King is a reporter for Reuters? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall that Mr. Morvillo read to you passages from 5 this transcript, which is 1231X in evidence, where Ms. King was 6 asking you about a fatwah that Sheikh Rahman had issued to tie 7 into what Mr. Bin Laden had said? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you recall your answer was that it was crap? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you knew nothing about that statement of the Sheikh's? 12 A. Yes. I told her that, yes. 13 Q. Do you recall that you told Mr. Morvillo that you had lied 14 to Ms. King? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Why did you lie to Ms. King? 17 A. Why did I lie to Ms. King? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. That was September 24, 15 days to the exact to September 11 20 where at the time we hear the news and saying 7,000 Americans 21 dead or injured. And Jeanne King -- what Jeanne King want to 22 do, she want to tie the Sheikh to this. I did not believe that 23 the Sheikh has anything to do with this. The man that I told 24 you that I admired is somebody is trying to connect him to the 25 worst acts of terrorism that I ever seen in my life. And it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11036 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 was just, you know -- I said -- I tried to just, I don't know 2 anything about it out of denial, fear. It was just a reaction 3 to, no, he did not do that. I didn't want to believe that this 4 is -- in these words that he said, all the way back then has 5 anything to do with what we saw on September 11. 6 Q. Do you also recall that on Monday Mr. Morvillo asked you 7 questions about the Sheikh's goal and the Islamic Group's goal 8 in establishing an Islamic state or government in Egypt? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you believe that establishment of an Islamic state in 11 Egypt is inconsistent with democratic principles? 12 A. No, I don't believe it is inconsistent with democratic 13 principles. 14 Q. What do you believe? 15 A. If it is -- at least the democracy that I know it and Islam 16 that I know it of my understanding of Islam, if democracy is to 17 express, to be free, to express your opinion, to choose your 18 government, to respect minorities' rights, so I believe this is 19 consistent with Islam as I know it. 20 Q. Do you recall that Mr. Morvillo showed -- displayed to you 21 and the jury an exhibit concerning a list of inmates that you 22 had sent money to? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 25 Government Exhibit 803 in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11037 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Now, is this the -- 3 THE COURT: By the way, it is not clear to me the last 4 couple of questions and answers, if you could just look at the 5 transcript. 6 Q. The list of inmates that you sent money to is reflected in 7 Government Exhibit 803? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Prior to the Sheikh's trial, did you know these inmates 10 personally? 11 A. Not all of them. I know maybe one or two of them, yes. 12 Q. And why did you send them money? 13 A. Why did I send them money? First, I was working on the 14 Sheikh's case and I got to meet those people. I met the 15 lawyers. I know their information. They deserve, you know, 16 charity. People who are in prison, just in general as an 17 Islamic rule, that they deserve charity. So I know, I have the 18 addresses of those people. And I have their information. So 19 it was easier for me to do that. I mean, I was on the board of 20 director of my mosque. Many people know me in my community 21 that I am an activist and I know many people. So people come 22 to me, they give me charity, you know, to give to the poor. 23 And those people are -- have no income whatsoever. So they 24 deserve -- they fall into this category that they are deserving 25 what we call Zakah. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11038 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. When would you send these people money? 2 A. Zakah is given out on occasion in Islam. It is supposed to 3 be given out once a year during the month of Ramadan and the 4 other holiday. It is, you know, to give to the people to share 5 the holiday with you. 6 Q. How much money would you send? 7 A. I will send probably $50 to each one. It depends on how 8 much I got, but I don't believe -- the only one who was getting 9 more money was the Sheikh because it was not only Zakah for 10 him. It was other people who give money to him, per se. 11 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I would ask the government 12 to put up on the screen, if they could, Government Exhibit 800 13 in evidence. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, before I go to Government 16 Exhibit 800, I would like to go back to one question I asked 17 Mr. Sattar. 18 Q. Do you believe -- I may have heard you wrong -- that the 19 establishment of an Islamic state in Egypt is consistent with 20 democratic principles? 21 A. It is consistent with Islamic principles, yes. 22 MR. FALLICK: I would now ask your Honor that 23 Government Exhibit 800 be placed on the screen. 24 Q. Do you recall that on cross-examination Mr. Morvillo first 25 asked you about the amount of telephone calls that you were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11039 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 involved in between 1998 and 2001? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you recall that he asked you how much these calls cost 4 you? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what was your answer -- how much did these calls cost 7 you? 8 A. Through the years? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. A few thousand dollars, yes. 11 Q. Is that a total amount or for each year? 12 A. No. This is a total amount. My phone bill, you know, even 13 before I used to call those people, was high to begin with, 14 because I call Egypt all the time. I speak to my family all 15 the time, so my phone bill is usually high. It started to get 16 a little higher when I was connecting those people. 17 Q. And where did the money come from to pay your phone bill? 18 A. My pocket. 19 Q. And was it difficult for you to make the payments? 20 A. It was, yes, it was very difficult. I was late on my 21 payments. I was -- I had -- as Ms. Baker showed, a phone bill 22 was a thousand dollars phone bill. And I believe this phone 23 bill was like two or three months that I was behind already for 24 two or three months. I couldn't pay the phone bill. 25 Q. Were you supporting your family at this time and your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11040 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 children? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Why did you do it? 4 A. As what I said before, I said all along, I felt it was my 5 duty as a Muslim to help other Muslims. I have not done it for 6 any other reasons except for that feeling that I thought I 7 might be able to help those people to do something good in 8 Egypt. 9 Q. If you look at Government Exhibit 800, you see that there 10 is an arrow on only one way from Afghanistan to yourself in New 11 York City? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is your understanding of why the arrow was only going 14 that way? 15 A. Because the call was always coming from Afghanistan. It 16 was never a call going there. I did not have a number for 17 Yunis or Rifa'i Taha. I didn't have numbers for them. Even on 18 the fax, the way when the government -- there was something I'm 19 preparing the fax to send for them. I never dialed a number. 20 I will pick up my fax receiver and talk to whoever on the 21 phone, and he will either send me any statement or he will, as 22 what we say, pull it from my telephone number. 23 Q. During the course of this case did you learn that your 24 telephone calls had been overheard and intercepted by the 25 government? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11041 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 A. During the course of this case? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Of course, yes. 4 Q. Did you also learn that all of your faxes and e-mails had 5 been intercepted by the government? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do you recall for what period of time that the 8 government was intercepting your telephone calls, faxes, and 9 e-mails? 10 A. I know it is from 1995 until I was arrested in 2002, April 11 2002. 12 Q. Do you know for at least an 18-month period or so that the 13 government was not listening to your phone calls? 14 A. I know it stopped for a short period of time. 15 Q. Do you know how many phone calls the government intercepted 16 of yours? 17 A. I think about 85,000, 88,000. 18 Q. Do you know how many faxes and e-mails they intercepted? 19 A. Probably, thousands. 20 Q. And during the course of this case do you know how many 21 transcripts and audio recordings the government introduced at 22 trial? 23 A. How many? 24 Q. How many? 25 A. About -- the transcripts, about half a million pages. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11042 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. My question is, how many transcripts number -- 2 A. 200 transcripts, probably, of the phone calls, 225. 3 Q. Would that be for every 375 telephone calls that you made, 4 they introduced one transcript or one audio file? 5 A. Yes. This probably would be right. 6 MR. FALLICK: Thank you for use of Government's 7 Exhibit 800. 8 Q. Mr. Morvillo asked you on cross-examination about whether 9 you were present on the day the Sheikh was arrested? 10 A. Whether I was? 11 Q. Present on the day the Sheikh was arrested. 12 A. Yes, I was. 13 Q. Were you present? 14 A. Yes, I was. 15 Q. Do you recall telling Mr. Morvillo that you accompanied the 16 Sheikh to Otisville after he was arrested? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, Otisville is about how far away from here? 19 A. I'm not quite sure in mileage, but it is about two hours, 20 two and a half hours. 21 Q. Otisville -- there is a prison in Otisville, is that 22 correct? 23 A. There is a prison, yes. It is in upstate New York. 24 Q. That's where the Sheikh was being detained? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11043 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. And how did you get up to Otisville? 2 A. Well, I was -- I actually know -- it is not -- I 3 accompanied the Sheikh as a translator to Michael Warren. He 4 was a lawyer. He was representing him during -- at that day. 5 So I went with him with the Sheikh. We rode in the government 6 vehicle. It was an immigration van. It was two immigration 7 officers. 8 Q. Returning from Otisville you also rode back in the 9 government van? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And government agents were with you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Who drove, by the way, on the way back? 14 A. I did and Michael Warren did. The officers were so tired, 15 we got back at around 2:00 in the morning. So -- 16 Q. During cross-examination Mr. Morvillo asked you about some 17 of the Sheikh's sermons, speeches, and lectures. Do you recall 18 that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know for what years the sermons, speeches, and 21 lectures were given which were introduced in evidence at this 22 trial? 23 A. There was -- between 1990 and 1993. 24 Q. And do you recall that at times you would answer Mr. 25 Morvillo about an explanation of either the sermon or speech or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11044 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 lecture that was being taken out of context or that words were 2 being isolated? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What was your understanding of the context of all these 5 speeches and lectures and sermons that the government 6 introduced in evidence at this trial? 7 A. As what I said, you cannot understand the Sheikh's lectures 8 or sermons without looking at the context of events that was 9 taking place at the time and of context of Islamic principles 10 and Islamic jurisprudence, also some Quranic terms. You have 11 to have in mind also to really understand -- it is like any 12 other religion. You cannot just, you know, understand what the 13 catholics are saying or why they are doing some of the things 14 they do without understanding the whole background. 15 Q. Did you always agree with what the Sheikh said or preached? 16 A. No. I always said the Sheikh is a human being. He is 17 subject to errors. 18 Q. What was it that you believed in about the Sheikh? 19 A. I believed he was trying to do -- to help the people in 20 Egypt, actually. This was -- I always believed before he come 21 here that was his main thing. He was concentrating mainly on 22 Egypt. 23 Q. Did you want the Sheikh to be returned to Egypt? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Why? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11045 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 A. It will be easier for him there, even though there is a bad 2 record of abuses and stuff. But at least he will have some 3 people that he can see. He will be able to communicate with 4 his family. He will be able to speak with some people that he 5 can identify with or relate to. They will speak to him in the 6 same language. He will not just, you know, as we say, 7 totally -- just thrown in a cell with no one that he can 8 communicate with or talk to. 9 Q. Do you recall that Mr. Morvillo also asked you about a 10 letter or an e-mail you received in January 1999 from Gamal 11 Sultan and Kamal Habib about his opinion -- about the Sheikh's 12 opinion concerning the formation of a political party? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you asked the Sheikh to comment about that in a letter 15 you sent to him in March of '99? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That was a prison visit in March of 1999? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall that the Sheikh was not in favor of the 20 formation of a political party? 21 A. He just rejected it totally, yes. 22 Q. I believe you testified on direct examination that your 23 position was different than the Sheikh's in that regard? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Sultan and Mr. Habib form a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11046 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 political party? 2 A. Yes, they did. Yes, they did form a political party, even 3 though it is not recognized by the Egyptian government. But it 4 is in existence in Egypt, yes. 5 Q. They formed a party despite the Sheikh's opinion? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you recall when they formed that political party? 8 A. I believe that was in 2000 or 2001. 9 Q. Do you recall that the same March 1999 prison visit, the 10 Sheikh said that no new charter could be drafted without his 11 approval? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And he is talking about the charter of the Islamic Group? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. To your knowledge, did the Islamic Group change its 16 charter? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When was that? 19 A. That was -- I believe it was in 2001. 20 Q. How did you learn of that? 21 A. It was published -- I am not sure if it was in 2001 or 22 early 2002, before my arrest. It was published in the 23 newspapers. As a matter of fact, it is in circulation now. I 24 note it is in circulation now in Egypt. It is published by the 25 Egyptian government and it is in circulation in Egypt. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11047 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. Do you recall that during your cross-examination Mr. 2 Morvillo also displayed to the jurors telephone calls where you 3 discussed your understanding of the SAMs regulations? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And, first, did you ever sign the SAMs affidavit? 6 A. No, I didn't. 7 Q. Did anyone ever ask you to sign one? 8 A. No. 9 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 10 Government Exhibit in evidence 1003X? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a conversation on December 14, 1998. 13 Do you recall that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you recall that Mr. Morvillo in fact asked you specific 16 conversations -- specific questions from this transcript? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Let me show you page 22, lines 15 to 23. And you said: 19 Eh, eh, it is possible that the visit be suspended for anyone, 20 even for the lawyer, without explaining the reasons. There is 21 a section in their law, it is a new section, and according to 22 it, they segregated the Sheikh from eh -- from the world. Any, 23 any person who is convicted for a terrorist crime, he must -- 24 the prison has the right to segregate. He is not allowed to 25 make telephone calls. He is not allowed eh, eh to meet anyone SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11048 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 except upon a judicial order. Even the media interviews have 2 been cut off, according to the law. You have to file for 3 lawsuits. 4 Was that your understanding, your general 5 understanding of the SAMs? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And was your understanding consistent between 1998 and 8 2001? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who, in your opinion, decided what would be permitted or 11 allowable under the SAMs? 12 A. The lawyers. 13 Q. Do you recall testifying on cross-examination concerning 14 the small window that was opened for the SAMs? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was that in Government Exhibit 1005X in evidence? 17 A. I believe it was, yes. 18 Q. Who, in your opinion, decided what could go through that 19 window and what could come out of that window? 20 A. The lawyers. 21 Q. Did you believe that by sending letters to the Sheikh 22 through his lawyers that you were violating the SAMs 23 regulations? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you believe by sending letters to the Sheikh through SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11049 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 his lawyers that you were encouraging or assisting in acts of 2 violence? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you believe that you were acting properly in connection 5 with the SAMs? 6 A. I did. I was acting -- I believe that I was acting 7 properly, yes. 8 Q. Do you recall that on cross-examination Mr. Morvillo asked 9 you about certain statements that you allegedly made to Emad 10 Salem? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who is Emad Salem? 13 A. Emad Salem was an ex-Egyptian military officer. He come to 14 the United States, worked as an FBI informant, was paid by the 15 FBI for so many years, and then was fired by the FBI and then 16 was rehired after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. 17 Q. And he testified against the Sheikh at his trial? 18 A. He did testify against the Sheikh at his trial. 19 Q. Do you recall telling Mr. Morvillo that you believed that 20 Mr. Salem was tape-recording all of your conversations? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What made you believe that all your conversations with him 23 were being tape-recorded? 24 A. He testified to that. It came during the Sheikh's trial. 25 He testified that he was tape-recording me. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11050 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. And were you charged with any crime in connection with 2 these tape recordings? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you ever been charged with a crime other than in this 5 case? 6 A. I have never been -- I have been in the United States for 7 22 years. I have not even had a moving violation. I have not 8 been charged with anything. 9 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 10 LS, Lynne Stewart, 406 exhibit in evidence? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall that LS-406 in evidence is an 13 article published in the Wall Street Journal on September 22, 14 1995? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. FALLICK: May I display, your Honor, page 2 of 17 that article? 18 A. I couldn't hear you, Mr. Fallick. Can you say it again. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick is asking for permission to 20 display the article. Yes. 21 MR. FALLICK: May I display page 2, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I ask Mr. Paul to help 24 me? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11051 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. The paragraph in this article says: On the witness stand, 2 Mr. Salem was a disaster for the prosecution. In eight weeks 3 of testimony, he confessed to having lied under oath in a 4 previous trial -- 5 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: The article was admitted for the state of 7 mind of Ms. Stewart. 8 MR. MORVILLO: It has not been established that 9 Mr. Sattar ever saw this article, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 Q. Mr. Sattar, did you see this article? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you see it when it was published in the Wall Street 14 Journal? 15 A. I am not sure if I seen it when it was published in the 16 Wall Street Journal. 17 Q. When was the first time you saw this article? 18 A. I am not quite sure when was the first time, either here or 19 I seen it before. 20 Q. Do you recall reading this article? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I continue with that 23 paragraph? 24 MR. MORVILLO: We still have an objection. 25 THE COURT: No. Sustained. We can come back to it at SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11052 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 the break. 2 The article is admitted for the knowledge, intent, 3 state of mind for another witness, not this witness and not for 4 the truth of what was said in the article, and there is no 5 foundation as to when this witness saw the article or what the 6 state of mind was that was relevant. We can come back to it at 7 the break. 8 Q. After Mr. Salem testified at the Sheikh's trial, did you 9 continue to work at the post office? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. And same position that you had before? 12 A. Same thing, same duties, same trips. I was doing 13 everything that I did since 1988. 14 Q. Do you recall that Mr. Morvillo asked you questions about a 15 conversation you had on November 14, 1999, which is Government 16 Exhibit 1044X in evidence? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display that to 19 Mr. Sattar and the jury? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Q. This is a conversation on November 14, 1999? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And who is the conversation between? 24 A. It is between me and Sa'ad Hasaballah. 25 Q. And who is he? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11053 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 A. Sa'ad Hasaballah is one of the Sheikh's lawyers in Egypt. 2 Q. Do you recall during Mr. Morvillo's cross-examination that 3 you asked to see the whole transcript? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you recall that his response was, your lawyer can do 6 that on redirect? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you now read the whole transcript? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Do you recall that this transcript concerns the peace 11 initiative? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Let me first refer you to page 11, lines 11 through 22. 14 Line 11 you say: Yes. The situation of our brother Rifa'i. 15 Who are you referring to there? 16 A. You're reading line 11? Line 13, I believe? 17 Q. Line 13, yes. Who are you referring to there? 18 A. I'm referring to Rifa'i Taha. 19 Q. On line 15 you say: Is not formed out of nothing, I mean, 20 his situation is not formed out of nothing. Line 18 you go on 21 to say: The man says, now our hands are off everything. Okay. 22 At line 20 you say: At least, leave for us the word. And Mr. 23 Hasaballah says the Da'wa. And you say: So we can eh -- we 24 would not be completely dead. 25 What were you referring to in those passages? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11054 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 A. I am referring to Rifa'i Taha's position or what his point 2 of view. I'm saying that's what he is saying. He is saying 3 the hands are completely off now. There is nothing going on in 4 Egypt. At least, you know, leave the talk, the preaching, the 5 word, to speak out. So he is telling that to the people in 6 prison, just let the people speak out or let him speak out. 7 Q. Let me refer you to page 23, lines 5 to 8 when you said: 8 They were sent to Abu Yasir. He said: Review the issues with 9 each other, meaning among the brothers concerning, bracket, 10 stuttering this issue. If it is good to keep things the way 11 they are, it is all up to you from beginning to end. 12 What were you referring to in that passage? 13 A. I am referring to the September 1999 visit by Ramsey Clark 14 and the letter that came out from Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman to 15 Rifa'i Taha and people saying about the peace initiative. It 16 is completely up to them. If it is good to keep it, keep it. 17 If it is no good, it is all up to them. 18 Q. On page 24, the first two lines: If it is good to keep it, 19 if it is beneficial to keep it, let it be kept. If it is 20 beneficial to cancel it, cancel it. 21 What are you referring to when you say cancel it? 22 A. The peace initiative. 23 Q. The Sheikh never canceled the peace initiative? 24 A. No, he did not. 25 Q. Let me refer you to page 19, lines 9 through 11. You say: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11055 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Exactly. Our brothers who negotiate and talk to officials 2 would say, you see? See these words? Because these words show 3 that one of the heavyweight people is losing patience. What 4 were you referring to in that passage? 5 A. I am referring to being one of the heavyweight people 6 losing patience. This refers to Rifa'i Taha. So I'm actually 7 saying here that the people who negotiate with the government 8 in Egypt can use Rifa'i Taha and say that to the Egyptian 9 government to get some benefits from them. 10 Q. And why would the Egyptian government negotiate knowing 11 that Rifa'i Taha was on the other side? 12 A. I'm sorry? 13 Q. Why would the Egyptian government negotiate knowing that 14 Mr. Taha was on the other side? 15 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 17 Q. What was it about Mr. Taha, in your opinion, that you 18 believed would force the Egyptian government to negotiate? 19 A. The Egyptian government knows who Rifa'i Taha is, as what I 20 said before. He led the bloody period between the Egyptian 21 government and the Islamic Group. So they know who he is. 22 They know what -- they know that he is just -- he is tough. 23 They know that he could do, you know, things, you know -- 24 Q. Let me refer you to line 17 to 20 where you say: The man 25 is committed. He will not separate himself from the people. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11056 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 However, we can't exert on him all these pressures, especially, 2 especially because the man we have here is also disappointed 3 with the situation as a whole. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What were you referring to there? 6 A. I'm referring to Rifa'i Taha. I am saying Rifa'i Taha is 7 committed to the peace initiative. He is not going to do 8 anything, from what I understood from my talking to him and 9 connecting him to other people. I am saying he is not going to 10 do anything, but do not put too much pressure -- at this time 11 they were trying to shut him up completely. You can't keep 12 putting pressure on the guy to shut him up. It is no good. 13 Especially, too, the Sheikh is disappointed with the results, 14 also. 15 Q. For each prison visit -- 16 THE COURT: Before you go on to another subject, why 17 don't we take a stretch break. It has been about 45 minutes. 18 (Pause) 19 Q. For each of the prison visits did you send a letter to the 20 Sheikh? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And was each letter in the same format? 23 A. Each letter is what I said, yes, it was in the same format, 24 hello, how are you, how are things, news from here, news from 25 there and, you know, it was almost the same. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11057 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. And do you recall for each letter if Taha asked you to 2 convey the communication to the Sheikh? 3 A. Yes. Since 1998, when I start to, you know -- when he 4 start to call me, yes, every time that there is a visit and he 5 know about it, he will ask me to say something to the Sheikh, 6 yes. 7 Q. And was each of Taha's requests about a particular subject 8 matter? 9 A. It was only one subject matter. 10 Q. What was that subject matter? 11 A. It was a peace initiative, it was how the people 12 complaining about what the people are trying to do to him. He 13 does not do anything except now he just speak out, but still 14 they don't like it. It was that in that format all the time. 15 Q. Do you know if the communications that Taha asked you to 16 send to the Sheikh were different in content from what the 17 Sheikh was hearing about a newspaper articles that were read to 18 him? 19 A. This period of time there was nothing secret about the 20 Islamic Group. The conflicts, the two sides give a statement 21 to the newspaper. The other side is giving a statement to the 22 newspapers. So everything was published in the newspaper. 23 There was no secrets. 24 Q. Were Taha's communications to the Sheikh and your letters 25 different than the contents of these newspaper articles? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11058 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 A. It was almost, you know, like the same. What I read in the 2 newspapers and what Rifa'i Taha or others are saying it is, it 3 is right there. It is published. 4 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 5 and Mr. Sattar Government Exhibit 1062X in evidence? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall 1062X in evidence? It is a 8 conversation that you had with Mustafa Hamza on February 28, 9 2000. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 5, line 7 to 12. At 12 line 7 you said: Lord. You are going there and you tell me, 13 no. I was scared or not scared and this kind of talk. I told 14 him that more than these words are in the newspapers and -- 15 yes -- Hamza says: Yes. And you say: Are read over the 16 phone. Responses to move than this are said over the phone, 17 too. 18 What do you recall those passages were about? 19 A. These passages were about Mr. Jabara's visit to the Sheikh, 20 I believe, in February 2000. 21 Q. Your recollection that the newspaper articles that were 22 read to the Sheikh contained all of what Taha was sending? 23 A. What I'm saying there, that whatever I send to the Sheikh 24 in that letter, it is nothing more than what is published in 25 the newspaper and what is read to the Sheikh on every two times SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11059 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 a week on every phone call. 2 Q. Do you recall that Mr. Morvillo also asked you several 3 questions concerning Taha's book? 4 A. Taha's -- 5 Q. Book. 6 A. Book, yes. 7 Q. First, why did Taha send you a copy of his book? 8 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 10 Q. Did Taha send you a copy of his book? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Why did he send you a copy? 13 MR. MORVILLO: Objection. 14 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 15 Q. What was your understanding of why he sent you a copy of 16 the book? 17 A. My understanding, it was for one reason, for the Sheikh to 18 look at the book and to give his -- his opinion, religious 19 opinion to see what Taha is saying in his book, correct 20 Islamically or not. 21 Q. After you received the book what did you do with it? 22 A. As what I said, I give it to one of the Sheikh's associates 23 and his wife taped it on six tapes. I took the tapes, I gave 24 it to Mr. Jabara, and I asked him to send it to Sheikh Omar 25 Abdel Rahman in prison. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11060 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. Do you recall that Mr. Morvillo also asked you a number of 2 questions about statements and threats made by the Islamic 3 Group after the Sheikh was arrested? 4 A. Statements and threats made by the Islamic Group? 5 Q. After the Sheikh was arrested. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And when these statements were issued did you come to learn 8 of them? 9 A. Did I come -- 10 Q. When the statements and threats were made, did you come to 11 learn them? 12 A. Not every statement. But I come to read some of them in 13 the newspapers through the years. 14 Q. Do you recall what the statements said? 15 A. It was always that the Sheikh should be free and this is 16 strained relationship between the Islamic Group and the 17 government of the USA, the United States will be responsible 18 for, you know, for the imprisonment of the Sheikh, you know, 19 sometimes they go, they will not -- what they are saying, they 20 will not stop the Sheikh is free. They are going to do some 21 attacks, they are going to kidnap people, as what we saw there. 22 There were every kind of threats, they were using it. 23 Q. Did you ever adopt these statements? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you ever support the issuance of these statements? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11061 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you believe that the killing of Americans would secure 3 the release of the Sheikh? 4 A. It would never secure the release of the Sheikh. 5 Q. Did you believe that the kidnapping of Americans would 6 secure the release of the Sheikh? 7 A. No, it would never secure the release of the Sheikh. I 8 know there is a policy of the American government that they 9 will not negotiate under any kind of threats. 10 Q. Were you aware that other individuals and groups also made 11 similar statements and threats? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you ever adopt or support these statements or threats? 14 A. No. 15 Q. What did you believe, if anything, would secure the release 16 of the Sheikh? 17 A. As what I said, I said it in my telephone conversations, I 18 said it to other people, I said it here in this court. Public 19 pressure and the changing of the political situation in Egypt, 20 this is the only thing that will secure the release of the 21 Sheikh, or returning the Sheikh to Egypt. 22 Q. Did you ever think that violence in any form committed by 23 anyone would secure the release of the Sheikh? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you recall testifying this morning about the fatwah? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11062 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And do you recall when the fatwah was written? Do you 3 recall when the fatwah was written? 4 A. It was written in 2000. 5 Q. On October 3 and 4, 2000? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. It was disseminated after October 4, 2000? 8 A. Yes. October 5 or 6, 2000. 9 Q. Was it written after the events that you described this 10 morning and last week concerning Arial Sharon's visit to the 11 Al-Aqsa mosque? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you recall also testifying last week to both your 14 reaction to what happened and your intent in having the fatwah 15 written and disseminated? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Let me direct your attention to -- 18 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 19 and Mr. Sattar the cover page of Government Exhibit 1197X in 20 evidence? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1197X in evidence is a 23 conversation between you and Taha on October 16, 2000. Do you 24 recall that? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11063 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. And do you recall that this conversation took place some 12 2 days after Mr. Al-Sirri placed a fatwah on the internet? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. After this conversation on October 16, 2000, did you ever 5 again discuss the fatwah with anyone? 6 A. I don't think I ever discussed the fatwah with anyone. As 7 I said, it was just me to vent it out, just to cry. And when 8 that period was over or at least finished, the emotional period 9 was over for me, I never discussed it with anyone, and it was 10 just -- that matter finished for me. 11 Q. Yesterday and today Mr. Morvillo -- do you recall Mr. 12 Morvillo asking you questions about transcripts concerning 13 conversations either with Atia or about Atia? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. In the beginning, when you were first speaking to Hani, 16 what was your understanding of why he wanted to speak to Taha 17 or Yunis? 18 A. The first conversation? 19 Q. The first few conversations. 20 A. The first few conversations that I know that somebody in 21 Egypt, he is saying it is his father or somebody in Egypt that 22 he know want to speak to Taha or Yunis. Somebody give him the 23 number. He did not tell me anything except that. Somebody 24 wanted to just speak to them. 25 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11064 4CG5SAT5 Sattar - redirect 1 BY MR. FALLICK:: 2 Q. And did you later learn that his conversations involved 3 Atia? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did you -- what was your understanding of why Atia or 6 Hani for Atia wanted to speak to Yunis? 7 A. For Hani for? 8 Q. What was your understanding of why Atia, himself, or Hani, 9 on behalf of Atia, wanted to speak to either Yunis or Taha? 10 A. He said, you know, on the last conversation that they, you 11 know he -- they were having a hard time, you know, they don't 12 have -- he does not have money, they need some money. 13 This was, you know, at the beginning of the 14 conversations in January and up until April 2000. 15 Q. And after that did you learn -- what did you learn about 16 what Atia wanted? 17 A. I learned that Atia just, you know, he wanted to get out of 18 Egypt, he wants to leave. 19 Q. Why did he want to get out of Egypt? 20 A. You know, he was a fugitive. He is hunted by the Egyptian 21 government. He is wanted by them and he wants to escape, you 22 know, for his life. 23 Q. Did you also learn that he was involved in the massacre at 24 Luxor and other violent acts? 25 A. I know he was involved in violent acts, yes, but Luxor, per SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11065 4CG5SAT5 Sattar - redirect 1 se I did not know. As what I said I learned this, you know, 2 sitting here, or when I put everything together. 3 Q. How would you describe your role in relationship to Atia 4 and Hani? 5 A. How did I? 6 Q. How would you describe your role in relationship to Atia 7 and Hani? 8 A. I was just, you know, a middleman, to connect them to Yunis 9 and Rifa'i Taha. 10 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 11 Government Exhibit 1083X, in evidence? 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Sattar, that Government Exhibit 1083X, 14 in evidence, is a conversation on May 9th, 2000, between you 15 and Taha? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And do you recall that Mr. Morvillo also asked you 18 questions about this transcript? 19 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Fallick, your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 (Counsel conferring) 22 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, Mr. Tigar reminds me that 23 there is a limiting instruction for this transcript. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 Ladies and gentlemen, this transcript and the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11066 4CG5SAT5 Sattar - redirect 1 underlying recording was received only with respect to Counts 2 Two and Three of the indictment and cannot be considered for 3 the truth of any of the matters asserted with respect to 4 Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 5 All right. 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall that Mr. Morvillo also asked you 7 questions concerning this transcript? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 12 of the transcript 10 and line 17, and you say: You know of course I have no voice, 11 I mean, I'm a listener only. 12 What was your understanding of what you were saying 13 there? 14 A. What's going between them it's going between them, I'm just 15 a listener. I don't, you know, I don't get involved in, you 16 know, what they are saying. This is their business, it's not 17 my business. 18 Q. And this was a conversation you had on May 9th, 2000? 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I now display to the 21 jury and Mr. Sattar AS-6-T, in evidence? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall that AS-6-T, in evidence, is a 24 conversation between you and Taha on November 12th, 2000? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11067 4CG5SAT5 Sattar - redirect 1 Q. And did this conversation take place after Atia was killed? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 5 of the transcript. 4 Abu Yasser says: It's not... this one asks you to connect so 5 you connect and he asks you to connect him to this guy and you 6 go ahead and connect him, but you're not an active party. 7 Later on in that same page Abu Yasser says: But 8 you're not a party in this matter. You're not giving your 9 point of view because the people don't know you personally. 10 They only know you through the people that are talking. 11 What is your understanding of what Abu Yasser was 12 saying to these passages? 13 A. He is just telling me that you are nobody, you know, that 14 you are just a connection, that you are just somebody who 15 connect the people together, you're not -- those people don't 16 know who you are. I mean the Islamic Group people. 17 Q. Did you have any belief that by helping Atia in the way you 18 described you were, in any way, conspiring with anyone to kill 19 or kidnap persons in a foreign country? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you believe that by helping Atia and the way you 22 described that you were soliciting Atia or Hani or anyone else 23 in committing a violent crime? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you heard or seen any evidence in this case to connect SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11068 4CG5SAT5 Sattar - redirect 1 the killing of Atia with the American government's wiretapping 2 of your telephone conversations? 3 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a good time 5 for us to take a break. 6 Please remember my continuing instructions, please, 7 not to talk about the case, always remember to keep an open 8 mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I have 9 instructed you on the law and you have gone to the jury room to 10 begin your deliberations. 11 All right, take 10 minutes. All rise, please and 12 follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury room. 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11069 4CG5SAT5 Sattar - redirect 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I think Mr. Morvillo is just 6 trying to resolve the issue with Mr. Fallick. 7 THE COURT: All right, we will take -- 8 MR. FALLICK: That's fine, your Honor. I think we 9 resolved our issue. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Well, it was a good time for us to 11 take a break in any event. 12 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, just so the Court is aware, 13 we think, from a conversation with Mr. Fallick, that he may 14 have 10 minutes or so left. We probably would be able to 15 finish our rebuttal case within the remainder of the day. I 16 wanted to let the Court know that in terms of schedule for the 17 day. 18 THE COURT: All right. Okay. See you shortly. 19 (Recess) 20 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 21 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, in light of Mr. Barkow's 22 announcement that we could finish today we are going to 23 stipulate on the foundation of that tape of Ms. Stewart's 24 conversation so that Agent Sorrells doesn't have to get on the 25 stand. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11070 4CG5SAT5 Sattar - redirect 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, Mr. Yousry is on his way 2 back. 3 (Pause) 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, Mr. Yousry now back. 5 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 6 (Witness resumes the stand) 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11071 4CG5SAT5 Sattar - redirect 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 All right, Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 4 Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 6 you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 9 BY MR. FALLICK:: 10 Q. In terms of all of the evidence that has been admitted in 11 this case, what were you trying to achieve? 12 A. Help the Sheikh. Help the people in Egypt. 13 Q. For either goal did you ever advocate the use of violence? 14 A. I never advocated the use of violence, except in 15 self-defense as I stated all my life. 16 Q. In your opinion, who is the best person to determine what 17 you meant when you said something referred to in the 18 transcripts and evidence in this case? 19 A. Me. It's my telephone conversations, it's my voice, it's 20 my understanding. I am the one who said those words. 21 Q. In your opinion, did you believe that the knowledge that 22 you gathered over time concerning Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, in 23 any way, brought about a risk of violence to any person? 24 A. No. 25 Q. In your opinion, did you believe that the knowledge you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11072 4CG5SAT5 Sattar - redirect 1 gathered over time concerning the Islamic Group, in any way, 2 brought a risk of violence to any person? 3 A. No. 4 Q. In your opinion, did you believe that the knowledge you 5 gathered over time concerning Taha, in any way, brought about a 6 risk of violence to anyone? 7 A. No. 8 Q. In your opinion, did you believe that the knowledge you 9 gathered over time concerning Atia, in any way, brought about a 10 risk of violence to any person? 11 A. I never thought that knowledge or knowing things, or 12 knowing about things is a crime in America. 13 MR. FALLICK: I have no further questions, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. MORVILLO: I have no questions, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Mr. Sattar is excused. You may step down. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 (Witness steps down) 20 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, on behalf of Ahmed Abdel 21 Sattar, the defense rests. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Sattar has now rested. That 24 completes the portion of the trial in which I explained to you 25 that the defendants would be given the opportunity to present SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11073 4CG5SAT5 1 witnesses and the government would be given the opportunity to 2 cross-examine, even though, as I have told you, the defendants 3 were under absolutely no obligation to call any witnesses or 4 present any evidence, but they were given the opportunity to do 5 that if they chose. That ends that portion of the trial. 6 I'm going to take a very brief break at this point and 7 I ask you, please, please to follow my continuing instructions. 8 Please, don't talk about this case at all and always remember 9 to keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, 10 I have instructed you on the law and you have gone to the jury 11 room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and justice to the 12 parties requires that you do that. 13 See you shortly. 14 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the 15 jury room. 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11074 4CG5SAT5 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Mr. Sattar has rested, are there any applications at 4 this point? 5 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we assume there is going to 6 be a rebuttal case, therefore at the end of all the evidence we 7 would make Rule 29 applications. 8 THE COURT: All right. Is the government ready then 9 to proceed? 10 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. All right, let's bring in the jury. 12 And should I call on you, Ms. Baker? 13 MS. BAKER: Actually, I'm going to be presenting part 14 of the rebuttal case, Mr. Dember is going to be presenting the 15 other part, and he is going to begin. 16 THE COURT: Sorry? 17 MS. BAKER: Mr. Dember is going to begin. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, I know we only have an hour to 20 go, is there any way we can lower the temperature? 21 THE COURT: Absolutely. 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11075 4CG5SAT5 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, I explained, in explaining the 4 phases of the trial to you at the outset, I explained to you 5 that after the defendants had rested that I may allow the 6 government to present some additional evidence. 7 So, we are at that portion of the trial now. 8 All right. Mr. Dember? 9 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time the government 10 offers into evidence Government's Exhibits 375 and 376. 11 THE COURT: All right. No objections. Government's 12 Exhibits 375 and 376, admitted in evidence. 13 (Government's Exhibits 375 and 376 received in 14 evidence) 15 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, with your permission, may I 16 show for the jury the front page of Exhibit 375 and read the 17 title and the date? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the title of the exhibit is 20 Notification to Inmate Omar Abdel Rahman, number 34892-054, of 21 Special Restrictions Authorized by 28 CFR Section 501.3. And 22 it is dated August 4th, 1997. 23 May I display for the jury and read the title and date 24 for Government Exhibit 376? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11076 4CG5SAT5 1 MR. DEMBER: The title of the document, your Honor, is 2 Notification to Inmate Omar Abdel Rahman, number 34892-054, of 3 Special Restrictions Authorized by 28 CFR Section 501.3. And 4 the document is dated December 1, 1997. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, at this time the government 6 seeks an oral stipulation which we have discussed with defense 7 counsel. It's my understanding that Mr. Tigar is prepared to 8 state the stipulation. 9 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. 10 With respect to Government Exhibit 1275, which is a 11 telephone conversation on the 28th of August, 2000, between 12 Mr. Yousry and Ms. Stewart, we stipulate that this conversation 13 was recorded and the recording that the jury is to hear was 14 prepared from the MO disk by FBI Agent Sorrells using the same 15 procedures that Agent Kerns has repeatedly testified to with 16 respect to the other Raytheon system recordings that have been 17 received in evidence. 18 And it is our intention that by this stipulation we 19 have then fully established the foundation that would otherwise 20 require live testimony. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. TIGAR: And if that's satisfactory to the 23 government? 24 MS. BAKER: Yes. Thank you. 25 MR. TIGAR: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11077 4CG5SAT5 1 MS. BAKER: Based on that stipulation, the government 2 offers Government Exhibit 1275, which is the audio file, and it 3 is contained on a CD which is marked Government Exhibit 1275. 4 THE COURT: All right, Government Exhibit 1275 5 received in evidence, no objections. 6 (Government's Exhibit 1275 received in evidence) 7 MR. TIGAR: I also note, I think there is another 8 stipulation that we have agreed to certain redactions of 9 irrelevant matter. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, at this time the government 12 offers a written stipulation which addresses the point that 13 Mr. Tigar just raised, and the written stipulation is marked as 14 Government Exhibit 1322. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 The stipulation, Government Exhibit 1322, is received 17 in evidence. 18 (Government's Exhibit 1322 received in evidence) 19 MS. BAKER: May I display it and read it to the jury? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MS. BAKER: The parties hereby stipulate and agree 22 that, if re-called as a witness at trial, Gerard Francisco, who 23 works as a legal administration specialist for the United 24 States Attorney's office, would testify as follows: 25 1. He prepared Government Exhibit 1275A, which is a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11078 4CG5SAT5 1 CD containing excerpts of the recorded telephone call that is 2 on the CD in evidence as Government Exhibit 1275. 3 2. To excerpt the call, he started with Government 4 Exhibit 1275, which is the CD, prepared by FBI Special Agent 5 Stephen Sorrells, containing the audio file of the call in .voc 6 format. 7 3. Using a computer and a program that is capable of 8 making exact copies of .voc files, Mr. Francisco made exact 9 copies in .voc format, of specified portions of Government 10 Exhibit 1275 onto the CD marked as Government Exhibit 1275A. 11 And that is agreed to and stipulated and signed by all 12 counsel and the parties. 13 Your Honor, based on that stipulation, the government 14 offers Government Exhibit 1275A, which is the excerpted audio 15 file contained on the CD marked as Government Exhibit 1275A. 16 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 1275A, received in 17 evidence. 18 (Government's Exhibit 1275A received in evidence) 19 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time the government 20 offers into evidence Government Exhibit 554X, which is a 21 videotape of a conversation. 22 THE COURT: All right. No objections. Government 23 Exhibit 554X, received in evidence. 24 (Government's Exhibit 554X received in evidence) 25 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Dember? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11079 4CG5SAT5 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 (Counsel conferring) 3 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, before we introduce the video 4 itself I just would like to inform the Court that this is an 5 English language conversation, there is a transcript which is 6 available as an aid, obviously because it is English language 7 only as an aid. But, for purposes of the presentation today, 8 it's our intention just to play the video itself and just, 9 having consulted with counsel, we would just like to remind the 10 jury that it is an interview of Ms. Stewart by Greta Van 11 Susteren which was referred to during the examination of 12 Ms. Stewart by both the defense and the prosecution. 13 May we play the video at this time? 14 THE COURT: Yes. You say that there is a transcript 15 available as an aid? 16 MR. DEMBER: There is, your Honor, but for purposes of 17 our presentation we just request the jury, that they view the 18 video itself. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DEMBER: And would your Honor remind the jury to 21 put their headsets on? 22 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, if you would 23 put your headsets on, dot forward, turn them on. 24 (Whereupon, Government Exhibit 554X, in evidence, was 25 played for the jury) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11080 4CG5SAT5 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, your Honor -- 2 THE COURT: Hold on. 3 MS. BAKER: I saw at least one hand in the jury box. 4 THE COURT: Thank you. I see at least one, is there 5 anyone else other than juror number 4? No. 6 So, you can begin again. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we start from the 8 beginning again? 9 THE COURT: Yes. Yes. 10 (Whereupon, Government Exhibit 554X, in evidence, was 11 played for the jury) 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I confer briefly with 14 Mr. Dember? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 (Counsel conferring) 17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, request an instruction that 18 Ms. Van Susteren's comments are not received for the truth. 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Ladies and gentlemen, the comments by Ms. Van Susteren 21 are not received for the truth of any statements by Ms. Van 22 Susteren. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the government would now ask 24 permission to play for the jury the audio file now in evidence 25 as Government Exhibit 1275A, that's the redacted audio file. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11081 4CG5SAT5 1 It is an English language call. We therefore ask permission to 2 simultaneously display, as an aid to the jury, Government 3 Exhibit 1275X, which is the corresponding transcript. 4 And we would offer Government Exhibit 1275X as an aid 5 to the jury. 6 THE COURT: All right. 1275X received as an aid to 7 the jury and if it is going to be played, ladies and gentlemen, 8 you should put on your head phones. 9 MS. BAKER: This is a call that was on August 28th of 10 2000 at 9:58 a.m. 11 (Whereupon, Government Exhibit 1275A, in evidence, was 12 played and Government Exhibit 1275X, in evidence, was displayed 13 for the jury) 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the government rests. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Ladies and gentlemen, the government has now rested. 18 Let me take just a brief break, ladies and gentlemen, before I 19 let you go home for the day. 20 Please, please remember to follow all of my 21 instructions. Please don't talk about this case at all and 22 always remember to continue to keep an open mind. All right? 23 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher. 24 (Continued on next page) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11082 4CG5SAT5 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. 3 I usually do this at the side bar but since I haven't 4 been having side bars with you, after the government completes 5 its rebuttal case I always ask whether there is anything 6 further before I finally tell the jury that all sides have now 7 rested, the evidence is complete and the next stage is 8 summations. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we have no further evidence 10 to offer. 11 MR. TIGAR: No further evidence on behalf of 12 Ms. Stewart. 13 MR. PAUL: Nothing further on behalf of Mr. Sattar, 14 your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Okay. And if there are any applications 16 or anything, I will hear you after the jury has left for the 17 day. 18 I will tell the jury that they should be back on 19 December 29th at 9:30 as we begin summations. If for any 20 reason there was any change in that, you know, the jury 21 administrator has been able to get ahold of the jurors, so it 22 remains December 29th at 9:30, and that's what I will tell the 23 jurors. 24 Okay. Let's bring in the jury. 25 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11083 4CG5SAT5 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, all parties have rested and that 4 concludes the portion of the trial in which I advised you that 5 the evidence would be presented. So, the evidence is now 6 closed and the next phase of the trial is the summations. 7 I explained to you yesterday that in order not to 8 break up the summations we would start the summations on 9 December the 29th, so it would be December the 29th and 10 December the 30th, that's a Wednesday and a Thursday, and then 11 we would continue on Monday, January 3rd. 12 This is a fairly long break between now and December 13 the 29th. I'm obviously going to wish you a happy holiday in 14 the interim but it is absolutely essential that you follow, 15 very carefully, all of my instructions. 16 As I have explained to you before, I give these 17 instructions with all of the force that my words can convey. 18 Please, do not talk about this case at all. Do not talk about 19 it among yourselves. Do not talk about it when you go home 20 with your family, friends, with anyone. Please, don't talk 21 about this case at all. 22 Second. Please, do not look at or listen to anything 23 to do with the case. If you should see or hear something 24 inadvertently, please simply turn away. Do not look at or 25 listen to anything to do with the case. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11084 4CG5SAT5 1 And, finally, please continue to keep an open mind 2 until I have instructed you on the law and you have gone to the 3 jury room to begin your deliberations. 4 Among other reasons for that is that you have heard 5 the evidence, the lawyers will now be given an opportunity to 6 explain to you what they think the evidence in the case has 7 shown or not shown. And the lawyers' summations, the lawyers' 8 arguments of course are not evidence but they are offered to 9 you to help you understand from the lawyers' perspective what 10 they believe the evidence has shown or not shown. 11 But it's only after I have finally instructed you on 12 the law that you will fully see all of the legal principles 13 that you are to apply to the facts that you, as the jury, find. 14 So, it's very important that you continue to keep an 15 open mind until I have fully instructed you on all of the legal 16 principles that you are to apply to the facts as you find them. 17 You will only have that complete picture after I have finally 18 instructed you on the law. 19 So that's why it's very important to continue to keep 20 an open mind until I have finally instructed you on the law and 21 you have gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations, and 22 that's why I always say that fairness and justice to the 23 parties requires that you do that. 24 So, I have given you the continuing instructions which 25 I've asked you to follow with great care and now I wish you all SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11085 4CG5SAT5 1 a very happy holiday and I look forward, very much, to seeing 2 you on December the 29th at 9:30. 3 Have a good holiday. 4 All rise, please. And please follow Mr. Fletcher, 5 please. 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11086 4CG5SAT5 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. 3 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, pursuant to Rule 29 of the 4 Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, we move for judgment of 5 acquittal on Counts One, Two and Three. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor please, Lynne Stewart moves 8 for judgment of acquittal on Counts One, Four, Five, Six and 9 Seven. All of the counts in which she is named, in case I made 10 a mistake. 11 In that connection, I renew the arguments that I made 12 at the close of the government's evidence with respect to that 13 and I will not repeat them and, particularly, the arguments 14 concerning the element issues on Count Two that I pressed upon 15 the Court at that time and that we have pressed throughout the 16 proceeding. 17 Further, your Honor, we renew all the legal arguments 18 that we made in the pretrial motions that you rejected -- that 19 you ruled on in your opinion of April 20th with respect to 20 defenses that were and were not available. 21 In that motion, in that opinion of April 20th your 22 Honor permitted us to renew our multiplicity motion at the 23 close of all the evidence and I do renew it now making, 24 renewing not only the arguments that we made in our pretrial 25 motions on multiplicity but pointing out that the government's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11087 4CG5SAT5 1 position, as expressed in seeking a bifurcated proceeding. 2 And a special verdict procedure for sentencing, in our 3 view, supports the multiplicity argument because the government 4 has essentially argued that the Count One fraud offense carried 5 the same risks of social harm, if I can put it that way, as the 6 Count Four and Five offenses. That is to say, even though it 7 would be possible under the multiplicity analysis to isolate 8 different elements of Count Four and Five, there is simply no 9 reason why, in terms of multiplying units of alleged 10 criminality, that these counts should have been pleaded 11 separately. 12 The legal framework for that argument is the one we 13 made in our pretrial motions but I did want to add that. 14 Moreover, your Honor, we seek leave to file on Monday 15 a renewal of our motion to strike surplusage from the 16 indictment. I would like the opportunity to go through the 17 various paragraphs of the indictment to see what, if any, of 18 the allegations that we sought to strike as surplusage were not 19 the subject of proof because, as I recall your Honor said in 20 the April 20th opinion that we would have that procedural right 21 when the evidence was closed and I want to make sure that we 22 exercise it intelligently. 23 I'm not -- because the indictment doesn't go to the 24 jury until the very end I'm certainly not asking permission to 25 come back next week, your Honor, in court. I believe that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11088 4CG5SAT5 1 could be ruled on on the papers. We will simply file a list of 2 our contentions in that respect but, of course, we would attend 3 upon the Court if the Court wanted to hear from us on that. I 4 simply ask to have leave until Monday so we can file that so we 5 can make sure that we do it completely. 6 Thank you, your Honor. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, on behalf of Mr. Yousry we 8 move as well for judgment of acquittal pursuant to Rule 29 on 9 all counts in which he is named. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the government asks the Court 12 to deny the motions made by each of the three defendants. The 13 government respectfully submits that the evidence presented at 14 this trial is more than sufficient to support each of the 15 charges against each of the defendants. 16 The evidence was more than sufficient under the Rule 17 29 standard at the close of the government's case and the 18 evidence that has been presented since then, through the 19 testimony and cross-examination of the defendants and through 20 the government's rebuttal case, only strengthens that notion. 21 The Court is obviously very familiar with the evidence having 22 heard it all at the trial, also having reviewed much of it in 23 the context of various evidentiary motions and, unless the 24 Court has specific questions, I'm not going to attempt to 25 summarize the evidence here and now. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11089 4CG5SAT5 1 I would only say as to a couple of the particular 2 points raised by Mr. Tigar, his arguments that he made 3 previously and now renews relating to what he described as the 4 element issues on Count Two do not, are not based on an 5 accurate recitation of the elements of Count Two, those 6 elements now being clearly set forth in the instructions that 7 the Court has indicated that it will give the jury. 8 (Continued on next page) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11090 4CGMSAT6 1 MS. BAKER: As to the multiplicity argument, the 2 evidence that has been presented at this trial amply proves 3 that for each of the charged conspiracies, that each conspiracy 4 within each count was a single conspiracy as charged, but that 5 the different conspiracies charged in different counts were in 6 fact different from each other with, among other things, 7 different objectives, in some instances different participants, 8 although, obviously, there were overlapping participants of the 9 defendants themselves and in some instances different time 10 frames. So the multiplicity argument that was made pretrial 11 should not afford a basis for any relief at this time. 12 Obviously if there is a motion to strike surplusage that is 13 made, the government will address that at the time. 14 THE COURT: I have one question. In response to the 15 Rule 29 motions at the conclusion of the government's case, the 16 government asked me to reserve until the jury had come in with 17 a verdict because it may or may not obviate any of the motions, 18 not the usual request. But since it was the request and there 19 was no objection to it, I accepted the request to reserve until 20 the jury came in. 21 Then the question is, what sense does it make for me 22 to resolve the Rule 29 motions at the conclusion of all of the 23 evidence when sort of out there is the Rule 29 motion at the 24 conclusion of the government's case which involved some at 25 least legal arguments that the government asked me to reserve SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11091 4CGMSAT6 1 until the jury came in with its verdict? 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, at the time the government's 3 request was motivated by a desire to keep the trial moving 4 forward, and we didn't know whether it would be sufficient or 5 feasible at the moment to provide a very detailed response to 6 some of the arguments that were made, and we didn't know 7 whether the Court wished a very specific or detailed response 8 to some of the arguments that were made. The government 9 obviously believed at the time that it had presented ample 10 evidence to support the charges and that no dismissal of any 11 charge against any defendant would be appropriate. 12 As a procedural matter, given that the motion now is 13 made on a different record in that it is made on a record that 14 includes the defense cases and the government's rebuttal case, 15 I don't believe that whatever your Honor decided to do 16 previously prevents your Honor from denying the motions now, if 17 your Honor were inclined to do so. On the other hand, if in 18 the interest of economy your Honor wishes to deal with all of 19 the motions at one time, including posttrial motions, at a time 20 after the trial, the government does not object to that 21 procedure either. 22 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, to the extent the government 23 is consenting to the Court, reserving to the Court in the 24 exercise of its 29(b) discretion, wishes to do so, Ms. Stewart 25 concurs in that. We would request the Court to reserve for a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11092 4CGMSAT6 1 number of reasons. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke. 3 MR. RUHNKE: We have no objection to your Honor 4 reserving decision. 5 THE COURT: Ms. Stewart went further. My 6 understanding is, her request is that I do that. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the jury is going to reach a 8 decision one of these days. And if unanimity helps things, we 9 request that you defer. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Paul and Mr. Fallick. 11 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, I didn't think you forgot about 12 us, but we join in that request as well. 13 THE COURT: It does appear to me that in the 14 circumstances of this case, having been asked to and having 15 reserved at the conclusion of the government's case at the 16 request that I reserve until after the jury has reached its 17 verdict, it doesn't make any sense to me, frankly, to deal 18 separately with the Rule 29 motions now and leave the other 19 Rule 29 motions there. So I will reserve until after the jury 20 has reached its verdict. 21 There is going to be a motion with respect to 22 surplusage. I would suggest that before you make the motion, 23 the parties -- you at least raise it so that if there is any 24 agreement with respect to any strikes, that can be brought to 25 my attention. If there is not, I'll look at it. To the extent SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11093 4CGMSAT6 1 that I can decide it on the papers, I will. To the extent not, 2 I will invite you back in. 3 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, thank you. I ought to have 4 remembered that what your Honor has now said is the right way. 5 We then would ask leave to give the government our proposal on 6 Monday, give them reasonable time to respond, whatever they 7 think is reasonable, and immediately inform the Court of the 8 results of that. Does that schedule meet the Court's desires, 9 or are we pushing up too close to the holiday? 10 THE COURT: You really are. It would seem to me that 11 I have to resolve this before December 29. And so you really 12 should give the government your proposal by Saturday. 13 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, we could certainly do it 14 by Saturday midday. 15 THE COURT: Is that reasonable? And then to the 16 extent that there is disagreement, the application can be made 17 by Monday and the government's opposition by Tuesday? 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, obviously, we will comply with 19 the schedule that the Court has requested. I am sure it would 20 have been everybody's preference not to have to be working over 21 the weekend, but we will comply with the Court's schedule. 22 THE COURT: I really want to be reasonable and 23 cooperative with all of you without, at the same time, giving 24 me the results of what you've done on December the 24th. You 25 want to tell me -- you want to maybe talk tonight and give me a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11094 4CGMSAT6 1 letter tomorrow? I can't be clearer. All I want, I want the 2 motion in time enough to decide it, and to call you in, if 3 necessary, perhaps, on December the 27th. I'm not hearing a 4 lot of cooperative feedback on this subject. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, Monday is the 20th. And if we 6 were to hear from Ms. Stewart's counsel on Monday, the 20th, 7 assuming that their request relates to a relatively small 8 number of paragraphs and that it is not going to be a renewal 9 of the pretrial requests to strike three-quarters of the 10 indictment, I would expect that we would be able to respond to 11 Ms. Stewart very quickly, and then she would be able to respond 12 to the Court. So even under the schedule initially proposed by 13 Mr. Tigar, I don't think it would end up that the issue would 14 not reach the Court until the 24th, which is Friday. I would 15 hope that it would get to the Court by Wednesday, even with 16 Ms. Stewart getting her initial request to us on Monday. 17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I had hoped that I had been 18 making cooperative noises. But let me make this proposal about 19 this. Relating to surplusage is the law of the case. Your 20 Honor decided this issue in your April 20 opinion and wrote on 21 it. All we were proposing to do is to make a list of 22 sentences, words, paragraphs, and not a very long one either, 23 because the Court set the bar where it set the bar in the April 24 20 opinion. 25 My suggestion, therefore, is that we give that to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11095 4CGMSAT6 1 government by noon on Saturday, that they respond to us by 2 letter, that we submit that to the Court. 3 THE COURT: I'm happy to have you give it to the 4 government on Monday and to me on Tuesday. When you say it is 5 not going to be a very long list -- 6 MR. TIGAR: I understand my credibility has been 7 damaged by recent events on that score, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: The number of objections to the charge 9 were not few. On the other hand, we did get through the charge 10 conference with more expedition than some cases. You can get 11 it to the government on Monday and get it -- get me what's 12 going to be gotten to me, defense submission, government 13 response, by Wednesday at 3:00. 14 The government was going to get back to me. 15 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. On the issue relating to 16 page 123 of the Court's proposed jury instructions, the 17 government has looked back at that instruction and it is the 18 government's request that the Court leave the instruction as 19 the Court originally proposed it, which is exactly the same as 20 is recommended by Judge Sand. 21 THE COURT: Do you think that the way in which I 22 proposed to change it is not correct, or that the way in which 23 I changed it is in any sense an incorrect statement of law? 24 MS. BAKER: No, your Honor. But we also think that 25 the phrase that was in there before was a correct statement of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11096 4CGMSAT6 1 the law, and we believe that that -- we, the government, 2 disagrees with Ms. Stewart about the way that phrase can be 3 interpreted and, therefore, its applicability in this case. 4 And so I don't object to your Honor adding the phrase that 5 you're proposing. I'm asking your Honor not to delete the 6 phrase that's already in there. 7 THE COURT: The only way that I said I should finally 8 change it was to say to change or even that it knew of the 9 misleading or deceptive act, to change that to read: Or that 10 it did not know that the alleged act was misleading or 11 deceptive in order to clarify that this is not a case where 12 there is any argument that the act was not something of which 13 the government was aware. The statement was made to the 14 government, not to a third party. The document was submitted 15 to the government, not a third party. And the commentary to 16 that section in Judge Sand talks about the submission of 17 something to a third party. 18 And I understood why there could be some confusion 19 when it said or it doesn't matter whether the government 20 even -- or even that it knew of the misleading or deceptive 21 act. And that makes -- if you think about that as knowing of 22 the statement or knowing of the document, that doesn't make any 23 sense in the context of this case. 24 So my question was really the question of law, whether 25 there is any suggestion that if I changed it to make it clear, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11097 4CGMSAT6 1 or that it did not know that the alleged act was misleading or 2 deceptive, why that does not satisfy all of the parties' 3 concerns, and why that's not a correct statement of the law. 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't want to repeat myself 5 and somehow I suspect that I am not understanding that phrase 6 where it appears in its context the way the Court is 7 understanding it and the way Ms. Stewart is understanding it. 8 But, to me, that phrase "or even that it knew of the misleading 9 or deceptive act" appearing where it does, after a sentence 10 that says, it is not necessary for the government to prove that 11 the government agency was in fact misled as a result of the 12 defendant's action, and following as it does on the first half 13 of the sentence in which the phrase appears, I interpret it 14 differently than your Honor does, and I believe that it adds 15 value to the instruction and that's why I ask that it remain. 16 I don't dispute that the phrase your Honor proposes is 17 an accurate statement of the law. But as to your Honor's point 18 that there is no issue in this case, there is no dispute that 19 the statement was in fact received by the government, something 20 about Ms. Stewart's objection suggests that there may be some 21 dispute or some argument that Ms. Stewart would seek to make 22 along those lines. I don't know what the support would be for 23 it in the record. I don't particularly see it in the record. 24 But given the nature of her objection and given my different 25 interpretation from your Honor and from Ms. Stewart of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11098 4CGMSAT6 1 phrase, the government prefers that the instruction remain as 2 is. 3 THE COURT: Here there is no -- of course, if an 4 argument is -- I've said this before, that if some argument 5 arises in the course of summations that I have to deal with, I 6 will. But there is no question in this case, as I've heard the 7 evidence, that when all is said and done, Ms. Stewart does not 8 dispute that the affirmations were given to the government. 9 The testimony, in fact, was that the first affirmation was 10 given more than once. And Ms. Stewart testified to having in 11 fact signed it, brought it. If my memory of the evidence is 12 correct, brought it to the prison as a way of gaining access 13 and, in fact, pointed out that it was on the table. Moreover, 14 Ms. Stewart testified, again, if memory serves me correct, 15 that, in fact, she then sent it with the May 26 cover letter to 16 the government and there is also no question that the 17 subsequent affirmation, if memory serves me correct from the 18 testimony, was submitted to the government. 19 Now, sometimes people hang up over things that are not 20 really issues. This came up because of an objection that I 21 understood, which was there seemed to be some inconsistency 22 between this language and the elements of the offense which 23 required that a statement actually be made, or produced or 24 submitted, I can't remember the precise language; and in the 25 context of this case, where there is no intermediary, no third SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11099 4CGMSAT6 1 party to say that it doesn't make a difference whether the 2 government knew of the misleading or deceptive act appears to 3 undercut the concept that the statement must be made or 4 produced or submitted. 5 I realize the sensitivity on both sides that they do 6 not do anything that they believe that they have the legal 7 right to. And people argue with increasing levels of vigor 8 over things which, if you step back a moment, shouldn't make a 9 difference. The way in which I would be inclined to resolve 10 this, I understand the objection that was made that in the 11 context of this case it appears not to be quite right to say 12 that it doesn't make a difference that the government knew of 13 the misleading or deceptive act. The government says it is a 14 correct statement of the law if I change it to say, or that it 15 did not know that the alleged act was misleading or deceptive 16 unless there is going to be some argument along the way that 17 somehow the statement wasn't made or submitted, in which case I 18 would deal with that. 19 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor has accurately summarized our 20 position and I would go further. Your Honor may recall that we 21 asked for a correction of Mr. Francisco's testimony with 22 respect to the date and how it did get to the government and 23 when it got there and how it got there. So our position on 24 this has been consistent from the testimony of the second 25 witness to appear. And, your Honor, we also submit your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11100 4CGMSAT6 1 Honor's characterization of our objection to the initially 2 submitted charge and the reason for it, which we respectfully 3 submit tracks what Judge Sand said is also correct. So that is 4 our position, and we do believe that the striking that language 5 is correct and the Court's change is an accurate statement of 6 the law. 7 THE COURT: I'll make that change. And if there is 8 ever a need for me to make, which I don't foresee, a 9 correction, because of some argument that's made that I don't 10 foresee, I'll deal with it at that time. 11 That then completes the charge also. 12 Anything further? 13 Good afternoon, all. 14 (Adjourned to December 29, 2004 at 9:15 a.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11101 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR 4 Cross By Mr. Morvillo . . . . . . . . . . . 10959 5 Redirect By Mr. Fallick . . . . . . . . . . 11034 6 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 7 Exhibit No. Received 8 375 and 376 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11075 9 1275 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11077 10 1322 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11077 11 1275A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11078 12 554X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11078 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300